#emc | Logs for 2005-04-15

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[00:00:29] <Jymmm> G'Night dmess
[00:00:35] <dmess> currently have a LiteON cdrw thats almost bulletproof
[00:00:45] <pfred1> yeah liteon is good
[00:00:55] <pfred1> I got a thing called a cybermax
[00:00:57] <dmess> cheap too
[00:01:13] <pfred1> the cybermax is slightly cheaper than the liteon which I looked at
[00:01:38] <dmess> there's a cheaper one...
[00:01:46] <pfred1> but this drive rox I've burnt over 400 discs with it so far
[00:02:01] <pfred1> and it hasn't skipped a beat
[00:02:09] <dmess> cool
[00:02:23] <pfred1> yeah it's a hmm what is this thing?
[00:03:01] <pfred1> http://69.249.77.18:10000/projects/system/CW078D/CW078D_products.asp.html
[00:03:04] <pfred1> that's it
[00:03:13] <pfred1> was like $32 when I bought it
[00:04:17] <pfred1> it even came with a free drink coaster
[00:05:05] <dmess> cool... the wifey 'll burn ANYTHING at 52X
[00:05:21] <pfred1> yeah this thing's a couple of years old now
[00:05:37] <dmess> its an LG
[00:06:09] <pfred1> I've only seen real speeds of about 32X out of it
[00:07:14] <pfred1> but i never have used higher than 40X discs in it
[00:07:23] <dmess> still good considering the 1st one i bought in 1997 cost about a G
[00:07:37] <pfred1> yeah my Plextor set me back a good piece
[00:08:12] <pfred1> and it was never 10th the drive this thing is
[00:08:25] <dmess> idiot me i bought an HP anchor
[00:08:31] <pfred1> buy the cheapest it's the best!
[00:09:16] <Phydbleep> "Woohoo!" I just re-floored the shop. It took all of 4 pieces.. :)
[00:09:50] <dmess> too much whinin for 1/2 hours work...
[00:10:09] <pfred1> yeah how fire retardant is this stuff?
[00:10:32] <dmess> im off o read some...be well all... ; )
[00:10:43] <dmess> prolly NOT...
[00:10:57] <pfred1> not good to weld on?
[00:11:08] <Phydbleep> Probably more fire retardant than the plywood floor under it. :)
[00:11:22] <pfred1> plywood doesn't really burn it just blackens
[00:11:42] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is in luck... This matting is already black..
[00:11:46] <pfred1> I guess with a really big piece of slag dripped ont oit
[00:12:21] <pfred1> really welding on concrete scares me a little the slag goes skittering around on it
[00:12:31] <pfred1> I always wonder where they run off to :)
[00:13:34] <Phydbleep> To plot global domination of course..
[00:14:21] <pfred1> I got a welding project going on now
[00:20:48] <bradleyb> hi, i have a question about limit and home switches
[00:21:04] <bradleyb> anyone out there?
[00:21:14] <jmkasunich> dunno if I can help, but what is the question?
[00:21:28] <bradleyb> i have a debian version of emc
[00:21:37] <jmkasunich> a BDI?
[00:22:10] <bradleyb> i'm not sure exactly which version it is, but it was all precompiled and installed with the os
[00:22:31] <jmkasunich> sounds like BDI-4.xx
[00:23:05] <bradleyb> the question is i can see in io-show the switches tripping the correct ports.
[00:23:10] <bradleyb> yes, that is it.
[00:23:11] <Phydbleep> bradleyb: 'cat /proc/version'
[00:23:46] <Phydbleep> bradleyb: That will tell you the kernel version which will tell use the BDI version.
[00:23:54] <Phydbleep> s/use/us
[00:24:12] <jmkasunich> or uname -r
[00:24:40] <bradleyb> Linux version 2.6.9-adeos ([email protected]) (gcc version 2.95.4 20011002 (Debian prerelease)) #1 Sun Dec 19 15:52:35 GMT 2004
[00:24:56] <jmkasunich> uname -r on BDI-4.20 says "2.6.10-adeos", is that what you have?
[00:25:26] <bradleyb> yes, i have 2.6.9 though
[00:25:37] <jmkasunich> ok, I think that is BDI-4.18
[00:25:47] <jmkasunich> the EMC on those two is pretty much the same tho
[00:25:54] <bradleyb> ok.
[00:25:57] <bradleyb> problem is this.
[00:26:15] <bradleyb> in show-io it looks like proper ports are being triggered,
[00:26:26] <bradleyb> but they have no effect on the program. nothing happens.
[00:26:49] <bradleyb> in the ini file the settings are
[00:26:49] <Phydbleep> Your home/limit switches aren't reading?
[00:26:56] <jmkasunich> the default ini file (machine configuration) doesn't use limits
[00:27:06] <bradleyb> how are they enabled?
[00:27:20] <jmkasunich> good question
[00:27:30] <jmkasunich> I haven't used switches with emc1
[00:27:38] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is not sure.. Rebuilding a machine to try emc2..
[00:27:50] <jmkasunich> and the way its done in emc2 is completely different, so that won't help you
[00:28:10] <bradleyb> so emc2 is totally different?
[00:28:23] <bradleyb> not a thing where i could just compile that and give it a whirl?
[00:28:41] <Phydbleep> Yeah, I'm going to 2 to see if it will work with my lathe.
[00:28:44] <jmkasunich> unfortunately emc2 won't compile on your BDI-4.xx system
[00:28:50] <bradleyb> oh.
[00:29:16] <jmkasunich> (the emc2 build system hasn't been updated to work with version 2.6 of the kernel yet, and BDI-4 uses 2.6)
[00:29:32] <bradleyb> right ...
[00:29:50] <Phydbleep> Ah.. So that was my error with trying it on the other box. :)
[00:29:56] <jmkasunich> I have every reason to believe that the BDI-4 emc will work with switches
[00:30:02] <jmkasunich> the question is how to configure it
[00:30:37] <bradleyb> i wondered if the trick was a change to the ini file or if i have to recompile emc with different settings built in.
[00:30:42] <jmkasunich> (actually, I have one nagging doubt. there is a compile time switch that can disable switches, I wonder if Paul set it when he compiled the BDI-4 emc?)
[00:31:32] <bradleyb> maybe that is what i should explore, because it seemed like there wasn't a switch in the ini file
[00:31:37] <bradleyb> only polarity.
[00:31:53] <jmkasunich> let me check a few things
[00:36:24] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep goes to finish emptying the truck..
[00:40:33] <jmkasunich> bradleyb: unfortunately I can't tell right now whether switches are enabled in the BDI-4 build
[00:40:52] <SWPadnos> they're in there, but I don't know how to enable them
[00:41:06] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at emcmot.c, and there are limit switch checks there
[00:41:20] <bradleyb> do you know if there are special notes for compiling on debian?
[00:41:31] <bradleyb> do you just specify the platform?
[00:41:36] <bradleyb> i guess i could just try it.
[00:41:39] <jmkasunich> but they're wrapped in #ifdef NO_SWITCHES, aren't they?
[00:41:41] <SWPadnos> (unfortunately, I'm doing it on SF CVS, so I can't grep)
[00:41:53] <SWPadnos> nope
[00:42:20] <jmkasunich> bradley: compiling on BDI-4 is non-trivial, but there is a step-by-step proceedure on the emc wiki
[00:42:30] <jmkasunich> URL in a moment (once I find it)
[00:43:03] <jmkasunich> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Install
[00:43:12] <bradleyb> thanks.
[00:43:29] <SWPadnos> I'm looking in the function emcmotController, if you want to see what I'm seeing
[00:43:38] <jmkasunich> SWP: I just checked out the BDI-4 branch
[00:43:52] <SWPadnos> ah - so you can grep :)
[00:43:52] <jmkasunich> sure, gimme line numbers
[00:44:11] <SWPadnos> uh - SourceForge doesn't mark up the files with line numbers
[00:44:49] <jmkasunich> oh
[00:45:31] <SWPadnos> look around line 450 or so
[00:45:39] <SWPadnos> (+/- 10-20)
[00:45:42] <bradleyb> that looked helpful.
[00:45:45] <jmkasunich> anyway, I just remembered that the "NO_SWITCHES" ifdef is in the homing code, to eliminate some strange stuff that happened on the sherline, where "HOME" really means "zero position without moving"
[00:45:54] <SWPadnos> ah
[00:46:05] <jmkasunich> should have no effect on limits themselves, you are right the code should still be checking them
[00:46:17] <bradleyb> i have to go to a meeting.
[00:46:25] <SWPadnos> I don't see where the ini file parameters are loaded though
[00:46:41] <jmkasunich> bradleyp: post on the emc-users list for better help
[00:46:42] <bradleyb> sorry to leave in the middle of this.
[00:47:15] <bradleyb> will you be on later?
[00:47:24] <jmkasunich> maybe an hour or so
[00:47:42] <jmkasunich> the real experts are on the users list
[00:47:43] <bradleyb> ok, i'll try then. thanks again for your help though.
[00:47:53] <bradleyb> i'll try that too.
[00:47:55] <bradleyb> bye
[00:48:09] <jmkasunich> SWP: there are some files that handle ini parsing, looking for them now
[00:48:36] <SWPadnos> I see some in libnml, are those used by everything?
[00:48:48] <SWPadnos> libnml/inifile/*
[00:49:42] <jmkasunich> src/emc/nml_intf/ini*.cc
[00:49:43] <jmkasunich> I think
[00:50:16] <jmkasunich> I think libnml/inifile is the generic parser, called by the ini*.cc files
[00:50:24] <SWPadnos> ah - OK
[00:51:40] <SWPadnos> well - iniaxis doesn't read the limit switch I/O indices from the ini file - only the polarity
[00:51:47] <jmkasunich> yep
[00:51:58] <jmkasunich> the indexes may be hardcoded somewhere
[00:52:03] <jmkasunich> or not
[00:52:18] <SWPadnos> looks like they are - maybe in a header file (if we're lucky)
[00:52:25] <jmkasunich> that is something HAL was trying to eliminate, so I paid very little attention to the old way
[00:52:28] <jmkasunich> aren
[00:52:32] <SWPadnos> indeed
[00:52:52] <SWPadnos> I'd love to get to know HAL,
[00:52:55] <jmkasunich> aren't the switch inputs on the 2nd parport? (or am I thinking of the bridgeport I/O?)
[00:53:22] <SWPadnos> bridgeportio uses the second - that's why minimill exists (so you can use only one port)
[00:53:34] <jmkasunich> ok
[00:53:42] <SWPadnos> bptio also adds coolant, brake, and other things you'd find on a large mill
[00:54:00] <jmkasunich> that makes sense - the first port is realtime (steps out, limits in), the second port is non-realtime
[00:54:20] <jmkasunich> well without bradley here, we can't figure out what is wrong
[00:54:38] <SWPadnos> Maybe we can, but there's less impetus :)
[00:55:00] <SWPadnos> I should boot my emc machine so I can use grep, but I have a bunch of other stuff to do
[00:55:06] <jmkasunich> re: "I'd love to get to know HAL", have you seen the Hal_Intro document?
[00:55:23] <SWPadnos> I'll finally read through the HAL document while I'm on vacation next week
[00:55:34] <SWPadnos> I have read part of it, but not gotten through the whole thing
[00:55:43] <jmkasunich> it is kinda long
[00:55:46] <SWPadnos> It looks like the type of thing I would do, though
[00:55:52] <jmkasunich> but it's the best way to learn about HAL tho
[00:56:12] <SWPadnos> HAL is pretty simple in concept, but flexible enough to be complex to use
[00:56:20] <jmkasunich> yeah, that is a problem
[00:56:30] <jmkasunich> config files can get complicated
[00:56:47] <jmkasunich> basically, a HAL config is something like a circuit netlist
[00:56:49] <SWPadnos> That's why the discussions of schematic-like configurators
[00:57:10] <jmkasunich> and netlists are things that lend themselves to graphical, rather than text display
[00:57:13] <Jymmm> Could someone look at the controller/drivers in this page and tell me if they are using a current limiting resistor or a (PWM) chopper circuit? http://www.pilotltd.net/cnc.htm
[00:58:33] <SWPadnos> I think the L297 is a chopper drive, but I'm not sure
[00:58:59] <SWPadnos> there's a comment on the schematic that says "J2 Pin 3 - Phase or inhibit chopping", so I think it's a chopper drive
[00:59:32] <Jymmm> I just like this guy's thinking, but hasn't responded to my email
[00:59:40] <jmkasunich> yeah. the power stage appears to be an H-bridge (never heard of a L6203, but it seems like a half-bridge to me)
[01:01:03] <Jymmm> The resistors he calls for just seemed screwy to me
[01:01:29] <SWPadnos> they're all standard values
[01:02:00] <SWPadnos> I think the r4/r6 and r5/r7 pairs are for chopping speed setting
[01:02:09] <Jymmm> Not the values, the type.... TO220 style
[01:02:36] <Jymmm> "Note: Do NOT use wirewound types!"
[01:02:39] <SWPadnos> where did you see that?
[01:02:49] <Jymmm> http://www.pilotltd.net/images/L6203.gif
[01:02:55] <Jymmm> in the notes, bottom left
[01:03:01] <SWPadnos> ah
[01:03:12] <jmkasunich> R4-5-6-7 are the current sensing resistors
[01:03:37] <Jymmm> ok, so theri for sensing, not limiting.... cool
[01:03:54] <jmkasunich> they need to handle significant current (hence the TO-220 package) and have low inductance to avoid false triggering of the chopper circuits during switching
[01:03:54] <Jymmm> so bascially a current shunt
[01:03:58] <SWPadnos> you'd think that, but it really depends on the function of the VREF pin
[01:03:59] <jmkasunich> yes
[01:04:16] <SWPadnos> nop - on the function of the SEN pin - sorry
[01:04:19] <SWPadnos> nope
[01:04:22] <Jymmm> I never even heard of TO220 resistors before
[01:04:51] <jmkasunich> I bet Vref sets the chopping level, and SEN1 and SEN2 are compared to Vref to turn off the FETs when the current gets high enough
[01:05:33] <Jymmm> jmkasunich there's even an optional circuit to shut off current after 1 or 5 minutes of no usage
[01:05:58] <SWPadnos> oh right - I didn't notice that those are sent back to the L297
[01:06:31] <jmkasunich> yeah, the SEN pin of the L6203 is probably the source of the low side FET
[01:07:18] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich googles L6203
[01:08:29] <SWPadnos> those are very expensive resistors
[01:08:32] <jmkasunich> duh - it's a full H bridge - the circuit controls two motors
[01:08:36] <SWPadnos> like $5.50 each
[01:08:55] <jmkasunich> SENSE of the L6203 is the low side source terminal
[01:08:59] <Jymmm> SWPadnos Eh, but how often are you going to blow up a resistor?
[01:09:19] <jmkasunich> probably other resistors can be used, as long as they can handle the watts and are non-inductive
[01:09:35] <SWPadnos> well - DigiKey only has to220 (1-ohm) in 20W or 35W ratings
[01:09:59] <jmkasunich> if I was building it, I'd use several smaller resistors in parallel
[01:10:43] <jmkasunich> I don't know what voltage the L297 expects to see on it's sense pin
[01:11:07] <jmkasunich> the L6203 is rated 5A max, he has 0.5ohm, which would be 2.5V at 5A
[01:11:19] <jmkasunich> that's 12.5W, no wonder he needs TO-220 resistors
[01:11:38] <jmkasunich> most PWM controllers can use a lower sense voltage, around 1 or 1.5V
[01:11:45] <SWPadnos> datasheet at http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/ST%20Micro/Web%20Data/L297.pdf
[01:12:52] <SWPadnos> but that line is just dropped through the resistors to power ground - how does that sense anything?
[01:12:54] <jmkasunich> duh again, I just realized that two H bridges drives ONE stepper motor
[01:12:58] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is being dense today
[01:13:03] <SWPadnos> righto - I was going to say :)
[01:13:17] <jmkasunich> current flows out of the sense pin of the L6203, thru the resistor
[01:13:20] <SWPadnos> you're too used to servos
[01:13:35] <jmkasunich> that develops a voltage which goes to the L297 and is compared to Vref
[01:14:04] <SWPadnos> It seems silly to pump that much power through the sense pin though
[01:15:12] <jmkasunich> you mean the sense pin of the 6203? or the 297?
[01:15:22] <SWPadnos> the 297
[01:16:01] <SWPadnos> nevermind - the 6203 pumps all current *out* the sense pin (that's the drain on the internal FETS)
[01:16:03] <jmkasunich> the current doesn't go there
[01:16:12] <jmkasunich> source
[01:16:20] <SWPadnos> ground side :)
[01:16:24] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:16:38] <jmkasunich> I almost called it emitter - too much work with IGBTs
[01:17:06] <SWPadnos> (I got a 1 on that quiz in college, because I correctly filled in my name and the date - every other answer was opposite)
[01:17:40] <jmkasunich> Vref on the 297 is allowed to go from 0 to 3 volts, but if it was me, I'd use something like 1V for max current
[01:18:01] <Jymmm> jmkasunich any benefit for what he's doing?
[01:18:03] <jmkasunich> would require good layout for noise immunity, but much less watts in the sense resistors
[01:18:34] <jmkasunich> higher voltage across the sense resistors makes it less sensitive to switching noise
[01:18:50] <SWPadnos> and other noise in general
[01:18:58] <jmkasunich> and lets you use higher value resistors (for example if you can't find anything less than 1 ohm)
[01:19:12] <jmkasunich> but wastes power in the resistors
[01:19:36] <Jymmm> ah,ok
[01:19:37] <jmkasunich> for 5A at 1V full scale, you'd need 0.2 ohm
[01:19:46] <jmkasunich> at 5 watts
[01:20:05] <jmkasunich> I'd probably try to use 5 resistors in parallel, 1 ohm, 1watt each
[01:20:10] <Jymmm> 4 1ohm in parallel (close enough)
[01:20:19] <jmkasunich> (that would be pushing the power rating of the resistors tho)
[01:20:38] <jmkasunich> I don't know if the circuit designer was really going for 5A, or something less
[01:20:49] <Jymmm> no, he says 5a
[01:21:06] <jmkasunich> then his resistors need to handle 12.5W total at 5A
[01:21:15] <SWPadnos> the driver is only rated for 4A
[01:21:25] <Jymmm> WTF?! 0.005 ohm 60w resistor
[01:21:27] <SWPadnos> (at least the 6203)
[01:21:55] <jmkasunich> RMS is 4A, peak is 5A - didn't see that
[01:22:11] <SWPadnos> Ah
[01:22:34] <jmkasunich> RdsON is 0.3 ohms, and he's using a 0.5 ohm sense resistor - more loss in the resistor than in the Fets...
[01:22:54] <Jymmm> I really dont need that much power, but I've been reading that ppl have been blowing ther driver boards lately. thought the added "cushion" might be a nice thing
[01:23:14] <jmkasunich> yeah, overbuilding is usually a good thing
[01:23:54] <SWPadnos> well - I've seen a 25 micro-ohm 100W current sense resistor
[01:24:15] <Jymmm> I also like the fact his board is 4 axis, home, limit, and even 2 relay ports to boot
[01:24:16] <jmkasunich> 4-wire connections I assume
[01:24:27] <SWPadnos> on the resistor?
[01:24:29] <Phydbleep> Yeah, Design/Build for %300overload.
[01:24:36] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:24:46] <SWPadnos> if I needed to measure the resistance, absolutely
[01:24:50] <jmkasunich> yes, on the resistor
[01:25:01] <pfred1> yeah electronic component companies need your hard earned dollars!
[01:25:03] <SWPadnos> this was a 50mv full scale for a 2000amp supply
[01:25:04] <Phydbleep> It may rip your arm off, but it won't blow the drivers. :)
[01:25:18] <jmkasunich> a shunt then...
[01:25:30] <SWPadnos> it was in series with the load
[01:25:31] <jmkasunich> I don't normally refer to those as resistors (even tho they are)
[01:25:45] <SWPadnos> yeah - hard to see 6 parallel copper plates as a resistor :)
[01:25:47] <Jymmm> http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=218074&e_categoryid=360&e_pcodeid=68401
[01:25:58] <jmkasunich> and they are four wire connected... two honking bus connections for the load, two little screws for the wires to the 50mV meter
[01:25:58] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: Yeah, that's a shunt..
[01:26:15] <jmkasunich> bet they weren't really copper plates tho
[01:26:20] <SWPadnos> these were
[01:26:21] <jmkasunich> (unless it was a cheap shunt)
[01:26:31] <jmkasunich> copper has a 0.4% per degree C tempco
[01:26:44] <jmkasunich> good shunts use alloys that are more stable with temperature
[01:27:04] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I made a current shunt using some 18ga NiChrome I have
[01:27:05] <SWPadnos> Well - I didn't turn it around to look - I only saw it in-circuit ;)
[01:27:33] <jmkasunich> do not touch the busbars
[01:27:42] <jmkasunich> !
[01:27:54] <SWPadnos> I suspect that it was meant to be operated at after the temperature stabilized
[01:28:02] <jmkasunich> could be
[01:28:10] <SWPadnos> yeah - these guys have water-cooled output bus bars
[01:28:20] <Phydbleep> Do not touch the busbars with anybody, anything or anybodies anything..
[01:28:27] <jmkasunich> what kind of equipment
[01:28:31] <SWPadnos> unless you *really* don't like them
[01:28:50] <jmkasunich> I have a pic at work, gotta bring it home and post it
[01:28:50] <SWPadnos> a bigass power supply - probably for electroplating of some sort
[01:29:13] <Jymmm> jmkasunich : So, overall... Do yo uthink this guys design is pretty good?
[01:29:32] <SWPadnos> if you don't mind websites with audio - http://www.dynapower.com/
[01:29:37] <jmkasunich> power configuration arrangement for the 2000HP dyne in Wisconsin - a wall covered with busbars and 500MCM cable
[01:30:19] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: hard to say... in power circuits, a lot depends on the layout and strays... that's what separates the men from the boys, IM(NS)HO
[01:30:52] <jmkasunich> duh, there is a pic of the board
[01:30:56] <SWPadnos> if it works well, and is fairly immune to failure from semi-unexpected sources, then it's a good design
[01:31:05] <SWPadnos> otherwise it's crap
[01:31:06] <jmkasunich> nice wide traces
[01:31:26] <SWPadnos> that looks like ground plane
[01:31:59] <SWPadnos> I can't really see the space between the resistor pads and the plane area
[01:32:10] <jmkasunich> perhaps... again, I'd need to see the layout close up to know exactly what he did
[01:32:50] <Jymmm> jmkasunich : Fair enough. I just like the idea IF I blew something up I can have a spare on hand or repair it.
[01:32:51] <jmkasunich> I would probably have placed the resistors a little closer to the power chips, same with the main cap (although he might have other caps closer, SMT ones on the bottom of the board
[01:33:15] <Jymmm> jmkasunich there are caps on the bottom
[01:33:34] <SWPadnos> He may have done the spacing for heat reasons
[01:33:44] <jmkasunich> good point
[01:33:45] <SWPadnos> (more copper as a heatsink)
[01:33:54] <jmkasunich> he has a 0.1 per driver chip
[01:34:04] <jmkasunich> 0.1uF that is
[01:34:28] <jmkasunich> hard to judge if that's enough, I'm not used to looking at such low power stuff
[01:34:34] <SWPadnos> if only he had put the PCB and SCH files in the zip file - he used the same software I have :)
[01:34:52] <jmkasunich> (this board doesn't have enough output current to use as a gate driver on our stuff!)
[01:34:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:35:23] <SWPadnos> do you sometimes get "clunking" or "thunking" from large thyristors?
[01:35:43] <jmkasunich> haven't used thyristers in a while
[01:35:50] <SWPadnos> ah
[01:35:53] <jmkasunich> if you get enough amps flowing, anything will make noise
[01:36:25] <jmkasunich> but usually there are other things around making more noise, so it;s hard to tell
[01:36:44] <SWPadnos> yeah - there was a not-quite-regular but not-quite-random thunking in the last large machine I was involved with there
[01:36:55] <jmkasunich> that sounds strange
[01:37:01] <SWPadnos> (the 4MW one I mentioned a few weeks ago)
[01:37:06] <jmkasunich> I'd expect 60Hz, or some harmonic of that
[01:37:11] <SWPadnos> nope
[01:37:22] <SWPadnos> it was stuttery - like a large contactor
[01:37:26] <SWPadnos> but that wasn't it
[01:37:51] <jmkasunich> that's the kind of noise I would not step closer to in an attempt to hear it better ;-)
[01:37:54] <SWPadnos> people theorized that it was the transformers or the very large caps
[01:38:04] <SWPadnos> nope - not with a 13200 volt input
[01:38:13] <jmkasunich> yeah, the caps beginning to break down!
[01:38:35] <SWPadnos> they were huge caps - I think they were 1300V, 16000 uF
[01:38:52] <SWPadnos> (the output caps, that is)
[01:39:03] <jmkasunich> if I hear random or sporadic noises in one of our drives, I shut it down first and speculate about the cause later
[01:39:16] <jmkasunich> those are some serious caps
[01:39:26] <jmkasunich> series/parallel banks of electrolytics?
[01:39:35] <SWPadnos> that was what we did, but some other guy came over and said "that thunking is normal for these 1000amp thyristors"
[01:39:40] <SWPadnos> yes
[01:40:09] <jmkasunich> we run 10,800uF at 1200V rated (1000V operating) in our latest drives
[01:40:10] <SWPadnos> the supply was 2500V/2300A
[01:40:20] <jmkasunich> 20,000uF really, cause there are two banks in parallel
[01:40:30] <SWPadnos> thse were a bit closer - 1200-1250 operating, 1300 rating
[01:40:42] <jmkasunich> living dangerously they are
[01:40:44] <SWPadnos> there were 8 in there, I believe
[01:41:09] <SWPadnos> well - they have some very good physicists there - I'm sure they went through the calculations
[01:41:43] <jmkasunich> physicists! they probably assumed ideal components.... you need engineers, not physicists
[01:41:58] <SWPadnos> these guys never assume anything :)
[01:42:00] <jmkasunich> 1300V caps, aren't
[01:42:35] <SWPadnos> it may have beed a 2300V, 1800A supply - I think they just had a few percent of headroom
[01:42:40] <SWPadnos> ben
[01:42:41] <SWPadnos> been
[01:42:43] <SWPadnos> argh
[01:42:54] <SWPadnos> That must be it, because I do remember the 4MW rating
[01:43:08] <SWPadnos> the rest was just DSP A/D counts to me :)
[01:43:21] <jmkasunich> that's dangerous
[01:43:47] <SWPadnos> what?
[01:43:54] <jmkasunich> I've met too many software folks for whom everything was just A/D counts
[01:44:19] <SWPadnos> heh - I was quite aware of the rest of the machine
[01:44:32] <SWPadnos> I'm paranoid when there's death potential in my software
[01:44:59] <SWPadnos> (even injury potential triggers my paranoia)
[01:45:07] <jmkasunich> don't get me wrong, I've worked with several who were very aware of what they were doing, but some....
[01:45:17] <SWPadnos> yeah - I know the type
[01:45:27] <SWPadnos> in fact, one I know was actually a hardware guy :)
[01:45:40] <SWPadnos> solder solder solder - look!
[01:45:46] <SWPadnos> oops - smoke. Huh.
[01:45:59] <SWPadnos> Are you hurt bad?
[01:46:00] <jmkasunich> we had one guy who didn't understand that running the blowers while the field winding of the motor is energised isn't optional
[01:46:33] <SWPadnos> (well I don't understand that either, but I'm not working on that project either ;) )
[01:46:38] <jmkasunich> when someone told him his motor was smoking, his first reaction wasn't to kill power, he walked out to see for himself
[01:46:49] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:47:05] <SWPadnos> I've just been trying to figure out why the smoke keeps coming out of my light controller
[01:47:14] <jmkasunich> what kind of lights?
[01:47:28] <SWPadnos> many LEDs for the effects in a play
[01:47:42] <SWPadnos> I was testing SOT23 transistors with 1A current
[01:48:00] <jmkasunich> many as in replacing overhead incandescents? or just some kind of in-scene gadget?
[01:48:08] <SWPadnos> finally got it - I had misconfigured the output ports on the microcontroller - the base was being driven with a 50k pull-up
[01:48:16] <jmkasunich> oops
[01:48:18] <SWPadnos> in-scene, but in place of incandescent
[01:48:42] <SWPadnos> yeah - an almost-on transistor with 24V across it will tend to dissipate more than 350 or 650 mW
[01:49:05] <jmkasunich> 5V/50K = 0.1mA, times beta of 150 or so is 15mA * 24V = 360mW
[01:49:48] <SWPadnos> the funny thing was that it still worked - the first transistors were darlingtons, so the 0.1 mA base current was enough to get an amp through the transistors
[01:50:07] <SWPadnos> the second ones I tried had a beta in the 400 range, so the 0.1 was 40 mA = oops
[01:50:32] <jmkasunich> where was the 50K pullup? inside the uP?
[01:50:43] <SWPadnos> yep - they were configured as inputs
[01:50:58] <SWPadnos> and the pull-up was for eliminating external pull-up resistors
[01:51:25] <jmkasunich> I would probably have a 1K from base to ground, and a 2K or so from base to output pin
[01:51:37] <jmkasunich> that means you need about 0.6mA just to turn on
[01:52:02] <SWPadnos> That would have helped a little (but then Iwould have wondered why the LEDs never lit :) )
[01:52:05] <jmkasunich> and with say 4.5V out, you'll draw about 2mA from the chip, delivering 1.4mA to the transistor
[01:52:33] <jmkasunich> you would have wondered, but the transistors would be fine
[01:52:37] <SWPadnos> With the new transistors, I actually need up to 25 mA into the base
[01:52:49] <jmkasunich> (I try to design hardware to be "software proof")
[01:52:57] <SWPadnos> well - they're really cheap, and too small to severely damage the board
[01:53:10] <jmkasunich> your uP can deliver that at it's output pins?
[01:53:13] <SWPadnos> (especially when we have two people watching them like hawks)
[01:53:27] <SWPadnos> yep - source 20 or 25, sink 25 or 30
[01:53:53] <jmkasunich> marginal then, if you need 25
[01:54:18] <jmkasunich> did you have a series base resistor?
[01:55:00] <SWPadnos> yes - 220 or 390 ohm - I haven't made the final decision yet
[01:55:06] <SWPadnos> I may not need 25mA
[01:55:33] <jmkasunich> I'd be tempted to go back to the darlingtons ;-)
[01:56:11] <SWPadnos> well - they have a Vce(sat) of 1V (or so they say)
[01:56:28] <SWPadnos> at 1A, that's a watt, which is over the 350 mw dissipation spec
[01:56:36] <jmkasunich> ah, that's right... the Vce will kill ya
[01:56:52] <SWPadnos> the others have a Vce(sat) of 0.2 V (less, as measured by me), and have a 650mw dissipation spec
[01:57:05] <SWPadnos> plus they're 2A parts, used for 1A
[01:57:19] <SWPadnos> (vs. 1.2A parts, used for 1A)
[01:57:31] <jmkasunich> what is guaranteed minimum beta at 1A?
[01:58:02] <SWPadnos> 200 min - so I only need 5mA
[01:58:06] <SWPadnos> 400 typical
[01:58:20] <jmkasunich> so where does 25mA come from? driving more than one?
[01:58:24] <SWPadnos> the micor can source 80 mA (!)
[01:58:28] <SWPadnos> micro
[01:58:57] <jmkasunich> can, maybe... should, not really
[01:59:12] <jmkasunich> what is Vout_hi when sourcing 80mA
[01:59:13] <SWPadnos> 80mA per pin, max of 500mA for the total device
[01:59:17] <SWPadnos> 3V
[01:59:27] <jmkasunich> supply is 5? or 3.3?
[01:59:41] <SWPadnos> 5V supply - it can't hold it that high at 80 mA
[01:59:58] <jmkasunich> so 2V drop at 80mA is 160mW (per pin)
[02:00:17] <SWPadnos> yeah - as you said - not recommended (for long periods)
[02:00:34] <SWPadnos> I need to keep it low anyway because there are 16 channels per chip
[02:00:49] <jmkasunich> each channel drives only one 1A transistor?
[02:00:54] <SWPadnos> (plus I hate to blow up expensive microcontrollers)
[02:01:34] <SWPadnos> yep - there are 16 channels, each has one 1A (or so) transistor, each "string" of LEDs is 75 mA, so there can be roughly 15 strings of 5,6, or 11 LEDs per channel
[02:01:49] <SWPadnos> (depends on the color)
[02:02:04] <SWPadnos> and it's all PWM brightness controlled, in software
[02:02:47] <jmkasunich> assuming 2V drop at 80mA then the Ron in the micro is about 25 ohms... Vbe is about 0.8 or so
[02:03:28] <SWPadnos> I'm just looking at the curves in the datasheet - it's just under 80 mA at 3V Voh
[02:03:32] <jmkasunich> (5V-0.8) = 4.2 / 6mA = 700 ohms for the series resistor
[02:03:58] <jmkasunich> less the 25 ohms internal resistance, means 675 or so external, use 680 maybe
[02:04:29] <jmkasunich> the extra 1mA (6 instead of 5) is for the 1K base-emitter resistor that keeps leakages or whatever from turning things partly on
[02:05:02] <jmkasunich> thats a lot of LEDs... what are you lighting up?
[02:05:11] <SWPadnos> the pins are driven both high and low - they aren't floating (since I've fixed the software)
[02:05:22] <SWPadnos> several things - the play is "Cinderella"
[02:05:35] <SWPadnos> we have a pumpkin that grows, and has several effects in it
[02:05:35] <jmkasunich> anal designer... what about before the uP initializes, or as it shuts down
[02:06:06] <SWPadnos> guaranteed to be hi-Z during reset
[02:06:07] <jmkasunich> granted, for LEDs it doesn't matter.... I'm more used to things like IGBT that simply must not fire, regardless of the SW state
[02:06:26] <SWPadnos> yes - for that type of application, there would be double the components on the board
[02:07:04] <jmkasunich> long wires from LEDs to driver board?
[02:07:18] <SWPadnos> has a brown-out detect, set for 2.7V - if the supply is that low, then there's no supply
[02:07:39] <SWPadnos> nope - roughly 6 inches to a foot for the pumpkin, a few feet in the carriage (that the pumpkin turns into)
[02:07:53] <jmkasunich> ok, the controller is inside the prop...
[02:08:00] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:08:28] <SWPadnos> the controller and drive transistors (and a switching power supply on the boars, for 5V) are inside the pumpkin with a couple of car batteries for power
[02:08:34] <SWPadnos> board
[02:08:47] <jmkasunich> car batteries?
[02:08:51] <jmkasunich> messy
[02:09:07] <pfred1> for LEDs?
[02:09:16] <SWPadnos> we didn't want long cords, and the total of 16A is a pretty big load for batteries
[02:09:22] <jmkasunich> several hundred LEDs by the sound of it
[02:09:35] <SWPadnos> yes - we expect to have several hundres LEDs in there
[02:09:47] <pfred1> LED draws what like 12ma about?
[02:09:54] <SWPadnos> (I bought 3000 of them, so we have a few extras :) )
[02:09:55] <jmkasunich> shame you're flying to Fest... I have 4 old UPS batteries here, 12V, 17AH, sealed lead acid
[02:10:09] <SWPadnos> the play starts the 28th ;)
[02:10:20] <SWPadnos> I'm getting home at 11:00 opening night
[02:10:23] <SWPadnos> (PM)
[02:10:36] <jmkasunich> you acting, or just stage manager or something?
[02:10:56] <SWPadnos> I'm just doing the electronics for the effects - my best friend is the effects coordinator
[02:11:01] <jmkasunich> I see
[02:11:06] <SWPadnos> (which is how I got roped into it)
[02:11:26] <SWPadnos> http://www.lyrictheatrevt.org/
[02:11:32] <jmkasunich> you might want to look into sealed lead-acid... even new, they'd be under $100 for two, and safer/cleaner than car batteries
[02:11:56] <pfred1> walmart car batteries like $30 a pop
[02:12:04] <SWPadnos> Costco - $24.99
[02:12:13] <SWPadnos> Lawn and garden, actually
[02:12:25] <jmkasunich> sealed?
[02:12:27] <SWPadnos> but still 12.56 volts, and 350A or so
[02:12:38] <jmkasunich> deep cycle, or starting
[02:12:40] <SWPadnos> well - they say sealed, but they slosh when you move them
[02:12:53] <SWPadnos> "Cold Cranking Amps" - the only kind that matter here
[02:13:10] <jmkasunich> why, you aren't gonna light up for very long?
[02:13:12] <SWPadnos> They're small and light enough that I can pick them up with one hand
[02:13:27] <pfred1> no but they won't have an alternator kicking in either
[02:13:28] <jmkasunich> ok, not really car batteries, then, more like motorcycle batteries
[02:13:31] <SWPadnos> nope - but I wanted 24V for the efficiency (more LEDs per current limiting resistor)
[02:13:39] <SWPadnos> midway between
[02:14:04] <SWPadnos> the entire effect is onscreen for less than 3 minutes, actually
[02:14:09] <SWPadnos> onstage - sorry
[02:14:18] <SWPadnos> (so used to filming commercials)
[02:14:33] <jmkasunich> ah, then sounds like you have the simplest solution already
[02:14:54] <SWPadnos> yeah - we have a rolling cart with the pumpkin, so we didn't want any power cords trailing
[02:15:19] <jmkasunich> I hope you have a fuse or two
[02:15:20] <SWPadnos> (of course, there is the air sock for inflating the pumpkin)
[02:15:29] <SWPadnos> yeah - the transistors :)
[02:16:03] <jmkasunich> that assumes the fault current passes thru the transistors
[02:16:06] <pfred1> this is one awfully elaborate pumpkin we used to do it with a candle and a kitchen knife here
[02:16:16] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, this is like putting a fuse in front of a chopper drive - there are perfectly sane modes of operation that would be up to 20A
[02:16:23] <jmkasunich> chafed wires, etc, might have other plans
[02:16:30] <SWPadnos> but that would fry any circuit board trace in a heartbeat
[02:16:43] <jmkasunich> I was thinking just of something that would prevent wires or traces from going up in flames
[02:16:54] <SWPadnos> true - there will be inline fuses for the power, and the terminals will be well-covered
[02:16:55] <pfred1> heck that'd add to the effect
[02:17:15] <SWPadnos> yeah - as the cart goes up in flames, and the first person to shout "Fire" gets arrested :)
[02:17:22] <pfred1> lighted pumpkins are supposed to smoke a little
[02:17:37] <Phydbleep> Daddy, Why is the Great Pumkin shooting fire out his backside?
[02:17:46] <pfred1> he has gas!
[02:17:49] <SWPadnos> "I don't know, Billy - RUN"
[02:17:50] <jmkasunich> pumpkin flatulance
[02:18:06] <pfred1> Peter, Peter, pumpkin eater
[02:18:34] <SWPadnos> speaking of limit switches, I think I've reached my limit for tonight - still got to get several more effects working on this beast
[02:18:47] <jmkasunich> time for bed here too
[02:18:49] <SWPadnos> I'll see you guys later, if not at Fest
[02:18:57] <jmkasunich> good luck on the punkin!
[02:19:03] <SWPadnos> Thanks!
[02:19:15] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[02:19:41] <pfred1> reminds me of the christmas light cult on the Internet
[02:39:50] <jmkasunich> bedtime
[03:15:52] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep returns after ambushing an unwary wall with a liter of paint.
[03:21:03] <Jymmm> who won?
[03:26:28] <Jymmm> who won.... Phydbleep or the wall?
[03:28:55] <Phydbleep> Me.
[03:29:05] <Phydbleep> I have met the wall and it is white.
[03:29:08] <Jymmm> * Jymmm doubts it! =)
[03:29:39] <Jymmm> but so is the carpet and tthe dog too
[03:29:50] <Phydbleep> Well.. Mostly white... I need to go get another gallon of paint tomorrow..
[03:30:26] <Phydbleep> Nope.. I didn't drip any, and I wouldn't let the dog drink any.
[03:30:39] <Jymmm> not drink.... WEAR =)
[03:31:32] <Phydbleep> Never, I wanted rid of the ugly dark crap brown that it was painted with in there.
[03:32:57] <Phydbleep> I had 1 liter of paint and a bunch of wall still to paint, I've got spray paint for the dog. :)
[03:43:55] <Jymmm> Phydbleep go for camo canine
[03:45:37] <Phydbleep> Naw, Bright pink with flourescent green spots.
[03:45:52] <Jymmm> that works.... dont forget the black light
[03:45:57] <Phydbleep> There's a lot of drunks in the neighborhood.
[03:47:34] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm can you download this? http://www.lloydleung.com/spindle.dwg does it load?
[03:48:18] <Jymmm> seems the mime type is wrong. try using wget
[03:48:35] <A-L-P-H-A> well, I have it... I don't know why the mime type is wrong. that's my issue.
[03:49:05] <Jymmm> change the ext from .dwg to dwgs
[03:50:03] <Jymmm> wth you doin over there? it redirected me to the .dwg again
[03:50:45] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A is mod_rewrite being used?
[03:51:20] <A-L-P-H-A> I really don't think so... all I did was upload it as a binary file.
[03:51:50] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll just zip it, and see what happens then
[03:52:21] <Jymmm> Doesn't seem to think it's downloadable.... here' the http headers:
[03:52:22] <Jymmm> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
[03:52:22] <Jymmm> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:06:46 GMT
[03:52:22] <Jymmm> Server: Apache
[03:52:22] <Jymmm> X-Powered-By: The blood, sweat and tears of the fine, fine TextDrive staff
[03:52:22] <Jymmm> Served-By: TextDrive
[03:52:24] <Jymmm> Vary: Accept-Encoding
[03:52:26] <Jymmm> Connection: close
[03:52:28] <Jymmm> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
[03:52:58] <Jymmm> check the apache logs
[03:54:37] <A-L-P-H-A> not my server... I'll see what I can do. http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Highspeed_Spindle_Design_drafts/spindle.rar
[03:54:43] <A-L-P-H-A> that works.
[03:54:48] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... argh.
[03:56:58] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, thanks for the assistance.
[03:59:50] <Jymmm> Ah... I know why.... server defaults to delivering text/html and it doens't know what DWG is
[04:00:49] <Jymmm> .dwg application/acad
[04:00:50] <Jymmm> .dwg image/vnd.dwg
[04:00:50] <Jymmm> .dwg image/x-dwg
[04:00:54] <A-L-P-H-A> oh, so I have to do an .htaccess hing.
[04:01:10] <A-L-P-H-A> 'ight... I'll get the admins to add that stuff
[04:01:19] <Jymmm> http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:sDW433-C7OAJ:www.webmaster-toolkit.com/mime-types.shtml+mime+type+dwg&hl=en
[04:02:07] <Jymmm> I'd get the admins to add it in, htaccess for mime seems kludgy to me
[05:17:22] <alex_joni> morning guys
[05:19:16] <Jymmm> Hola
[05:19:26] <alex_joni> hey Jymmm
[05:33:14] <Phydbleep> Morning alex_joni :)
[05:33:27] <alex_joni> hey phydbleep
[05:33:36] <alex_joni> damn is that a bugger name...
[05:33:39] <alex_joni> does it mean smthg?
[05:35:06] <alex_joni> oh.. and what's Shifter?
[05:37:28] <Phydbleep> It means Phydeaux@Bleep, If it's what I think you're talking about it was a mod for Tribes 2.
[05:38:15] <alex_joni> right.. that leaves the question where does Phydeaux come from?
[05:39:41] <Phydbleep> It's usually not taken on a system... It's the Louisianna coon-ass spelling of Fido. :)
[05:39:54] <alex_joni> heh
[05:39:59] <alex_joni> lol
[05:40:03] <alex_joni> nice one
[05:40:13] <alex_joni> so you're from Louisianna?
[05:40:22] <Phydbleep> It's also an 8 character login which was the max for years.
[05:40:46] <Phydbleep> Nope, Just had the misfortune to attend school there.
[05:41:52] <alex_joni> right
[05:42:08] <Phydbleep> Whew.. Either someone just ran over a skunk or the neighbors got something good. :)
[05:42:36] <alex_joni> that bad?
[05:43:55] <Phydbleep> Real skunk, unhappy dog.
[05:44:34] <Phydbleep> Which is funny because I'm in the middle of town.
[05:46:30] <Jymmm> G'Night Folks!
[05:46:38] <Phydbleep> G'nite Jymmm.
[05:46:41] <Phydbleep> :)
[05:48:29] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: What are you set up to cut?
[05:50:25] <alex_joni> not cutting yet
[05:50:44] <Phydbleep> Ahh.. Blast! Foiled again..
[06:10:04] <Phydbleep> Is a 75mm disk too big for an encoder? 80mm square with housing, Good for 128 bit accuracy at 5mHz scan.
[06:12:01] <alex_joni> heh..
[06:12:07] <alex_joni> depends on what you use it for
[06:12:26] <alex_joni> I've seen 8mm 20000 IPR encoders ;)
[06:12:32] <Phydbleep> Absolute position sensing on a leadscrew.
[06:13:19] <Phydbleep> IPR?
[06:13:27] <alex_joni> impulses per rev.
[06:13:35] <alex_joni> or PPR
[06:13:40] <Phydbleep> Ahh... Film units?
[06:13:49] <alex_joni> I think glass
[06:14:19] <Phydbleep> Micro-lithographic process.
[06:14:29] <alex_joni> probably
[06:14:39] <alex_joni> didn't get a chance to look inside
[06:14:49] <alex_joni> I have some 2500 PPR on my desk
[06:14:53] <alex_joni> broken that is ;)
[06:14:59] <alex_joni> disk shattered
[06:15:06] <Phydbleep> These are printable on an inkjet @ 1200 dpi
[06:15:16] <alex_joni> coo
[06:15:27] <alex_joni> using Gray? or binary?
[06:15:52] <Phydbleep> Binary with a 1024 bit linear ccd for a sensor.
[06:15:57] <alex_joni> nice
[06:16:09] <alex_joni> but Gray is less problematic ;)
[06:16:15] <alex_joni> needs some more deconding
[06:16:29] <alex_joni> but it's less troubled by noise
[06:16:38] <Phydbleep> I could go higher with the count, but that would require a shrinky-dink disk or micro-lith.
[06:19:20] <Phydbleep> Well this is gooing to take decoding anyway, I'll look into Graycode.
[06:20:42] <alex_joni> gray code is set up to have always no more than one transition
[06:21:00] <alex_joni> in binary you may have 0111 -> 1000 (3 transitions)
[06:21:23] <alex_joni> in gray you have 101 -> 111 -> 110 -> 010 -> 011 .. etc
[06:21:46] <alex_joni> those are just plain examples ... not sure they are correct (I would need to look it up )
[06:22:03] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep can find a Gray code generator. :)
[06:22:11] <alex_joni> surely you could
[06:23:37] <Phydbleep> The imaging bit is a 20 pin dip with ~ 1" active area. I'd like to print the encoders on a 4800 dpi printer.
[06:23:39] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/emc2.gif: added a splash screen for emc2
[06:24:30] <Phydbleep> I'll be sure to look when I get it to run. :)
[06:24:39] <alex_joni> heh
[06:24:45] <alex_joni> emc2 should be pretty easy to run
[06:24:51] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep did not knnow that emc2 would not work on a bdi system.
[06:25:03] <alex_joni> well.. it should.. and it will
[06:25:23] <alex_joni> till then: http://www.robcon.ro/emc/splash-emc2-v3.jpg
[06:26:04] <Phydbleep> Cewl! :)
[06:26:10] <alex_joni> like it?
[06:26:21] <Phydbleep> Cewl! == Cool! :)
[06:28:25] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep tries to find a price for an Atmel TH7813A.
[06:28:46] <alex_joni> what's that?
[06:29:35] <Phydbleep> 1024x1 linear ccd..
[06:29:59] <Phydbleep> Or 512x2.. Need to check.
[06:30:31] <Phydbleep> It's at least 4x the res of the finished encoder.
[06:32:00] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/scripts/emc.run: enabled splash screen support
[06:33:15] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/tcl/bin/popimage: added popimage to the repository, it's a tcl script to pop an image (used for splash screen)
[06:33:20] <Phydbleep> I want an encoder that will handle all of the leadscrew on this SB.
[06:33:34] <alex_joni> how many turns do you need?
[06:33:52] <Phydbleep> 600? I think.
[06:33:59] <alex_joni> I have some 48 bit x 24 bit abs-encoders
[06:34:17] <Phydbleep> ?
[06:34:37] <Phydbleep> 48x24 or 48 & 24?
[06:34:52] <alex_joni> 48 x 24
[06:34:55] <alex_joni> 24 bit / turn
[06:34:59] <alex_joni> 48 bit for turns
[06:35:12] <alex_joni> 48 bit = a lot of turns
[06:35:24] <Phydbleep> Ah, Yeah, That was why I was going 128 bit.
[06:35:53] <alex_joni> 48 bit = 281474976710655
[06:35:57] <alex_joni> +/- 1
[06:35:59] <Phydbleep> 12 bits for turns and the rest for rotation
[06:37:02] <Phydbleep> Realisticly I see getting ~ 64 bit with this setup.
[06:40:11] <Phydbleep> Atmel TH7813A - 512x2 @ 25 mHz, They say 200 dpi usable.
[06:40:54] <Phydbleep> anonimasu! :)
[06:41:29] <alex_joni> gmorning an0n
[06:42:00] <anonimasu> morning
[06:42:59] <alex_joni> still got your emc2 working?
[06:43:04] <alex_joni> or is that at home?
[06:44:27] <anonimasu> yes
[06:44:30] <anonimasu> I am at home now
[06:44:39] <anonimasu> but I havent got the config set up entirely'
[06:45:01] <alex_joni> could you try it?
[06:45:14] <alex_joni> I added a splash.. was wondering if it works for others
[06:45:21] <alex_joni> cvs co first ;)
[06:45:26] <anonimasu> hm, can you wait until after 4:o clock?
[06:45:40] <alex_joni> sure
[06:45:47] <anonimasu> great
[06:45:52] <anonimasu> I'll try it after that :)
[06:46:10] <anonimasu> I found somthing sweet
[06:46:15] <anonimasu> "torsmo"
[06:49:22] <anonimasu> http://torsmo.sourceforge.net/
[06:53:06] <alex_joni> there's smthg even nicer
[06:53:15] <alex_joni> did you stumble upon lcdproc ?
[06:53:54] <alex_joni> http://lcdproc.omnipotent.net/
[06:57:53] <anonimasu> seen that..
[06:58:01] <anonimasu> but I cant carry around a lcd with my laptop
[06:58:11] <alex_joni> true...
[06:58:13] <anonimasu> :)
[06:58:17] <alex_joni> how about an USB-LCD?
[06:58:18] <alex_joni> :D
[06:58:56] <anonimasu> still not practical
[06:59:27] <anonimasu> I started hacking to get osx/beos icons in linux ;)
[06:59:27] <alex_joni> heh
[06:59:36] <anonimasu> yesterday
[06:59:41] <anonimasu> but I couldnt unpack them..
[06:59:43] <alex_joni> I want to get me one of those laptop-usb-lights
[06:59:46] <anonimasu> since they are in osx package format..
[06:59:52] <anonimasu> so I was going to boot beos via grub,.
[07:00:11] <anonimasu> but grub killed my lilo :) so I had to hack a whole lot to boot windows again
[07:00:36] <alex_joni> lol
[07:01:14] <anonimasu> hm, but I need a program that supports SVG rendering
[07:01:18] <anonimasu> to give myself icons
[07:01:42] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: You're still infected with Windose? Ewww.... 8-P
[07:01:47] <anonimasu> yeah
[07:01:49] <anonimasu> it wouldnt go away..
[07:02:01] <anonimasu> work needs windows..
[07:02:12] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has to keep 1 box with Windose networking.
[07:02:57] <Phydbleep> Same here.. But the networking is about all that's left of it.. XP-Lite and LiteStep cured most of it. :)
[07:03:27] <anonimasu> hehe
[07:03:27] <Phydbleep> And i've got Cygwin for an X layer. :)
[07:04:29] <alex_joni> Cygwin/X I presume
[07:04:32] <alex_joni> same here
[07:04:37] <alex_joni> running emc
[07:04:45] <alex_joni> through ssh -x
[07:05:13] <Phydbleep> 128 bit resolution should be plenty for anything under 10 feet of travel ??
[07:05:15] <alex_joni> although I have an doze compiled emc
[07:07:57] <Phydbleep> 16 for turns 48 for rotation, Doubled for redundency, should be plenty for anything hobbyist related.
[07:10:38] <Phydbleep> Would you pay $100 (US) a channel for an encoder/driver set? 120V 10A H-Bridge with 128 bit encoder and close loop controller?
[07:10:55] <anonimasu> 128 count encoder you mean?
[07:10:55] <Phydbleep> s/close/closed
[07:11:24] <Phydbleep> No, Well.. 64 bit.
[07:12:07] <Phydbleep> It's 128 bit total, but I'm doubling the encoder tracks.
[07:12:23] <anonimasu> how many lines does that equal to?
[07:12:26] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has no clue
[07:12:44] <Phydbleep> Buttloads. :)
[07:13:03] <Phydbleep> 200 dpi
[07:13:59] <Phydbleep> i may print the encoders and then have them xfered to filmstock.
[07:15:05] <anonimasu> how many lines per turn?
[07:16:15] <Phydbleep> Depends on how big the disks are..
[07:16:56] <anonimasu> over 1000 ?
[07:17:12] <Phydbleep> with a 100mm disk yes.
[07:17:47] <anonimasu> I'd pay for the drive to be honest
[07:17:49] <anonimasu> :)
[07:18:46] <Phydbleep> Cool.. Then my throwing out a set of plans to build it for ~$40 /channel would be really popular. :)
[07:19:16] <anonimasu> but I have drives already.. but if I were looking for drives
[07:19:59] <alex_joni> an0n: phydbleep is talking about an abs-encoder
[07:20:07] <alex_joni> 64 bit
[07:20:07] <anonimasu> alex_joni: ah
[07:20:09] <alex_joni> which is plenty
[07:20:24] <Phydbleep> I don't want to sell them.. I'll give the plans away to anyone who wants to make their own.
[07:20:28] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: serial or parallel connection?
[07:20:39] <alex_joni> 120V 10A is pretty much
[07:20:44] <alex_joni> why not use an gecko?
[07:20:49] <alex_joni> does 80V 20A
[07:21:06] <alex_joni> with an proper encoder it works like magic ;)
[07:21:15] <Phydbleep> 120/10 is what I can get MOSFETs for cheap.
[07:21:23] <alex_joni> right
[07:21:39] <alex_joni> p-type or n-type?
[07:21:46] <alex_joni> or mix both?
[07:21:57] <Phydbleep> Actually 200/15, mix.
[07:22:06] <alex_joni> ahh.. the easy setup ;)
[07:22:13] <alex_joni> did some myself
[07:22:37] <Phydbleep> The $12 for a spare set of mosfets approach. :)
[07:23:44] <Phydbleep> All chips WILL be socketed!
[07:24:14] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is sick of trying to find an SMD reflow station for repairs.
[07:25:00] <alex_joni> heh
[07:25:03] <alex_joni> use a mill ;)
[07:25:14] <alex_joni> chip em out ;)
[07:25:21] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep uses a hammer
[07:25:33] <alex_joni> that might damage the board
[07:25:43] <Phydbleep> And?
[07:25:49] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. :)
[07:26:20] <Phydbleep> Give me an excuse to replace the unrepairable POS.
[07:28:22] <Phydbleep> OK.. What I'm looking at is a system where you tell the unit the rate and the position and it goes there.. There's a master sync pulse from the spindle for threading.
[07:29:18] <anonimasu> will that work with "taps" or just threadmilling?
[07:29:47] <Phydbleep> You tell it the leadscrew pitch and length the first time you use it and it stores that and the absolute position in an FRAM during power-down.
[07:30:02] <Phydbleep> Should work with either.
[07:30:07] <anonimasu> hm, nice
[07:30:47] <Phydbleep> Looks like < $50 per channel in parts.
[07:31:19] <anonimasu> I abut that's just hardware > emc isnt it..
[07:31:22] <Phydbleep> That's for non-production quanities.
[07:34:08] <Phydbleep> That's just the built in functions.. emc would make it scream, It could offload some of the processing for steps/position keeping to the hardware.
[07:34:39] <anonimasu> hm ok
[07:34:49] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is thinking for emc2/hal
[07:34:53] <anonimasu> yep
[07:35:00] <anonimasu> I need to take another look at hal someday soon
[07:35:06] <anonimasu> laters work..
[07:37:28] <Phydbleep> Have fun. :)
[07:49:16] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: worst case 1600 PPR with a cd size encoder
[07:50:07] <Phydbleep> That's printing it on a clear CD in a cd printer @ 200 DPI. :)
[07:57:58] <alex_joni> lol
[07:58:01] <alex_joni> nice ideea
[08:04:18] <Phydbleep> 16 bit Gray code gives 100,000+ steps per rev.
[08:05:13] <Phydbleep> If you have room for the encoder wheels..
[08:07:56] <Phydbleep> Or a 35mm film stripe under glass for a linear unit. Cheap and easy to fix.. Get out the glass cutter, unroll the spare encoder film. :)
[08:09:10] <Phydbleep> It would take a 3 meter enlarger table for the contact print copies though.
[08:22:02] <Phydbleep> Best case with a 4800 dpi cd/dvd label printer on a clear cd is ~38,000 PPR.
[08:42:57] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... Woohoo! I just found 400 dpi 128 pixel sensors for <$5 each. I think les is going to be very happy tomorrow. :)
[08:56:30] <bowika> hi! does anybody know how to set the axis limits to infinite in emc2?
[08:56:53] <Phydbleep> Not I.
[08:57:28] <Phydbleep> bowika: alex_joni or anonimasu might.
[09:03:00] <alex_joni> greetings paul_c
[09:03:37] <Phydbleep> Morning paul_c :)
[09:04:20] <paul_c> and what of it ?? ;)
[09:04:31] <alex_joni> still funny?
[09:05:07] <Phydbleep> Is 2000 degrees/second (~360RPM) fast enough for a leadscrew for a mill?
[09:07:17] <Phydbleep> With 10/1 feeds it's 36 ipm, 20/1 =18 ipm
[09:08:09] <anonimasu> iab
[09:08:47] <Phydbleep> paul_c: Morning, It's the earliest part of your day, It should coincide with the onset of conciousness and movement. :)
[09:08:50] <anonimasu> hm 18*25.4mm=457mm/min
[09:09:29] <anonimasu> bowika: yeah you have min_limit and max_limit for each axis
[09:09:35] <anonimasu> inside of the config
[09:09:49] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: that's pretty slow
[09:10:39] <Phydbleep> That's with a 4096 step/rev resolution on ~ 50 mm disk.
[09:10:58] <anonimasu> ok
[09:11:44] <anonimasu> you are talking servos right?
[09:11:56] <Phydbleep> For <$10 per encoder set. :)
[09:12:22] <Phydbleep> APS absolute positioning system.
[09:12:33] <anonimasu> serovs?
[09:12:34] <Phydbleep> Closed loop servo?
[09:12:41] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:14:13] <Phydbleep> 46mm active diameter for the encoder wheel.
[09:16:49] <Phydbleep> and you can poll it @ 100Hz. :)
[09:18:50] <anonimasu> ok
[09:19:01] <Phydbleep> Which means 10 channels at an update rate of 10 Hz.
[09:19:07] <anonimasu> how do you expect to poll it?
[09:19:12] <anonimasu> with a PCI/ISA card?
[09:19:22] <Phydbleep> emc2?
[09:19:46] <Phydbleep> Parallel port as 8 serial lines.
[09:20:15] <Phydbleep> Parallel port as 10 serial lines.
[09:20:57] <anonimasu> hm.. ok
[09:21:18] <anonimasu> well if you are talking servos aim for way higher speed...
[09:21:39] <anonimasu> as high as you can :)
[09:21:58] <Phydbleep> Feed all of them back via I^2C to a pic or atmel as a data aggregator/controller and use emc2 for a head end.
[09:23:11] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: And just exactly what kind of miracles do you expect me to pull out of my ass for <$10 a channel?
[09:23:19] <Phydbleep> ROFLMAO!!!
[09:23:33] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: actually I dont expect you to pull anything out of your ass..
[09:23:56] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: I have servos, and I am going to buy a vital card within a couple of months just need to try converting the geckos to 0-10V amps
[09:24:38] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep teaches "The Procto-Theological School of Engineering"...
[09:24:48] <anonimasu> steppers & encoders would be way better I think
[09:25:12] <anonimasu> s/better/cheaper
[09:25:13] <anonimasu> :)
[09:25:17] <anonimasu> neat
[09:26:49] <Phydbleep> Like I said this is ~360 rpm at the sensor so your leadscrew pitch will set the final speed.
[09:27:15] <anonimasu> :)
[09:28:31] <alex_joni> an0n: that's pretty easy
[09:28:32] <Phydbleep> I'm sure that could be pushed to > 1200 rpm with a newer more expensive sensor array.
[09:28:38] <alex_joni> to convert the geckos for 0/10V
[09:28:44] <anonimasu> alex_joni: yep
[09:28:52] <anonimasu> I heard how yesterday
[09:28:54] <alex_joni> actually it's 0-5V
[09:28:56] <anonimasu> and I have a fried gecko laying around
[09:29:03] <alex_joni> for -10/10V
[09:29:11] <anonimasu> hm, really?
[09:29:14] <alex_joni> running 2.5V the gecko is stopped
[09:29:19] <alex_joni> running 5V full forward
[09:29:24] <Phydbleep> Does it taste like chicken?
[09:29:24] <alex_joni> running 0V full reverse
[09:29:28] <anonimasu> can you run em from a viral card?
[09:29:40] <Phydbleep> Sorry, coouldn't resist. :)
[09:29:40] <alex_joni> probably.. but an antivirus would be recommended
[09:29:45] <alex_joni> me neither
[09:29:48] <anonimasu> vital�!"#
[09:29:51] <alex_joni> lol
[09:29:55] <anonimasu> *grins*
[09:29:58] <alex_joni> you need some convertion
[09:30:10] <alex_joni> the vital outputs 0/10V and direction I think?
[09:30:34] <alex_joni> or is it 0/10 : 0V full reverse, 10V full forward
[09:30:35] <alex_joni> ?
[09:30:41] <anonimasu> 0-10v 5v stopepd I think..
[09:31:18] <anonimasu> stopped
[09:31:28] <alex_joni> then you need an opamp
[09:31:35] <alex_joni> to make that 0/10 into 0/5
[09:31:38] <anonimasu> lets see..
[09:31:40] <alex_joni> a simple divider
[09:31:42] <anonimasu> http://www.vitalsystem.com/motion/
[09:31:49] <anonimasu> Analog Outputs: �10V, 13-Bit Resolution, 8-Channels
[09:32:28] <alex_joni> it's +/- 10V
[09:32:38] <alex_joni> so you need to offset it a bit
[09:32:50] <alex_joni> make it 0/20V then divide it by 4
[09:32:51] <alex_joni> ;)
[09:32:52] <anonimasu> hm, I dont know how the gecko does it internally really..
[09:33:00] <anonimasu> bleh, I might aswell buy new drives then
[09:33:10] <alex_joni> the pin Mariss told me about is the input to the PWM
[09:33:35] <alex_joni> 0V full reverse, 2.5V stopped, 5V full forward
[09:33:45] <anonimasu> well it's all in the software I think..
[09:33:58] <alex_joni> no software there
[09:34:05] <alex_joni> it's hardware analog
[09:34:08] <anonimasu> isnt the vital card just a dumb card..
[09:34:17] <alex_joni> yeah
[09:34:25] <anonimasu> just outputs what emc tells it..
[09:34:28] <alex_joni> but .. if you output under 0V you damage your drive
[09:34:35] <alex_joni> so you need to take care that it won't
[09:35:00] <alex_joni> on the other hand.. if you have a 20V range and use only 5V you won't have much precision
[09:35:16] <alex_joni> if you take the whole 20V range and scale it analogically .. it's a bit better
[09:35:22] <alex_joni> depends on how it works for you
[09:35:30] <anonimasu> hm, ebay it is.
[09:35:40] <anonimasu> I'll find other use for the geckos
[09:36:04] <anonimasu> but it'll have to wait if I need new drives..
[09:37:50] <anonimasu> 650$ for the card.. and $100 per drive :)
[09:37:51] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Wait a bit and see how this project goes, I'm designing this to run PMDC motors or steppers.
[09:38:23] <anonimasu> I dont think it'd be too hard to design the amps myself..
[09:38:54] <Phydbleep> < $50 in parts per channel for the whole enchilada. :)
[09:39:20] <anonimasu> I wont get away without a vital however I do..
[09:39:31] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Why?
[09:40:01] <anonimasu> speed requirement
[09:40:53] <Phydbleep> Use a PCI dual LPT and multiplex it.. It will be a solid 8 megabit even for a crap card.
[09:41:26] <Phydbleep> Then if the card craps it's only $20 for a new one.
[09:42:01] <anonimasu> I dont like having my rapids set to 1500mm/min
[09:42:51] <anonimasu> when I have servos that should be able to move the machine at 5000mm/min..
[09:42:56] <anonimasu> or more :)
[09:43:11] <Phydbleep> That's for the $10 per channel encoders.. I'm still looking for a price on the faster imaging elements.
[09:43:56] <anonimasu> that's a nice bargain..
[09:44:24] <Phydbleep> That's a 128x1 linear sensor for <$5 in single lots.
[09:44:55] <Phydbleep> The faster one updates @ 25mHz and is 1024x1.
[09:50:28] <Phydbleep> looks like $12-$16 for the faster one.
[09:51:29] <anonimasu> ok
[09:53:44] <Phydbleep> So I'm guessing >$30 per encoder or >$80-$100 per 120V 20A drive channel with encoders for 1200rpm (6000mm/min to you)
[09:54:01] <Phydbleep> s/>$30/<$30
[09:54:21] <Phydbleep> D'Oh.. I got both of those backwards..
[09:54:27] <anonimasu> :)
[09:54:47] <Phydbleep> <$30 per encoder or <$80-$100 per drive channel
[09:55:34] <Phydbleep> the variance on the price is single or dual H-Bridges.
[09:56:02] <Phydbleep> Same board, just more big mosfets.
[09:59:06] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: When les comes in will you let him know I got it figured out?
[09:59:16] <anonimasu> yeah I can do that :)
[10:01:41] <Phydbleep> Hobbyist $50/channel Pro $100/channel, They should be able to run any PMDC/brush or stepper you throw at them.
[10:03:32] <Phydbleep> 4096 ppr for the 2" cheap one and "I dunno yet" for the expensive one.
[10:08:20] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... I'm going to have to make one of these encoders for the spindle on the lathe as a test... 0.087 degree accuracy..
[10:09:21] <anonimasu> :
[10:09:22] <anonimasu> :)
[10:12:18] <Phydbleep> Also, It will probably take a bigger disk to get more speed.. It should be <75mm for 10,000 degrees/second of rotation.
[10:19:28] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: One other way to do it on the cheap is not count every step on a long fast move, just count the revs on the leadscew and switch back to absolute mode for the last 10-12 revs.
[10:21:50] <anonimasu> hm..
[10:21:53] <Phydbleep> What can you mill (besides foam for castingsor light wood) @ 5 meters/min?
[10:21:54] <anonimasu> might work..
[10:22:00] <anonimasu> alu :)
[10:22:07] <anonimasu> www.datrondynamics.com
[10:22:10] <anonimasu> ^_^
[10:22:16] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is scared to look.
[10:22:23] <anonimasu> only in non ferrous though..
[10:22:40] <Phydbleep> But morbid curiosity has me..
[10:22:44] <anonimasu> haha
[10:22:45] <anonimasu> check the video
[10:23:50] <Phydbleep> Your company?
[10:23:53] <anonimasu> no
[10:23:54] <alex_joni> hey les
[10:23:57] <les> hi
[10:24:03] <Phydbleep> LES! :)
[10:24:04] <anonimasu> just a machine with decent speed
[10:24:45] <anonimasu> I'll be back in 2 hours
[10:26:38] <Phydbleep> I got it licked for < $50 per channel ... encoders are 4096 ppr @ 2000 degrees/second (~360rpm), Drivers are 120V 10A Dual H.. :)
[10:27:49] <Phydbleep> les: Does that fit your speed requirement for the cnc mill drivers?
[10:30:46] <Phydbleep> les: Or for $100/channel .. 10,000 deg/sec, 120V 20A.
[10:31:36] <Phydbleep> 10,000 deg/sec, 10,000+ ppr.
[10:33:18] <les> sorry had to hit the head
[10:33:26] <les> sounds very good
[10:33:50] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep was about to tell les to set down the cute girl and type.
[10:34:13] <les> heh
[10:34:37] <les> I take it that is 1024 x4?
[10:34:46] <Phydbleep> The cheap 4096 ppr unit is 50mm diameter.
[10:35:23] <Phydbleep> The 10k unit is 75mm
[10:35:33] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/Makefile: added a make tgz rule to produce a tarball of the sources
[10:37:09] <les> I am looking at CE certification if the amps are custom
[10:37:24] <les> it costs about $5000 per test
[10:37:41] <les> wich is fine as lone as one passes the first time!
[10:38:08] <les> if it fails it is another 5000 and so on
[10:38:12] <les> till it passes
[10:38:38] <alex_joni> les: bugger that
[10:38:50] <Phydbleep> It would. (Should) Opto-isolate it to hell and back and maintain the dead zone in the middle between the hi/lo voltage sections.
[10:39:20] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: opto-isolate it no matter what
[10:39:20] <les> yeah
[10:39:23] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has a nasty thought..
[10:39:29] <les> ?
[10:40:10] <Phydbleep> I wonder what the frequency reponse is for one of these opto-iosolated triac bicks.
[10:40:19] <Phydbleep> bricks
[10:40:29] <les> low
[10:41:16] <Phydbleep> 3-32V input to control a 120V 25A outpuit.. I've fed htem audio before and had it work.
[10:42:03] <les> so I understand....a ten amp 120v h-bridge and an encoder for $50 material cost?
[10:43:00] <Phydbleep> Plus the control/monitor microcontroller.
[10:43:08] <les> sure
[10:43:20] <les> this your circuit design?
[10:43:33] <Phydbleep> You can poll the encoder at 100Hz.
[10:44:17] <Phydbleep> It keeps running in between but the monitor micro is a slug.
[10:45:27] <les> encoder needs to turn at about 16*2 rps
[10:45:50] <Phydbleep> 75% mine, the rest is based on the reference design for the parts.
[10:46:30] <les> that counts...heck most of my circuit design is just tyin together ap notes heh
[10:47:03] <Phydbleep> The encoders are printed on a postscrip printer @2450 dpi. :)
[10:47:28] <alex_joni> I printed on a 12000 dpi printer once ;)
[10:47:33] <les> hmm
[10:47:48] <Phydbleep> Oohh... Nice encoders. :)
[10:48:17] <les> Well as one that designs commercial encoders...I know that the guts can be very cheap
[10:48:34] <Phydbleep> 99% of the system you could do in house and buy servo amps from somewhere. :)
[10:49:10] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: not encoders, it was a layout for some schematic
[10:49:30] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: ??
[10:49:43] <alex_joni> <alex_joni> I printed on a 12000 dpi printer once ;)
[10:49:45] <les> One trick I use is just a prismatic pattern molded in clear SAN
[10:49:48] <alex_joni> <Phydbleep> Oohh... Nice encoders. :)
[10:50:09] <les> it costs just about nothing
[10:50:13] <Phydbleep> OH, I was just saying it would print some nice ones. :)
[10:50:19] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok
[10:50:58] <alex_joni> anyways.. my thoughts are that it's bulloks to try to make a good encoder at home
[10:51:11] <les> usually yes
[10:51:13] <alex_joni> if you do it like les (for production) .. maybe
[10:51:28] <alex_joni> but just home-built, laser printed ...
[10:51:34] <alex_joni> depends on what you need it for
[10:51:45] <Phydbleep> les: Actually I think that a 48V 10A unit with encoders could be done for ~$30/channel.
[10:52:06] <alex_joni> material cost?
[10:52:11] <les> for parts right?
[10:52:13] <Phydbleep> Wholesale.
[10:52:23] <alex_joni> wholesale?
[10:52:30] <alex_joni> that means you do it for 10$
[10:52:36] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has connections in Hong Kong. :)
[10:52:40] <alex_joni> heh
[10:53:12] <alex_joni> but still ..
[10:53:12] <Phydbleep> There's a whole lot of little factories over there hurting for something to make.
[10:53:24] <alex_joni> 10$ parts, 10$ labour, 10$ profit
[10:53:36] <les> well I looked at stuff like the 6 amp or so ic that has the high side mosfets on the chip
[10:53:38] <alex_joni> parts must include PCB's, etc
[10:53:45] <les> low side is discrete
[10:53:56] <alex_joni> les: how much current?
[10:53:58] <Phydbleep> That's about it. for sitting on your butt and brainstorming for a while. :)
[10:54:01] <les> the ic is $3 or something in hundreds
[10:55:04] <Phydbleep> les: The H-bridges are discrete parts. easy to replace.
[10:55:14] <les> well rolling servo amps is something that needs to be looked at
[10:56:10] <les> I do have some experience in tooling up tronics
[10:56:16] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. I should dig out the modular design for the 200V 100A motor controller and add 2 mosfets.
[10:56:39] <les> the encoder circuit boards I did are at 100k/yr
[10:56:51] <les> we build them in chicago
[10:57:10] <les> the pick and place robots are blasting away
[10:57:18] <les> sounds like a machine gun
[10:57:22] <Phydbleep> The control pack is the size of a pack of cigs.. the heat sink is the size of a phone book.
[10:57:47] <les> phone book...hehe
[10:58:29] <les> I get away with about 3x5x1 heat sinks on 20 amp copleys
[10:58:34] <les> fan cooled
[10:58:52] <les> they ususally never even get warm
[10:59:19] <les> they only dissipate a few watts
[10:59:22] <Phydbleep> Seriously, It's a 200V 100A polyphase converter.. DC in 3 phase out... This uses passive cooling.. I hate noisy fans.
[11:00:00] <les> wow
[11:00:52] <les> 240 * 1.414 in 240 out is good...
[11:01:15] <Phydbleep> 320V in
[11:01:24] <Phydbleep> 240V out.
[11:01:49] <Phydbleep> Traction drive for a diesel-electric.
[11:02:54] <les> I see
[11:03:46] <les> well I have to work on my audio card a bit here....skype is not seeing the line inputs for some reason
[11:04:05] <les> and I need that to have some meetings
[11:04:36] <les> actually I need a better audio card
[11:04:55] <Phydbleep> I need to go fall over and get some sleep. I have to be up in 6 hours.
[11:05:06] <les> do that
[11:05:20] <les> tell me more about the amps after
[11:05:34] <Phydbleep> les: I'll get with you later and show you the design notes I'm working from.
[11:05:41] <les> ok cool
[11:05:51] <Phydbleep> Cool, That works..
[11:06:14] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep falls over and goes "Thud"
[11:06:18] <Phydbleep> Thud
[11:06:25] <Phydbleep> G'nite. :)
[11:14:39] <paul_c> Hi Ray
[11:14:40] <CIA-9> 03rumley * 10documents/scratch.txt: Working bugs out of my understanding of TortoiseCVS. Moving scratch.txt back to 'newline' line endings, after an inadvertant modification to CR-LF by yours truly.
[11:19:45] <rayh> Hey Paul.
[11:22:43] <alex_joni> hey ray
[11:23:00] <alex_joni> rayh: was reading a bit from the handbook today
[11:23:12] <rayh> Hi Alex.
[11:23:33] <alex_joni> it's a bit outdated ;) (to put it nicely)
[11:23:57] <rayh> Um... Yes.
[11:26:50] <alex_joni> is it still usefull? or will we replace it with the wiki?
[11:27:43] <rayh> I can't imagine someone wanting to use the wiki for all that range of info.
[11:28:04] <rayh> Although the wiki is certainly a bit more editable.
[11:28:09] <alex_joni> heh .. yeah
[11:28:20] <alex_joni> where's all the data from the handbook?
[11:28:24] <les> ok the problem with skype was that it automatically selects mic in...I am using line in
[11:28:24] <alex_joni> latex on CVS?
[11:28:39] <les> any one have skype?
[11:28:50] <alex_joni> * alex_joni used skype a bit
[11:29:12] <les> I need to call someone for a sound check
[11:29:19] <alex_joni> humm.. ok
[11:29:26] <alex_joni> let me put my headphones on
[11:29:29] <les> k
[11:29:54] <les> contact name?
[11:30:04] <alex_joni> alex_joni
[11:30:11] <les> k
[11:35:53] <les> good we had an ok talk
[11:36:01] <les> seems to be working ok
[11:37:19] <les> I have this set up with a dirctional mic so no headset is needed
[11:37:25] <alex_joni> nice
[11:37:39] <alex_joni> I had to use the headset because it's a full office around here
[11:37:49] <alex_joni> it's a bit too noisy ;)
[11:38:09] <alex_joni> but other than that it usually works ok for me too (laptop speakers & mic)
[11:38:13] <les> hopefully you did not hear an echo of his voice from the speakers
[11:38:28] <les> yes it sounded like lots of people were around
[11:39:10] <alex_joni> heh.. yeah
[11:39:31] <rayh> alex_joni: The master doc's for all handbooks are in sf
[11:39:44] <rayh> documents/lyx
[11:39:56] <les> I need a bit more gain here...have a scope hooked up to the card
[11:40:34] <alex_joni> heh.. I think that's a bit overkill for a microphone :D
[11:40:46] <alex_joni> I hope my accent wasn't too bad ;)
[11:41:43] <alex_joni> anyways.. going to my second job now
[11:43:21] <les> sounded fine
[11:44:42] <alex_joni> nice talking to you ;)
[11:45:05] <les> same here
[11:45:25] <alex_joni> I'll be around later this evening
[11:45:35] <alex_joni> gotta install some 220V plugs now
[11:46:08] <alex_joni> our company is getting a new office building, I need to rewire everything
[11:46:13] <les> I needed to set this up because I am the advisor for univ. of illinois mech eng senior design projct
[11:46:25] <les> enjoy the wiring!
[11:46:28] <alex_joni> thx
[11:46:44] <alex_joni> bye
[11:58:59] <rayh> Hi tom.
[12:01:58] <les> hmm was checking the snail mail
[12:02:12] <les> got a letter from european patent office
[12:02:21] <les> another one issued!
[12:02:29] <rayh> toms: The command is ./generic.run -ini smithy.ini
[12:53:53] <A-L-P-H-A> heh, I just asked out my 21 year old neightbour. :D
[12:54:18] <CIA-9> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/emcstepper.c: Changed the stepping types so that they match the current docs.
[12:57:41] <les> girl next door eh?
[12:58:19] <les> You should ask her IN...not out
[12:59:17] <A-L-P-H-A> les... <shrug> will work on that.
[12:59:30] <A-L-P-H-A> she's a pretty girl. pretty down to earth.
[13:02:41] <les> well great
[13:03:16] <rayh> A-L-P-H-A: Gotta watch those earthy kinds.
[13:03:31] <rayh> Married to one 39 years now.
[13:03:34] <les> I'm old now but did the neighbor girl thing a bit.
[13:03:39] <les> Married one.
[13:03:52] <A-L-P-H-A> married the neighbour?
[13:03:57] <les> yes
[13:04:23] <les> so watch out heh
[13:04:25] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[13:04:33] <A-L-P-H-A> marriage is far from my mind.
[13:04:41] <les> I hear you
[13:05:06] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm 25, single... and I like it this way... for the time being.
[13:05:32] <les> yup
[13:06:32] <les> I also married a girl I met on msn
[13:06:43] <les> DON"T DO THAT
[13:06:54] <les> heh
[13:07:16] <A-L-P-H-A> internet dating... I met some girl like that too... but I never married her... though she was pregnant with my kid... [terminated].
[13:07:29] <les> heh
[13:07:51] <A-L-P-H-A> <-- not a father, as of yet.
[13:08:01] <les> I am.
[13:08:01] <A-L-P-H-A> but I do know my fish swim. So that's good to know.
[13:08:13] <les> yeah
[13:08:55] <A-L-P-H-A> termination wasn't my choice, but I would have been leaning towards that... as the ex was still in university.
[13:09:22] <les> I am looking in the USPTO to see how much my name is used in vain
[13:09:49] <les> peculiar because I got a letter from the european patent office today
[13:10:00] <les> but the us patent has not issued
[13:10:08] <les> or I can't find it
[13:10:22] <les> or I threw away the wrong mail
[13:10:36] <les> patent letters look like junk mail
[13:10:41] <A-L-P-H-A> les, that could not be good. :)
[13:10:59] <anonimasu> hello
[13:11:06] <A-L-P-H-A> hey anonimasu.
[13:11:19] <anonimasu> how's it going?=
[13:11:22] <A-L-P-H-A> good.
[13:11:28] <les> I guess the european on has issued
[13:11:32] <les> I think
[13:11:39] <les> it's the encoder.
[13:11:41] <A-L-P-H-A> good = great,
[13:12:03] <A-L-P-H-A> les... et un encoder pour?
[13:12:27] <les> ?? ha
[13:12:45] <SWP_Away> un encoder pour encoding
[13:12:50] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[13:13:12] <A-L-P-H-A> what's the encoder for?
[13:13:14] <les> no...it has not issued...only applied
[13:13:23] <A-L-P-H-A> patent pending?
[13:13:28] <les> it is a throttle position sensor
[13:13:34] <SWPadnos> "Your application has issued to the reviewer"
[13:13:51] <anonimasu> ah
[13:13:52] <les> This is a designation of inventor document
[13:13:52] <anonimasu> nice
[13:13:53] <SWPadnos> s/reviewer/examiner/
[13:13:56] <A-L-P-H-A> isn't there already such things? like in my car?
[13:14:07] <anonimasu> it's probably better and cheaper..
[13:14:08] <les> sure
[13:14:16] <A-L-P-H-A> so, prior art?
[13:14:18] <SWPadnos> this one is Different (tm) :)
[13:14:22] <les> but not with guts that cost $2.50
[13:14:24] <anonimasu> ^_^
[13:14:27] <cradek> they're just a potentiometer now
[13:14:36] <les> yeah
[13:14:37] <anonimasu> les: I meant the new ones
[13:14:41] <les> mine is optical
[13:14:54] <anonimasu> contact free..
[13:15:00] <cradek> the current ones tend to wear out around the idle position
[13:15:03] <les> yes contact free
[13:15:22] <SWPadnos> the black blob with the coppery PC board in one of the photos you see during BDI installation :)
[13:15:34] <anonimasu> heh
[13:15:37] <les> yup that is it!
[13:15:41] <anonimasu> in sweden you couldnt apply for a patent for somthing like that
[13:15:45] <anonimasu> since you've shown it already
[13:16:00] <anonimasu> stupid rules
[13:16:09] <SWPadnos> as long as the patent is applied for before it's shown, you're OK
[13:16:23] <les> let me check designated states on this paper...
[13:16:28] <les> yeah sweden
[13:16:50] <les> well lets just say that the image is something else
[13:16:51] <SWPadnos> This sounds more like the system used in the original "wah-wah" pedal
[13:17:02] <SWPadnos> "The image is something else"
[13:17:06] <SWPadnos> (how was that?)
[13:17:07] <les> haha
[13:17:12] <Jymmm> CNCGuitar?
[13:17:12] <anonimasu> haha
[13:17:16] <anonimasu> sweden is stupid ;)
[13:17:21] <anonimasu> somtimes
[13:17:25] <anonimasu> and somtimes great
[13:17:31] <les> yeah my volume pedal is optical I think
[13:17:35] <SWPadnos> though the awh-wah pedal used a single optical stripe of varying intensity, rather than encoder-type technology
[13:17:40] <SWPadnos> wah-wah
[13:17:43] <anonimasu> I like contactless things
[13:17:46] <anonimasu> unbreakable..
[13:18:10] <Jymmm> anonimasu contactless CNC ?
[13:18:16] <SWPadnos> s/unbreakable/doesn't wear out in normal use/
[13:18:22] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:18:41] <SWPadnos> plasma, waterjet, and edm are all "contactless" CNC
[13:18:55] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[13:19:01] <anonimasu> I didnt talk about cnc :)
[13:20:31] <les> I can say cnc is very handy for making guitars
[13:20:38] <les> especially inlay
[13:20:51] <les> great for mother of pearl
[13:20:53] <anonimasu> :)
[13:21:18] <les> and rough carving tops
[13:21:36] <les> final shaping is scrape and tap and listen
[13:22:07] <rayh> Dan Falck did inlays with EMC years ago.
[13:22:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos : quit mucking up my poor attempt at humor will ya! =)
[13:23:08] <SWPadnos> sorry
[13:23:20] <anonimasu> * anonimasu noda
[13:23:21] <anonimasu> nods
[13:24:04] <Jymmm> I meant to ask you guys.... Is there a vertical mill with the precision of a sherline, but slightly larger out there?
[13:25:10] <SWPadnos> Bridgeport
[13:25:29] <rayh> I thought some of pitching a bridge mill to Sherline.
[13:25:35] <SWPadnos> oh - *slightly* larger :)
[13:25:53] <andyg> hello
[13:25:58] <SWPadnos> Which reminds me - the Shoptask mills are pretty good in that size range
[13:26:09] <rayh> You could prototype a bridge sherline
[13:26:30] <rayh> With three of their long sliders and a Z.
[13:26:57] <rayh> Or could gantry the same setup.
[13:27:12] <anonimasu> hm, I dont think a gantry would be bad at all..
[13:27:17] <rayh> You'd get about 10x10x8
[13:28:42] <Jymmm> doesn't seem like a noticable differnce
[13:29:21] <les> Perhaps I will have a machine to offer
[13:29:59] <SWPadnos> ugly yellow website, but - http://www.shoptask.com/
[13:30:39] <SWPadnos> they have "scratch-and-dent" specials for $2195 instead of $2995
[13:31:17] <SWPadnos> They're also in Vegas - you could drive out and pick up the machine yourself (bring a friend - they're 700 pounds)
[13:31:36] <rayh> Gotta give www.smithy.com equal time.
[13:31:48] <Jymmm> I was thinking instead of a 35 lb machine, more like a 150 lb one, not a 900 lb monster
[13:32:02] <SWPadnos> do you want to mill metals?
[13:32:18] <les> My prelim specs are 20x20x4... .001 repeatbility....1000 ipm rapids...under $10k
[13:32:26] <Jymmm> SWPadnos can't I mill with sherline?
[13:32:26] <les> but not a hobby machine
[13:32:32] <Jymmm> SWPadnos can't I mill metals with sherline?
[13:32:39] <les> sure
[13:32:47] <rayh> But your are not talking sherline precision unless you hit the high end
[13:33:12] <SWPadnos> you can, but if you increase the size of the work, you also have to increase the size of the machine - both for physical fit reasons, and added stiffness to keep the same precision
[13:33:40] <Jymmm> SWPadnos from 35 lb (sherline) to 150 lb isn't an increase in size?
[13:33:44] <SWPadnos> so the mass of the machine goes up as the square or cube of the work envelope
[13:33:47] <les> I wonder what class headstock bearings the sherline uses
[13:34:43] <les> one old trick is to use abec1 deep groove as angulars...
[13:34:51] <rayh> They have a 12k spindle.
[13:35:07] <les> then machine spindle tapers etc in place
[13:35:23] <rayh> I believe the bearings are the same as the standard
[13:35:26] <SWPadnos> hey - the Smithy stuff looks pretty cool
[13:35:30] <les> so it is VERY accurate as long as you don't change out the bearings
[13:36:09] <les> micron level runout
[13:36:44] <les> I even do that on larger machines
[13:37:13] <les> I took a very light grind on the 5c collet holder on the boxford in place
[13:37:14] <rayh> Smithy's 1240 is EMC.
[13:37:51] <les> dial indicator does not move when checking concentricity
[13:38:53] <rayh> Hi Tony. How's the router?
[13:39:02] <les> 1240? let me hunt that up
[13:39:20] <SWPadnos> there's a 1340 there, but I didn't see a 1240
[13:39:31] <tonyp> need a few questions answered
[13:39:40] <tonyp> following errors
[13:39:57] <SWPadnos> Go ahead
[13:40:13] <rayh> On your setup, they are caused by the computer not being able to keep up.\
[13:40:29] <rayh> With the pulse rate out.
[13:40:58] <tonyp> paul_c sent me an ini file that he tested on a slower computer. It works only in one direction. I get about half speed in the other direction
[13:41:18] <tonyp> this is for all three axis
[13:41:55] <rayh> Well I guess we need to bitch at paul_c
[13:42:20] <paul_c> * paul_c books a plane out of the country.
[13:42:27] <tonyp> You go ahead, Hes been helpful to me
[13:42:46] <SWPadnos> what are MAX_OUTPUT ans MIN_OUTPUT? (not sure if these are used with freqmod, but figured I'd ask anyway)
[13:42:51] <SWPadnos> s/ans/and/
[13:43:18] <paul_c> They are used by freqmod
[13:43:41] <paul_c> They are used to clamp the max velocity
[13:43:43] <tonyp> -30 30
[13:45:07] <SWPadnos> OK
[13:45:25] <A-L-P-H-A> les, you still there?
[13:45:36] <A-L-P-H-A> From http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7500678740 to http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Highspeed_Spindle_Design_drafts/spindle.rar [apache didn't recognize the mime type last time]
[13:45:45] <paul_c> tonyp: Have you altered anything in that ini file ?
[13:45:47] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, the spindle design.
[13:46:04] <andyg> hi, i was here yesterday morning asking about cnc lists, i visited CCDM, thanks (they seem to be down atm)
[13:46:37] <tonyp> The only thing I touched was the max acceleration. I slowed it down some
[13:46:49] <A-L-P-H-A> CCDM? what about CCED or CCE groups on yahoo? also www.cnczone.com
[13:47:27] <andyg> I'm sorry, CCED
[13:47:47] <tonyp> woops default acceleration.
[13:47:51] <A-L-P-H-A> Andy Wander?
[13:48:08] <andyg> that's not me
[13:48:42] <A-L-P-H-A> I see Wille Padnos' posts.
[13:49:22] <andyg> there does not seem to be the same community support for cnc, as compared to say the linuxes
[13:49:36] <A-L-P-H-A> andyg, smaller niche.
[13:49:43] <A-L-P-H-A> same support, just smaller niche.
[13:49:45] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[13:49:48] <paul_c> tonyp: Hrmm.. Accel shouldn't affect it..
[13:49:53] <A-L-P-H-A> plenty of support in here.. the developers are in here.
[13:50:08] <A-L-P-H-A> like the fine gentleman, paul_c.
[13:50:20] <andyg> umfortunatly I am not using emc...yet :)
[13:50:40] <A-L-P-H-A> general CNC discussion is welcome in here... I ask all the time. :)
[13:51:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I need a coin... hair cut, or machine the spindle?
[13:51:52] <andyg> thanks A-L-P-H-A
[13:51:58] <tonyp> I get good speed in one of the directions on all three axis but only half of it in the other direction
[13:53:10] <A-L-P-H-A> tonyp? that's weird. full speed in one direction of each axis? and half speed in the reverse direction?
[13:53:35] <A-L-P-H-A> that is new to me. are you sure your windings wired correctly? [that's the only think I can think of]
[13:55:37] <tonyp> These are new stepper motors
[13:56:36] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[13:56:55] <SWPadnos> swap the phases on one motor, and see if the slow direction changes
[13:57:16] <SWPadnos> (once the real experts are done with you :) )
[13:57:42] <tonyp> I'll try that as a last option
[13:57:59] <tonyp> it may tell me alot
[14:00:57] <rayh> tonyp: You running live or 4.xx
[14:01:31] <tonyp> live
[14:01:39] <tonyp> rc46
[14:02:45] <rayh> What values do you have in the ini for MIN_OUTPUT = -50
[14:02:45] <rayh> MAX_OUTPUT = 50
[14:03:04] <rayh> That didn't work so well.
[14:03:21] <tonyp> right now the max and min are -30 and 30
[14:04:13] <rayh> min -30 max 30
[14:04:32] <tonyp> yes
[14:05:38] <rayh> Input and output scale are the same value on each axis
[14:05:53] <tonyp> yes
[14:07:14] <rayh> Is display distance traveled the same both directions?
[14:07:29] <rayh> and does it match actual distance.
[14:08:33] <tonyp> yes I think so. I didn't look at the display when setting the input output scale but 1" =1" exactly
[14:08:42] <tonyp> in both directions
[14:09:39] <tonyp> as a matter of fact on the z axis the display is right cause I remember looking at it
[14:10:38] <tonyp> rayh, by the way deadband is 1 \ input scale isn't it
[14:11:31] <rayh> Yes or smaller to .55/scale.
[14:11:58] <tonyp> ok just making sure
[14:13:55] <rayh> Not a clue what's going on.
[14:14:14] <tonyp> your'e not a lot of help
[14:14:51] <rayh> That seems to be my best act of late!
[14:15:00] <rayh> All three axes behave the same.
[14:15:39] <tonyp> yeah, its kind of wierd. I'll try a few thing out and get back to you.
[14:16:09] <tonyp> I did cut my first program yesterday and it worked real good except only at 30 ipm
[14:16:40] <tonyp> hoping to get 80 ipm feeds when Im finished getting it right
[14:16:55] <rayh> Above 30 you got following errors?
[14:17:18] <tonyp> Didn't try that yet, had to go to work
[14:17:31] <tonyp> just ran some type to see how it cut
[14:17:41] <tonyp> looked real good though
[14:20:00] <tonyp> I'm heading to the garage. get back later. signing off.
[14:22:11] <rayh> Fantastic. Glad that you got that far.
[14:29:15] <A-L-P-H-A> I can't get in the mood to machine. strange.
[14:33:45] <SWPadnos> then go for the haircut
[15:13:59] <A-L-P-H-A> I took a shower, and ordered a pizza instead. :D
[15:21:14] <SWPadnos> good thing - the smell was getting to me :)
[15:45:00] <andyg> * andyg is back from cnczone
[15:46:24] <andyg> ok, I think I'm getting a better handle on this: "DIY" seems to have more active community then "commercial"
[15:47:19] <SWPadnos> I imagine commercial interests would be more close-mouthed about what they're doing
[15:47:30] <SWPadnos> whereas DIY is more of a community of enthusiasts
[15:49:02] <andyg> that "closed mouth" attitude is strange to me, of course, that is because I think I'm the best g-code programmer I ever met
[15:49:47] <SWPadnos> heh - if you're a company that wants to sell a product, it's probably best to keep your problems to yourself, and to not give the competition the solutions you figure out
[15:50:11] <andyg> ah, yes, I was thinking more of the end users
[15:51:04] <andyg> I just believe obscurity in the tech sector is counter productive
[15:52:00] <A-L-P-H-A> andyg, it is... but what's good for the end user, may not be good for business.
[15:52:00] <andyg> I should be able to beat the competition, wit hinovation, if they want to follow a few years behind fine :)
[15:52:06] <les> I am commercial but try to help hobbyists
[15:52:29] <A-L-P-H-A> les, so you're a pro, eh? how much for a quickie?
[15:52:42] <les> Some hobbyists are more knowledgable than the commercial guys anyway!
[15:52:57] <les> ahem depends on what kind of quickie
[15:52:59] <les> heh
[15:53:11] <andyg> I'm commercial, but I learned most of my trade by teaching it to someone else
[15:53:25] <andyg> les: that is so true
[15:53:30] <les> well said
[15:53:31] <andyg> it's about passion
[15:53:37] <A-L-P-H-A> les, are you going to code fest?
[15:53:59] <les> No I am not a developer...
[15:54:05] <les> I just do math
[15:54:10] <A-L-P-H-A> I see.
[15:54:23] <les> however some will come down here after codefest
[15:54:27] <A-L-P-H-A> I do both... B.Sc mathematical Sciences.
[15:54:39] <A-L-P-H-A> les, where are you again?
[15:54:44] <SWPadnos> I wish the segmot papers were smaller - I'd love to print them out and read on the plane
[15:54:59] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, PDA? laptop?
[15:55:00] <les> ne georgia right at the nc border
[15:55:12] <A-L-P-H-A> les, oh. I'm sorry. ;)
[15:55:13] <SWPadnos> laptop, but only when it's allowed ...
[15:55:19] <andyg> michigan here
[15:55:39] <les> well we hope to beat up segmentqueue and test it on the fast machine
[15:56:01] <SWPadnos> heh - I can also test here with my scope
[15:56:06] <les> It will be some coding
[15:56:17] <SWPadnos> (for *really* high speeds)
[15:56:50] <les> nothing like changing a couple lines, recompiling, and moving 500 kg of iron fast
[15:57:10] <SWPadnos> better in the early stages to *not* move 500kg really fast ;)
[15:57:23] <SWPadnos> (electrons have so much less momentum)
[15:57:46] <les> I think we can get somewhere...I understand the paper...Paul understands the code
[15:57:59] <SWPadnos> that should be a good pairing
[15:58:05] <SWPadnos> we'll also see what happens at fest
[15:58:08] <les> I do program in c some...but not with linux and gnu much
[15:58:32] <SWPadnos> luckily there isn't a lot of OS-specific stuff in the calculation functions
[15:58:38] <les> right
[15:58:43] <SWPadnos> (at lest, there shouldn't be)
[15:58:55] <les> there isn't
[15:58:59] <A-L-P-H-A> oh man... I feel like I need an afternoon nap
[15:59:07] <A-L-P-H-A> zero caffine in my system today
[15:59:35] <les> I was just out "relaxing" by making a wood drill caddy that mounts on the wall
[15:59:37] <A-L-P-H-A> Caffeine
[15:59:44] <SWPadnos> do you know if the queue code uses matrix math, or if the calcs are hard-coded for the specific matrices used?
[15:59:45] <les> sick of those folding cases
[15:59:55] <les> a lot of holes to drill!
[16:00:12] <SWPadnos> but at least you have all the drills to do it ;)
[16:00:20] <andyg> I gotta go to work, thank, back later
[16:00:23] <A-L-P-H-A> les... I kinda like the folding cases... it's well organized.
[16:00:26] <les> SWP: it is hard coded cramer's rule stuff
[16:00:38] <SWPadnos> good for speed that way
[16:00:43] <les> yes
[16:00:53] <les> no numerical methods are used
[16:00:58] <A-L-P-H-A> les, did you ever look at the drawing I had?
[16:01:07] <les> prob
[16:01:10] <A-L-P-H-A> From http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7500678740 to http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Highspeed_Spindle_Design_drafts/spindle.rar
[16:01:11] <les> which one?
[16:01:20] <les> oh yes I did
[16:01:28] <A-L-P-H-A> any problems you forsee?
[16:01:35] <les> yes
[16:01:39] <A-L-P-H-A> :(
[16:01:42] <A-L-P-H-A> such as?
[16:01:59] <les> .5 id bearing will not fit properly on a .5 od shaft
[16:02:18] <A-L-P-H-A> les, I aready mod the spindle to allow the bearings to fit.
[16:02:33] <les> bearing tables show about .5003
[16:02:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I out the spindle on the lathe, and use some 360 sand paper... and just took off a smidge.
[16:02:45] <les> hmm
[16:02:46] <A-L-P-H-A> out=put
[16:02:53] <A-L-P-H-A> the spindle was > 0.500"
[16:02:57] <les> made it smaller?
[16:03:23] <les> it should be smaller everywhere except right where the bearing seats
[16:03:27] <A-L-P-H-A> now it's 0.500" when it's COLD. when the heat the spindle with my hand, it's gets too warm to put the bearings on.
[16:03:44] <les> hmm
[16:03:47] <les> ok
[16:04:02] <A-L-P-H-A> any other issues?
[16:04:25] <les> I think I would bring it down to 12 mm and use a standard metric.
[16:04:37] <les> Yeah one question....
[16:04:38] <A-L-P-H-A> can't there's a through hole.
[16:04:49] <A-L-P-H-A> well, I could.
[16:04:58] <les> what holds the bearing axially?
[16:05:03] <A-L-P-H-A> but it's more work. I already bought the bearings for $1.32CDN + taxes each.
[16:05:31] <A-L-P-H-A> axially? cold rolled steel bar, that I'm about to bore out?
[16:05:42] <les> a collar?
[16:05:45] <A-L-P-H-A> 1.75" dia cold rolled steel?
[16:05:46] <A-L-P-H-A> oh.
[16:05:48] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah...
[16:05:59] <les> set screw?
[16:06:17] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm about to thread the extension, so that each end houses a nut. And in between use a spacer that I'll have to make as well.
[16:06:29] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[16:06:39] <A-L-P-H-A> no, no set screw. A nut, probably out of steel as well, or 6061
[16:06:54] <les> I would shrink fit those puppies on
[16:07:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll red lock tight the two to together.
[16:07:15] <les> oh the final stop must be the nose of the extension
[16:07:45] <les> but normally you have two bearings at the nose db configured
[16:07:55] <A-L-P-H-A> db?
[16:07:56] <les> and one floating at the pully end
[16:07:59] <A-L-P-H-A> yes.
[16:08:16] <les> db is back to back angular mounting
[16:08:39] <A-L-P-H-A> well, they're just precision radial bearings... that I'll double up.
[16:09:01] <les> can also do it with deep groove bearings....run as angulars
[16:09:27] <les> deep groove radials will have a good bit of axial clearance by themselves
[16:09:31] <A-L-P-H-A> these are R8 2RS bearings. sec.
[16:09:45] <les> ok
[16:09:51] <les> what rpm?
[16:11:22] <A-L-P-H-A> 21,000 rpm rated. I'll be going at 12Krpm
[16:11:39] <A-L-P-H-A> so I should be good.
[16:11:59] <les> yeah
[16:12:33] <les> I might make a spindle like that with a 1" diam er-25 extension
[16:12:59] <A-L-P-H-A> I was actually thinking of buying another collet extension er-16...
[16:13:14] <les> I would use 7205 angulars at the nose and 6205 deep groove at the pulley
[16:13:21] <les> 25 mm bore
[16:13:36] <les> so just under 0.4 mm to take off
[16:13:45] <A-L-P-H-A> bearings aren't the issue, bearings are cheap... i a slew of distributors for bearings near me.
[16:13:56] <les> hmm
[16:14:08] <les> class 7 angulars aren't cheap
[16:14:14] <A-L-P-H-A> no. they aren't.
[16:14:20] <les> checking in msc...
[16:14:45] <A-L-P-H-A> abec 7, around 20mm... it's like ~$15CDN each.
[16:14:54] <A-L-P-H-A> nothing more than $20CDN each.
[16:15:08] <A-L-P-H-A> I bought a couple of low profile, high precision bearings for my rotary table... two cost me $35CDN.
[16:15:24] <les> I am getting $459/pair for abec7
[16:15:35] <A-L-P-H-A> ABEC7?
[16:15:37] <A-L-P-H-A> wtf?
[16:15:41] <les> yeah
[16:15:45] <A-L-P-H-A> what size?
[16:15:47] <les> pretty bad price
[16:16:01] <A-L-P-H-A> 3/8" bore... I could get 8 for like maybe $100CDN MAX.
[16:16:10] <A-L-P-H-A> {rollar blade bearings}
[16:16:14] <A-L-P-H-A> ABEC 7.
[16:16:47] <A-L-P-H-A> let me make a call... what grade, and size?
[16:16:51] <A-L-P-H-A> les...?
[16:17:03] <A-L-P-H-A> 20mm? ABEC 7?
[16:17:07] <A-L-P-H-A> OD?
[16:17:13] <les> oh here are some "import abec 7 7205 for $202.20/pair
[16:17:15] <A-L-P-H-A> RPM rating?
[16:17:26] <les> 52 mm od
[16:17:35] <A-L-P-H-A> and height requirements?
[16:17:58] <les> I would have to hunt it up ...rpm is in the high teens
[16:18:02] <A-L-P-H-A> 20ID 52OD ABEC7? rpm rating?
[16:18:10] <A-L-P-H-A> k... let me call and ask. cause I'm curious now.
[16:18:26] <les> 25 id
[16:18:34] <A-L-P-H-A> k
[16:18:38] <les> I have the books...I can find it in a sec
[16:21:24] <A-L-P-H-A> 12K rpm, radial bearing... $9CDN [asking bout high speed thrust bearings]
[16:22:01] <les> 41800 rpm grease for ceramic ball...
[16:22:20] <les> and...
[16:23:19] <A-L-P-H-A> 7205, $94CDN/EACH.
[16:23:45] <A-L-P-H-A> sucka. :D I can get them cheaper... [not that I need them]
[16:24:06] <les> only 10,000 rpm grease with steel ball abec-1
[16:24:41] <les> $94 for abec-7 universal flush ground light preload?
[16:25:40] <A-L-P-H-A> dunno... I didn't get into that much detail... but I told him that this would be for a high speed spindle.
[16:25:47] <A-L-P-H-A> and proceeded to give me that info.
[16:26:33] <les> well that is somewhat similar to the $180/pair I see here
[16:26:44] <les> what is the exchange rate right now?
[16:27:21] <A-L-P-H-A> 1.25CDN = 1USD
[16:27:34] <A-L-P-H-A> .8USD = 1CDN
[16:27:35] <les> ok
[16:27:43] <les> better than it used to be I guess
[16:27:52] <les> for you
[16:27:57] <A-L-P-H-A> for Canadians yes, not yanks.
[16:28:14] <A-L-P-H-A> I remember, when I was selling to the states... 1.64CD = 1USD. that was great.
[16:28:24] <les> yeah
[16:28:26] <A-L-P-H-A> sell $2CDN worth of materials for like $30USD. :)
[16:28:39] <A-L-P-H-A> + 15 minutes of machining time.
[16:29:00] <A-L-P-H-A> well... if I did it in bulk it'd be like 8-10 minutes a piece.
[16:29:11] <les> good deal
[16:30:19] <A-L-P-H-A> market got flooded.
[16:30:23] <A-L-P-H-A> so I bowed out.
[16:30:30] <A-L-P-H-A> they now sel them for like $10 a pop.
[16:31:22] <les> Well I will still need a low speed drilling spindle even though i am getting the perske
[16:32:35] <les> it is lightly built....7005 or 7105 I think
[16:32:46] <A-L-P-H-A> les, if you bought them yourself, you wouldn't need to pay taxes, as you're a yank.
[16:32:50] <A-L-P-H-A> just shipping.
[16:33:01] <les> 24,000 rpm 7.5 kW
[16:33:03] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd need to pay 15% taxes.
[16:33:20] <les> what is the outfit?
[16:33:24] <A-L-P-H-A> BDI Canada.
[16:33:35] <les> googling
[16:33:41] <A-L-P-H-A> 27 Casebridge Court, Unit 4
[16:33:41] <A-L-P-H-A> Scarborough, Ontario
[16:33:41] <A-L-P-H-A> Canada M1B 4Y4
[16:33:45] <A-L-P-H-A> PHONE: (416) 281-5188
[16:33:45] <A-L-P-H-A> FAX: (416) 281-3762
[16:34:11] <A-L-P-H-A> disclaimer: I am not a employee or vendor of or for BDI Canada.
[16:34:25] <A-L-P-H-A> www.bdi-canada.com
[16:34:30] <les> got the web site
[16:34:33] <les> looking
[16:34:47] <A-L-P-H-A> oh there's a BDI USA
[16:34:53] <A-L-P-H-A> maybe they'd be better for you
[16:36:00] <les> I got great prices in chicago when I worked there
[16:36:13] <les> just down the street
[16:36:21] <les> everything wwas
[16:36:26] <A-L-P-H-A> so, call them, I'm sure they'd deliver. UPS/FEDEX/USPS
[16:36:32] <A-L-P-H-A> the rub and tug
[16:36:38] <A-L-P-H-A> underground casino
[16:36:44] <A-L-P-H-A> speak easies
[16:36:58] <les> HIWIN warehouse was a couple miles away
[16:37:26] <A-L-P-H-A> if I lived in a place that well connect, I'd be hard pressed to leave there.
[16:37:31] <A-L-P-H-A> connected
[16:37:44] <A-L-P-H-A> Toronto is nice... cheap places all over the place, but it's a big city.
[16:37:48] <les> They have a huge room full of linear rail cutoffs etc
[16:37:53] <les> yeah
[16:37:59] <les> well out in the woods here
[16:38:11] <les> I depend on mail order for everything
[16:38:15] <A-L-P-H-A> that's cuase you're unibomber ][
[16:38:17] <les> msc mostly
[16:38:25] <A-L-P-H-A> I like msc. they price compete. :D
[16:38:41] <A-L-P-H-A> mcmaster won't... and they're from New Jersey... bah.
[16:38:42] <les> unabomber...everyone says that!
[16:38:49] <les> haha
[16:39:04] <les> I do math...I live in the woods...
[16:39:29] <A-L-P-H-A> I just hate the bronx and NJ accents. they think they're all that, yet they sound so annoying.
[16:39:44] <les> less than mainstream politics...
[16:39:59] <les> I have no accent...but others here sure do
[16:40:08] <les> I often cannot understand them
[16:40:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I have a Canadian, Toronto accent.
[16:40:21] <les> eh?
[16:40:34] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't actually say "eh" but I type it. :)
[16:40:57] <A-L-P-H-A> "eh" sounds a lot smarter than "huh"
[16:41:13] <les> ha
[16:41:34] <les> My part time engineer here is an aussie
[16:41:43] <les> he has an accent
[16:42:06] <les> and all those phrases they use
[16:42:15] <les> like "spit the dummy"
[16:42:18] <A-L-P-H-A> guys with accents annoy me. girls with accents, well depends from where... can push a girl from a 7 to an 8.
[16:42:33] <les> sure
[16:42:44] <A-L-P-H-A> les, tell him to go sit on his fanny and just stop being naughty. :)
[16:43:25] <les> I have a problem with girls..especially irish ones.
[16:43:35] <les> The problem is that I like 'em.
[16:43:41] <A-L-P-H-A> Argh... loud british news guy on CNN, annoys the hell out of me... he's just so pretenscious, that I want to smack him up side the head to shut him up. But then I just end up chaning to the other news networks.
[16:44:00] <A-L-P-H-A> irish guys... <shrug> they don't do it for me.
[16:44:05] <les> oh yeah what is his name...forget
[16:44:16] <A-L-P-H-A> Classy British gals... they do it.
[16:44:28] <A-L-P-H-A> les, you know who I'm talking about though right?
[16:44:38] <les> yeah
[16:44:39] <A-L-P-H-A> the CNN british correspondant...
[16:44:57] <les> yeah I know of him but forgot his name
[16:45:31] <A-L-P-H-A> Who cares for his name.
[16:45:44] <les> hrm no girls here..with teeth anyway
[16:46:05] <A-L-P-H-A> les... you probably need to move to a city where there's more diverse of a gene pool.
[16:46:40] <les> no diverse gene pool here FOR SURE
[16:46:56] <les> aw nah I will stay here
[16:47:02] <les> inherited farm
[16:47:08] <les> owe no money
[16:47:15] <les> plenty of land
[16:48:16] <les> I would like a liitle condo or something in fl for the winter
[16:48:22] <les> winter is bad here
[16:48:34] <les> I grew up in fl
[16:48:39] <les> and my kids are there
[16:49:43] <les> I wanted to go down and rent a houseboat this winter but was too busy with work
[16:49:47] <les> also...
[16:50:08] <les> the marina no longer exists...it was totally trashed last summer
[16:51:00] <les> oh well
[16:51:01] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm. and your boat wouldn't be?
[16:51:12] <A-L-P-H-A> this is sad.
[16:51:15] <les> what boats?
[16:51:16] <les> heh
[16:51:24] <A-L-P-H-A> I asked out a girl, that I can't remember her name... I think it's Michelle.
[16:51:36] <A-L-P-H-A> she told me her name months and months ago.
[16:51:36] <les> no boats no docks no trees
[16:51:50] <A-L-P-H-A> sounds like a shit hole... where there's no trees.
[16:51:58] <A-L-P-H-A> i need trees... something other than flat bushes.
[16:52:04] <les> asked here out and forgot her name...haha that's funny
[16:52:16] <A-L-P-H-A> no. it was forget her name. but ask her out anyways.
[16:52:20] <les> plenty of trees here
[16:52:30] <les> 10,000 or so on the property?
[16:52:40] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[16:52:47] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got not so many.
[16:53:13] <les> My cousin and I have a woodmiser sawmill
[16:53:14] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got 6 in the backyard, and 4 in the front.
[16:53:18] <les> pretty handy
[16:53:30] <A-L-P-H-A> for your own lumber?
[16:53:42] <les> it is 25 hp with full hydraulics
[16:53:44] <les> yeah
[16:54:17] <les> it cuts a 16 foot plank in about 10 seconds or so
[16:54:32] <les> not as fast as a big mill
[16:54:36] <A-L-P-H-A> heh, and you need it to go that fast because?
[16:54:37] <A-L-P-H-A> heh
[16:54:41] <les> but fast enough
[16:55:20] <les> well 1000 bd ft is a fairly easy day with it
[16:55:34] <les> wet wood is heavy though
[16:55:47] <A-L-P-H-A> I buy mine from home depot. :)
[16:56:07] <les> I like free.
[16:56:18] <les> well kinda...the mill does have upkeep
[16:56:30] <les> not much
[16:56:46] <les> blades and guides
[16:56:51] <A-L-P-H-A> les, so you think I should shrink fit the collars into the extension, isntead of cutting a thread on the extension?
[16:56:58] <les> hit a nail....there goes $40
[16:56:59] <A-L-P-H-A> the one by the collet head?
[16:57:26] <A-L-P-H-A> if you're cutting your own lumber, how would they have nails?
[16:57:33] <les> I would shrink fit and pin it i think
[16:57:48] <les> most trees have rocks and nails in the wood
[16:57:53] <les> and bullets
[16:58:24] <A-L-P-H-A> les, if I pin it... I won't be able to get longer end mills in.
[16:58:24] <les> we have a metal detector though
[16:58:30] <A-L-P-H-A> aren't bullets like ether lead or copper... those would be soft enough to cut through.
[16:58:36] <les> yeah
[16:58:45] <A-L-P-H-A> not a nail I wouldn't think... but hey.
[16:58:51] <A-L-P-H-A> what do I know, I'm a city boy
[16:58:54] <les> understand about the pinning
[16:59:24] <A-L-P-H-A> les, pardon?
[16:59:36] <les> that the extension is hollow
[16:59:46] <A-L-P-H-A> yes, the extension is hollow.
[16:59:48] <les> so forget pinning
[17:00:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm about to just REMAKe the extension.
[17:00:20] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got a 3/4" dia steel rod... which I could just remake the whole thing.
[17:00:28] <les> I still bet that the shank is hardened
[17:01:01] <les> I can grind threads..but it is slow
[17:01:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll call the manufacturer up.
[17:01:43] <les> I am going to guess...RC 50-55
[17:02:09] <les> we'll see
[17:02:16] <les> back to the shop for a bit
[17:02:49] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll be doing the same after I find out.
[17:03:42] <les> post it when you do
[17:03:46] <les> later
[17:05:26] <A-L-P-H-A> 41-40
[17:12:15] <A-L-P-H-A> the guy's saying it's from like RC 35-40
[17:12:32] <A-L-P-H-A> and my runout on this will be like huge... a couple of thou supposedly.
[17:16:38] <A-L-P-H-A> this sucks.
[17:50:04] <A-L-P-H-A> LES! I found out the stuff... sweet. ER16... found a distributor that makes their own.
[17:50:43] <les> back
[17:51:04] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.usshoptools.com/current_year/products_sitemap/Files%20For%20Al%20APR%2020/PDFS_CURRENT_YEAR_120_180/PGS_159.pdf
[17:51:10] <A-L-P-H-A> solid, no through hole.
[17:51:20] <les> 35-40 4140 is not too bad
[17:51:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm looking at it, and hoping to have a collar on one end.
[17:51:37] <A-L-P-H-A> no, it's completely machinable.
[17:51:39] <les> Idon't understand the runout bit
[17:52:13] <A-L-P-H-A> the manufacturer told me that I'll have like a runnout on the endmill from the crappiness of the collet design will be huge.
[17:52:21] <les> hmm
[17:52:30] <A-L-P-H-A> it's ment for drilling, milling in tight spots, not precision milling which I'll need.
[17:52:38] <les> ok
[17:52:46] <les> well an er then
[17:52:50] <A-L-P-H-A> they guy's saying, yeah, "I don't recommend it"
[17:52:59] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.usshoptools.com/current_year/products_sitemap/Files%20For%20Al%20APR%2020/PDFS_CURRENT_YEAR_120_180/PGS_159.pdf <-- look.
[17:53:03] <A-L-P-H-A> CHEAP!
[17:54:54] <les> yeah
[17:55:03] <les> solid shaft?
[17:55:09] <A-L-P-H-A> solid shaft yeah.
[17:55:56] <A-L-P-H-A> well, that's what the guy said on the phone.
[17:56:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm just seeing if they have a collar or not before I buy it.
[17:58:23] <les> just remember....shafts may be +0/ - something
[17:58:33] <les> and you need +.0002
[17:58:41] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah... this is why I haven't bought it yet.
[17:59:01] <A-L-P-H-A> if they're solid... think I could flick it down on my lathe?
[17:59:22] <les> depends have a tool post grinder?
[17:59:31] <A-L-P-H-A> yes.
[17:59:42] <les> yeah np then
[17:59:44] <A-L-P-H-A> never have used it yet.
[17:59:56] <les> what kind? dumore?
[18:00:02] <A-L-P-H-A> schaublin.
[18:00:08] <les> ok
[18:00:08] <A-L-P-H-A> 5K rpm.
[18:00:17] <A-L-P-H-A> schaublin for a schaublin lathe.
[18:00:37] <les> have wheel dresser and stuff?
[18:00:47] <A-L-P-H-A> no, but that stuff I can buy.
[18:00:50] <A-L-P-H-A> those are cheap.
[18:00:51] <les> yeah
[18:01:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't know the proper method to grind stuff.
[18:01:14] <les> I would take a little as possible
[18:01:25] <les> like 1" down to 25 mm
[18:01:38] <les> what other good combinations are there...
[18:01:57] <A-L-P-H-A> I was thinking 3/4 down to 19mm
[18:02:01] <A-L-P-H-A> 19.05mm to 19.00mm
[18:02:27] <A-L-P-H-A> btw... I can't measure anything smaller than 0.001" really... my calipres are cheap shit.
[18:03:09] <les> 19 is not a standard bore though
[18:03:19] <les> 15, 17, 20, 25
[18:03:31] <les> 5/8 down to 15 looks good
[18:04:02] <les> 3/4 down to 17 ok
[18:04:47] <les> hey buy some of those cheap $10 carbide tipped micrometers
[18:05:01] <les> They are usually pretty accurate
[18:05:14] <les> I use them for general shop use
[18:05:27] <les> I have standards and can check them
[18:05:47] <les> worst error is .0002 in any I have seen
[18:05:55] <A-L-P-H-A> $10? where?
[18:05:56] <les> and you can dial that out
[18:06:10] <les> let me get you a link
[18:06:35] <A-L-P-H-A> gotta remember 0.0002" is easily changed with temperature. :(
[18:09:01] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wanders back from unconciousness...
[18:09:01] <les> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=203&PARTPG=INLMK3
[18:09:05] <an0n> hello everyone
[18:09:08] <an0n> an0n is now known as anonimasu
[18:09:10] <les> these have insulated handles
[18:09:12] <A-L-P-H-A> hi
[18:09:17] <Phydbleep> les: What's the leadscrew pitch for the cnc unit you'er making?
[18:09:17] <les> but yeah watch the temp
[18:09:56] <les> it would be fast....prob 2 turns/rev or so
[18:10:04] <les> duh
[18:10:10] <les> turns per inch
[18:10:18] <Phydbleep> 2 TPI?
[18:10:21] <les> turns per rev is always one haha
[18:10:48] <les> yeah 2 or 3...around there
[18:11:14] <Phydbleep> so 60-90 IPM for a max move speed.
[18:11:32] <les> could go 5 in a smaller machine
[18:11:55] <les> no..I need 1000 ipm
[18:12:10] <les> kinda fast!
[18:12:11] <Jymmm> les jet pack cnc huh?
[18:12:29] <Phydbleep> This is the $10/channel encoders.
[18:12:44] <les> 1000 is not at all uncommon these days
[18:12:52] <anonimasu> ^_^
[18:12:58] <les> it depends though
[18:13:26] <les> 1000 is of little use on a smaller machine that does have a lot of spindle power
[18:14:21] <les> typically with wood you get about 100-150 ipm per hp
[18:14:21] <Phydbleep> les: These are full control cutting moves, every step counted and reported.
[18:14:27] <les> something like that
[18:14:44] <les> for foam 300+
[18:14:55] <les> yes
[18:15:23] <les> large machines actually commonly cut mdf at 800-1200 ipm
[18:15:29] <les> but
[18:15:49] <les> you need 20 hp or so for a thru cut in 3/4 mdf
[18:16:00] <Phydbleep> So a hobbyist should be happy with 60ipm. :)
[18:16:09] <les> sure
[18:16:45] <les> 60 ipm would usually not tax say a 1 hp router cutting hardwood
[18:16:49] <Jymmm> les MDF is that dense?
[18:16:58] <Phydbleep> The machine you're building is a 20cm (inch?) cube?
[18:17:05] <les> it's heavy yeah
[18:17:24] <les> at the moment considering...not building
[18:17:26] <Jymmm> les but 20HP ?
[18:17:47] <les> 20 inch working area for the smallest
[18:18:02] <Phydbleep> Yeah, MDF has all the worst qualities of plastic, wood and cat-piss....
[18:18:24] <les> spindle would be 3 hp or so I guess
[18:18:40] <les> so 300 ipm cuts in wood
[18:18:54] <les> and 1000 in foam would be possible
[18:19:11] <les> need .2-.5g accel
[18:19:22] <les> and...
[18:19:29] <Phydbleep> you'd have to velocity ramp with that or it'll eat the machine.
[18:19:30] <les> corner slowdown.
[18:19:43] <les> emc does not have that and it's a concern
[18:20:00] <Jymmm> les jet pack and paarachut CNC'ing again?
[18:20:05] <les> heh
[18:20:08] <Phydbleep> emc doesn't need it the way I'm thinking of.
[18:20:42] <les> it does not need it on a bridgeport or something
[18:21:02] <les> high speed routing a bit different
[18:22:37] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... I know... I have a complex pattern I need routed in 1" aluminum plate.. Not a straight line to be found anywhere in the pattern..
[18:24:11] <anonimasu> hm, that wouldnt be a problem really
[18:24:12] <anonimasu> :)
[18:24:46] <Phydbleep> It need to be routed at about 2ipm to get a good finish.
[18:25:06] <anonimasu> 2ip,?!
[18:25:08] <anonimasu> heh
[18:25:32] <anonimasu> that's hobby speed..
[18:25:39] <Phydbleep> Air intake manifold for a gas-turbine. :)
[18:26:03] <anonimasu> if you are producing 40 per day of thoose..
[18:26:13] <Phydbleep> I thought 18ipm was hobby speed. ???
[18:26:23] <anonimasu> no idea really
[18:26:25] <les> yeah sure don't need to worry about accel and corners at that speed
[18:27:43] <anonimasu> but 2ipm is slow..
[18:28:03] <les> calculate the require accel for a 2" circle at 10 ipm
[18:29:08] <Phydbleep> les: Well, What i've got is this.. You can have it for <$50/channel, 4096 ppr, 120V 10A, @ a rotational rate of 2000 degrees/second (18ipm with a 20tpi leadscrew) or $100/channel for 10240 ppr, 10,000 deg/sec rotation.
[18:29:53] <les> sounds neat except for encoder rate
[18:30:10] <les> lets see I need 16 ips
[18:30:19] <les> 32 rps
[18:30:32] <les> times 1000 or so
[18:30:54] <les> 32k pps before quad interpolation
[18:31:15] <les> somewhere in that range
[18:31:46] <les> many readers can do 250k pps
[18:33:50] <les> .001" repeatability needs about .0001" encoder pulse spacing
[18:33:57] <les> the old ten to one rule
[18:34:01] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep thinks the 2 tpi leadscrews may be a bit steep.
[18:34:19] <les> they can be
[18:34:39] <les> shorter ballscrews can turn faster and be finer pitch
[18:34:47] <les> finer pitch is cheaper
[18:34:56] <les> 5tpi is about the cheapest
[18:35:55] <les> let me check hiwin a sec
[18:36:05] <A-L-P-H-A> les, those aren't $10.
[18:36:35] <Phydbleep> Me personally I'd run at least 10/1 .. Should give 0.0002 deg repeatability per rev.
[18:37:55] <Phydbleep> That's 5x samples for 0.001
[18:38:49] <Phydbleep> les, You're not trying to do something silly and precision machine mdf are you?
[18:38:59] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[18:39:22] <les> hmm HIWIN 1cm/turn looks fine
[18:39:47] <les> and yeah....cutting wood to .001 haha
[18:40:06] <les> some wood and plastic work actually need that
[18:40:12] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep can see it now.. 1 part in the freezer, 1 part in the oven.. Press fit with MDF... OY! :)
[18:40:16] <les> repeatability, not accuracy
[18:40:53] <Phydbleep> Repeatability is 0.0002 deg/rev.
[18:41:34] <les> mill some .001" deep groove in a piece of wood or plastic...you will see that it is quite rough!
[18:42:57] <les> so if you are facing something and have under .001 repeatability it can take a HUGE amount of sanding to get the gouges out
[18:43:14] <les> try iy you'll see
[18:43:41] <les> it
[18:44:32] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep figures out the carriage movement for 0.0002 degrees of rotation on a 10tpi leadscrew..
[18:44:54] <Phydbleep> "Squat all".. :)
[18:45:02] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... :)
[18:46:48] <les> not much heh
[18:47:07] <Phydbleep> I think that will qualify for repeatability.
[18:47:38] <les> When I jog my big machine in .0001 increments it moves about every other time
[18:47:44] <SWP_Away> les - what's your closest more-or-less major airport?
[18:47:47] <les> stick slip
[18:47:55] <A-L-P-H-A> .1 = 360deg. .01=36deg 0.001=3.6deg 0.0002=.72deg.
[18:48:30] <les> SWP: Hartsfield atlanta...would like you to come down!
[18:48:31] <A-L-P-H-A> I could just get that 0.72degrees on my 5phase stepper.
[18:48:44] <SWP_Away> I would like to - just not sure if I can schedule it ATM
[18:48:50] <les> ok
[18:49:00] <SWP_Away> Haven't been to ATL since the '96 olympics
[18:49:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd visit, but les says the women there don't have teeth.
[18:49:11] <SWP_Away> some do
[18:49:16] <les> I am 130 miles nw of hartsfield
[18:49:21] <Phydbleep> This should be 0.00002" carriage movment per step @ 10tpi.
[18:50:08] <SWP_Away> I'd love to see your big router, and also brainstorm on the little guy
[18:50:08] <les> right...no teeth...well I take that back. Some do have teeth...but they come out at night.
[18:50:18] <les> Yes
[18:50:19] <SWP_Away> (though I'm not independently wealthy yet :) )
[18:50:23] <les> It's fun
[18:50:40] <les> dangerous too considering the money I may spend
[18:50:47] <SWP_Away> yeah
[18:50:51] <SWP_Away> I know the feeling
[18:50:55] <les> just looked at cnn and the market is crappy
[18:51:06] <les> how long is that going to go on?
[18:51:15] <Phydbleep> You can send it to me for safe-keeping if you're afraid you'll spend it all. :)
[18:51:24] <les> haha
[18:51:41] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep will only spend half of it. :)
[18:51:45] <SWP_Away> * SWP_Away is away again - see ya
[18:52:12] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A slaps SWP_Away around a bit with a large trout
[18:52:16] <A-L-P-H-A> huh?
[18:52:22] <A-L-P-H-A> how'd that get typed?
[18:52:22] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep abuses A-L-P-H-A with a rudely shaped turnip.
[18:52:30] <A-L-P-H-A> no, seriously... I was trying to type something serious.
[18:52:35] <A-L-P-H-A> I was trying to type:
[18:52:54] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep tries to type too..
[18:52:59] <SWP_Away> * SWP_Away too
[18:53:04] <SWP_Away> oops
[18:53:06] <A-L-P-H-A> so the standard sized metric bearing are of the following bores: 10 12 15 17 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75
[18:53:13] <SWP_Away> yeah - that's close :)
[18:53:24] <les> yup
[18:53:39] <A-L-P-H-A> if I wanted to slap you... I'd do it with your sister under that she left last night. :)
[18:53:50] <A-L-P-H-A> underware
[18:53:57] <les> heh
[18:53:58] <A-L-P-H-A> heh that LAST the effect completely. :(
[18:54:01] <A-L-P-H-A> LOST.
[18:54:05] <SWP_Away> which sister forgot her underwear? ;)
[18:54:07] <A-L-P-H-A> omg... I give up... I can't type.
[18:55:06] <Phydbleep> Muwahahaha... Another poor unsuspecting soul has fallen prey to keyboard psychosis..
[18:56:18] <les> gee has happy hour started on the east coast?
[18:56:30] <A-L-P-H-A> no.
[18:56:41] <A-L-P-H-A> not for another 49 minutes.
[18:56:44] <les> oh. pity.
[18:56:44] <A-L-P-H-A> 5pm+
[18:56:47] <Phydbleep> Happy hour ended on the east coast? That's news to me..
[18:57:29] <A-L-P-H-A> if I drove downtown... I could have drinks for like $2CDN/each... but alas... I'm not in a drinking mood.
[18:57:45] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm just a little peturbed that I bought something I didn't need to.
[18:58:03] <les> What if I herebye declare that the weekend has officially begun?
[18:58:14] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: Animal, vegetable or mineral?
[18:58:48] <A-L-P-H-A> mineral. metal. precision drill chuck, and now a DA300 extension collet.
[18:58:51] <Phydbleep> les: Everone buggers off for a pint?
[18:58:54] <les> sell it again on ebay
[18:59:05] <les> heh yeah
[18:59:09] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm gonna keep the drill chuck. I'll sell the DA300.
[19:00:18] <les> anyway I am still on semi holiday
[19:00:31] <les> I got bored so am working on some stuff.
[19:02:03] <Phydbleep> Yeah, Everyone thinks global domination is fun till it's time to do the paperwork.. Then nobody wants to take care of it..
[19:03:45] <les> oops...just remembered I got an email with questions from the UI senior project...
[19:03:55] <les> I had better call them.
[19:04:06] <les> It's billable time too.
[19:04:09] <les> bbl
[19:13:55] <an0n> an0n is now known as anonimasu
[19:17:01] <pfred1> the weekend? why that starts on Wednesday!
[19:22:04] <Phydbleep> pfred1: I avoid the rush and start on Sunday night. :)
[19:22:21] <pfred1> oh that's recovery day for me
[19:22:44] <pfred1> right now i have to map out the yard sales I plan on hitting tomorrow
[19:23:08] <pfred1> * pfred1 wants to make someone else's trash his treasure!
[19:23:33] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Yuo should come buy my backyard.
[19:23:43] <pfred1> Garage Sale = Garbage Sale
[19:23:53] <pfred1> oh look a garbage sale!
[19:24:01] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has junque not garbage.
[19:24:12] <pfred1> ah junque?
[19:24:32] <pfred1> yes i am a purveyor of fine junque
[19:25:12] <Phydbleep> 2kW DC motors, Golfcart parts, welder parts, compressor parts..
[19:25:15] <pfred1> I just got done fixing up some classic junque I'd had here aging for a while now
[19:25:50] <pfred1> I had this shelf unit under my poorch for I donno maybe 25 years? well it'd rotted out pretty nicely
[19:26:11] <pfred1> so I decided to haul it out and cut out the bad rot and weld in some new metal to it
[19:26:15] <Phydbleep> Rats.. That's right.. pfred1 is in New Jersey.. Too far to drive for a yard sale.
[19:26:26] <pfred1> the thing has just been sinking into the mud
[19:26:41] <pfred1> the back had lost 16 inches best as I could figure
[19:26:55] <pfred1> least i think the thing used to be 7 feet tall ...
[19:27:00] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Get a shovel and perform mud removal?
[19:27:12] <pfred1> oh yeah I got lots of shovels
[19:27:30] <pfred1> and the technical term for mud removal is "mucking"
[19:27:46] <pfred1> I have professionally mucked around some in my time
[19:28:08] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is tempted to sneak up on the 50 foot lumberjack statue with a "Got Wood?" sign..
[19:28:27] <Jymmm> s/oo/ee/
[19:28:49] <Phydbleep> No, That's for the 50 foot rasta. :)
[19:28:56] <Jymmm> lol
[19:29:10] <pfred1> hmm i thought toking that stuff made you small?
[19:29:14] <A-L-P-H-A> haha... what's I say about NJ a few hours ago.
[19:29:21] <pfred1> least that's what Steve Martin told me once
[19:29:50] <Phydbleep> Steve was talking about nose-candy.
[19:30:26] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is old enough to remember that act when it was new.
[19:31:09] <pfred1> well you can smoke nose candy too that's my preferred method at anyrate
[19:32:31] <Phydbleep> Bleargh!.. I agree with the easy legal sub for that.. Burn a $100 bill and shove a brake hone dipped in tabasco up your nose..
[19:33:44] <pfred1> hmm if it has a burn like that must be crank in your area
[19:34:10] <Phydbleep> Dunno, I'm just working from a description of the effects.
[19:34:34] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep avoids white powders like the plague..
[19:34:48] <anonimasu> heh
[19:34:51] <Jymmm> Mmmmmmmmm powered plague
[19:34:59] <Phydbleep> In fact.. I'd rather have the plague.
[19:35:19] <pfred1> yeah if the powder is white it's no good
[19:35:33] <les> It's ten till five but since I officially declared that the weekend has begun....pwshhh goes the beer can pop top!
[19:35:35] <les> cheers.
[19:35:38] <pfred1> off yellow now you have something there!
[19:35:38] <Phydbleep> white, pink, yellow, blue.. I avoid them all.
[19:36:01] <pfred1> I'll drink beer in a can when they can Sam Adams
[19:36:43] <les> ah a sam adams fan
[19:36:49] <les> abit sweet for me
[19:36:58] <les> but it is good beer.
[19:36:59] <pfred1> if I was gay he'd be my gay lover!
[19:37:15] <pfred1> hmm he makes lots of different kinds
[19:37:20] <les> bmph haw
[19:37:21] <pfred1> which one's too sweet for you?
[19:37:31] <les> sam
[19:37:43] <pfred1> well he makes a lager an ale a seasonal
[19:38:02] <pfred1> heck he makes one beer it's $2,000 a bottle!
[19:38:09] <les> I still have not started next batch
[19:38:11] <pfred1> I haven't had that one yet
[19:38:28] <pfred1> but something tells me it may just be something special
[19:38:47] <les> I think I will go half rice, half pale malt
[19:39:00] <pfred1> know what's good beer in a can?
[19:39:08] <pfred1> them Guinesses with the whizzers in them
[19:39:16] <pfred1> man that stuff is good!
[19:39:35] <les> hmm need nitrogen to pressurize that stuff
[19:39:45] <pfred1> that's what teh whizzer does i think
[19:39:51] <les> oh
[19:40:01] <les> never had it in a can so don't know
[19:40:08] <pfred1> least i hope it's not a dead rat that's inside the can
[19:40:08] <paul_c> pfred1 needs to learn about beer.... that black irish stuff isn't.
[19:40:13] <pfred1> yeah it's horrible bottled
[19:40:25] <pfred1> paul_c you need vise grips
[19:40:34] <Phydbleep> beer in cans? BLASPHEMY!
[19:40:37] <pfred1> so as you can pull the needle that's jambed up your ass out!
[19:41:02] <paul_c> guinesss != beer.
[19:41:12] <paul_c> guinesss == old sump oil.
[19:41:13] <pfred1> yeah yeah it's stout it's all beer to me
[19:41:17] <les> well...I just blasphemed
[19:41:33] <les> will you find it in your heart to forgive me?
[19:41:41] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has learath silly-stringed at the stake for heresy.
[19:41:48] <Phydbleep> ???
[19:41:52] <pfred1> we used to drink Olympia in a can when we could get it for $4 a case
[19:41:56] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has les silly-stringed at the stake for heresy.
[19:41:59] <Jymmm> les you must now drink 5 kegs before midnight for forgiveness
[19:42:12] <pfred1> it's the water!
[19:42:18] <les> yes father
[19:42:37] <Phydbleep> Ewww... Water.. Fish fornicate in that stuff..
[19:42:44] <pfred1> we used to drink this swill out of PA but ever since the microbrewery craze it's ogtten too expensive now
[19:42:57] <pfred1> Yeuling
[19:43:06] <pfred1> we used to pay like $6 a case for it
[19:43:23] <les> you can make really good beer for almost nothing
[19:43:47] <pfred1> yeah we had dreams of brewing our own beer but that never happened
[19:44:00] <les> lagers take a long time though...have to cold age a month or so
[19:44:12] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. I used to buy Rainier for $3/case for revenge purposes...
[19:44:28] <pfred1> damn $3 a case? Sign me up!
[19:44:41] <Jymmm> pfred1 <--- beer slut
[19:44:45] <Phydbleep> Feed a pit-bull a case of cheap beer and a dozen pickled eggs. :)
[19:44:47] <les> cheapest rice beer is $10/case down here
[19:45:02] <Phydbleep> pfred1: 1986..
[19:45:30] <pfred1> Phydbleep can't say as i can recall very much from that year
[19:45:48] <pfred1> lets see 4 years out of high school what was i doing?
[19:45:50] <Jymmm> * Jymmm lol @ pfred1
[19:46:04] <pfred1> more like what wasn't I doing be a much shorter list
[19:46:05] <Phydbleep> pfred1: 1986 in Vancouver WA.. Buy Rainier off the loading dock @ the brewery.
[19:46:56] <pfred1> back then we'd go into NYC 3 times a day just because we thought the ride was fun or something
[19:46:59] <les> 1986? gawd
[19:47:08] <les> I remember that year
[19:47:14] <Phydbleep> les: Yes my son?
[19:47:19] <les> heh
[19:47:37] <les> that was the year I stopped being an engineer for a while I guess
[19:47:38] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is an ordained minister after all..
[19:47:41] <pfred1> the 80's rocked we didn't realize it at the time but man we had more fun than the hippies did in the 60's
[19:47:59] <les> hey i'm a hippie
[19:48:16] <les> we had an awful lot of fun...
[19:48:17] <pfred1> I was a little young in the 60's but i vaguely remember them
[19:48:31] <pfred1> by the 80's we had it down to a science
[19:48:46] <pfred1> in the 60's you guys were experimenting
[19:48:52] <pfred1> heck we knew the results!
[19:49:04] <les> for me 80's was work work work spend spend spend
[19:49:22] <pfred1> yeah i wish I had something to show for what i spent spent spent on
[19:49:37] <les> buy big house. buy fancy car. make babies.
[19:49:40] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Welcome to the club.
[19:49:58] <pfred1> Phydbleep I guess i got a lot of blurred memories today
[19:50:12] <les> not me.
[19:50:27] <les> give me a year...I'll tell you what I was doing
[19:51:47] <pfred1> didn't one of the Shuttles blow up in 1986?
[19:51:58] <pfred1> I'm trying to remember something from that year
[19:52:02] <les> yeah I think challenger
[19:52:21] <pfred1> man from 85 to i donno what i can't remember much at all today really
[19:52:30] <les> 1986 I bought one of those new funny looking fords
[19:52:36] <les> called taurus
[19:52:38] <pfred1> a Probe?
[19:52:43] <pfred1> oh a Tortise
[19:52:47] <les> yup
[19:52:49] <pfred1> a Ford Tortise
[19:52:51] <Phydbleep> Don't worry pfred1... Reagan couldn't remember the 080's either.
[19:52:57] <les> looked real funny back then
[19:53:04] <pfred1> yeah i remember trickle down economics
[19:53:07] <les> son was born in 1986 too
[19:53:15] <pfred1> we were like what's this mean the rich people are going to piss on us?
[19:53:23] <les> heh
[19:53:32] <pfred1> which they pretty much did
[19:53:52] <les> I threatened to quit from work that year.
[19:53:58] <les> got a promotion.
[19:54:03] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep did not know before that time that piss has lumps..
[19:54:16] <pfred1> today they'd be like you sure you remember your way to the door?
[19:54:31] <asdfqwega> Hmm...talk of politics
[19:54:32] <les> Naw not at all
[19:54:39] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega sets /ignore
[19:55:06] <les> just find someone dumb enough to let you become indespensible
[19:55:08] <paul_c> http://www.whoshouldyouvotefor.com
[19:55:18] <pfred1> ah someone that just pops into a chan reads a few lines and *thinks* they know what the thread is about
[19:55:22] <pfred1> too bad they're wrong
[19:56:05] <paul_c> beer, piss, babies & the 80's
[19:56:07] <Phydbleep> pfred1: So,she's on her back on the couch and you've got her legs up on the mantle..
[19:56:37] <pfred1> Phydbleep is the fire raging?
[19:56:53] <Phydbleep> Sorry.. Monty Python flashback.. :)
[19:56:59] <pfred1> will I be yelling hot nuts anytime soon?
[19:57:04] <Phydbleep> ROFL!
[19:57:22] <asdfqwega> logger_aj, bookmark
[19:57:22] <asdfqwega> See http://193.226.12.129/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2005-04-15#T19-57-22
[19:58:48] <pfred1> yeah I think the 80's were a whole lot of fun today
[19:59:04] <pfred1> tho at the time I don't think i realized it all the time
[19:59:37] <pfred1> I guess being 16 to 26 in them helped for me
[20:00:13] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Born in '64?
[20:00:17] <pfred1> yup
[20:00:36] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... 12/27 here.. :)
[20:01:29] <pfred1> Phydbleep so I guess the 80's were your heyday too then?
[20:02:55] <Phydbleep> Not really.. I went from $3/hour to $8, $16, $32 and back down to $5/hr.
[20:04:08] <pfred1> Phydbleep hey we didn't really need much money to have fun back then
[20:05:05] <Phydbleep> pfred1: The 8/16/32 was in Alaska and was just enough to pay the bills.
[20:05:07] <rayh> I went from 0.40 to ridiculus and back. Wife asks if I've made 0.05 on EMC.
[20:05:35] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep sends rayh $0.25...
[20:05:54] <pfred1> rayh you do EMC to make money?
[20:06:20] <pfred1> rayh me I'm just trying to keep EMC from costing me too much money
[20:06:26] <rayh> I was disabled some a while back and got into emc to pass the time.
[20:06:40] <rayh> I retrofit now and do make a few dollars on it.
[20:07:26] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders what granite block cradek is hiding under.
[20:07:43] <pfred1> ah maybe the weather is nice where they're at too
[20:07:58] <rayh> It is wonderful here.
[20:08:04] <pfred1> the weather is just coming around here
[20:08:12] <pfred1> it could stand to be a little warmer
[20:08:24] <pfred1> but it's not freeze your backside off anymore
[20:08:42] <Phydbleep> 73 here.. hi today 75, lo tonite 51.
[20:08:57] <pfred1> yeah I think we may have hit 60 today
[20:09:08] <pfred1> tomorrow is supposed to be a little nicer
[20:09:19] <pfred1> good yard saling weather i hope!
[20:09:31] <Phydbleep> Of course a week ago it was 35 and pouring rain/snow/sleet/hail..
[20:09:38] <pfred1> I'm going to be plying the shoals of many a yard tomorrow
[20:10:01] <rayh> Ice went off the lake wednesday.
[20:10:05] <pfred1> looking for the "Deal of the Season"
[20:10:23] <pfred1> everyyear now i don't feel like it's complete without one super find
[20:10:49] <pfred1> last year I'd have to give it to my Radial Arm Saw for $20
[20:11:03] <pfred1> tho the Boston Acoustics speakers for free are up there too
[20:12:13] <gezr> Les : are you around?
[20:12:27] <pfred1> gezr everyone knows Les is a square
[20:12:36] <les> heh
[20:12:41] <les> yeah around
[20:12:45] <gezr> hahaha, good he appears to be looking
[20:12:52] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep thought les was more of a tall skinny thing..
[20:12:53] <pfred1> no you're a square peg in a round hole don't lie!
[20:13:05] <gezr> les : what do you think about the miller dynasty 200 or whatever that thing is?
[20:13:13] <les> only one picture of me on the website
[20:13:25] <pfred1> gezr it's al lthat and a bag of chips don't you know?
[20:13:51] <les> dynasty 200 hmm don't know
[20:13:57] <pfred1> gezr is it a welder?
[20:13:57] <les> mig or tig?
[20:14:03] <pfred1> get a Lincoln
[20:14:09] <les> pooh
[20:14:15] <pfred1> lincoln is what the pros choose
[20:14:20] <gezr> les one of the new all inverter powered on any line power 200amp ac/dc tig
[20:14:35] <gezr> lincoln is owned by miller, and as of late is not doing so well
[20:14:48] <les> ahem ok. I work for miller's parent company (some) haha so a bit biased
[20:14:51] <pfred1> yeah see? miller even ruined lincoln!
[20:15:05] <pfred1> * pfred1 has a Miller ...
[20:15:05] <gezr> no lincoln didnt advance the technology
[20:15:15] <pfred1> yeah htey just invented it
[20:15:18] <les> hobart yes . licoln...hmm
[20:15:20] <Jymmm> pfred1 Miller tools, not miller beer
[20:15:20] <Phydbleep> les: Send me a TIG for 'evaluation' :)
[20:15:45] <gezr> les : I was just wondering, it doesnt have a transformer in it and weighs 45lbs, mfg list is 3.2k
[20:15:47] <les> Miller called withsome work after my holiday ends
[20:15:55] <les> welding helmets.
[20:15:57] <pfred1> Jymmm http://69.249.77.18:10000/wood/cshop/shp1/shp1-009.jpg
[20:16:01] <pfred1> a Miller!
[20:16:21] <pfred1> was out there the past few days using it too for a change
[20:16:52] <gezr> i have to go now, I was just wondering, im going fishing this weekend
[20:17:09] <les> bass?
[20:17:17] <Jymmm> pfred1 : http://www.jimsheaphotography.com/variety/images/miller-beer.jpg
[20:17:29] <pfred1> Jymmm I can't stand Miller beer
[20:17:29] <gezr> hybrid, strippers, and hopefuly more walleye then anything
[20:18:10] <pfred1> Jymmm whoosh gives me the chills just thinking about it
[20:18:12] <les> walleye that far south
[20:18:14] <les> hmm
[20:18:19] <les> didn't know that
[20:18:35] <gezr> les : the possibaility exists to catch the world record where ill be fishing
[20:18:44] <les> wow
[20:18:52] <les> have fun
[20:18:55] <pfred1> gezr got a fish finder?
[20:19:09] <gezr> pfred1 : yeah,
[20:19:14] <gezr> lorrance I think
[20:19:16] <pfred1> gezr then you stand some chance
[20:19:23] <gezr> just wanting to go fishing with ma dad
[20:19:25] <rayh> My son-in-law and I had a contest off the dock one evening.
[20:19:35] <pfred1> when we go fishing we're always successful
[20:19:41] <pfred1> but we only go out to catch a buzz
[20:19:42] <rayh> caught 38 legal walleye.
[20:19:58] <rayh> He caught two more than i but I got the biggest.
[20:20:06] <pfred1> fish actually biting cuts into our drinking time and it's annoying
[20:20:18] <Jymmm> pfred1 you mean there's another reason to go fishing besides sitting around getting shit faced?
[20:20:31] <pfred1> Jymmm if there is I haven't found it yet :)
[20:22:22] <Jymmm> The first time i went fishing at 8yo, I caught a 10" rainbow trout with a line on a stick (cause my uncle wouldn't give me a pole - fucker), he was seriously envious and serves him right.
[20:22:37] <pfred1> a fish? what are we going to do with that? the coolers are all full of beer!
[20:22:38] <Jymmm> haven't caught a fush since =)
[20:22:47] <Jymmm> a fish either =)
[20:23:19] <pfred1> Jymmm well there's a rule about a line on a pole tho under 12 you can fish without a license anyways
[20:23:37] <pfred1> I don't think this is the forum to get into the line and pole rule :)
[20:24:19] <rayh> Jymmm: Did you put a hook on the end of the line?
[20:24:35] <Jymmm> rayh yep, and a worm too
[20:24:40] <pfred1> rayh yeah they let them people evne use a hook
[20:25:06] <pfred1> the law is as long as the line is shorter than the pole
[20:25:30] <rayh> And no fish!
[20:25:35] <Jymmm> pfred1 well he was a cheap batard anyway
[20:25:52] <rayh> Skinny worms?
[20:27:26] <rayh> gotta go out for a while. catch yo all later.
[20:27:33] <Jymmm> c ya ray
[20:30:25] <Jymmm> pfred1 And he didn't catch a damn thing either!
[20:31:22] <pfred1> best fishing i ever done freshwater was one day in Maine at the mouth of this brook
[20:31:34] <pfred1> I caught 13 trout that morning
[20:31:41] <pfred1> threw them all back in though
[20:31:57] <pfred1> had i known I was going to catch so much I'd have kept them from the start
[20:32:50] <pfred1> the thrill was i caught them all on flies I'd made myself
[20:32:59] <pfred1> was fly fishing only water
[20:33:10] <pfred1> they got mad restrictions there!
[20:35:48] <les> i like to fish. I grew up on the water.
[20:36:21] <les> Might get a boat this summer. Don't have one right now
[20:36:29] <les> I want a wood runabout
[20:38:25] <pfred1> les there's lots of plans for making a boat on the Internet
[20:38:34] <pfred1> it kind of has me a little interested
[20:38:41] <les> no time to scratch build
[20:38:52] <pfred1> my neighbor down south has the HMS Titanic parked in his front yard
[20:38:56] <les> resoring a cris craft or something would be nice
[20:39:02] <pfred1> least that's what i call his boat
[20:39:12] <les> heh
[20:39:34] <pfred1> once he put one of them silver tarps on it I thought the spacemen were invading!
[20:39:48] <pfred1> I was like what the hell is that?
[20:39:56] <les> I have too many vehicular hobbies I guess though
[20:40:06] <pfred1> I didn't know if he put up a new building or what
[20:40:12] <les> ha
[20:40:25] <pfred1> but it was only his boat with a silver tarp on it
[20:40:43] <pfred1> yeah i'm jealous of him he's got like everything
[20:41:16] <les> I was always fixing up boats in florida.
[20:41:19] <pfred1> les bah you're Mr Woodworker i bet yo ucould throw something nice together in a weekend
[20:41:37] <les> naw boats take a lot of time
[20:41:51] <les> my dad designed and built a 22 foot sailboat
[20:41:56] <pfred1> depends you caul up a plywood jobbie
[20:41:58] <les> it took over a year
[20:42:13] <pfred1> yeah well he probably was doing it to get away from the wife and kids ...
[20:42:22] <pfred1> not to actually finish it anytime too soon
[20:42:23] <les> yeah like me haha
[20:42:40] <pfred1> go away can't yo usee I'm working on my boat!
[20:43:18] <pfred1> yeah a buddy of mine restored a sailboat took him 3 years I think
[20:43:23] <les> best bet for me is to find a mahogany runabout that is rough but not rotten
[20:43:32] <les> with a v-8.
[20:43:43] <pfred1> his boat I think it'd had burnt before he got it
[20:43:51] <pfred1> so the deck was totally shot
[20:44:16] <pfred1> I've been out on it it's real nice
[20:44:31] <pfred1> he also worked in boatyards before he did it
[20:44:34] <les> wood?
[20:44:45] <pfred1> the deck is wood but it's fiberglass hull
[20:44:54] <les> I see
[20:44:55] <pfred1> he told me what kind it is once I forget now
[20:45:16] <pfred1> what i remember is it's old when fiberglass first came out and this is what he said about it
[20:45:27] <pfred1> he said this is from when they didn't know what they were doing
[20:45:34] <pfred1> the thing is like 1 1/4 thick!
[20:45:35] <les> I could haul fairly heavy boats with my truck I guess
[20:45:46] <les> wow
[20:45:53] <pfred1> it was made before anyone really knew what fiberglass could do
[20:45:58] <pfred1> yeah it's nuts
[20:46:14] <pfred1> he showd me a core he holesawed out of it
[20:46:42] <pfred1> salty Dave
[20:46:50] <les> here is what the lakes look like around here:
[20:46:54] <les> http://www.century21poss.com/lbscene.htm
[20:47:06] <pfred1> les hmm nice
[20:47:18] <pfred1> yeah i got the ocean and the bay
[20:48:00] <pfred1> http://69.249.77.18:10000/new/Multimedia/ToBay.jpg
[20:48:08] <pfred1> the star is where my house is
[20:49:35] <les> oh ok
[20:49:42] <les> pretty close to water
[20:49:50] <pfred1> so I'll have some water to play in not too far away from me
[20:49:56] <pfred1> yeah like 15 minutes
[20:50:23] <paul_c> pfred1: You doing the codeFest ?
[20:50:45] <pfred1> paul_c wasn't planning to where is it?
[20:50:55] <paul_c> Gaithersburg
[20:51:15] <pfred1> paul_c where is Gaithersburg ?
[20:51:30] <paul_c> Md - 20 mins N. of DC
[20:51:35] <pfred1> oh
[20:52:05] <pfred1> I went to a Linuxworld once
[20:52:15] <pfred1> was at the Jacob Javits convention center in NYC
[20:53:26] <pfred1> paul_c really DC is pretty far from both of my places
[20:53:47] <pfred1> and 20 minutes north of it well that doesn't make it any closer
[20:54:10] <paul_c> http://tinyurl.com/5c473
[20:55:28] <pfred1> heck I've been all around there at one time or another but not for a long long time
[20:56:12] <pfred1> paul_c just between me and you I think DC is like a slum :O
[20:56:34] <pfred1> some nice museums there shame they're there
[20:57:12] <pfred1> that's awful driving between baltimore and DC
[20:57:17] <paul_c> * paul_c won't be visiting DC
[20:57:48] <pfred1> yeah I think they got like the highest homocide rate in the country now or some such honor
[20:59:08] <pfred1> I guess it's close to the same distance I'm going now to my other house just well it's a lot harder a trip
[21:00:08] <pfred1> paul_c it's one of those doesn't look too hard on paper deals but i know better now
[21:13:02] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ was in south africa and has also survived
[21:22:05] <Phydbleep> Imperator_: To visit or living there?.
[21:22:22] <Imperator_> for a two week visit
[21:22:34] <Imperator_> buiness travel :-)
[21:23:10] <Phydbleep> Imperator_: You've got to watch out replying to those 419's....
[21:23:11] <Imperator_> nice country
[21:23:37] <Imperator_> 419 ???
[21:25:06] <Phydbleep> Nigerian $ spam.. 419 is the criminal code # for it in Nigeria.
[21:25:32] <pfred1> Phydbleep when you're there a 419 is the least of your concerns
[21:25:49] <pfred1> they they think raping a virgin is the cure for AIDs amongst other things ...
[21:27:53] <Imperator_> Phydbleep: where are you located ???
[21:30:54] <Phydbleep> Imperator_: New Mexico.. Land of the flea, Home of the plague... :)
[21:31:22] <Imperator_> :-)
[21:31:49] <Imperator_> south germany here
[21:32:11] <Imperator_> no flea's here
[21:33:02] <Imperator_> but ticks are alive again
[21:36:34] <pfred1> Phydbleep I want yo ustanding on the border shooting the illegals as they try to run in!
[21:36:47] <pfred1> if i was there that's what I'd be doing
[21:37:20] <pfred1> the federal government should let you write off ammo to do that with
[21:38:35] <pfred1> help Mexico get a team together for the 2012 Olympics keep them from running jumping or swimming into the US
[21:42:01] <les> whew
[21:42:06] <les> hello martin
[21:43:14] <les> after sticking all the drill bits in my newly made wood drill caddy shelf I see I an missing many
[21:43:46] <pfred1> les hey don't feel too badly
[21:43:51] <les> 1/64-1/2...0-60...a-z
[21:44:27] <pfred1> les I went through the trouble of making this one nite http://69.249.77.18:10000/new/Multimedia/PicsITook/Delaware/10thGarage/p4110009.jpg
[21:44:39] <les> It's the sort of thing that you can do on holiday...but can't justify in regular work
[21:44:43] <pfred1> then the next day Iwent to grab the 3/4 wrench out of that set doh it's not there!
[21:45:15] <les> nice
[21:45:21] <pfred1> and i still haven't found that wrench for that set tho I have looked some for it
[21:45:34] <pfred1> yeah it will be if i got enough room to cut another slot into it when i do find the wrench
[21:45:47] <les> I had better order the whole thing from msc monday
[21:45:59] <les> another complete set
[21:46:10] <pfred1> little bits don't you order like bags of 12?
[21:46:29] <les> funny thing I can diamond sharpen carbide end mills...but not small drills
[21:46:41] <pfred1> I find the small ones to be sort of pains to sharpen and they break a lot on me
[21:46:43] <les> I will just order sets
[21:46:50] <pfred1> yeah the little ones are hard to sharpen
[21:46:52] <gezr> easy to do small drills by hand
[21:47:00] <les> it would take hours to order up individual ones
[21:47:14] <pfred1> they don't offer single sizes in bags?
[21:47:15] <gezr> going fishing tommrow, going to clean today
[21:47:33] <les> gezr I can do down to about 1/8 ok
[21:47:48] <les> but #59? forget it
[21:47:49] <gezr> yeah, below and 1/8 can be tough
[21:48:05] <gezr> 4 facet
[21:48:38] <les> yeah that is what I do pretty much except for big ones
[21:49:00] <Phydbleep> les: What's ths HP on the small mill you were talking about?
[21:49:36] <les> Phy...not sure. It is a subject for discussion
[21:49:43] <les> 2 or 3 I guess
[21:49:57] <Phydbleep> 20x20x20?? 1.5-3 PMDC.
[21:50:19] <les> 3 would need 1000 ipm for foam
[21:50:22] <Phydbleep> That's inches nor mm's right?
[21:50:33] <Phydbleep> s/nor/not
[21:50:41] <les> but could do no more than 30 or so in aluminum
[21:50:49] <les> inches yes
[21:51:22] <les> It would typically be a high speed two pole 3 phase induction motor
[21:51:34] <Phydbleep> How much for a chassis? no motors/amps..
[21:51:41] <les> 18 krpm @300 hz
[21:51:54] <les> 24krpm @ 400
[21:52:11] <les> chassis?
[21:52:19] <les> I don't know yet.
[21:52:37] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep would run 24kRPM @ 50-100kHz..
[21:53:08] <les> But if we do this silly deal I guess I could get you a break on just a chassis
[21:53:22] <les> a bit early though
[21:53:29] <les> this is scary
[21:53:30] <Phydbleep> Makes it real easy to adapt the speed on the fly.
[21:53:39] <les> large sums of money are involved
[21:54:09] <les> you are talking pwm to a dc motor I guess
[21:54:19] <pfred1> yes and on the heels of "Dow tanks nearly 200 points, falling for the 3rd day as IBM and economic news ..."
[21:54:26] <Phydbleep> Don't wave them at me.. I'll just pay bills with it. :)
[21:54:39] <les> I am watching that
[21:54:44] <les> scary
[21:54:53] <les> but hopefully just noise
[21:55:41] <Phydbleep> les: That is why I'm pushing to get cnc to a cheap and easy state... Major manufacturing is dead in this country, so small scale will be it.
[21:56:14] <pfred1> yeah why don't we just bomb China and be done with it?
[21:56:55] <les> who said I would be manufacturing here?
[21:56:58] <les> heh
[21:56:59] <pfred1> do it now and keep the casualties down a little because we're goingto do it eventually
[21:57:04] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Because they could start wading into the Bering Strait and only lose 15% of their troops as a bridge?
[21:57:04] <les> but I say too much
[21:57:30] <pfred1> they are at the Japanese throats over gas drilling rights right now
[21:57:51] <pfred1> that and I'm suprised the Taiwan issue hasn't exploded yet
[21:58:35] <pfred1> Phydbleep yeah being as 50% of their troops are only armed with wooden pitchforks what does it matter?
[21:59:26] <les> to put things in perspective...(according to cnn) China's economy is about the same size as italy
[21:59:38] <pfred1> yeah squash them now!
[21:59:48] <les> heh
[21:59:58] <pfred1> well it's going to come down to it eventually
[22:00:06] <les> might
[22:00:30] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Well.. With all the troops/guns/ammo being shipped to Iraq/etc.. All it would take is 15 martians and 1 death-ray to take over....
[22:00:31] <pfred1> after we bowl through Iran I say next we hit them and that Kim il jung guy
[22:00:42] <les> but there are fundamental cultural differences that can slow industrialization
[22:01:12] <pfred1> because he's a real piece of work
[22:01:32] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ wounders if all americans are like Phydbleep and pfred1 ???
[22:01:39] <les> aw he is just big man/small town
[22:01:47] <pfred1> Imperator_ it's just being realistic
[22:02:04] <les> martin no we vary a great deal
[22:02:39] <pfred1> truth justice and the american way we gotta esport something
[22:02:44] <pfred1> export even
[22:02:44] <Imperator_> the problem is that your president is thinking also like this, and thats why your contry has a problem
[22:02:59] <pfred1> nothing we haven't been able to blow up yet I don't think :)
[22:03:07] <les> I do agree with that martin
[22:03:14] <les> it just so happens
[22:03:35] <pfred1> in a dangerious world sometimes you just have to be more dangerious
[22:03:36] <Phydbleep> I just want off this rock so I'm out of the way when the monkees start throwing feces again..
[22:03:37] <Imperator_> shit happens
[22:04:10] <les> haha
[22:04:18] <Phydbleep> "Vesta or Bust" :)
[22:04:20] <pfred1> thing is world population is fast approaching what the planet can support
[22:04:42] <pfred1> after that I donno how htings are going to be thankfully I won't be here to find out :)
[22:04:47] <les> the avian flu will fix that
[22:04:53] <Phydbleep> That is the other reason.. Get off this rock and out where there's room to play. :)
[22:05:07] <pfred1> les yeah Africa is pretty much being wiped out now
[22:05:09] <les> yeah
[22:05:26] <les> Nature will limit the population...don't worry
[22:05:37] <pfred1> well that's what's got me worried
[22:05:38] <Phydbleep> Nature is a mother. :)
[22:05:41] <les> antibiotics will stop working
[22:05:48] <pfred1> nature might not be as selective as I'd like it to be
[22:06:05] <les> yellowstone will pop off sometime
[22:06:16] <les> asteroids will hit
[22:06:23] <pfred1> not in my lifetime!@
[22:06:30] <les> heh
[22:06:40] <pfred1> nah they got all that stuff figured out now
[22:06:49] <pfred1> nothing big going to hit the planet
[22:07:02] <les> it's very unlikely
[22:07:13] <pfred1> well not in a real long time at anyrate
[22:07:22] <pfred1> least next 450 years or so
[22:07:23] <les> prob right
[22:07:30] <les> or it could happen tommorow
[22:07:33] <pfred1> they say we should be good through then
[22:07:42] <pfred1> nah they look for that sort of things
[22:07:52] <Phydbleep> We're all going to die! And it will probably be some bureaucrats fault..
[22:07:53] <les> yes they do
[22:08:12] <pfred1> they got people with nothing better to do than to plot the trajectories of anything floating arounnd in space
[22:09:24] <les> PHY: you are 100% correct we are all going to die... every person on earth now...and most within 50 years!
[22:09:27] <les> oh no
[22:09:29] <pfred1> what has me worried is an ocean inversion that brings up frozen methane
[22:09:49] <les> um...don't worry.
[22:09:51] <pfred1> seems like it has happened in the past
[22:10:01] <pfred1> don't worry about the entire atmosphere igniting?
[22:10:10] <les> you mean methane hydrate?
[22:10:41] <pfred1> I just hear the bottom of the oceans has like solid methane layer
[22:10:54] <pfred1> it's frozen from pressure and the temp
[22:10:57] <les> it is kept stable mostly by pressure I think
[22:11:14] <pfred1> yeah but if it all came up for some odd reason like thermal pollution or something
[22:11:34] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is more worried about HAARP + a CME (coronal mass ejection from the sun) making the whole atmosphere lase for 30 seconds..
[22:11:37] <les> termites are the real methane makers
[22:12:01] <pfred1> yup 60% of the methane in the atmosphere is termite farts!
[22:12:17] <pfred1> they're the real dominant species on the planet
[22:13:02] <pfred1> there's something like 3000 pounds of termintes for every human being on the planet so they outweigh up
[22:13:34] <pfred1> us even
[22:13:50] <les> I wouldn't be suprised
[22:14:15] <pfred1> humanity is a flash in the pan
[22:14:35] <les> yeah prob....darn
[22:14:40] <pfred1> real question is when is the big flash going to happen
[22:15:13] <les> perhaps in 5 seconds
[22:15:19] <les> heh
[22:15:32] <pfred1> it may
[22:15:42] <Imperator_> �h termites, the bigger ants ???
[22:15:43] <les> ohh...time is past...made it a little while longer
[22:16:05] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep can say with reasonable certainty that it will be sometime between now and whenever.. :)
[22:16:09] <pfred1> yeah i have a feeling I'm good to go for a normal life
[22:16:22] <Imperator_> cattles are big methane makers
[22:16:25] <pfred1> but kids younger than me well good luck
[22:16:26] <les> most likely
[22:16:37] <les> aw they will be fine
[22:16:49] <pfred1> personally I'd be very suprised if the human race makes it another 150 years
[22:17:01] <les> can you tell that I am an aging hippie?
[22:17:11] <Phydbleep> More than the big flash-off my worry is religious loonies..
[22:17:17] <pfred1> nah they've already done the experiments too many rats in too small a cage gets ugly
[22:17:31] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep gives it 10 years tops.
[22:17:38] <pfred1> psychologically humans are very similar to rats
[22:17:49] <les> oh from politics to religion haha ok
[22:18:02] <pfred1> personally i think rats might just be a tad nobler than your common run of the mill human
[22:20:07] <les> heh
[22:23:16] <les> so you see all sorts of opinions here in north america Martin
[22:23:35] <pfred1> yeah wipe out the rest of the world to protect the American way of life!
[22:23:38] <pfred1> :)
[22:23:51] <pfred1> because htey can't all expect to live how we live!
[22:23:56] <Imperator_> please not
[22:24:03] <les> heh
[22:24:27] <pfred1> years ago I remember hearing a stat that the US consumes 5 times the resources of the rest of the world put together but was less than 1/5th the population
[22:24:40] <les> i can voice opinions too martin
[22:24:45] <pfred1> that sort of put it all into perspective for me
[22:24:48] <les> I don't like bush
[22:25:01] <les> I don't likre the oil crusades
[22:25:13] <pfred1> les he may be just the bastard we need in there right now to do the dirty work that needs doing
[22:25:29] <les> I don't like the huge corporations trying to make me a slave
[22:25:34] <pfred1> now they're planning on permanent military bases in Afghanistan of course :)
[22:25:47] <pfred1> got to hold the ground we've taken
[22:25:55] <les> oil.
[22:26:27] <pfred1> the whole Afganistan deal was because the taliban couldn't guarantee Haliburten's pipeline could be protected
[22:26:28] <les> aw it will all sort out when the oil runs out
[22:26:41] <Imperator_> oil crusades are nessesary for bush, because he will be killed if it gets to expensive
[22:26:48] <pfred1> being as we're draining Uzbeckistan of their oil
[22:27:35] <pfred1> that and there just wasn't enough high grade heroin on the steets anymore
[22:27:36] <les> yes martin...and we don't fund fusion and other viable energy sources
[22:27:47] <les> Bush is an oil man!
[22:28:01] <pfred1> bush is a total scumbag plain and simple
[22:28:07] <les> heh
[22:28:22] <pfred1> him and his whole family and everyone he knows
[22:28:42] <pfred1> heck he's buddy buddy with Osama
[22:29:11] <pfred1> you remember after 911 and the whole country was on no fly lockdown?
[22:29:25] <les> well you have to personalize the oil thing
[22:29:25] <pfred1> bush got the bin ladens out of boston I saw the plane fly here
[22:29:41] <pfred1> being as they're close family friends
[22:29:48] <les> I remember the land now order
[22:30:03] <les> I was not piloting aircraft at that time
[22:30:06] <pfred1> that was a real peaceful few days around here
[22:30:18] <les> but talked to some of my friends who were
[22:30:36] <les> it was "land NOW"
[22:30:42] <les> nearest airport
[22:31:12] <pfred1> unconstitutional
[22:31:19] <pfred1> americans have the right of travel
[22:31:31] <les> not on that day heh
[22:31:59] <pfred1> the people who give up liberty for security deserve neither
[22:32:02] <pfred1> ben franklin
[22:32:04] <Imperator_> do you realy have some rights anymore ???
[22:32:14] <pfred1> hell yeah
[22:32:16] <les> bush got in AF1 and they went to fl45
[22:32:24] <les> then hid in a mountain
[22:32:32] <pfred1> yeah he's such a coward
[22:33:06] <les> FL 45 is pretty high for a 747
[22:34:17] <les> not a heck of a lot of difference between stall speed and VNE up there
[22:34:19] <pfred1> Imperator_ the US people are the most heavily armed group bar none
[22:34:39] <pfred1> we used to joke that if the soviet union ever tried to invade they'd never make it through Harlem
[22:35:24] <les> hmmm an hour ago I talked to a neighbor...he is a colonel in the reserve...just got back from iroq
[22:35:42] <pfred1> les how'd he get back lose 2 legs and an arm?
[22:35:48] <les> He said each household there is allotted one ak47
[22:36:05] <les> He is a surgeon
[22:36:27] <pfred1> ah so he got replaced by that robotic thing the army is working on?
[22:36:31] <pfred1> CNC surgery!
[22:36:33] <les> heh
[22:37:06] <pfred1> yeah we're real close to taking the human factor entirely out of warfare
[22:37:08] <les> His deployment put his nurses and other staff out of work for 6 months
[22:37:30] <les> He is an engineer too
[22:38:06] <pfred1> there are moral implications of that though not having people on the battlefield
[22:38:29] <pfred1> but we're going to do it regardless
[22:38:47] <les> he said it was nasty over there...real nasty
[22:39:03] <pfred1> les not nearly as nasty as it'd be if someone was over here
[22:39:10] <pfred1> not by a long shot!
[22:39:10] <les> yeah
[22:39:56] <pfred1> at the end of WWI some screwball american called for an attack within an hour of the armistise being signed
[22:40:07] <pfred1> he was like the war still isn't over go!
[22:40:30] <pfred1> we still got another hour to kill them don't waste it
[22:40:35] <les> hmmm ww1 ended with the treaty of trianon
[22:40:52] <les> and I got to spend a couple nights at the trianon
[22:40:56] <pfred1> yeah and an hour before it was over americans were still looking for combat
[22:41:06] <les> heh
[22:41:23] <pfred1> yeah it was totally scummy guy was just looking for some glory was completely uncalled for
[22:41:44] <les> The trianon was the fanciest place I ever stayed at I guess
[22:42:03] <pfred1> their roaches had to wear tuxes?
[22:42:10] <les> just about
[22:42:12] <pfred1> there's a dress code here!
[22:42:13] <Phydbleep> Too bad Australia is inhabited.. We could ship them all over there and let them wave their genitalia and howl at each other..
[22:42:29] <les> heh
[22:42:40] <les> my part time engineer is an aussie
[22:42:55] <les> aw he's ok
[22:43:28] <Phydbleep> There's nothing wrong with Aussies.
[22:43:44] <les> I had an aussie GF
[22:43:51] <les> they have a problem
[22:44:02] <les> I think they are starved of men
[22:44:12] <les> I got that impression anyway
[22:44:25] <les> great fun though.
[22:45:00] <pfred1> Phydbleep I guess you haven't seen Chopper yet
[22:45:25] <Phydbleep> I saw "Dead End Drive Inn"..
[22:45:29] <pfred1> Phydbleep http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0221073/
[22:47:13] <pfred1> * pfred1 thinks all aussies are something like Chopper ...
[22:47:33] <les> oh we have a drive in
[22:47:46] <les> one of very few in the country
[22:47:56] <les> http://www.tigerdrivein.com/
[22:47:58] <pfred1> drive ins are great fun
[22:48:26] <les> we did the tiger art work
[22:48:32] <pfred1> les last one i was at broadcast the soundtrack on like the AM radio so yo ucould use your car stereo not the crappy speaker on the post deal
[22:49:17] <les> yes this does too...fm...but I remember the crappy post speaker sond fondly
[22:49:39] <les> and of course you get drunk and drive off with it still on the window
[22:50:06] <pfred1> yeah I remember I saw Pink Floyd's The Wall and Cheech and Chong's Nice Dreams double feature
[22:50:13] <les> cool
[22:50:24] <les> perfect DI double feature
[22:50:37] <pfred1> years later I watched The Wall and was waiting for things that simply did not happen in the movie
[22:50:50] <les> edited?
[22:51:00] <pfred1> but i can remember seeing them when I watched it at that drive in
[22:51:04] <pfred1> no I was totally wasted
[22:51:32] <les> I just remember those things I did with girls in back seats
[22:52:05] <les> They would say "WHAT are you DOING???!!"
[22:52:14] <les> translation:
[22:52:18] <pfred1> donno but we'll figure that out as we go along
[22:52:23] <les> do anything you want
[22:52:48] <pfred1> or quit messing around and get to it
[22:53:11] <les> I just remember the padding in bras when I was in high school
[22:53:14] <les> oh well
[22:54:27] <pfred1> yeah I like drive ins way better than theatres
[22:54:34] <les> yeah
[22:54:45] <les> I don't go to the tiger drive in
[22:54:55] <les> I don't have a date!
[22:55:08] <pfred1> another silly stat there's enough calories on the floors of US theatres to feed al lthe hungry people in India
[22:55:22] <les> haha
[22:55:43] <pfred1> and form the theatres I've been in I wouldn't argue with that one!
[22:55:50] <pfred1> sticky floors
[22:57:09] <Imperator_> remember a girl i had. She went to Texas for a year. when she returned she was as tall as wide
[22:57:25] <les> ha martin
[22:57:33] <Imperator_> :-(
[22:57:48] <pfred1> Imperator_ so you're saying that horizontally she got taller?
[22:57:49] <Imperator_> but three weeks later she was ok again :-)
[22:58:06] <les> I would like to see how old GF look these days.
[22:58:22] <les> it would be a prunefest I guess
[22:58:27] <pfred1> les men do age more gracefully
[22:58:31] <Imperator_> pfred1: yeah a bit ;-)
[22:58:37] <les> I think so.
[22:58:39] <pfred1> well most of us do
[22:59:08] <Imperator_> like girls with about 48-55kg
[22:59:33] <Imperator_> and 165-175cm tall
[22:59:59] <les> Beard is just getting a little white...ok I admit it the photo on the web site is 5 or 6 years old.
[23:00:17] <pfred1> a lot can happen in 5-6 years!
[23:00:25] <les> yeah
[23:00:28] <Imperator_> hi John
[23:00:29] <pfred1> none of it good usually
[23:00:29] <les> hey john
[23:00:34] <jmkasunich> hi les
[23:00:46] <jmkasunich> and Imperator ;-)
[23:00:57] <jmkasunich> paul around?
[23:01:04] <les> should be
[23:01:13] <pfred1> here's me last year doing the usual http://69.249.77.18:10000/personal/Bday/PaulDrinking.jpg
[23:01:14] <les> he stays up...
[23:01:17] <jmkasunich> got a 4.20 question....
[23:02:22] <jmkasunich> just realized (after nearly a week) that my 4.20 box isn't asking me to log in
[23:02:22] <les> ah pfred an activity I love
[23:02:31] <pfred1> lifting weights?
[23:02:35] <pfred1> 12 oz at a time?
[23:02:37] <les> heh
[23:02:50] <les> jmk: not asking for a logon?
[23:03:07] <jmkasunich> right - boots right into KDE, and lets me do whatever I want
[23:03:16] <Imperator_> btw. time for a good german beer
[23:03:21] <les> I know he mentioned you don't need tyo be root anymore
[23:03:37] <pfred1> Imperator_ there's no such thing we buy all your good hops
[23:03:56] <jmkasunich> I understand that (and I'm not root), but I still expected to have to log into the system as a normal user
[23:04:00] <les> martin: yes have a fine german beer. Cheers!
[23:04:15] <les> HMM
[23:04:25] <les> BETTER PM PAUL I guess
[23:04:29] <les> oops
[23:04:36] <les> key stuck
[23:04:52] <Imperator_> cheers
[23:05:00] <Imperator_> btw which brand
[23:05:32] <les> don't know...they are allgood by law
[23:05:42] <pfred1> Imperator_ here was some of the damage from that nite http://69.249.77.18:10000/personal/Bday/TheBeer2.jpg
[23:05:47] <pfred1> one's a german beer
[23:06:46] <pfred1> EKU Kulminator 28 the strongest beer known to man!
[23:06:52] <Imperator_> nice breech
[23:07:08] <Imperator_> how many % ?
[23:07:14] <pfred1> 13.5
[23:07:23] <pfred1> it's the original ice beer
[23:07:25] <Imperator_> ah ok
[23:08:03] <Imperator_> like the bavarian strong beer
[23:08:05] <pfred1> it doesn't count for the world's record because it's concentrated by an unnatural process
[23:08:21] <Imperator_> :-(
[23:08:32] <pfred1> but man that stuff will mess you up!
[23:08:39] <Imperator_> here in germany we have the "Reinheitsgebot"
[23:08:50] <pfred1> we call it the 6 pack in a bottle beer
[23:09:56] <Imperator_> how many % has a normal american beer
[23:10:02] <les> 5
[23:10:08] <pfred1> I guess maybe 3.5% ?
[23:10:12] <pfred1> is it that high?
[23:10:14] <les> no 5
[23:10:18] <les> yeah
[23:10:20] <Imperator_> ok same here 5%
[23:10:52] <Imperator_> here 5% is normal I think
[23:10:58] <pfred1> years ago I used to drink like all german beers
[23:11:06] <pfred1> hacker pschorr
[23:11:12] <pfred1> kulmbachers
[23:11:22] <Imperator_> Krumbacher
[23:11:29] <les> I still will if someone gives then to me heh
[23:11:35] <pfred1> no the things i drank were called kulmbachers
[23:11:44] <les> but I brew the stuff now.
[23:11:59] <Imperator_> :-)
[23:12:10] <pfred1> where you get hops from?
[23:12:16] <les> hey martin I am half german...
[23:12:18] <pfred1> I thought that stuff was federally regulated
[23:12:26] <les> naw
[23:12:33] <Imperator_> here in germany every village has his own breewery
[23:12:33] <pfred1> les I don't look german do I?
[23:12:37] <les> hollerhau hops
[23:12:56] <les> pfred: yeah sme
[23:13:03] <pfred1> les you think?
[23:13:04] <les> some
[23:13:12] <les> could be.
[23:13:23] <pfred1> I could probably go unnoticed on any typical nazi propaganda poster
[23:13:32] <Imperator_> les: congratulation
[23:13:34] <les> heh
[23:13:50] <pfred1> but I'm irish too
[23:13:54] <les> martin: brewing good beer is hard
[23:14:19] <pfred1> it's the irish in me that's the real control i have when I'm drinking
[23:14:30] <Imperator_> jep
[23:14:35] <les> My first wife was irish
[23:14:45] <les> you know what they say...
[23:14:48] <pfred1> was she a drunken lush?
[23:15:03] <les> no she didn't drink!!??
[23:15:07] <Imperator_> a frend had onece a girl how was master brewer
[23:15:12] <pfred1> what kind of an irish woman was she?
[23:15:32] <les> fun and mean like all irishgirls
[23:15:50] <pfred1> I've never met a sober person of irish descent yet
[23:15:52] <les> martin: a gir5l brewer?
[23:16:04] <les> girl
[23:16:05] <pfred1> yeah I'm in love tell me more
[23:16:10] <les> me too
[23:16:25] <pfred1> she's female and she can make beer that's perfect!
[23:16:39] <pfred1> what more could a guy ask for?
[23:16:45] <les> I need a phone nimber.
[23:16:52] <les> number
[23:16:57] <les> not nimber
[23:17:01] <pfred1> yeah we can tell les is excited
[23:17:06] <Imperator_> les: yep
[23:17:09] <les> what is a niber anyway?
[23:17:13] <les> heh
[23:17:24] <pfred1> a limber number?
[23:17:30] <pfred1> yeah is she a limber number?
[23:17:42] <les> yes I mistype at just the thought
[23:17:54] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[23:18:19] <Imperator_> �h, limber number ???
[23:18:24] <jmkasunich> rebooting
[23:18:26] <les> STOP IT...you and the anhauser busch company are confusing me
[23:18:47] <SWPadnos> damn - I just wanted to ask jmk something :(
[23:19:03] <les> he will be back in a min
[23:19:18] <Phydbleep> les: I had nothing to do with it, I was feeding the dog... To the cat..
[23:19:19] <SWPadnos> I see - well, at least we'll know how long it takes his machine to reboot :(
[23:19:20] <SWPadnos> :)
[23:19:34] <les> yup
[23:20:01] <Imperator_> ok beer is empty
[23:20:12] <pfred1> Imperator_ that's so sad
[23:20:15] <les> but tummy is full?
[23:20:18] <Imperator_> :-)
[23:20:26] <Imperator_> time for bed
[23:20:29] <pfred1> 100 reasons why a beer is better than a woman
[23:20:36] <les> good night martin
[23:20:58] <pfred1> a beer will never look at you funny if you put it down to pick up another one
[23:21:05] <les> heh
[23:21:09] <Imperator_> you know that in beer are female homones
[23:21:17] <les> huh?
[23:21:23] <les> uh oh
[23:21:36] <les> fast boot!
[23:21:39] <pfred1> I know beer makes al lwomen look better
[23:21:46] <SWPadnos> ah - back again jmk - only 3 minutes
[23:21:49] <jmkasunich> newer box
[23:21:50] <Imperator_> if you drink beer you are talking shit and you cant drive anymore
[23:22:00] <les> true.
[23:22:18] <Imperator_> thats the argument
[23:22:33] <pfred1> I knew a guy who could drive when he couldn't even stand up
[23:22:42] <pfred1> he said driving was easier he was sitting for it
[23:22:47] <les> Well I am doing the former but not the latter
[23:23:10] <Imperator_> ok, good night guys
[23:23:13] <pfred1> nite
[23:23:38] <Phydbleep> Drinking, Driving and IRC all at once? Talented. :)
[23:23:42] <SWPadnos> hey jmkasunich - got a question for you
[23:24:18] <pfred1> OK lets rip this DVD shall we?
[23:24:38] <SWPadnos> is there a documnet that talks about HAL from a software development standpoint?
[23:25:03] <pfred1> SWPadnos stay away from HAL it'll put you out an airlock! I saw the movie
[23:25:04] <SWPadnos> ie - developing HAL modules, not connecting them (as in the integrators document)
[23:25:17] <SWPadnos> no - it just won't let you back in :)
[23:25:27] <SWPadnos> (unless you're not Dave)
[23:25:31] <les> oh...this is just for pfred...
[23:25:34] <les> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/beer.shtml
[23:26:09] <pfred1> les it's true!
[23:26:35] <pfred1> who was it that said i never went to sleep with an ugly women but i sure woke up with a lot of them!
[23:26:44] <pfred1> was that WC Fields that said that?
[23:27:48] <les> heh
[23:27:53] <jmkasunich> SWP: shoot
[23:28:10] <jmkasunich> oh, you already did ;-)
[23:28:14] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich wasn't reading
[23:28:15] <SWPadnos> ie - developing HAL modules, not connecting them (as in the integrators document)
[23:28:17] <SWPadnos> is there a documnet that talks about HAL from a software development standpoint?
[23:28:22] <SWPadnos> (in yoda-speak :) )
[23:28:30] <SWPadnos> document, though
[23:28:32] <jmkasunich> not really a document
[23:28:58] <jmkasunich> you can look at the source of the existing modules and drivers
[23:29:06] <SWPadnos> well - something other than the source code?
[23:29:09] <jmkasunich> and I'd be happy to answer questions
[23:29:28] <jmkasunich> I'd like to do a programmers doc, but....
[23:29:38] <SWPadnos> I would want to read on an airplane, so navigating through source (with no internet access for reference material) would be a pain
[23:29:47] <jmkasunich> I see
[23:29:50] <SWPadnos> also not appropriate for printing
[23:30:11] <SWPadnos> (900 pages of non-syntax-hilighted text would make me want to scream)
[23:30:14] <pfred1> SWPadnos call AOL they can put the Internet onto a floppy disc for you
[23:30:17] <jmkasunich> print hal.h, and at least one component
[23:30:26] <jmkasunich> HAL is not 900 pages of anything
[23:30:31] <SWPadnos> Army Of Losers?
[23:30:43] <SWPadnos> all the source together may be that long
[23:30:45] <jmkasunich> hal.h plus one component is maybe 900 lines
[23:30:46] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: Or tarball the source and docs to go.
[23:31:12] <SWPadnos> I'll have a laptop, but there are restrictions on when they can be used, and the screen is much lower resolution than I'm used to
[23:31:26] <jmkasunich> yeah, I hate laptops
[23:31:29] <SWPadnos> (1400x1050, no scroll wheel unless I hook up an external mouse)
[23:32:23] <SWPadnos> I have the full emc source on the laptop already, so I can go that route if need be
[23:32:30] <jmkasunich> the closest thing to a deveolpers doc is hal.h
[23:32:56] <pfred1> OK time to watch a confusing movie here
[23:33:30] <jmkasunich> hal.h is 643 lines declaring 41 functions... there are a LOT of comments in there
[23:34:04] <SWPadnos> OK - I'm looking at it from the standpoint of optimization of the lowest levels (just above and in the driver)
[23:35:01] <jmkasunich> you mean optimizing the code of a driver?
[23:35:11] <jmkasunich> or optimizing the HAL library itself?
[23:35:50] <SWPadnos> sort of - I'm thinking about things like having several functions using a single physical port (defined as 8 HAL_BITs), and aggregating the output for speed (as an example - that may already be done)
[23:36:08] <jmkasunich> not sure I follow
[23:36:09] <SWPadnos> not sure, since I don't know where to look yet ;)
[23:36:40] <SWPadnos> well - it makes sense from a high level perspective that a step output function would use two digital outputs (step/dir, for this example)
[23:36:41] <jmkasunich> if you have an 8 bit output port, you should have a driver for that port that exports 8 hal bits, and at runtime reads those 8, packs them, and writes them to the HW
[23:37:39] <jmkasunich> the stepgen module exports two hal bits for its outputs, at runtime it sets/clears them as needed
[23:38:04] <SWPadnos> yes - but when you have a RT thread and a user thread using hal pins that are logically separate, but physically "connected", there can be issues
[23:38:10] <jmkasunich> at config time, you connect the stepgen module's outputs to 2 of the hardware driver's 8 hal pins
[23:38:12] <SWPadnos> (unles you just don't allow that)
[23:38:22] <jmkasunich> it's allowed
[23:38:33] <jmkasunich> one RT thread can set two hal pins
[23:38:42] <jmkasunich> another RT thread can set two others
[23:38:49] <jmkasunich> a user process can set 4 more
[23:39:06] <SWPadnos> That's the part of the code I want to look at
[23:39:08] <jmkasunich> and yet another RT thread can call the driver that packs them and writes to the output poty
[23:39:14] <jmkasunich> s/poty/port
[23:39:22] <SWPadnos> potty port == toilet :)
[23:39:45] <jmkasunich> ;-P
[23:39:53] <SWPadnos> is that stuff in hal_lib.c?
[23:40:14] <jmkasunich> nothing in hal_lib.c is used at runtime
[23:40:20] <SWPadnos> ok
[23:40:21] <jmkasunich> (realtime runtime ;-)
[23:40:27] <SWPadnos> realruntime
[23:40:53] <jmkasunich> for the realtime code in a driver or hal component, a pin is just a pointer
[23:41:11] <SWPadnos> I'm approaching this partly from the perspective of a person with a USC, who wants to use EMC2 on kernel 2.6.x
[23:41:11] <jmkasunich> to read the pin, the code just dereferences the pointer
[23:41:34] <SWPadnos> and the pointer points to a byte, which contains zero or nonzero, and gets packed into a bit by the driver?
[23:41:36] <jmkasunich> hal_lib.c and halcmd manipulate the pointer to make/break/change connections
[23:41:41] <jmkasunich> yes, exactly
[23:41:47] <SWPadnos> OK - that's too slow :)
[23:42:07] <SWPadnos> (remember - I think in microcontroller time frames)
[23:42:10] <jmkasunich> pretty damned fast these days
[23:42:36] <jmkasunich> (so do I, but we aren't programming on microcontrollers here)
[23:42:44] <SWPadnos> yeah - but for something like the step generators, you can use all the optimizing you can stand
[23:43:14] <SWPadnos> a modern CPU should be able to easily do 50-100k pulses / second, but can't for a number of reasons
[23:43:28] <SWPadnos> the more reasons you eliminate, the better off we are
[23:43:32] <jmkasunich> mostly related to interrupt latency and cache issues
[23:43:37] <SWPadnos> yep
[23:44:10] <jmkasunich> if you accept the premise that we are not gonna totally take over the CPU, then your step rate is limited to the max interrupt rate
[23:44:10] <SWPadnos> Since this is now Linux only (right?), it can be optimized a little there
[23:44:59] <jmkasunich> the stepgen and parport modules (the actual realtime code) is already optimized pretty well... not to the point of unreadability, but pretty good
[23:45:16] <SWPadnos> yes - max interrupt rate, plus max latency, plus some jitter gives you the worst case
[23:45:49] <jmkasunich> see read_port() and write_port() in src/hal/drivers/hal_parport.c
[23:46:48] <jmkasunich> if the port is on an ISA bus, I'm sure the pack/unpack loop takes less time than the inb() and outb() instructions
[23:47:11] <SWPadnos> yes - the in/out are roughly 1 microsecond each
[23:47:52] <SWPadnos> I'd like to see the assembly output from this code - do you think a make CC_OPTS=-s would work?
[23:47:59] <jmkasunich> perhaps
[23:48:02] <SWPadnos> (or whatever the C compiler options var is)
[23:48:28] <jmkasunich> you sound like me - I used to do assembly, and tweak, and count cycles, and all that fun stuff
[23:48:34] <asdfqwega> Has anyone tried to do a nonrealtime build of emc lately?
[23:48:37] <SWPadnos> heh - I can't help it
[23:48:54] <SWPadnos> only on BDI-4 installs
[23:49:12] <asdfqwega> I want to use Axis as a g-code preview on this machine, but I don't want to have to install a realtime kernel
[23:49:24] <jmkasunich> I think I'm gonna enjoy talking to you at fest ;-)
[23:49:39] <SWPadnos> I agree - it should be fun
[23:49:54] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega wishes he could be at the 'fest
[23:50:05] <jmkasunich> the stepgen realtime code is make_pulses() in src/hal/components/stepgen.c
[23:50:11] <SWPadnos> (OT: please bring panel switches and lights, if you have a bin of them :) )
[23:50:23] <SWPadnos> I looked at that - cool that it has 5-phase in it
[23:50:23] <jmkasunich> actually I think I do
[23:50:40] <jmkasunich> you have breakout boards or similar?
[23:50:41] <SWPadnos> cool - I'm still working out the cabinet design for my Bridgeport
[23:50:58] <jmkasunich> should I bring my soldering iron?
[23:51:01] <SWPadnos> I have a USC, I may design a breakout board for some other stuff
[23:51:09] <SWPadnos> I have a bunch (!) of DIN rail stuff as well
[23:51:15] <jmkasunich> oh, that's right,USC has breakout onboard
[23:51:41] <SWPadnos> I'm thinking about the brake/overvoltage dump circuits, control circuits, E-stop, computer /machine power interlock, etc.
[23:52:12] <SWPadnos> MPG and VFD as well
[23:52:28] <SWPadnos> (I'd love external manual control of the machine with a joystick pendant)
[23:52:33] <jmkasunich> you have an MPG already?
[23:52:42] <SWPadnos> Yep - would you like me to bring one?
[23:52:50] <jmkasunich> I'm bringing several
[23:53:07] <SWPadnos> crappy (actually, vey crappy photos) at http://www.cncgear.com/MPG/
[23:53:27] <jmkasunich> I have a little testbed - three nema23 steppers, a xylotex 3 channel stepper driver, 24v power supply, and one MPG
[23:53:35] <SWPadnos> (one day, I'll buy a real digital camera instead of modifying a disposable)
[23:54:01] <SWPadnos> Ah - well, this one has a serial port, so an EMC driver could be pretty easy :)
[23:54:04] <jmkasunich> huh... I thought a MPG was an encoder with a handwheel on it?
[23:54:19] <SWPadnos> This is the electronics, the box is optional ;)
[23:54:28] <jmkasunich> but where is the handwheel?
[23:54:44] <SWPadnos> This uses a Grayhill encoder knob - only 32 PPR
[23:54:47] <SWPadnos> but can use others
[23:55:21] <jmkasunich> ok, to me the MPG is the knob/encoder unit itself, not some electronics that connects to it
[23:55:27] <SWPadnos> yes - sorry.
[23:55:41] <jmkasunich> I run my MPG A and B phases right into the parport and use the HAL encoder module to count them
[23:55:50] <SWPadnos> this was designed partly for a customer who wanted an interim step between manual and full CNC
[23:56:18] <jmkasunich> it can count at 10KHz (probably 20KHz or more), and even tho my wheel is 400 counts/rev, I can't spin it fast enough to make 10KHz
[23:56:20] <SWPadnos> this actually converts a step/dir driver and motor into a power feed (start, stop, fwd/rev switches, and the wheel for setting the speed)
[23:56:39] <jmkasunich> I see
[23:56:50] <SWPadnos> but, it's only software
[23:57:01] <jmkasunich> I did something like that with HAL
[23:57:01] <SWPadnos> so it may also be a programmable indexer
[23:57:22] <jmkasunich> wheel A&B to parport, to encoder module
[23:57:32] <jmkasunich> encoder output to freqgen input
[23:57:41] <SWPadnos> (times something)
[23:57:44] <jmkasunich> freqgen makes step/dir, back to parport and out to stepper
[23:58:00] <jmkasunich> yes, encoder block has output scaling, and freqgen has input scaling
[23:58:14] <SWPadnos> I saw generic boolean blocks - I assume there are also math function blocks available?
[23:58:22] <jmkasunich> (my goal is that HAL signals use engineering units, so everything is scaled as close to the HW as possible)
[23:58:47] <jmkasunich> not written yet, but trivial to implmenet, and definitely on the list
[23:58:58] <SWPadnos> Yes, and the INI and display just go through a "unit converter" block
[23:59:55] <SWPadnos> Actually, I was thinking that the internal data should just be one system - like microns