#emc-devel | Logs for 2011-01-19

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[01:36:22] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: would you accept the shuttlexpress user_comp into 2.4? i think it doesn't affect anything else...
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[02:41:33] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: *winces* I'm not thrilled at the idea
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[02:57:24] <seb_kuzminsky> ok nevermind, i figured you might say that but it wouldnt hurt to ask :-)
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[03:03:27] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: how do you like the thing after using it for a while?
[03:10:56] <seb_kuzminsky> it's pretty annoying currently, but i can make it much better with some smarter hal wiring
[03:11:45] <seb_kuzminsky> i think it'd be better if the axis selection buttons were "sticky", so you can hit Z, then put one hand on the jogwheel and the other hand on the .500 dowel pin for setting z offsets, for example
[03:11:53] <seb_kuzminsky> currently it needs three hands to operate ;-)
[03:12:47] <cradek> you mean you currently have to hold the Z button down?
[03:13:12] <seb_kuzminsky> yep
[03:13:23] <cradek> yep I can see how that's not ideal
[03:13:41] <seb_kuzminsky> i thought it was a feature at first - so you dont accidentally swipe the wheel when you dont intend motion
[03:13:49] <seb_kuzminsky> but it turns out to just be annoying
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[03:17:19] <cradek> does it have enough buttons for separate axis selects?
[03:18:09] <seb_kuzminsky> yes
[03:18:11] <cradek> the one button x->y->z->x scheme is always a pain
[03:18:15] <cradek> that's good then
[03:18:16] <seb_kuzminsky> 5 buttons
[03:18:34] <seb_kuzminsky> x, y, z, a, "step" say the custom tormach silkscreens
[03:19:02] <cradek> oh so they use a cycle of step sizes
[03:20:23] <seb_kuzminsky> i've got it set to .1 thou, .5 thou, 1 thou and 10 thou right now in the shuttlexpress.hal file
[03:20:34] <seb_kuzminsky> btw, does that belong in configs/common? that's where i put it
[03:21:08] <cradek> not sure - we don't have any other hal files quite like it (a lot of complexity for a particular device that might be used on many different kinds of machines)
[03:22:38] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm off to the weekly boulder hackspace meeting
[03:22:48] <cradek> fun! goodnight
[03:22:49] <seb_kuzminsky> i think we have critical mass for building a tiny little cnc router
[03:22:55] <cradek> that's awesome
[03:23:08] <cradek> for wood you mean?
[03:23:11] <seb_kuzminsky> the guys are looking at this design: http://makeyourbot.org/mantis9-1
[03:23:30] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm mostly excited about isolation milling pcbs
[03:23:39] <cradek> it's zenbot but made out of plywood
[03:23:42] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[03:23:54] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm arguing for Al
[03:24:12] <cradek> yeah of course you want Al (like zenbot does)
[03:24:57] <cradek> you could use the same scheme I did on my gantry test box
[03:25:16] <cradek> drill rod rails, press fit on one end and close-free fit on the other, so you can still disassemble it
[03:26:39] <cradek> "Its kind of cool that a few simple manual operations and some epoxy can trump the accuracy of a ten-thousand dollar CNC machine."
[03:26:49] <cradek> and this, I kind of doubt :-)
[03:27:04] <seb_kuzminsky> haha, yeah that line made me roll my eyes
[03:27:09] <seb_kuzminsky> mmm, epoxy
[03:27:37] <cradek> it looks like a fun design to play with - it would cost very little to build, and then you can start improving it
[03:27:40] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm planning to use those little nema 17 steppers with integrated drivers like we put on my varispeed
[03:27:42] <cradek> lots of learning experiences
[03:27:49] <jepler> oh, it's not hot glue? how classy.
[03:27:55] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[03:27:59] <seb_kuzminsky> see you guys
[03:28:03] <cradek> bye
[03:29:04] <cradek> I'm jealous of seb's infant hackspace
[03:30:51] <jepler> they do *WHAT* to innocent babbies?
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[08:35:51] <psha> mhaberler: i mean if it's done outside of interp it's hard to mock it's state
[08:36:07] <mhaberler> yes, I understand that
[08:38:07] <psha> but making it in interp will break everything...
[08:38:14] <psha> unless it's controlled by some flag
[08:42:29] <mhaberler> re switching to mdi: did you mean if force=1 switch to mdi mode, run as usual, and then somehow(?) switch back?
[08:44:38] <mhaberler> actually I wouldnt mind if the whole thing had a more generall solution because it would enable for instance to introduce canned cycles as gcode subs
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[08:46:17] <psha> yes, auto processing have to be disabled
[08:46:24] <psha> most ovbious way is to switch to MDI mode
[08:46:34] <psha> but that's break many things too
[08:55:05] <mhaberler> another way could be:
[08:55:06] <mhaberler> if t/m6 encountered, open the sub ngc file to divert reads manually
[08:55:44] <mhaberler> in effect simulate o<subname> call <params>
[08:56:25] <mhaberler> manually means to say: not driven by o<subname> call but by encountering a redirected g-code
[09:00:41] <mhaberler> with that it should be possible to replace aritrary gcode commands, driven by a table
[09:05:42] <mhaberler> basically you could say in inifile: REDIRECT= m6 t g<somcecode> and it would search for a corresponding sub ngc file
[09:21:11] <mhaberler> psha: what exactly is the semantics of execute(0) vs execute(foocommand)? the latter in mdi mode only? I dont quite understand what the former is for
[09:23:52] <psha> execute(0) is resched
[09:23:59] <psha> continues previous execution
[09:24:05] <mhaberler> I see
[09:25:28] <psha> hm
[09:28:51] <mhaberler> actually changing read/read_text to go for the replacement .ngc might be the easiest approach
[09:29:28] <mhaberler> with largest breakage potential ;-)
[09:32:42] <mhaberler> bbl
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[12:36:01] <cradek> are you guys keeping in mind that something like 'T1 M6 G4 P3 G43 S3000 M3 M8' is a perfectly fine line of gcode, and all those things happen in a defined order?
[12:37:06] <mhaberler> yessir!
[12:37:37] <cradek> ok :-)
[12:38:01] <mhaberler> I've tried different approaches, and the most promising is to do effectively a macro replacement during read_t (read_m too follow)
[12:38:41] <cradek> but 'o<m6> call g43 s3000 m3' is invalid gcode
[12:39:03] <cradek> or do I misunderstand what you mean?
[12:39:29] <mhaberler> unfortunately you are right ;-)
[12:39:30] <cradek> my connection is shaky - forgive me if I disappear
[12:39:53] <mhaberler> I dont replace the line, I parse the replacement command into the block
[12:41:45] <mhaberler> I'm always stunned about the irregularity of this language..
[12:42:19] <cradek> ok I will leave it to you - I just wanted to make sure you understood the depth of the rabbit hole. I looked down it and ran the other way. :-)
[12:43:19] <cradek> first, in 1950, make a language suitable for the machines of the day. then, for 60 years, add little things you need...!
[12:44:09] <mhaberler> re hole: ok, o<m6> call g43 s3000 m3 doesnt execute, but where's the bnf which forbids me to do this? is it some 'one of a kind per line' rule?
[12:44:49] <cradek> I think lines starting with O get entirely different treatment
[12:45:17] <mhaberler> yes, that is a cleanup patient too - it should go through interp_array like the rest
[12:45:57] <cradek> maybe at the CHANGE_TOOL() you should invoke a new interpreter and start fresh with the file you want. when done, cause the original interpreter to resync (actually it already does after tool change)
[12:47:14] <mhaberler> 'invoke a new interpreter'.. interesting. can you point me to a line of code?
[12:47:40] <mhaberler> currently I hope to get away with a single context but it might be less messy that way
[12:48:21] <cradek> emctask.cc
[12:48:27] <cradek> Interp interp;
[12:48:45] <cradek> then emcTaskPlanInit()
[12:48:56] <mhaberler> ah
[12:49:16] <cradek> not that I understand any of the details
[12:50:32] <mhaberler> does the new interp get his own interp_list?
[12:50:45] <cradek> I don't know
[12:50:53] <mhaberler> ok, will dig
[12:52:19] <cradek> bbl, thanks for working on this
[12:52:49] <psha> hm, maybe running brand new interp is nice solution
[12:53:16] <mhaberler> hm, re TaskPlanInit - looks like the Interp is a static class initializer (at global level) so I assume the whole thing runs with a single instance
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[12:54:24] <mhaberler> but that shouldnt keep one from trying
[12:54:26] <alex_joni> mhaberler: no reason it couldn't/shouldn't be changed
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[13:10:15] <mhaberler> well, Tx and M6 on separate lines already work great macro-replaced this way!
[13:10:15] <mhaberler> there's still an issue with both on a single line but I hope it can be nailed
[13:21:36] <mhaberler> psha: possibly a new interpreter is an easier solution to the MDI o-call problem
[13:22:10] <psha> yes :)
[13:22:55] <mhaberler> this is where I'm at: http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/emc2-dev.git/shortlog/refs/heads/toolchange-osub-try2
[13:22:57] <mhaberler> the remaining issue is if I do eg an T3M6 only the M6 is executed
[13:22:57] <psha> but still code for rescheduling execution is needed
[13:23:12] <mhaberler> that's true
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[13:23:41] <mhaberler> but maybe it's possible to whack the new interpeter to treat the MDI call in auto mode
[13:29:41] <mhaberler> well, it looks like interp_list is a global, not an interpreter instance variable, and emccanon works on the global list
[13:29:43] <mhaberler> meaning: a new interp instance might be of limited value without fixing that
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[13:30:46] <mhaberler> it would make sense if a new interp also changed (pushed) the list task is working on
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[13:39:48] <psha> jthornton: here?
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[14:19:45] <jthornton> psha: I am for a bit
[14:28:13] <jthornton> well it wants me to restart here now
[14:28:28] <jthornton> I'll be out in the shop if you need me
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[14:31:32] <jthornton> this is odd, now firefox's home page is http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/index.html
[14:31:41] <psha> :)
[14:31:42] * jthornton wanders out to the shop now
[14:32:13] <psha> you mentioned in the mail that thing you don't like is that some info is not included in PDF
[14:33:05] <psha> may you give example?
[14:33:15] <psha> G-code reference and manpages?
[14:35:09] <JT-Shop> man pages mostly
[14:35:41] <JT-Shop> the user manual has all the g code info including a quick reference
[14:36:24] <JT-Shop> the menu item g code quick reference only works if you have an internet connection :/
[14:43:16] <psha> bbl
[14:44:53] <JT-Shop> ok
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[14:55:20] <jepler> there are pdf manpages
[14:55:36] <jepler> they're not shipped in the packages
[14:56:17] <jepler> the gcode quick reference could work for installed packages if we switched from shipping pdf to shipping html, but that's been shot down in the past
[14:56:38] <jepler> I don't want to bloat packages by shipping the same stuff in multiple formats, and apparently everyone in the universe but me wants pdfs
[14:56:50] <jepler> all emc2 manpages in pdf format: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/EMC2_Manual_Pages.pdf
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[15:02:00] <JT-Shop> jepler: I'm not sure what advantage a pdf would have over the html except being contained into one file
[15:02:39] <cradek> table of contents and page numbers that are right when it's printed
[15:03:35] <JT-Shop> oh, yea that is a constant problem for me " you have a mistake in 1.1.1 ..."
[15:03:45] <JT-Shop> and they were looking at the html's
[15:03:55] <jepler> "page 39" wouldn't help you much either
[15:03:57] <jepler> tbh
[15:04:34] <JT-Shop> yea
[15:05:12] <JT-Shop> do the pdf man pages have an index? I can't tell from this winblows 7 machine
[15:13:59] <jepler> yes, at least some of the PDFs have an index near the end
[15:16:04] <psha> manpages pdf has no index as i may see
[15:16:48] <psha> jepler: it's built from *roff pages?
[15:19:10] <JT-Shop> I'm sorry I meant TOC not index
[15:20:32] <jepler> JT-Shop: er, I just read what you said. no, there's no TOC or index for the pdf manpages.
[15:20:36] <jepler> psha: yes
[15:26:55] <psha> comp manpages may be easily hooked in rst/asciidoc docs - just add another option to 'comp' and then add then include them in doc build
[15:27:28] <psha> and what's problem with gcode quickref?
[15:27:49] <jepler> psha: the gcode quickref links to html documentation
[15:27:51] <psha> there is no pdf version of it? it's pretty useless i think
[15:27:54] <JT-Shop> the one on the menu assumes you have an internet connection
[15:28:06] <jepler> psha: but "the html documentation" is not in the package, so all the URLs are absolute links to linuxcnc.org
[15:28:14] <JT-Shop> psha: yes
[15:28:48] <psha> and what's reason behind not building pdf quickef? except it's useless in pdf form?
[15:28:54] <jepler> since you can't portably "deep link" into a pdf document from an html document the pdf docs are useless for that purpose
[15:29:17] <jepler> psha: if you can get your toolchain to build an excellent html quickref and an excellent pdf quickref from the same source, I'll kiss it.
[15:29:57] <JT-Shop> the user manual has the quickref in the g code section of the pdf
[15:30:02] <psha> heh, excelent is not formal requirement :)
[15:30:03] <jepler> I hate paper so stuff I've done (html quickref, autogenerated manpages from comps) is geared towards other technologies like man and html..
[15:30:23] <psha> yes, referencing part of pdf is not possible as i know
[15:30:32] <psha> at least with evince and other viewers i've seen
[15:31:10] <JT-Shop> the one from the pdf converted to html http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_main.html#sec:Quick-Reference-Table
[15:33:30] <JT-Shop> I've never printed a pdf but find the navigation easier with a TOC in the left column... this can be done with CSS right?
[15:33:39] <JT-Shop> in a HTML
[15:34:06] <psha> JT-Shop: yes
[15:34:15] <psha> if it's living in separate div
[15:34:26] <psha> it's possible to stick it to the left
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[15:35:00] <JT-Shop> and have them open up chapter toc when you click on a chapter?
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[15:38:18] <psha> don't know :)
[15:38:25] <psha> that's javascript magic :)
[15:39:09] <psha> http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/toc.html
[15:39:12] <psha> something like this?
[15:39:30] <jepler> yuck. javascript required for documentation to work is just about worse than pdf-only documentation
[15:42:16] <JT-Shop> yea, I'd hate to be forced to have javascript just read the docs
[15:43:14] <psha> so you won't get any shiny expandable tocs ;) but honestly they are not very useful :)
[15:43:41] <JT-Shop> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537646%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
[15:44:10] <psha> that's global site nav
[15:44:19] <psha> not page-local ToC
[15:44:21] <JT-Shop> when you have a shorter list to choose from to drill down to the final page it is very useful
[15:44:34] <JT-Shop> see what I know :)
[15:44:58] <jepler> whatever dynamic html / javascript / whatever they're calling it today you want to do, you could do with the current lyx docs
[15:45:04] <jepler> and the current html converter
[15:45:41] <jepler> so whether changed navigation like this is desirable, don't connect it too strongly with changing the source format of the docvs
[15:45:45] <jepler> docs
[15:46:06] <psha> yes, that's true
[15:46:14] <jepler> anyway, I wouldn't believe a single word I read on microsoft.com when it comes to writing html
[15:46:20] <jepler> ;-)
[15:47:43] <psha> really 'to switch or not to switch' question is only related to format preferences...
[15:50:06] <psha> lightweight formats provide only one feature that lyx lacks - ability to do web edits
[15:50:23] <psha> but it's questionable improvement
[15:50:47] <JT-Shop> so the reason I wanted to have the G-Code section of the User manual as a separate master doc is so it could replace the quick reference menu item and just always work
[15:51:38] <JT-Shop> as far as I can tell this would not break any links to any other part of the user manual as I recall the last time I looked at it
[15:52:24] <jepler> the lyx table you linked to has a lot less information than gcode.html. For instance, it doesn't list the other letters that are associated with a given g- or m-code. It omits the summary of O-words and comments.
[15:53:43] <JT-Shop> and those can be added easy enough
[15:54:15] <jepler> actually it still won't fix the problem..
[15:54:51] <JT-Shop> with not having an internet connection on a machine?
[15:54:52] <jepler> unless it's in its own pdf or is the very first page of the gcode reference (instead of the normal front matter), you can't put an applications menu item that goes directly to it
[15:55:12] <jepler> but if it's in its own document, then you can't link to things in other pdfs, which everything would be by definition
[15:56:22] <JT-Shop> this is true, the best it could be is the first page of the pdf after the front matter
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[16:01:13] <psha> bbl
[16:01:22] <JT-Shop> it would work even if you didn't have an internet connection, something the quick reference guide does not do unfortunately
[16:01:39] <jepler> so would shipping html docs and no pdf docs :-P
[16:01:43] <jepler> I have to bbl too
[16:02:57] <JT-Shop> that is correct
[16:07:10] <JT-Shop> bbl
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[18:29:52] <psha> jepler: quickref table you mention is this: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode.html ?
[18:29:58] <psha> i mean 'correct' one
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[19:08:56] <JT-Shop> psha: yes
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[19:36:26] <jepler> psha: yes
[19:36:36] <jepler> the /docs/devel/html version is just a little bit different, of course
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[19:49:50] <psha> jepler: what's problem to include it into main docs?
[19:49:56] <psha> hard to draw tables in lyx?
[19:56:18] <jepler> psha: it's been so long since I wrote that I don't remember what specific shortcomings of lyx made me do it that way
[19:57:26] <jepler> the table editor in lyx is a class of pain all by itself
[19:58:56] <psha> tables are always not easy...
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[20:15:07] <jepler> > An error occurred whilst running db2html 'gcode-quickref.sgml'
[20:19:47] <jepler> it seems that docs/html/gcode.html predate actually having a current gcode reference in emc2 at all
[20:20:13] <jepler> in the initially committed version, the links are to an old html version -- links like +<TR> <TD> <A HREF="http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_33a.html#1012810">G0</A> <TD> <TD> Rapid motion </TR>
[20:20:48] <jepler> much later I copied that document into a lyx file and redid the styles by hand
[20:22:38] <jepler> hm actually gcode/main.lyx is also first in 2.1.0.
[20:27:37] <SWPadnos> didn't we make the gcode reference for those cards we printed and handed out at the CNC workshop 4 or 5 years ago?
[20:27:44] <SWPadnos> (for small values of "we")
[20:28:39] <psha> wow, rich history :)
[20:28:39] <jepler> yes. one of us, maybe me, carefully tweaked the page setup in firefox until a nice half-page version was obtained, made a pdf or ps file, and sent it on to you (?) who put it together with a cad-drawn half sheet explaining cutter comp...
[20:28:57] <jepler> of course, there were about 20 fewer rows back then
[20:28:58] <SWPadnos> yep. JMK started it, you fixed it, I printed it
[20:29:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:29:20] <SWPadnos> yeah, I remember that being a problem for the next CNC workshop, when we thought about doing the whole thing again
[20:29:28] <cradek> I made jmk draw the diagrams, by doing it badly first
[20:29:35] <SWPadnos> smart
[20:35:50] <jepler> of course, cutter comp is so much better now that you might as well throw away that side of the card
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[23:08:00] <psha> bb
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