#emc-devel | Logs for 2011-01-14

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[01:25:37] <andypugh> Is it possible to print floats with rtapi_print?
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[01:35:51] <jepler> andypugh: in master, yes, sort of
[01:36:07] <jepler> andypugh: you can now use %f formats in rtapi_print_msg, but in dmesg they will show in "hex floating-point format".
[01:36:32] <andypugh> Yes, I noticed that. It was, surprising.
[01:36:45] <jepler> andypugh: there's also a script to translate these to decimal floating-point. I think you run it like this: dmesg | decode_dmesg
[01:37:23] <andypugh> I am not sure it works right either. My thread period was 0xA.EAAE78E88DE28P-15
[01:37:32] <andypugh> Which seems stupidly small.
[01:38:20] <jepler> that's 0.000333 which if it's seconds means about 333us or 3000kHz
[01:38:29] <jepler> er, 3000Hz
[01:38:32] <jepler> 3kHz
[01:39:22] <andypugh> How is that 0.00033?
[01:39:49] <jepler> well, I determined that by running echo 0xA.EAAE78E88DE28P-15 | /usr/src/emc2/scripts/decode_dmesg
[01:39:51] <andypugh> (it's the right number, I just don't get the format)
[01:39:53] <jepler> 0.000333152
[01:40:37] <jepler> since it's binary floating-point, the exponent -15 is 2^-15, not 10^-15 (and it's not 16^-15 either, even though the mantissa is written in hex)
[01:40:57] <andypugh> To my way of thinking P-15 means E-21 so it's a truly tiny number
[01:41:07] <andypugh> Ah, OK
[01:41:15] <jepler> 0xA.E... is 10+15/16
[01:41:34] <PCW> Is there some magic to get the feedback-deriv input on the pid comp to work? seems to always use dp/dt
[01:41:38] <andypugh> It's the 8 bytes written out?
[01:41:40] <jepler> so just looking at the first two hex digits and exponent, the value is (10+15/16.)/32678
[01:42:44] <jepler> PCW: it's supposed to work when you use hal to connect the velocity estimate to pid
[01:43:10] <jepler> e.g., net Xvel hm2_pci.0.encoder.00.velocity-fb -> pid.0.feedback-deriv
[01:43:16] <cradek> wfm
[01:43:26] <jepler> er, =>
[01:43:26] <andypugh> Ah, yes, the celebrated smart-pin kludge :-)
[01:43:40] <jepler> I'pm sure I'll live to regret the decision to write it that way :-/
[01:43:59] <PCW> Yep but it doesn't seem to work for me (2.5pre)
[01:45:09] <jepler> what are you looking at to see that it's not working?
[01:46:29] <PCW> verified by disconnecting position feedback (no damping even though pid.0.feedback-deriv is connected to hm2_pci.0.encoder.00.velocity-fb
[01:47:07] <jepler> andypugh: it's just a tiny bit more complicated than writing out the 8 bytes .. but that's pretty close. I chose to do that because a proper conversion to decimal took *much* longer, I think on the order of 10+ uS per float printed...
[01:47:54] <jepler> actually the first try *did* just print the 8 bytes, but in a weird order
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[01:48:57] <andypugh> There was a time when I could look through a hex dump and spot "float, double, text" I was reverse-engineering a binary file format looking for the imaginary part of the Fourier transform. I finally concluded that they really were throwing it away. That meant that the $100k bit of kit really was useless.
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[01:49:15] <jepler> andypugh: ouch
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[01:49:34] <andypugh> Well, it was rather old. I was wondering why it had seen so little use.
[01:50:55] <andypugh> It turned out that some very clever optical and vibration engineers had employed a programmer with no idea about convolution, correlation and transfer functions.
[01:51:25] <andypugh> It was a Polytec vibrometer. They can measure displacements of nanomaters at megahertz.
[01:53:54] <jepler> PCW: when I was testing, I was looking subjectively at the "noisyness" of the PID output depending on whether the feedback pin was hooked up
[01:54:03] <jepler> I don't immediately understand the test you're describing
[01:55:13] <PCW> I verified that the damping (pid loop set up for damping only) was coming from the position feedback term into the PI comp, not feedback-deriv
[01:56:56] <PCW> also verified that the velocity term from the encoder was clean (connected it directly to motor torque command)
[01:56:58] <PCW> s
[01:59:47] <jepler> so you have command, command-deriv, and feedback all unhooked
[01:59:53] <jepler> and feedback-deriv hooked up
[02:00:22] <jepler> and expect to see the pid output be in proportional to (the negative of) feedback-deriv?
[02:06:20] <jepler> .. that's what I see here http://pastebin.com/erxP0uaP
[02:06:29] <jepler> I'm not testing with anything hooked up, of course..
[02:06:37] <PCW> yes
[02:06:39] <PCW> net motor.00.vel-fb hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00.velocity => pid.0.feedback-deriv
[02:06:41] <PCW> #net motor.00.pos-fb hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00.position => pid.0.feedback
[02:06:42] <PCW> gives no damping
[02:06:44] <PCW> but
[02:06:46] <PCW> net motor.00.vel-fb hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00.velocity => pid.0.feedback-deriv
[02:06:47] <PCW> net motor.00.pos-fb hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00.position => pid.0.feedback
[02:06:49] <PCW> gives noisy damping
[02:07:26] <PCW> (pid with all gains 0 except Dgain)
[02:11:36] <jepler> your setup seems right
[02:11:42] <jepler> this is current "master"?
[02:12:20] <PCW> 2.5pre is what is says
[02:12:28] <PCW> it
[02:13:03] <cradek> you can see what particular commit it is with git log -1
[02:13:17] <PCW> just a sec
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[02:16:41] <PCW> I should do this from the Linux computer... the feedback-deriv related commit was from Oct 26
[02:26:29] <jepler> there were further changes to pid on october 27 and november 6, but the version that was committed on oct 26 is mostly the same as the current one from master
[02:27:51] <jepler> if you do go to the linux computer, try my pastebin example in halrun
[02:29:01] <PCW> OK
[02:33:01] <andypugh> Interesting. My little test motor is rated to 7000rpm
[02:33:44] <andypugh> But with a back-emf of .146 volts/rad/sec (from the data sheet) it can never do more than 1200rpm at rated voltage
[02:34:22] <andypugh> would you normally run DC servos above rated voltage like you do with steppers?
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[02:41:53] <PCW> No
[02:42:24] <andypugh> Odd spec sheet then.
[02:44:14] <PCW> I get 107V for 7K RPM
[02:44:23] <andypugh> Yes.
[02:44:51] <andypugh> The spec does say that the encoder can only do 6000 rpm
[02:45:21] <PCW> what voltage rating?
[02:45:35] <andypugh> 24.3
[02:46:45] <andypugh> There is a 48.9V version with a back-emf of .271.
[02:46:59] <andypugh> (The voltage ratings seem particularly precise too)
[02:47:38] <PCW> jepler: your test works (naturally)
[02:47:54] <PCW> converted from metric volts?
[02:48:44] <andypugh> :-)
[02:49:07] <andypugh> Converted from electron-volts?
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[02:49:53] <jepler> PCW: I wonder what the relevant difference in your setup is then
[02:50:27] <PCW> Probably a stupid HAL mistake on my part
[02:50:58] <jepler> PCW: if you scope motor.00.vel-fb it looks right?
[02:51:44] <jepler> thread order could affect noisiness and the "bang" at index during homing, but I don't know how it could break it altogether
[02:52:12] <jepler> (if you made your derivitive data 1ms staler by having an undesirable thread order)
[02:52:24] <PCW> Good idea (I just connected it to the motor for a touchy-feelly test)
[02:53:33] <jepler> you spin the shaft and then expect it to stop?
[02:53:45] <PCW> I just took the hm2-servo.hal file and added the feedback-deriv (plus all the 8I20 related stuff)
[02:54:19] <PCW> Yes i just feel the damping (d.dt of pos is like a siren)
[02:55:06] <jepler> I'd go run your test on my equipment, but that stuff is all in cradek's basement at the moment
[02:55:10] <jepler> good excuse, eh
[02:55:22] <cradek> hmm
[02:55:28] <cradek> that is a good one.
[03:02:08] <dgarr> for consideration: http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/stuff/0001-twopass-hal-configuration.patch
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[03:02:55] <jepler> dgarr: I saw that go by the other day but I didn't look at it in detail
[03:04:34] <jepler> I like the idea in principle, we've long wanted a way to free people from having to keep instance numbers straight and harmonized among multiple hal files
[03:15:51] <dgarr> do i need to do something more?
[03:21:59] <jepler> dgarr: I can see that the impact on non-users of the feature is likely to be low or zero (just the added tests in the runscript)
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[03:25:10] <jepler> I'm not sure I'd choose to alter puts
[03:25:12] <jepler> what's parray?
[03:25:19] <jepler> + set ::TP(nochange,cmds) {addf loadrt loadusr source parray}
[03:25:26] <dgarr> print array
[03:26:11] <dgarr> i think it is standard in tcl libs but maybe i'm wrong
[03:26:36] <jepler> so it is
[03:27:11] <dgarr> would rather have it print in both passes with no distinctions?
[03:28:43] <jepler> if I was trying to write anything but debug information I'd be grumpy when my output file didn't look like I expected
[03:29:30] <PCW> OK it does seem to be working, my touchy feely test is not very accurate, HAL scope shows the diff between the d/dt and encoder velocity based damping
[03:29:53] <cradek> yay
[03:30:12] <PCW> may have a lousy encoder as well (quadrature error)
[03:30:45] <jepler> PCW: the effect is pretty subtle on the two machines where I've tried it (itty bitty dc servo machines with lots of slop).. lets Dgain be increased a bit but that's about it
[03:31:09] <PCW> Mainly wanted to reduce the noise
[03:31:26] <cradek> it made my big maching not buzz at stop
[03:31:51] <jepler> dgarr: but renaming puts or not is not a big deal .. if it turns out to be a real bad idea that part can be removed at any time
[03:32:02] <PCW> Had trouble running 2KW bare motor at 1 KHs sample but runs fine at 4KHz
[03:32:24] <jepler> dgarr: if it works for you (and I assume it does, since you're asking to include it) then I'll stick it in
[03:32:41] <dgarr> jepler: i will remove the puts but make it available so a user can use it based user's choice of passnumber
[03:32:56] <dgarr> give me a few minutes and i'll revise it
[03:33:00] <jepler> dgarr: will do
[03:33:09] <jepler> I'll try to stay awake that long .. I'm exceptionally drowsy this evening
[03:33:14] <PCW> Thanks for your patience!
[03:33:23] <jepler> I blame the booze. But it was so tasty! http://www.northcoastbrewing.com/beer-OldStockAle.htm
[03:34:19] <dgarr> jepler: theres no rush, i'll put the revised patch up this evening and maybe you can look at it tomorrow
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[03:35:22] <dgarr> i think parray is not needed in nochange,cmds so i'll check that too
[03:36:03] <PCW> bye
[03:36:09] <jepler> goodnight guys
[03:36:12] <jepler> dgarr: thank you
[03:36:24] <dgarr> goodnight
[03:37:43] <cradek> cool, seb wrote a driver for that shuttle thingy that does the bogus HID
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[03:43:54] <cradek> seb!
[03:43:59] <seb_kuzminsky> hi :-)
[03:44:05] <cradek> neat that you made a driver for that damn thing
[03:44:09] <seb_kuzminsky> ugh
[03:44:27] <cradek> haha
[03:44:37] <seb_kuzminsky> it looks like a pretty handy dongle actually
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[03:45:13] <cradek> it seems well-loved by those who are used to it
[03:45:17] <seb_kuzminsky> not for real machinists who like 100 count/rev jog wheels and touchy, but for us dilettantes ;-)
[03:46:10] <cradek> that reminds me - i've been meaning to make touchy update any active continuous jogs if you change the velocity with the wheel
[03:46:27] <cradek> that would make it really nice
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[04:27:28] <dgarr> jepler: i revised patch so "puts" is not altered except by user request using procs: passnumber,no_puts or alter_puts, restore_puts
[04:27:35] <dgarr> thanks for your comments
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[13:41:59] <CIA-53> EMC: 03jepler 07master * r26e02895ee1b 10/ (6 files in 3 dirs): twopass hal configuration
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[13:53:28] <jepler> dgarr: thanks
[14:07:16] <skunkworks> logger
[14:07:28] <skunkworks> logger[psha]: ping
[14:20:34] <skunkworks> what is the saying that emc is based on? sense, calculate, react?
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[14:41:52] <jepler> "sense, model, act"?
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[15:00:47] <skunkworks> yes! Thanks jepler
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[15:38:03] <psha> jepler: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/3988
[15:41:58] <jepler> psha: http://mid.gmane.org/[email protected]
[15:42:32] <cradek> psha: your sample doc looks good - the auto conversion looks bad
[15:45:39] <jepler> I seem to recall that there was something I felt was a "killer problem" with asciidoc (besides the inevitable problems with automatic conversion)
[15:46:10] <jepler> maybe it was tables? I see they've made "new tables", possibly since I last looked. http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/newtables.html
[15:47:24] <psha> cradek: i've picked 'difficult' page as an example of autoconversion
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[15:48:26] <psha> jepler: tables are always hard in lightweight markups
[15:48:30] <cradek> I see
[15:48:59] <psha> part of info is lost in 'lyx --export', another part - in pandoc parsing...
[15:50:19] <jepler> I'd be tempted to repurpose the custom lyx->html converter to make a lyx->asciidoc converter
[15:50:19] <psha> cradek: http://psha.org.ru/tmp/touchy.html
[15:50:22] <psha> that's for simple one
[15:50:23] <jepler> and run it just one time
[15:51:22] <psha> cradek: source is in touchy.txt
[15:51:36] <psha> jepler: sure there are better ways then mine ;)
[15:51:45] <psha> i've just picked pandoc and hacked it a bit
[15:52:18] <jepler> so you're going lyx->latex [via lyx] and latex->asciidoc [via pandoc]?
[15:52:22] <psha> yes
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[15:53:08] <psha> JT-Shop: here?
[15:53:38] <psha> jepler: at least most of labels/refs pares are preserved
[15:53:55] <psha> but sometimes LyX place \label inside \caption
[16:01:10] <jepler> bbl
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[16:34:20] <CIA-53> EMC: 03cradek 07master * r12fe65e9a3f6 10/ (debian/changelog src/emc/usr_intf/touchy/emc_interface.py): touchy: allow jog speed changes during continuous jog
[16:37:09] <cradek> whee
[16:37:13] <cradek> I've always wanted that to work
[16:38:09] <skunkworks> heh - nice work!
[16:45:37] <cradek> it will make manual machining nicer
[16:45:59] <cradek> currently you can't adjust for sound/feel without stopping and restarting the cut
[16:46:26] <cradek> which always leaves a mark
[16:46:38] <skunkworks> I still think it is funny how much manual machining you do on your cnc.
[16:46:40] <skunkworks> :)
[16:46:43] <cradek> heh
[16:47:09] <cradek> I usually drill with cycles, but cut with the jog switches
[16:47:20] <cradek> doesn't everyone do it?
[16:49:30] <skunkworks> not yet :)
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[17:57:43] <psha> cradek: if you use 'for i,v in enumerate(self.isjogging):' in your patch you'll omit one place where 9 axis is hardcoded
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[18:09:05] <cradek> would have been smart...
[18:09:16] <cradek> (but I tested it already so I don't want to change it)
[18:10:49] <psha> i've found 'enumerate' in some of jeplers code and found it very useful
[18:11:50] <cradek> you are both better pythonners than I am
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[18:21:41] <psha> JT-Work: have a minute?
[18:22:00] <JT-Work> sure, how did you know I was over here?
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[18:32:20] <psha> :)
[18:32:24] <psha> sorry, was afk
[18:32:41] <psha> may you comment this one http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/3988
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[19:03:58] <psha> JT-Work: ping?
[19:04:18] <JT-Work> I was reading it in between working
[19:04:38] <psha> ah, ok
[19:16:08] <JT-Work> I don't have much time atm but I wonder how all the post processing we do on the html docs to get navigation and tables etc
[19:18:41] <psha> navigation == table of contents?
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[19:24:48] <JT-Work> at the top of the html pages
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[19:28:49] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/tmp/tutorial.html
[19:29:02] <psha> pages i've posted before were generated directly from asciidoc
[19:29:12] <psha> this one is done via docbook path
[19:31:21] <JT-Work> psha: I have to run to a customer to get them out of a jam... I can talk later with you
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[20:59:35] <skunkworks> seb!
[20:59:42] <cradek> sam!
[20:59:50] <skunkworks> chris!
[21:00:12] <skunkworks> cradek: are you going to cabin feaver?
[21:00:18] <skunkworks> fever
[21:00:21] <cradek> nah, way too far away
[21:01:03] <skunkworks> didn't you go last year? or was that names
[21:01:14] <cradek> I've been to names a few times
[21:01:22] <cradek> isn't cabin fever on the east coast somewhere?
[21:01:27] <skunkworks> hmm
[21:01:38] <cradek> I've gone to detroit a few times, but no farther - too far to drive.
[21:01:49] <skunkworks> heh
[21:02:06] <cradek> cleveland/detroit is far, but worth it - get to see jmk.
[21:02:10] <skunkworks> I just got an email for the cncfest...
[21:03:36] <skunkworks> June 21-24, 2011
[21:04:01] <cradek> heh, 20 hours to York PA
[21:04:09] <cradek> noooo thank you
[21:04:22] <skunkworks> heh
[21:05:50] <skunkworks> looks like it is still at the Washtenaw Community College
[21:06:02] <cradek> it was a decent place
[21:06:16] <cradek> (not entirely sure I'll go again, though)
[21:06:27] <skunkworks> NOOOOoooooooo!
[21:07:00] <cradek> I accomplished pretty much nothing while there - there's nothing interesting to work on
[21:07:03] <jepler> I'm not sure if I'll make it to workshop this year, either. I think I'm going to be in CA the week before and unlike, say, SWP, I don't like to be on the road all the time
[21:07:17] <skunkworks> heh
[21:08:05] <cradek> it's a weekend!
[21:08:06] <skunkworks> well - then there better be another wichita fest
[21:08:35] <jepler> skunkworks: how about we all road trip to see the K&T in person instead
[21:08:46] <cradek> that'd be fun
[21:08:53] <skunkworks> oh - that might be interesting...
[21:09:06] <cradek> although if it's already done...
[21:09:13] <skunkworks> heh
[21:10:47] <skunkworks> we - we have other projects.. (puma,cincinati lathe...)
[21:11:19] <skunkworks> dad has been working really hard getting stuff cleaned up and more lighting put in.
[21:11:33] <skunkworks> I cannot believe how much stuff is in there.
[21:34:01] <skunkworks> cradek: you did get some things added to the axis preview.. (angle and offsets and such) (at the fest)
[21:34:42] <cradek> that's true... forgot I did the g92 stuff.
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[21:49:34] <psha> bb
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[22:30:30] <PCW> andypugh: latest bldc.comp works fine even at 6KHz, we could probably run faster but the test computer has horrible latency
[22:30:49] <andypugh> Great
[22:31:14] <andypugh> It's working well with 7i39 here too.
[22:37:39] <PCW> I notice 1 KHz servo thread is too slow to get good performance from a torque mode drive like the 8I20 (at least with our light inertial load- DC motor as dynamometer)
[22:38:05] <PCW> 4KHz works really well
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[22:46:42] <jepler> I bet 4kHz is pretty doable on most current machines
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[22:46:56] <jepler> particularly when there's no base thread
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[22:50:03] <andypugh> How would you test?
[22:50:29] <andypugh> I guess if you look at the total thread time, and try to leave 50% for the rest of the machine?
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[22:56:53] <jepler> yeah, really all you can do is see whether it runs reliably and doesn't make the GUI too sluggish
[22:58:27] <CIA-53> EMC: 03seb 07master * r9a14c1ccd81a 10/docs/man/man1/halui.1: fix pin name: it's really halui.jog-speed
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[23:08:09] <andypugh> Running the 5i23 servo example with 6 pids and 6 bldcs at 10kHz and no sign of any GUI issues at all.
[23:08:43] <andypugh> Thread time is up to 73uS of the 100uS, but it all seems fine. SMP showing its hand?
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[23:26:49] <jepler> yes, that sure would help
[23:27:07] <jepler> I usually forget that works out of the box now
[23:27:18] <jepler> bbl
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[23:36:56] <garage_seb> cradek: i want to copy your "change jog speed while in continuous jog" feature from touchy to halui, unless you can think of a reason that'd be a bad idea
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