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[00:05:41] <Jacky^> hey
[00:05:48] <Jacky^> http://cgi.ebay.it/C18137-Pacific-Scientific-R33GENC-Brushless-Servomotor_W0QQitemZ7536096827QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[00:06:05] <Jacky^> could this be a good motor ?
[00:07:24] <alex_joni> nice, but a bit old
[00:09:35] <robin_sz> look ok
[00:09:45] <robin_sz> but you need a drive ...
[00:10:07] <Jacky^> anyway, they seem do not accept payments from outside us and canada :\
[00:10:56] <Jacky^> robin_sz: i know, the controller should be expensive..
[00:11:36] <A_Guy> aaarrrggg... disconected
[00:11:49] <A_Guy> any one here seen any nice servo controlers?
[00:17:47] <A_Guy> A_Guy is now known as Yuga
[00:21:22] <robin_sz> wow ...
[00:21:28] <robin_sz> http://www.irf.com/product-info/auto/autohbridge.html
[00:21:30] <Yuga> wow >>>
[00:21:33] <robin_sz> now .. thats neat#
[00:23:16] <alex_joni> robin_sz: I started building a H-bridge using an IR2111
[00:23:21] <alex_joni> to drive n-ch fets
[00:23:27] <alex_joni> but gave it up.. it worked like shit
[00:26:13] <robin_sz> board layout is crucial
[00:28:09] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_stg.c: added code for D I/O. right now about all code is there (still some encoder indexing not done). and further testing is needed.
[00:28:26] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to sleep
[00:28:31] <alex_joni> night guys
[00:33:50] <wb9mjn> Bye all...
[00:41:38] <Jymmm> ewwww, only 80W
[00:42:20] <anonimasu> 80w?
[00:42:31] <Jymmm> http://www.irf.com/product-info/auto/autohbridge.html
[00:42:56] <anonimasu> ah ok..
[00:43:01] <Jymmm> this only nice thing is the protection
[00:43:07] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is tired
[00:43:10] <anonimasu> bloody NT Server.
[00:43:13] <Jymmm> lol
[00:43:21] <Jymmm> whats wrong now?
[00:43:24] <anonimasu> updating takes longer then setting up the domain..
[00:43:34] <Jymmm> updating what?
[00:43:38] <anonimasu> everything
[00:43:39] <anonimasu> :D
[00:43:47] <Jymmm> bullshit... what specifically
[00:44:13] <Jymmm> * Jymmm suspects anonimasu is updating a LIVE server too!
[00:44:14] <anonimasu> hotfx + security update + service packs
[00:44:37] <anonimasu> ofcourse..
[00:44:37] <anonimasu> :D
[00:44:41] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[00:44:42] <Red70sShow> -----> anonimasu <----- DUMBASS
[00:44:42] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[00:45:02] <Jymmm> you NEVER EVER update alive server without fully testing it.
[00:45:18] <Jymmm> on another box
[00:45:27] <Jymmm> bad bad voodoo
[00:45:41] <Jymmm> Just wait till monday morning
[00:45:42] <Yuga> * Yuga slaps anonimasu around a bit with a large trout
[00:45:52] <anonimasu> the server will be live tomorrow.
[00:45:57] <anonimasu> ,)
[00:46:03] <Jymmm> you'll be dead by noon
[00:46:09] <anonimasu> heh
[00:46:12] <anonimasu> no I wont
[00:46:37] <Jymmm> uh huh
[00:46:47] <Jymmm> This IS M$ we are talking about.
[00:46:52] <anonimasu> Jymmm: by noon tomorrow I'll be playing with the USC
[00:47:11] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I've already tested the software that has to run..
[00:47:22] <Jymmm> anonimasu you are so full fo shit... you should have been playing with USC 3 days ago
[00:47:37] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I know...
[00:47:43] <Jymmm> anonimasu forget the software it's the users
[00:47:50] <Jymmm> it's always the users
[00:47:58] <anonimasu> Jymmm: : they are well taught..
[00:48:18] <anonimasu> Jymmm: they care for the administrative program and the printer.
[00:48:22] <Jymmm> well taught to call you or your boss when thigns dont work
[00:49:35] <anonimasu> Jymmm: small place :)
[00:49:51] <Jymmm> this is why you have BDC's... so when/if soemthing fucks up on the PDC, you're still covered.
[00:50:22] <anonimasu> Jymmm: this stuff is _critical_ but not that critical. in the worst case I could run it at a workstation
[00:50:28] <Jymmm> and you dont update both machiens the same week either =)
[00:50:58] <Jymmm> well, luckily enough you have an alternative available
[00:51:02] <Jymmm> in case
[00:51:12] <anonimasu> heh
[00:51:26] <Jymmm> try that with 12,000 n. america users
[00:51:37] <Jymmm> and you'll think differently
[00:52:15] <anonimasu> yes, but I dont.
[00:52:37] <anonimasu> the only thing that matters is the raid array..
[00:52:51] <anonimasu> and the tape backup.
[00:52:58] <Jymmm> Ha!
[00:53:07] <anonimasu> seriously..
[00:53:17] <Jymmm> when was the last time to fully RESTORED from tape?
[00:54:06] <anonimasu> hm, � a year ago hwen 3 disks in the array died at the same time..
[00:54:15] <anonimasu> or well longer ago
[00:54:25] <anonimasu> cant remember
[00:54:47] <Jymmm> anonimasu was that JSUT data or the system and data?
[00:54:54] <Jymmm> and was a DB involved?
[00:55:14] <anonimasu> just the data.. & some db
[00:55:36] <anonimasu> "Pervasive SQL"
[00:55:41] <Jymmm> anonimasu See, I've learned that 'ghost is my friend' =)
[00:56:03] <anonimasu> but backing up the data directory... copies everything about the db
[00:56:04] <Jymmm> 2) never trust that tapes will restore like they are suppose to.
[00:56:21] <Jymmm> anonimasu Right, but restoring the db is another matter.
[00:57:23] <anonimasu> Jymmm: that is restoring it..
[00:57:55] <JymmmEMC> Not if the system hdd failed, ten you have to deal with db, db perms, etc
[00:58:12] <anonimasu> Jymmm: no. the params are inside of there..
[00:58:33] <JymmmEMC> lucky you, MSSQL is a mother fucker in that respect
[00:58:40] <anonimasu> yeah
[00:58:48] <anonimasu> copying the data dir gives * about the db..
[00:59:08] <JymmmEMC> I was the SMS Admin for North America at Nortel Networks
[00:59:16] <anonimasu> no setup at all...
[00:59:50] <anonimasu> the reason there's no bdc is because there's too few users to justify another server licenes..
[01:00:18] <Jymmm> how many?
[01:00:33] <anonimasu> 10
[01:00:39] <Jymmm> yeah, ok.
[01:00:42] <anonimasu> + 2 remote offices
[01:00:55] <Jymmm> wait... how many in the remotes?
[01:01:07] <anonimasu> one computer at each place...
[01:01:13] <anonimasu> they are not connected to the domain..
[01:01:27] <anonimasu> they run vpn + terminal service..
[01:02:12] <anonimasu> since the db queries takes forever.. unless we would invest in direct connections there or very fast connections..
[01:02:20] <Jymmm> well, since you're running TermSvc, I can understand the lack of a BDC
[01:02:21] <anonimasu> to the net..
[01:02:45] <Jymmm> but you get 20 in there, you should get another one.
[01:03:05] <anonimasu> we would have to expand lots..
[01:03:18] <anonimasu> :)
[01:03:19] <Jymmm> you said queries were already slow as it is
[01:03:31] <anonimasu> it's a network issue
[01:03:38] <anonimasu> you cant send the data over internet/vpn
[01:03:52] <anonimasu> hence terminal services..
[01:03:53] <anonimasu> :)
[01:04:17] <anonimasu> image's stream faster then larger amounts of data..
[01:10:12] <anonimasu> ^*yawns*
[01:10:17] <anonimasu> oh well, fsckit
[01:10:24] <anonimasu> been making any progress on the router?
[01:11:11] <JymmmEMC> the dumbasses are waiting for rails to arrive in
[01:11:32] <anonimasu> :/
[01:11:38] <JymmmEMC> tell me about it
[01:12:06] <anonimasu> I hope I'll be able to tell you if the USC is a worthwhile purchase later :)
[01:12:21] <anonimasu> I haev the feeling it will change my machine..
[01:12:22] <Jymmm> later this year?
[01:12:30] <anonimasu> later this week
[01:12:33] <Jymmm> you running steppers or servos?
[01:12:37] <anonimasu> servos..
[01:12:47] <anonimasu> and g340's..
[01:13:10] <anonimasu> 2 servos & the one stepper
[01:13:10] <Jymmm> Hmmmm, not sure if that'll help I ahve steppers right now, but the rest should be good other than the fact you're running emc2
[01:13:25] <Yuga> whats the difference between a open and closed controller?
[01:13:27] <anonimasu> I cant run emc2 with the usc yet
[01:13:39] <anonimasu> closed loop?
[01:13:45] <Jymmm> you going to test it with emc1?
[01:13:48] <anonimasu> yeah
[01:13:57] <anonimasu> I dont have time to write drivers..
[01:13:58] <anonimasu> yet
[01:13:59] <Jymmm> Yuga encoders (iirc)
[01:14:10] <anonimasu> heh
[01:14:19] <Jymmm> anonimasu ok, cool. try it on bdi live for me =)
[01:14:30] <anonimasu> heh.. bdi live is the same as emc1 :)
[01:14:37] <anonimasu> should work just fine
[01:14:43] <Jymmm> anonimasu right, but w/o all your fucksups =)
[01:14:58] <anonimasu> actually I am running BDI
[01:15:00] <Jymmm> no tweeking allowed young lady!
[01:15:10] <anonimasu> somewheree :)
[01:15:26] <anonimasu> but I had to downgrade to be able to compile stuff
[01:16:57] <Jymmm> ah ok
[01:20:01] <Jacky^> bah..
[01:20:12] <Jacky^> my mail box won't work
[01:21:06] <Jymmm> kick it
[01:21:06] <Jacky^> cant check mail using a client :\
[01:21:15] <Jacky^> umpf..
[01:21:40] <Jacky^> the old provider changed something..
[01:21:59] <Jacky^> cant use a client to recive mails
[01:22:12] <Jacky^> it work only from web browser
[01:23:44] <Jacky^> Jymmm: any idea where can get a free account with no issue ?
[01:24:09] <JymmmEMC> Jacky^: try gaysex.orgy
[01:24:17] <Jacky^> puahh
[01:24:37] <Jacky^> nah.. come on
[01:25:56] <Jacky^> http://www.linuxwaves.com/FREE_Email/
[01:26:04] <Jacky^> how is ?
[01:27:36] <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: are you sure that URL is right?
[01:27:52] <JymmmEMC> what do you think?
[01:28:10] <robin_sz> ummm, google says not ...
[01:28:31] <robin_sz> but this one works ... jymm.isgay.com
[01:29:09] <Jacky^> hey robin_sz
[01:29:18] <robin_sz> ;)
[01:29:21] <Jacky^> any idea where to create a new mail account ?
[01:29:35] <robin_sz> hotmail?
[01:29:40] <Jacky^> ghghghg
[01:29:45] <Jacky^> rotfl
[01:29:48] <robin_sz> opermail.com?
[01:29:58] <robin_sz> operamail.com
[01:30:11] <robin_sz> (run by the opera browser guys)
[01:30:33] <Jacky^> but
[01:30:52] <Jacky^> can i receive the mails in my local client ?
[01:31:06] <robin_sz> no idea
[01:31:25] <Jacky^> that's the prob i now have :(
[01:31:54] <robin_sz> you could have one on my macine if I can think of a spare domain
[01:32:22] <robin_sz> [email protected]?
[01:32:27] <Jacky^> sometimes i change place, from south italy to naples
[01:32:44] <Jacky^> so.. i can't use my actual provider
[01:33:06] <Jacky^> i want to be free with mails
[01:34:02] <Jacky^> instead, my pop let the user download mail only if they are connected by same isp
[01:34:50] <Jacky^> that crap :(
[01:35:57] <robin_sz> yeah yeah ..
[01:36:15] <robin_sz> so do you want
[email protected] or not?
[01:37:00] <Jacky^> yeah, if is possible, sure
[01:37:15] <robin_sz> sure ...
[01:37:15] <Jacky^> what should i do ?
[01:37:27] <robin_sz> for pop?
[01:37:36] <Jacky^> to get the account
[01:37:51] <robin_sz> I just set it for you
[01:38:04] <Jacky^> ah.. ok , thanks :)
[01:38:20] <robin_sz> pop host wiki.linuxcnc.org
[01:38:29] <Jacky^> ok
[01:38:36] <robin_sz> user
[email protected]
[01:38:48] <Jacky^> yeah
[01:38:50] <robin_sz> pass: ..
[01:38:55] <robin_sz> oh, /msg huh?
[01:39:02] <Jacky^> ok :)
[01:39:57] <robin_sz> Jacky^: we use pop before smtp .. so if you want to use that host for sending, pop authenticate first. it lasts one hour
[01:40:16] <robin_sz> if you want to use web client, we have that too ;)
[01:40:19] <Jacky^> robin_sz: no, i've no problem for send mails
[01:40:23] <robin_sz> ok
[01:40:40] <robin_sz> web client is at wiki.linuxcnc.org/sqwebmail
[01:40:47] <Jacky^> ok
[01:40:58] <Jacky^> thanks
[01:41:12] <robin_sz> no problem .. let me know if it does/doestn work :)
[01:41:48] <robin_sz> remember ... user
[email protected] ... not just jacky ok?
[01:42:01] <Jacky^> okay :)
[01:42:31] <robin_sz> vous avez decouverez les canards?
[01:43:01] <robin_sz> oops
[01:43:41] <robin_sz> now I must go
[01:43:51] <Jacky^> night robin_sz
[01:43:56] <anonimasu> .. unless we would invest in direct connections there or very fast
[01:43:56] <anonimasu> connections..
[01:44:05] <anonimasu> whoops..
[01:44:11] <Yuga> whats the difference between a open and closed controller?
[01:44:20] <Jymmm> you're in .ro you dont need nothing more than pp
[01:44:29] <anonimasu> Yuga: open and closed?
[01:44:33] <anonimasu> what do you mean
[01:44:36] <anonimasu> open loop or closed loop?
[01:44:40] <Yuga> ya
[01:44:42] <Yuga> that
[01:44:50] <Yuga> whats the difference
[01:45:04] <anonimasu> closed loop controllers feeds encoder data to the pc..
[01:45:10] <anonimasu> hence closing the loop..
[01:45:24] <anonimasu> whereas open loop controllers have no feedback to the pc
[01:45:29] <Yuga> open loop dont feed back to the pc
[01:45:43] <Yuga> so closed loop = good.... open loop = bad
[01:45:55] <anonimasu> not really
[01:46:08] <anonimasu> closed loop is better open loop works
[01:47:19] <Jacky^> Yuga: what you choosed at the end
[01:47:25] <Jacky^> stepper or servos ?
[01:47:38] <Yuga> still not a clue
[01:47:46] <Jacky^> not yet ?
[01:47:51] <Yuga> nopes
[01:47:54] <Jacky^> :)
[01:47:57] <Yuga> keep changing my mind
[01:48:00] <anonimasu> steppers are usually open loop..
[01:48:03] <Yuga> it's kinda a bad habit
[01:48:20] <anonimasu> stepper systems
[01:49:01] <Yuga> how about u ppl choose one and donate me a system?
[01:49:02] <Jacky^> I think the advantage of steppers it's simple to drive
[01:49:15] <anonimasu> simple?
[01:49:22] <anonimasu> a servo is just a normal dc motor..
[01:49:24] <anonimasu> :)
[01:49:25] <Jacky^> yeah
[01:49:34] <Jacky^> I mean as controller drive
[01:49:52] <Yuga> but aparently sevo is more costy
[01:49:53] <anonimasu> you mean PID and stuff right?
[01:49:54] <Yuga> aaarrrggg
[01:50:10] <Jacky^> controller for a stepper can be build with few $$
[01:50:10] <anonimasu> I'll be back in a bit.. going to leave for home soon
[01:50:16] <anonimasu> :)
[01:50:49] <Yuga> was going to just buy those gecko drives
[01:50:57] <Jacky^> Yuga: servo is more expensive and more complicated :(
[01:51:12] <Jacky^> i've no doubt now
[01:51:29] <Jacky^> but performance will be better
[01:51:30] <Yuga> :<
[01:51:45] <Jacky^> especially in a big machine..
[01:52:01] <anonimasu> well, I can tell you I've never regretted going with servos.
[01:52:22] <Yuga> what servo's and controler u got?
[01:52:26] <anonimasu> the only dumb thing I did was not to inertia match my machine with my motors..
[01:52:32] <anonimasu> geckodrive g340's
[01:52:40] <anonimasu> and galil servos..
[01:52:50] <anonimasu> cant remember the number of it
[01:52:52] <Jacky^> anonimasu: i believe you
[01:53:04] <anonimasu> I didnt know enough about inertia matching/maching building back then
[01:53:07] <Yuga> which galil servos?
[01:53:11] <Jacky^> i'm tracking some offer for servos on ebay
[01:53:15] <Jacky^> let see..
[01:53:23] <anonimasu> you need to calc what you need to move.
[01:53:29] <anonimasu> dont just buy servos.. :)
[01:53:32] <anonimasu> check up on it first
[01:53:54] <Yuga> dont know what i have to move yet :)
[01:54:13] <anonimasu> well hold off a bit :)
[01:54:46] <Yuga> all i have been doing is holding off
[01:54:47] <anonimasu> build the iron first :)
[01:54:51] <Yuga> and its getting anoying
[01:55:16] <anonimasu> the problem is that you have no idea if you are moving 10kg or 1000kg
[01:55:40] <Yuga> well it wont be 500kg's like les's
[01:55:43] <Jacky^> i say 1000
[01:55:46] <Jacky^> :D
[01:55:57] <anonimasu> so you really cant buy motors.
[01:56:12] <anonimasu> unless you build the machine after the motors..
[01:56:17] <anonimasu> but it's better the other way around
[01:56:34] <anonimasu> since you want to inertia match the machine/gantry with the smotor..
[01:56:42] <Ron_B> I think you can build for a size of power
[01:57:06] <Ron_B> and - this ain't an "exact" science
[01:57:23] <anonimasu> Ron_B: actually it is :)
[01:57:37] <anonimasu> you should query les about it when he's online
[01:57:57] <Ron_B> even small commercial machines offfer a small router or two 5HP spindles... with the same drive motors
[01:57:57] <anonimasu> * anonimasu does regret not calculating properly
[01:58:20] <Ron_B> lot of difference in Inerta ... and it still works
[01:58:32] <Ron_B> but - one chould calculate
[01:58:41] <Ron_B> should
[01:58:43] <anonimasu> Ron_B: if it dosent matter you can use normal dc motors and just add encoders.
[01:59:06] <anonimasu> then you have no need to buy expensive motors..
[01:59:36] <anonimasu> :)
[02:00:03] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is just trying to be helpful
[02:00:09] <anonimasu> the bettre you olan the better the end result
[02:00:29] <Jacky^> my cousins has constructed one machine with motors dc and
[02:00:30] <Jacky^> encoder
[02:00:58] <Jacky^> but for rough jobs
[02:01:25] <anonimasu> the reason I speak about inertia matching is because the faster you run the more it matters :)
[02:01:53] <Jacky^> to mill steel plate of 5 cm thickness
[02:02:09] <Ron_B> It indeed dows - but - if you get close - then it can be tuned
[02:02:48] <anonimasu> brb, going home
[02:10:13] <Jymmm> hey chris
[02:11:39] <Jacky^> night all
[02:44:37] <anonimasu> :)
[02:46:03] <anonimasu> finally back home
[02:46:57] <JymmmEMC> is the USC running yet?
[02:50:17] <anonimasu> heh
[02:50:20] <anonimasu> no
[02:50:22] <anonimasu> I am a bit tired
[02:50:51] <Jymmm> sleep when your dead... now get your scrawny ass out there and get that shit hooked up already!
[02:52:53] <anonimasu> night :)
[02:53:00] <Jymmm> you bastard! lol
[02:53:11] <Jymmm> G'Night anonimasu
[03:51:37] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[03:52:04] <Jymmm> cradek yo bitch
[03:52:11] <cradek> ?
[03:52:26] <Jymmm> I said 'hi' earlier then you immediately left
[03:52:51] <cradek> cradek [
[email protected]] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[03:53:48] <cradek> looks like it wasn't my fault, and the namecalling isn't necessary
[03:58:12] <Jymmm> is too!
[03:58:16] <Jymmm> =)
[03:58:45] <Jymmm> cradek no biggy, this IS irc afterall =)
[03:59:14] <Jymmm> cradek so, how ya doin?
[03:59:47] <cradek> pretty good, but I want a couple more days of weekend
[03:59:55] <Jymmm> dont we all =)
[04:00:13] <Jymmm> its like when you take a vacation, you need a vacation from the vacation
[04:00:53] <cradek> and I need one more durn IO pin on my avr
[04:01:10] <Jymmm> 16 not enough?
[04:01:14] <Jymmm> brb.... reboot
[04:01:27] <cradek> 32 not enough
[04:01:35] <cradek> to my great dismay, I need 33
[04:02:26] <cradek> maybe I can figure out how to do two things with one pin
[04:02:55] <JymmmEMC> I'm back
[04:03:16] <JymmmEMC> would have been back sooner if it wasn't for the net probing me!
[04:03:33] <JymmmEMC> what avr are you using
[04:03:40] <cradek> mega32
[04:04:00] <JymmmEMC> doesnt that have 32 IO
[04:04:01] <JymmmEMC> ?
[04:04:11] <cradek> yes, but to my great dismay, I need 33
[04:04:22] <JymmmEMC> lol, what you doin with it?
[04:04:56] <cradek> it's ram + rom + uart for a 6800 machine I'm building
[04:05:27] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[04:05:30] <cradek> ram + rom + uart + clock generator + front panel controller
[04:05:48] <Jymmm> you gonna bitflip to program it?
[04:05:49] <cradek> 16 address and 8 data lines take up a lot of IO ports.
[04:06:00] <cradek> yeah the machine has a real front panel (already done)
[04:06:17] <Jymmm> cool. Can't use use some multiplexor?
[04:06:22] <Jymmm> 3OF8
[04:06:44] <cradek> yeah, I'll have to figure out how to do two things with one pin.
[04:06:53] <cradek> or, offload clock generation and front panel control into another chip.
[04:07:31] <cradek> I was hoping to use the 6800 and avr, and that's all
[04:08:22] <Jymmm> couldnt' you datashift the data lines?
[04:09:03] <cradek> you mean use a shift register? They're bidirectional!
[04:09:15] <Jymmm> ah, nm
[04:09:22] <cradek> besides, there's not nearly enough time, even with the 6800 running at just 500KHz
[04:09:37] <Jymmm> how are you programming the AVR? C?
[04:09:40] <cradek> avr is only 16MHz and the systen clock is two phase
[04:10:09] <cradek> to get it to work, I'm using C, but I may rewrite it in asm to free up all of the avr's ram for use by the 6800
[04:10:35] <cradek> should be able to run entirely out of registers, especially if I don't use subroutines
[04:10:55] <Jymmm> I have a STK300, but I was PLANNING on using basic, but that was years ago and it's just collectin dust =(
[04:11:09] <cradek> I don't know what that is
[04:11:26] <Jymmm> STK300 is an Atmel development board
[04:11:35] <Jymmm> the newest I think is STK500
[04:11:42] <cradek> I can't fathom why anyone would pick basic over C
[04:11:56] <Jymmm> I dont' know C well enough =)
[04:12:17] <cradek> well you can't learn basic either - it's different everywhere you look
[04:12:20] <Jymmm> It's been a LONG time since I've touched C/pascal
[04:12:43] <cradek> basic means "our own damn language we just made up"
[04:13:15] <Jymmm> BASIC isnt' that hard to pick up, even variants. I programmed my BasicStamp easily enough
[04:13:42] <cradek> neither is C, and you don't have to worry (much) about variants
[04:14:20] <Jymmm> Is that an offer to tech me to program a AVR? =)
[04:14:23] <Jymmm> teach
[04:15:08] <cradek> int main(void) { DDRA = PORTA = 1; }
[04:15:14] <Jymmm> would you use a AVR over a PIC these days?
[04:15:21] <cradek> oh definitely
[04:15:29] <Jymmm> they seem cheaper too
[04:15:41] <cradek> gcc doesn't support PIC and the PIC is an odd little creature
[04:16:11] <cradek> I've programmed PICs in asm, and it's ok, but much more tedious than C
[04:16:47] <Jymmm> Heh, the only asm I know is debug under dos, and that's just to look at the com port adddresses =)
[04:17:00] <cradek> you can program an AVR in-circuit using just a cable hooked to the parallel port
[04:17:16] <cradek> all the software is free
[04:17:25] <cradek> all the hardware (a DB25 and some wire) comes from your junk drawer
[04:17:45] <Jymmm> Well, I have the dev baord as well as a SIP too
[04:18:31] <cradek> sounds like you need to write "hello world" then (flash an LED or something)
[04:18:34] <Jymmm> for someone like me, the dev board makes things easier to learn
[04:18:42] <Jymmm> Exactly
[04:18:59] <Jymmm> I have soem serialbackpack LCD's too
[04:19:11] <Jymmm> 2x16
[04:19:18] <cradek> they have a UART built in, but it's ttl level of course
[04:19:34] <cradek> you can run a parallel LCD just as easily, and they're much cheaper
[04:19:54] <Jymmm> these were free when I worked ad okidata =)
[04:20:19] <cradek> are they ttl or rs232 serial?
[04:20:24] <Jymmm> serial
[04:20:39] <Jymmm> I'm dont recall which, I'd have to check
[04:20:49] <cradek> some fancy ones are switchable (jumper)
[04:21:10] <Jymmm> ah, well I was running this off a 9V battery, so I'll says 232
[04:21:27] <cradek> rs232 from a uC is a little hard (need an external chip like max232)
[04:21:39] <cradek> better to get a parallel ttl level lcd
[04:21:49] <cradek> or serial ttl of course
[04:22:15] <Jymmm> I didn't use a max232, so maybe it was ttl, liek I said it's been a while
[04:23:06] <Jymmm> when I was drivign a 5x7 maxtrix LED I used 12vdc, but that was a different project and sucked the current like crazy
[04:23:33] <cradek> LEDs take a lot more current, but are infinitely nicer to look at
[04:23:55] <cradek> VFDs are better still
[04:23:59] <cradek> nixies are better still
[04:24:06] <Jymmm> I made a scrolling LED sign with a single matrix, looks very nice, but eht edriver chip is expensive
[04:24:23] <Jymmm> $8/ea
[04:24:28] <cradek> it's easy to run all that stuff yourself with the avr
[04:24:36] <cradek> don't need fancy driver chips
[04:24:50] <cradek> the output ports can drive LEDs directly, no driver transistor!
[04:25:15] <Jymmm> but lots of ram for the ascii table
[04:25:45] <cradek> even a very small avr (at90s2313) has 2k of rom
[04:25:54] <Jymmm> max7221
[04:25:56] <cradek> ascii table doesn't have to be in ram, of course
[04:26:29] <Jymmm> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1339/ln/en
[04:27:20] <Jymmm> has dimmer and can be cascaded as needed
[04:27:29] <cradek> looks like I drove 5x7 with 0-9, a-z, A-Z in less than 2k
[04:28:14] <cradek> I made a clock that displays 22:29:00 Sun 08/07/05 on 5x7 displays
[04:28:38] <cradek> makes a very attractive display
[04:29:20] <cradek> that's with the avr scanning the LEDs itself, no driver chip
[04:29:44] <Jymmm> how much is the avr?
[04:29:50] <Jymmm> that you used
[04:29:59] <cradek> $1 (I bought dozens on ebay)
[04:30:17] <Jymmm> ah, ok. yeah that's cheap and you can cascade them
[04:31:01] <cradek> looks like they are $3.90 in qty 1 at mouser
[04:31:24] <cradek> $5 if you want DIP
[04:32:31] <Jymmm> DIP would be easier for me, no SMT tools or boards here
[04:32:39] <cradek> all those MAX chips are simply preprogrammed microcontrollers
[04:33:23] <cradek> well maybe not - it has some kind of constant-current driver
[04:34:01] <Jymmm> I have like 4 of them, I lived 2 miles form Maxim's HQ
[04:34:26] <cradek> uh, 9.53k resistor?
[04:34:34] <cradek> sure, I have some of those right here
[04:34:40] <Jymmm> and I live 6 miles from Atmel's HQ
[04:34:42] <Jymmm> lol
[04:37:01] <Jymmm> 90s8515 is that old?
[04:37:46] <cradek> not sure
[04:37:54] <cradek> some of those 90sxxxx have been discontinued
[04:37:57] <cradek> replaced by the megas
[04:38:05] <Jymmm> oh, heh...
[04:38:11] <cradek> see avrfreaks.net
[04:38:42] <Jymmm> what do you do/use when you need more space?
[04:39:02] <cradek> I use the 90s2313 when possible (2k) because I have lots of them
[04:39:15] <Jymmm> I have a few on those too
[04:39:18] <cradek> I use mega8 (8k) if I need mroe space but a small dip
[04:39:30] <cradek> I use mega16 or mega32 if I want lots of IO pins (dip-40)
[04:39:53] <cradek> there are some 8 pin devices too but I rarely have use for so few IO pins
[04:40:08] <Jymmm> you ever use the built in CLK ?
[04:40:31] <cradek> I usually need precise timekeeping or serial, which require external crystal
[04:42:58] <Jymmm> You know what I would LOVE to build.... a WWVB clock with RS232 output
[04:43:20] <cradek> I have built several WWVB clocks
[04:43:36] <Jymmm> radio Rx ?
[04:43:42] <cradek> some with avr, some with F8
[04:43:55] <cradek> yeah, the radio signal
[04:44:20] <Jymmm> I'd like to have/build one like this
http://www.schaffrath.net/mac.html
[04:44:29] <cradek> it is quite a challenge, hardware and software both
[04:44:59] <Jymmm> why (for each)?
[04:45:09] <cradek> my favorite clock is ten nixies that display HH MM SS MM DD and it's set by WWVB
[04:45:22] <cradek> controlled by one F8 microcontroller (talk about a challenge to program!!)
[04:45:34] <cradek> well first you have to come up with a radio receiver
[04:45:55] <cradek> then, you have to decode the signal, which is not as easy as it first seems
[04:46:14] <Jymmm> it's FSK isnt't it?
[04:46:24] <cradek> I made this clock on '01 and it's been running constantly so far
[04:46:28] <cradek> in '01
[04:46:32] <Jymmm> pic?
[04:46:38] <cradek> it even gets leap year right
[04:46:53] <cradek> (I didn't have a way to test that until '04)
[04:47:00] <Jymmm> lol
[04:47:05] <cradek> ummmmm looking for pic
[04:47:16] <Jymmm> does it maintain the time when no signal is received?
[04:47:34] <cradek> yes, but only until the end of the day
[04:47:39] <Jymmm> heh
[04:47:41] <cradek> it sets itself at 2am every day
[04:47:50] <cradek> I have a very strong signal here (Nebraska)
[04:47:58] <cradek> can easily receive it all day
[04:48:07] <Jymmm> Ah, I pick up HI a lil better
[04:48:14] <Jymmm> but after dusk
[04:48:27] <Jymmm> calif
[04:49:04] <cradek> my later, more advanced clocks, read the signal constantly and stay synghronized as closely as possible
[04:49:17] <cradek> if the signal goes away, they free-run unti lit comes back
[04:49:33] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[04:50:42] <Jymmm> I have a oregon scientific LCD, but I like the LED clock
[04:51:17] <cradek> pretty much all my clocks are homemade
[04:51:23] <cradek> nixie, led, crt, etc
[04:52:11] <Jymmm> cna you switch freq?
[04:52:51] <cradek> ?
[04:53:02] <Jymmm> 5,10,15,20 MHz
[04:53:17] <cradek> you just use the crystal you want
[04:53:29] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/clocks
[04:53:53] <Jymmm> oh so the one(s) you built are set freq? no playing with the 5,10,20 harmonics?
[04:54:13] <cradek> oh, I didn't understand your question
[04:54:20] <cradek> WWVB is only at one frequency (60KHz)
[04:54:29] <cradek> you're confusing it with WWV
[04:54:43] <Jymmm> ah, heh
[04:55:26] <Jymmm> where do you find a 2" crt?!
[04:55:30] <Jymmm> did
[04:55:43] <cradek> I don't remember, but I have several of them
[04:55:48] <cradek> added more files
[04:55:59] <cradek> time-and-date-wwvb is the one I was talking about
[04:56:29] <cradek> you can see the vintage F8 microcontroller with its piggyback program EPROM
[04:56:31] <Jymmm> wow, lots of noxies tubes
[04:56:51] <Jymmm> very nice
[04:56:55] <cradek> I think nixies are the easiest to read numeric displays ever made
[04:57:12] <Jymmm> how much heat do they put out?
[04:57:18] <cradek> none, cold cathode
[04:57:34] <cradek> they are just a fancy neon bulb
[04:57:39] <Jymmm> Oh really... I didn't realize that
[04:57:49] <Jymmm> I thought they were like tubes
[04:57:54] <cradek> nope
[04:58:00] <cradek> the crt clock generates a lot of heat of course
[04:58:15] <Jymmm> heh, I bet
[04:58:19] <cradek> it is a crt tube driven by three dual triodes used for the amplifiers
[04:58:45] <cradek> in case you didn't notice, it's a vector display
[04:59:16] <cradek> it has a lot of analog circuitry to draw the numbers with the beam
[04:59:18] <Jymmm> the crt ?
[04:59:29] <cradek> yeah
[04:59:55] <Jymmm> very cool
[05:00:03] <cradek> it is not wwvb - it's complicated enough as-is
[05:00:10] <Jymmm> lol
[05:00:29] <cradek> the one-tube clock fades the numbers in and out
[05:00:42] <Jymmm> Well, I think if I just got the LED clk going, I'd be happy =)
[05:00:55] <cradek> for 23:01 it displays 2 3 0 1 [pause] 2 3 0 1
[05:01:14] <cradek> often, people don't understand at first glance that it's a clock
[05:01:21] <Jymmm> ok, like my 5x7
[05:01:41] <cradek> that one was done in asm on a PIC
[05:01:56] <cradek> I don't use PICs (or F8s) anymore
[05:02:21] <Jymmm> lol, I beat.
[05:02:24] <Jymmm> bet
[05:02:28] <cradek> the small size made it really challenging
[05:02:39] <cradek> most of the circuitry is inside the socket!
[05:03:03] <Jymmm> a 1.5" round pcb?
[05:03:20] <cradek> nixies run on 170-300V so interfacing them to a microcontroller is interesting
[05:03:27] <Jymmm> lol
[05:03:48] <Jymmm> come one now.... you just use a 300V uC =)
[05:03:53] <Jymmm> brb... smoke
[05:03:57] <cradek> the one-tube clock uses a doubler on the power line to run the nixie (~ 340V)
[05:04:10] <cradek> nasty habit
[05:11:36] <Jymmm> well, I can think or worse habbits
[05:12:10] <Jymmm> what the current requirements on the noxie at that voltage?
[05:12:15] <Jymmm> nixie
[05:14:08] <cradek> a couple mA I think
[05:14:24] <Jymmm> Hmmm, you could use a EL inverter for that then
[05:14:31] <Jymmm> very small pkg
[05:15:28] <cradek> a couple mA *per tube*
[05:15:42] <cradek> a clock usually will have 6 tubes
[05:15:57] <Jymmm> so lets say 60mA?
[05:16:24] <cradek> % units 170volts*12mA W
[05:16:52] <cradek> * 2.04
[05:16:54] <Jymmm> ah, heh
[05:17:19] <cradek> requires quite a bit of power
[05:17:35] <Jymmm> yeah.
[05:18:45] <cradek> updated
http://timeguy.com/cradek/clocks
[05:19:37] <Jymmm> nice. what CMS are you using?
[05:19:48] <cradek> CMS?
[05:20:01] <Jymmm> I see "edit" in the lower right corners
[05:20:20] <cradek> click the ae
[05:20:26] <cradek> AEther
[05:20:31] <cradek> highly customized
[05:21:33] <Jymmm> a blogger script. ok
[05:26:14] <cradek> added another clock
[05:27:00] <Jymmm> cradek : You have TOO MUCH time on your hands! lol
[05:27:12] <cradek> nah, this is years worth of playing
[05:27:24] <Jymmm> no, reread what I said =)
[05:27:27] <cradek> I have other projects that need photos taken
[05:27:59] <Jymmm> (clock obsession =)
[05:28:02] <cradek> I got rid of TV so I have time to do other things. Everyone has lots of time if they don't waste it.
[05:28:22] <cradek> yeah, I like clocks, they're a nice little project that lets you be creative but still have a useful object when done
[05:29:21] <Jymmm> yeah... I just like the idea of the LED clock. a lil nestalgic (sp)
[05:29:38] <cradek> haha, most of the clocks I make are pre-LED technology
[05:29:42] <cradek> LEDs are "new"
[05:30:03] <Jymmm> heh, I'd love to find some blue NON-difused ones.
[05:31:23] <cradek> hmm, work on the 6800 has come to a standstill....
[05:31:48] <Jymmm> who needs 8bit 6800 =)
[05:31:53] <Jymmm> 7bit rule!
[05:32:03] <cradek> oh I don't need it, but it's a neat project.
[05:32:33] <Jymmm> I meant steal a IO for the 8bit data
[05:32:38] <Jymmm> s/for/from/
[05:32:41] <cradek> ah
[05:32:52] <cradek> it's tempting to use the high address line, since I won't have near that much ram
[05:33:00] <cradek> but that would make the front panel not work right.
[05:33:16] <cradek> and, rom goes at the top of memory, so I guess I need it
[05:33:27] <Jymmm> can you tristate an IO on a AVR ?
[05:33:37] <cradek> yep, change it to an input
[05:33:44] <Jymmm> cool
[05:33:51] <cradek> it can provide pullup or not
[05:34:40] <Jymmm> After I get my router finally up and going, I really might take you up on learning to progrma the AVR... 'hello world!' and all that
[05:35:38] <cradek> did I offer that? I must be getting old
[05:35:50] <Jymmm> you got volunteered! lol
[05:36:24] <cradek> I would expect you to try to figure it out yourself first [google] but I will happily help if you have troubles or questions
[05:36:40] <Jymmm> Not to worry, once I know how to start, I RTFM, then ask when I get in trouble
[05:36:58] <cradek> that avrfreaks.net is good.
[05:37:03] <Jymmm> it's getting started somethimes can be a bitch
[05:37:11] <cradek> that's certainly true
[05:37:29] <cradek> maybe I should write a web page
[05:37:35] <cradek> or you should, when you get started
[05:38:31] <Jymmm> that's an idea.
[08:14:51] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Our sponsor having the power outages informs us that they need to have their machines locked down by the hour, so we will probably start the conversion in just a few minutes to get it done prior to the craziness.
[08:15:06] <lilo> [Global Notice] Please bear with us and we'll keep you posted
[08:48:55] <lilo> [Global Notice] Okay, folks, here we go with the conversion.... see you on the other side!
[09:05:49] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Needless to say, things will be getting dicey soon, the power outage has not yet happened
[09:05:59] <lilo> [Global Notice] Life will be....exciting.... for a bit
[09:14:35] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Slight glitch. Please note the changing cloak names, per the news item.
[09:14:53] <lilo> [Global Notice] Not all cloaks are changed though, the conversion may take a bit of time.
[09:24:27] <lilo> [Global Notice] We may experience DNS problems folks
[09:25:01] <lilo> [Global Notice] The problems will resolve within about an hour if they occur; please bear with us
[10:47:08] <lilo> [Global Notice] Okay, in a bit there will be load leveling. It will be painful, but quick.... apologies in advance!
[11:02:25] <alex_joni> morning paul_c
[11:04:12] <Jacky^> hi
[11:45:10] <lilo> [Global Notice] Okay, folks, it appears we are finally ready to do that load balancing exercise.... please bear with us
[12:25:03] <paul_c> alex_joni: Got some info that will allow the defines from global_defs.h to be moved in to config.h
[13:14:53] <alex_joni> paul_c: nice to hear that.. care to share?
[14:01:46] <paul_c> shared.
[14:02:18] <CIA-8> 03paul_c * 10emc2/src/ (9 files in 6 dirs): Moved global defines for buffer & line lengths in to config.h - If everyone uses this as the first #include, it will help in avoiding buffer overruns..
[14:02:23] <CIA-8> 03paul_c * 10emc2/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Moved global defines for buffer & line lengths in to config.h - If everyone uses this as the first #include, it will help in avoiding buffer overruns..
[14:06:52] <alex_joni> paul_c: :P
[14:07:30] <paul_c> couple of typos to catch.
[14:08:44] <CIA-8> 03paul_c * 10emc2/src/emc/ (4 files in 4 dirs): A couple of typos crept in..
[14:13:08] <alex_joni> one thing..
[14:13:19] <alex_joni> in config.h.in
[14:13:20] <alex_joni> #ifndef _GNU_SOURCE
[14:13:20] <alex_joni> # define _GNU_SOURCE
[14:13:20] <alex_joni> #endif
[14:13:31] <alex_joni> shouldn't that be #define _GNU_SOURCE ?
[14:14:49] <paul_c> up to you.
[14:15:11] <alex_joni> later tonight.. right now I'm stuck on doze :(
[14:25:53] <ValarQ> CIA-8: hello mr 8
[14:32:51] <alex_joni> ValarQ: stop talking to bots ;)
[14:42:49] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes home
[15:18:34] <ValarQ> :(
[17:11:52] <anonimasu> evening
[18:21:31] <paul_c> anonimasu: Did the latest rounds of fixes solve your bug ?
[18:43:58] <anonimasu> paul_c: I havent tested yet
[18:44:09] <anonimasu> paul_c: had 4 hours of sleep yesterday night due to work :)
[18:44:13] <anonimasu> I'll try it now
[18:47:36] <anonimasu> cs_sem_wait(8617984,1.000000) returned -1 (errno 22) after 0.000020
[18:47:37] <anonimasu> _sem.c: rcs_sem_wait(): Invalid argument
[18:47:48] <anonimasu> wont start
[18:48:08] <anonimasu> or wait a bit
[18:48:12] <anonimasu> hm nope
[19:58:16] <Yuga> hey all
[20:03:57] <les> hi Yuga
[20:06:26] <Yuga> how u doing les?
[20:07:17] <anonimasu> les: I did some more calcs while sitting in the care today the USC will be able to push enough pulses to max out my servos at full resolution
[20:07:37] <anonimasu> 0,000625 per pulse
[20:07:50] <anonimasu> and 7,5 m/min max speed..
[20:11:37] <paul_c> anonimasu: try ~/emc3
[20:15:59] <anonimasu> ok
[20:18:13] <anonimasu> wont run
[20:18:28] <anonimasu> SHMEM: Can't take semaphore
[20:25:17] <anonimasu> have anyone here used a USC?
[20:25:23] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is curious about power requirement
[20:32:14] <anonimasu> hello
[20:32:15] <anonimasu> :)
[20:33:14] <Yuga> .
[20:33:49] <anonimasu> I found the sheet again..
[20:33:54] <anonimasu> 9VDC
[20:34:01] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has a adapter here also
[20:34:06] <paul_c> anonimasu: Looks like 2.4.21 doesn't have a key syscall (or it has a bug....) Just added a workround, so if you wouldn't mind testing it again..
[20:34:16] <anonimasu> sure
[20:35:20] <anonimasu> it works, but I dont know if it's due to the period setting..
[20:36:45] <anonimasu> nope still locks up
[20:37:03] <anonimasu> but only with higher period settings
[20:38:35] <Jymmm> anyone know a source of aluminum extrusion like this?
http://www.saf.com/images/87906.gif
[20:40:23] <anonimasu> Jymmm: probably any place that sells alu
[20:40:39] <Jymmm> nope, special profile
[20:41:35] <anonimasu> and you couldnt live with a normal extruded prifile?
[20:41:41] <anonimasu> profile?
[20:42:34] <Jymmm> I need THAT profile
[20:42:44] <anonimasu> buy it off them?
[20:43:04] <Jymmm> wrong dimensions, that own is 4" wide
[20:43:09] <Jymmm> s/own/one/
[20:47:50] <Jacky^> hello folks
[20:48:03] <Jacky^> :)
[20:57:45] <paul_c> anonimasu: You say making period smaller causes the lock up ?
[20:57:48] <anonimasu> yes
[20:57:57] <paul_c> how much smaller ?
[20:58:07] <anonimasu> 25 instead of 50
[20:58:29] <Jymmm> Well, that company lost my business even if they DID have what I needed
[21:07:17] <paul_c> anonimasu: What do you do to trigger the lock ?
[21:09:17] <anonimasu> switch modes
[21:11:10] <paul_c> manual->auto->mdi and back again....
[21:13:42] <anonimasu> �yeah
[21:16:40] <anonimasu> ok
[21:16:41] <anonimasu> :)
[21:16:50] <anonimasu> if you want you can export the X session to yourself..
[21:18:26] <paul_c> let's try increasing the timeout for the semaphores....
[21:18:30] <anonimasu> ok
[21:18:44] <paul_c> take it for another spin..
[21:19:33] <anonimasu> doing it now
[21:19:56] <anonimasu> locked up again
[21:40:07] <robin_sz> meep?
[21:40:17] <Jacky^> hi robin_sz
[21:40:25] <anonimasu> hello robin
[21:40:31] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waves
[21:40:37] <robin_sz> Jacky^: the email work OK?
[21:40:55] <Jacky^> robin_sz: yes, all right :)
[21:41:01] <robin_sz> good.
[21:41:16] <robin_sz> so ... is all well in emc land?
[21:41:40] <robin_sz> have the UPS pixies delivered Jymmms router agin yet?
[21:43:22] <anonimasu> no
[21:43:22] <anonimasu> :)
[21:43:28] <robin_sz> heh
[21:43:56] <robin_sz> my bet is on it being delivered in september
[21:44:51] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I re did my calcs..
[21:44:58] <anonimasu> the usc will take my machine to 7.5m/min
[21:45:14] <anonimasu> with 0,000625mm per step ;)
[21:45:34] <robin_sz> if your motors have the speed and torque ....
[21:45:51] <anonimasu> they are geared for torque..
[21:45:57] <robin_sz> good
[21:46:07] <anonimasu> that was the calulation of what the motors will manage..
[21:46:16] <robin_sz> so ... spin it up and see what gives
[21:46:20] <anonimasu> at max speced rpm..
[21:46:21] <Jacky^> today I have burnt a bearing attempting to sold it on one iron plate with the welder electrical
[21:46:29] <anonimasu> heh
[21:46:46] <anonimasu> race warped and it died?
[21:46:51] <robin_sz> welding a bearing?
[21:47:06] <anonimasu> big no-no..
[21:47:14] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:47:18] <anonimasu> machine a o
[21:47:24] <robin_sz> but, i guess you have to try it to find out
[21:47:34] <anonimasu> and hammer the bearing in palce.. and weld it on :)
[21:47:38] <Jacky^> at the end i succesful sold it using a normal electronic solder
[21:47:47] <anonimasu> Jacky^: is this for a machine?
[21:48:00] <Jacky^> sure
[21:48:08] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hmmms
[21:48:12] <anonimasu> Jacky^: do it again and do it right :)
[21:48:16] <Jacky^> small machine..
[21:48:24] <robin_sz> solder wont work ...
[21:48:55] <Jacky^> i wanst thinking it could sold on iron or bearing
[21:49:00] <robin_sz> silver solder *might* ... but you will probably ruin the bearing
[21:50:05] <Jacky^> robin_sz: right
[21:51:15] <robin_sz> can I recommend 2 hole flange bearings?
[21:51:46] <Jacky^> robin_sz: should be nice
[21:51:58] <Jacky^> i've no way to get it
[21:52:12] <robin_sz> or ... if you are REALLY desperate ... just use 4 bolts
[21:52:18] <robin_sz> and some washers
[21:52:27] <robin_sz> no way to get what?
[21:52:41] <Jacky^> the flange bearing
[21:53:02] <robin_sz> why not, they do not have post in italy?
[21:53:33] <anonimasu> Jacky^: have somone machine it for you
[21:53:37] <anonimasu> or machine it by hand..
[21:53:43] <Jacky^> i bought the bearings in a store for car parts
[21:53:47] <anonimasu> if you have access to a mill..
[21:53:49] <Jacky^> i've no idea..
[21:53:50] <robin_sz> why?
[21:53:53] <anonimasu> or a lathe..
[21:54:01] <robin_sz> why not buy bearings in a bearing shop?
[21:54:09] <anonimasu> hell my bearing mounts are a iron plate facemilled with a iron tube welded to it..
[21:54:19] <anonimasu> err faces in the lathe..
[21:54:29] <anonimasu> when I turned the bearings into it.. and the lock rings..
[21:54:48] <anonimasu> they are waiting for a re-design
[21:54:53] <anonimasu> I dont need to have 4 bearings..
[21:54:58] <robin_sz> actually, Jacky welding bearings reminds me of useful advice ...
[21:55:12] <robin_sz> when you have a bearing stuck in a housing ..
[21:55:14] <anonimasu> 2 normal bearings will do just fine..
[21:55:25] <anonimasu> welding the race.. to shrink it..
[21:55:26] <robin_sz> destroy the race, remove the centre ..
[21:55:32] <robin_sz> then weld the outer race
[21:55:34] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:55:37] <robin_sz> works a treat
[21:56:02] <anonimasu> I have \ bearings..
[21:56:10] <anonimasu> but I'll downgrade to flat ones..
[21:56:18] <robin_sz> hey, I got broadband at the factory today ...
[21:56:30] <robin_sz> not tried the modem on it yet ...
[21:56:33] <robin_sz> but I will
[21:56:44] <anonimasu> the bearings as it is today will take to much more then I need..
[21:56:55] <robin_sz> have you go tthe USC yet?
[21:57:01] <anonimasu> robin_sz: : yes..
[21:57:07] <anonimasu> going to hook it up tomorrow afternoon
[21:57:07] <robin_sz> wired it up?
[21:57:13] <anonimasu> got home late today
[21:57:13] <robin_sz> nice
[21:57:13] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[21:57:13] <Red70sShow> -----> anonimasu <----- DUMBASS
[21:57:13] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[21:57:35] <Jymmm> anonimasu sleep when your dead!
[21:57:38] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I got 4 hours of sleep last night.. '
[21:57:50] <robin_sz> anonimasu: yeah, I knew a girl like that once
[21:57:52] <Jymmm> See, I KNEW you were gonna say that!
[21:57:54] <anonimasu> but I digged up a 9v power supply
[21:58:03] <anonimasu> robin_sz: : like what?
[21:58:11] <anonimasu> flat?
[21:58:16] <Jymmm> lol
[21:58:20] <robin_sz> anonimasu> Jymmm: I got 4 hours of sleep last night.. '
[21:58:33] <anonimasu> ah, introduce me..
[21:58:43] <robin_sz> would do ...
[21:58:48] <robin_sz> except I married her ;)
[21:58:54] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I need to machine heatsinks for the geckos..
[21:58:56] <anonimasu> too bad :)
[21:59:11] <anonimasu> so I can mount all electronics in a box..
[21:59:22] <ValarQ> * ValarQ got geckos as well
[21:59:28] <anonimasu> I have a nice sealed one for it..
[21:59:31] <robin_sz> everybody gets geckos
[21:59:37] <Jymmm> anonimasu fuck the box, fuck the heatsinks.... get a big ass fan and wire it up on the bench!
[21:59:49] <anonimasu> Jymmm: flood coolant YAY
[21:59:49] <robin_sz> uh huh ....
[22:00:02] <Jymmm> anonimasu you are worse than a woman sometimes!
[22:00:09] <ValarQ> or Eublepharis Macularis :)
[22:00:19] <Jymmm> At least a woman will make you wait to have some nice eye candy
[22:00:33] <anonimasu> Jymmm: do it once do it right.
[22:00:36] <robin_sz> how awful
[22:00:39] <Jymmm> anonimasu is too ugly to be considered 'eye candy' EVER!
[22:00:39] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[22:00:42] <anonimasu> Jymmm: you should have learnt that by now..
[22:00:57] <Jymmm> anonimasu It never works that way....
[22:01:15] <Jymmm> test it, it works, then go about making it pretty
[22:01:26] <robin_sz> my favourite is people who say "oh, I didnt have time tto do it properly" .. yeah? but you have time to do it twice huh?
[22:01:35] <anonimasu> Jymmm: if it works I'll be busy making parts...
[22:01:49] <Jymmm> uh huh
[22:01:52] <Jacky^> lol
[22:02:50] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I am dying to see it in action but hooking up stuff with lack of sleep is bad. really bad.
[22:03:07] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[22:03:13] <anonimasu> I have my geckos hanging at the back of the machine.
[22:03:21] <anonimasu> bolted to a large alu slab..
[22:03:22] <Jymmm> anonimasu that's true, but you've had it almost a week now.
[22:03:25] <robin_sz> I once destroyed a �300 GaAsfet that way ...
[22:03:45] <robin_sz> messed with it when too tired ...
[22:04:01] <robin_sz> lost the -ve bias voltage .. plapp. toasted.
[22:04:25] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I thought that I should re-wire them properly into a bix when I got time..
[22:04:31] <anonimasu> but it seems like I'll never get time
[22:04:43] <anonimasu> hence the reason I am going to put all electronics in a box..
[22:05:08] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I really think you should bench test it before hand.
[22:05:19] <robin_sz> test it in the box
[22:05:25] <anonimasu> having no flood cooant keep machining alu a pain
[22:05:54] <robin_sz> does EMC support it as standard?
[22:06:05] <robin_sz> or do you have ot use goats blood and chicken bones?
[22:06:24] <anonimasu> robin_sz: emc does, but emc2 requires some sacrifice
[22:06:41] <robin_sz> want some ideas on what to sacrifice?
[22:07:03] <anonimasu> I have a spare leg..
[22:07:19] <robin_sz> errm .. thats not a leg ...
[22:07:22] <anonimasu> the right one can go.
[22:13:13] <alex_joni> good evening
[22:14:04] <Jacky^> evening alex_joni
[22:14:39] <alex_joni> what's up?
[22:16:25] <Jymmm> alex_joni robin_sz blood pressure
[22:16:35] <alex_joni> heh.. what now?
[22:16:43] <Jymmm> alex_joni SSDD
[22:18:47] <robin_sz> hey Jymmm, I like your new website ;)
[22:19:30] <alex_joni> wot new website?
[22:20:26] <robin_sz> oh, just a joke ...
[22:25:08] <alex_joni> heh.. this BDI install will take a "while"
[22:25:15] <alex_joni> 115 minutes remaining :((
[22:28:20] <les> hi all
[22:28:32] <LawrenceG> hi guys...
[22:28:39] <les> Hi lawrence
[22:28:50] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waves
[22:28:59] <alex_joni> * alex_joni waves too
[22:29:14] <les> just was doing sanity checks on the air generator
[22:29:19] <les> guess it's real.
[22:30:04] <les> gee, all that physics stuff works.
[22:31:17] <alex_joni> glad to hear
[22:31:46] <les> They are already asking about product development phase.
[22:31:57] <les> That takes a long time doesn't it?
[22:32:54] <les> Guess I had better ask for funding for a year or so?
[22:33:11] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:33:13] <anonimasu> lol
[22:33:15] <robin_sz> and a team
[22:33:22] <robin_sz> and a heart doctor
[22:33:30] <les> yeah...
[22:33:32] <anonimasu> les: new car soon?
[22:33:47] <les> heh
[22:34:08] <anonimasu> isnt that what funding is for?
[22:34:10] <les> They forgot all about spray guns...started talking aerospace etc
[22:34:42] <anonimasu> les: what did we tell you ;)
[22:34:43] <les> "course it's just talk on the telephone.
[22:34:50] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:34:54] <les> yes you were right
[22:35:12] <anonimasu> very cool :)
[22:35:21] <les> Still waiting for a killer problem to creep up
[22:35:27] <les> but it hasn't
[22:35:33] <anonimasu> you might not have any..
[22:35:41] <anonimasu> occasionally every decade stuff like that happens..
[22:35:49] <anonimasu> ONCE or twice ;)
[22:36:04] <les> heh
[22:36:05] <robin_sz> until you find its already patented in Japan
[22:36:13] <les> haha
[22:36:18] <robin_sz> which is a WPCT country
[22:36:38] <les> I'm too weird....nobody ever thinks of my crazy stuff
[22:37:45] <les> I could see a turkey production/product dev conflict here...
[22:37:54] <robin_sz> nah,
[22:37:54] <les> good problem to have I guess.
[22:38:02] <robin_sz> manage your way out of it
[22:38:11] <robin_sz> its just a management problem ... nothing more
[22:38:25] <les> oh, ok!;)
[22:38:33] <robin_sz> our sales stuff is going well ...
[22:38:33] <anonimasu> robin_sz: nice point
[22:39:02] <les> Things do seem to be picking up
[22:39:02] <robin_sz> found a company just a few miles away that has been turning away jobs requiring laser cutting, because of no local supplier
[22:39:12] <les> hmm
[22:39:26] <robin_sz> they *claim* to have turned away over 100K in the last 6months ...
[22:39:52] <anonimasu> local supplies?
[22:40:01] <anonimasu> heh..
[22:40:08] <robin_sz> we'll see ...
[22:40:17] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:40:18] <anonimasu> :9
[22:41:29] <les> I like manufacturing beeter than development really
[22:41:34] <les> better
[22:41:47] <les> a mix is perfect though.
[22:41:49] <robin_sz> both are interesting phases
[22:42:16] <robin_sz> tweaking a product for maximum profit is fun
[22:42:23] <les> yeah
[22:42:37] <les> except when programming anti vibrations
[22:42:45] <robin_sz> oh, heh
[22:42:50] <robin_sz> thing of the past
[22:42:53] <les> yup
[22:43:03] <robin_sz> when you tink about it ...
[22:43:09] <robin_sz> now knowing what we know ...
[22:43:28] <robin_sz> even thsoe "anti vibrations" must have been causing vibration
[22:43:51] <les> Galil called today...follow up
[22:43:53] <anonimasu> hm..
[22:44:00] <anonimasu> les: you should have turned off the blending..
[22:44:10] <robin_sz> "no thanks, we already got one"
[22:44:12] <anonimasu> and connected the segments ( manually
[22:44:15] <les> They admit flashcut is rotten
[22:44:25] <anonimasu> hand blend
[22:44:37] <les> but have " no interest in cnc controls"
[22:44:38] <robin_sz> flashcut is galil driven?
[22:44:47] <anonimasu> um
[22:44:49] <anonimasu> I didnt know
[22:45:08] <les> yeah...the only real sofware machine control that uses galil
[22:45:15] <robin_sz> coo
[22:45:23] <robin_sz> wincnc is something im seeing more of
[22:45:38] <robin_sz> from microsystems of buckhannon
[22:45:43] <les> oh the old dos control
[22:45:48] <les> yeah forgot that
[22:45:48] <robin_sz> noh
[22:45:56] <robin_sz> their new windows one
[22:46:00] <robin_sz> with a motion card
[22:46:12] <robin_sz> their old dos one aint bad
[22:46:17] <les> oh
[22:46:50] <robin_sz> of the various dos ones the msys one wa better than a lot
[22:47:16] <les> I talked about the emc interpreter being used to call cannonical galil functiond
[22:47:26] <robin_sz> uh huh ...
[22:47:32] <les> They said the cnc market was very poor now
[22:47:42] <robin_sz> errm ...
[22:47:43] <les> did not want to invest in it
[22:47:45] <les> ???
[22:47:45] <robin_sz> well, no
[22:47:55] <robin_sz> they must be fools
[22:48:04] <robin_sz> there is more and more and more cnc stuff happening
[22:48:13] <anonimasu> hm yeah
[22:48:13] <robin_sz> they just mean "we arent getting any of it"
[22:48:21] <anonimasu> prodiction costs too much to do by hand
[22:48:25] <les> hmm
[22:48:32] <anonimasu> production that is
[22:48:41] <robin_sz> ok, so its no longer fanuc prices on smaller stuff
[22:48:43] <robin_sz> but ...
[22:48:51] <robin_sz> its WAY cheaper to make a control now too
[22:49:03] <anonimasu> fpga's and stuff..
[22:49:21] <les> I just said an emc interpreter to galil was a fast track quick an cheap way to get in
[22:49:29] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:49:52] <les> well I said the hardware cost was not a problem...not even theirs
[22:49:57] <les> it's the code
[22:50:03] <robin_sz> I ahppen to kow one of their competitor is evaluating the emc interp right now ;)
[22:50:20] <les> no real good response from them
[22:50:28] <les> What's their problem?
[22:50:39] <robin_sz> lack of clue?
[22:50:43] <les> heh
[22:51:03] <les> I guess
[22:51:36] <robin_sz> I sent PD and GPL'd versions of the interp to some other company to evaluate
[22:51:38] <robin_sz> they love it
[22:51:59] <les> the interp is pd only I think
[22:52:05] <robin_sz> not in emc2
[22:52:11] <les> the old one anyway
[22:52:26] <les> the rumley one might be GPL
[22:52:43] <robin_sz> I picked carefully fromt he tree
[22:53:09] <robin_sz> anyway, I should be getting some free hardware as a thankyou
[22:53:29] <anonimasu> if they use gpl.. it's way better.
[22:53:29] <les> Things written by the US government are PD, period.
[22:53:37] <robin_sz> well, sorta
[22:54:05] <robin_sz> I cant hoenstly see how you can gpl them at all, but .. apparently you can
[22:54:15] <les> heh
[22:54:24] <les> well no big deal either way
[22:54:33] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:55:26] <les> Well now where is yuga?
[22:55:59] <les> We are supposed to help him with some fundamental decisions about making a large router
[22:56:12] <anonimasu> :)
[22:56:37] <anonimasu> I told him to be careful when selecting servos and not just buy whatever he can :)
[22:56:45] <les> I want to start with "cost is the cube of linear dimensions"
[22:56:54] <anonimasu> and have a talk with you about inertia matching and speed ..
[22:57:07] <les> ah just came on chat
[22:57:08] <robin_sz> les: the nost expensive is Z height
[22:58:11] <robin_sz> les: more X typicall is just linear, more Y adds at a higher rate .. but Z is a square law at least .. as you need to improve X and Y strengths too
[23:01:35] <Jymmm> I hate when they make server change overs!
[23:01:59] <les> Well starting a big router project is planning a chunk of your life really
[23:02:29] <alex_joni> dang
[23:02:32] <alex_joni> guess what
[23:02:39] <robin_sz> your leg fell off?
[23:02:49] <alex_joni> I only installed an hour or so.. to see that I don't have enough space on this HDD
[23:02:50] <alex_joni> :(
[23:02:59] <robin_sz> hehehe
[23:03:12] <robin_sz> just run doublespace ...
[23:03:19] <Jymmm> * Jymmm smacks robin_sz
[23:03:21] <alex_joni> on ext3 ?
[23:03:30] <alex_joni> on a PII-233 ?
[23:03:32] <robin_sz> oh, not dos 6.0 then?
[23:03:36] <alex_joni> for RT stuff?
[23:03:44] <alex_joni> 1.2GB should be enough for DOS
[23:03:50] <alex_joni> I recall someone saying ;)
[23:04:01] <robin_sz> 640kb is enough for anyone
[23:04:04] <Jymmm> alex_joni that's a lie too
[23:04:33] <Jymmm> but I'm not your average DOS user either.
[23:04:50] <robin_sz> surely no one uses it anymore
[23:05:05] <alex_joni> heh.. well, I hope the BDI-4.20 fits on this 1.2 gig hdd
[23:05:12] <Jymmm> surely you would be incorrect
[23:05:14] <alex_joni> no room for a swap partition though
[23:11:54] <les> yuga? Yuga? Let's design a router!!!
[23:12:22] <Jymmm> les? les? Let's sell it for $19.95 USD with free shipping
[23:12:54] <anonimasu> lol
[23:13:01] <Jacky^> robin_sz: do not swear DOS is the future..
[23:13:43] <les> swear DOS?
[23:13:59] <les> like...oh DOS! I STUBBED MY TOE>
[23:14:12] <Jymmm> lol, yeah like that les
[23:14:26] <Jacky^> i seen many actually machine usind dos
[23:14:31] <Jacky^> very nice :)
[23:14:35] <les> oh DOS! my shift key sticks.
[23:14:47] <Jymmm> les DOS YOU!
[23:14:56] <les> Doz you!
[23:14:58] <Jymmm> KISS MY DOS
[23:15:06] <les> hahaha
[23:15:54] <Jymmm> YOU STUPID PIECE OF DOS!
[23:16:11] <robin_sz> shh now
[23:16:22] <Jymmm> robin_sz DOS OFF!
[23:16:35] <robin_sz> or I'll tell them all about jymmm.isgay.com ..
[23:16:37] <LawrenceG> what the DOS are you guys on about?
[23:16:37] <robin_sz> oops.
[23:18:02] <les> Shame on me...I made a living for a good while writing simple c apps for dos.
[23:18:23] <Jymmm> les : Hey I still use DOS
[23:18:46] <les> soft real time if you don't flush buffers.
[23:18:46] <Jacky^> CA clipper ah ! that compiler
[23:19:12] <robin_sz> will GCC cross-compikle for dos?
[23:19:12] <Jymmm> If I could find a copy of Q&A I'd be happy
[23:19:18] <LawrenceG> * LawrenceG is waiting for Fedex to bring fets for a science experiment!
[23:19:31] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ sigh
[23:19:52] <robin_sz> LawrenceG: does it volve high voltage fets and monkey brains?
[23:19:54] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ apt-cache search dos emulator
[23:20:08] <Jymmm> Jacky^ dosemu
[23:20:17] <Jymmm> but theres another one I can't recall
[23:20:19] <Jacky^> =)
[23:20:40] <cradek> watcom for dos is available for free nowadays
[23:21:02] <cradek> so is borland turbo C
[23:21:09] <Jymmm> was jsut gonna say that
[23:21:10] <Jacky^> talking abou emulator.. i i remember well there's a website online that emulate C64
[23:21:30] <Jacky^> i can't remember the url
[23:21:41] <Jymmm> cradek : Hell, the source code for MS-DOS is available now too
[23:21:54] <les> It is???
[23:22:08] <cradek> news to me
[23:22:14] <Jymmm> les : It's available via a BIG M$ leak last year
[23:22:20] <les> ah
[23:22:21] <Jymmm> so is portions of NT4
[23:22:23] <LawrenceG> watcom and dos made the pc usefull... real 32bit compiler and environment... no windows in the way
[23:22:28] <cradek> oh, that's not the same as available
[23:22:49] <Jymmm> cradek it's available, never said it was legal/free to use.
[23:22:49] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ nods
[23:23:00] <LawrenceG> lets gpl it!
[23:23:03] <Jymmm> lol
[23:23:09] <Jymmm> FreeDOS.com
[23:23:15] <Jymmm> or org I cant recall
[23:23:21] <les> I ran a manufacturing line with borland compiled c for dos and a lot of old dash 16 data aq cards
[23:23:51] <Jymmm> les Shit, I have/had a 8bit ISA SCSI card around here soemwhere
[23:23:53] <les> long ago.
[23:24:32] <Jymmm> Now, I just keep my 486SX30
[23:24:43] <les> Paul once compiled some of my old dos source and ran it on linux
[23:24:45] <cradek> I run autocad under freedos all the time
[23:25:26] <Jacky^> amiga was a nice computer
[23:25:41] <Jacky^> maybe it is yet..
[23:26:58] <LawrenceG> best point in recent cpu history was 486dx50.... took a developemnt project that took 30 seconds to run on a 386 and ran it in real time (<1sec)... sparked a whole product line for my old company
[23:27:28] <LawrenceG> recent changes are not quite as dramatic
[23:27:49] <Jacky^> :)
[23:28:28] <LawrenceG> brb
[23:31:45] <Jacky^> hey..
[23:32:08] <Jacky^> http://cgi.ebay.com/Faulhaber-MicroMo-Brushless-DC-Servomotor-3556K-BLI_W0QQitemZ7536101119QQcategoryZ78195QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[23:32:19] <Jacky^> do you like this servo ?
[23:33:35] <Jacky^> i bid 12 $
[23:33:52] <les> awfully small servo jacky
[23:34:28] <Jacky^> les: how much should be the prices for it ?
[23:34:39] <Jacky^> ebay price i mean..
[23:35:34] <les> well low...$50 or less. But it is too small for any cnc isn't it?
[23:35:51] <paul_c> look at the input - 0 to 10V or PWM.... Doesn't strike me as being suitable for a servo.
[23:35:52] <les> only 34 watts
[23:37:10] <Jacky^> i let go, then ..
[23:37:47] <anonimasu> heh 34w..
[23:37:51] <les> yes that is best I think
[23:38:02] <Jacky^> ;-)
[23:38:03] <anonimasu> you will need lots of more power
[23:38:21] <Jacky^> and $$$$ :\
[23:38:40] <Jacky^> that actually i dont have, damn
[23:39:21] <les> you can find som deals
[23:39:35] <les> need to figure what size you really need
[23:40:18] <Jacky^> my idea is not more expensive for now
[23:40:39] <les> jacky are you interested in routers or metalworking cnc?
[23:40:59] <les> wood right?
[23:41:03] <Jacky^> no metalworking for now
[23:41:08] <les> oh ok.
[23:41:08] <Jacky^> just wood
[23:41:21] <les> what size?
[23:41:51] <Jacky^> 1mt x 80 cm
[23:42:04] <les> ok
[23:42:35] <les> You will be looking at servos around 250w
[23:42:50] <Jacky^> i would like to learn more about servos
[23:43:05] <Jacky^> tryng pratically
[23:43:16] <les> plenty on the web
[23:43:46] <Jacky^> do you have the url ?
[23:44:21] <les> A 250w continuous servo can usually put out 750-1000w peak
[23:44:35] <les> just google...there are thousands of sites
[23:44:42] <Jacky^> and, as controller instead ?
[23:44:56] <paul_c> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lot-of-Indramat-Parts-Drive-Panel-Servo-Motor-CNC_W0QQitemZ7535793338QQcategoryZ97184QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[23:45:16] <les> Well you need control, amp, servo, encoder.
[23:48:00] <Jacky^> les: yeah, tnx
[23:48:15] <paul_c> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lot-of-Indramat-Parts-Drive-Panel-Servo-Motor-CNC_W0QQitemZ7535793338QQcategoryZ97184QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[23:48:32] <Jacky^> paul_c: nice kit, on first url
[23:49:10] <les> typically (at least here) for your size machine....
[23:49:20] <les> control will be emc...free.
[23:49:43] <les> need a card...$US570
[23:49:49] <Jacky^> i'm looking if they send it outside us..
[23:50:02] <les> 3 amps...$US300
[23:50:32] <les> 3 servos with encoders...US$300 or so
[23:50:56] <les> total US$1170
[23:51:08] <les> plus shipping to sunny Italy.
[23:51:18] <Jacky^> and this should be a mchine for beginner right ?
[23:51:27] <les> yes
[23:52:19] <les> Also...Italian companies make some of the finest woodworking cnc routers in the world you know
[23:52:26] <les> so check them out too
[23:52:47] <les> I am not familiar with them but see themat shows here
[23:52:55] <paul_c> they also had a few talented stone masons...
[23:53:07] <les> yeah.
[23:53:20] <Jacky^> les: there's some nice website here: ronchini massimo
[23:53:38] <Jacky^> i think leader in italy..
[23:53:59] <Jacky^> but the prices are not too clear
[23:54:29] <les> heh...Get experience making your own...then get a good job there!
[23:56:29] <Jacky^> :)
[23:56:37] <Jacky^> I like this website:
[23:56:48] <Jacky^> http://www.propellers.it/
[23:56:55] <les> looking
[23:57:03] <Jacky^> very nice works using cnc machine
[23:57:15] <Jacky^> look at photogallery
[23:57:38] <les> I did
[23:57:39] <les> nice
[23:57:48] <Jacky^> yeah..
[23:58:07] <Jacky^> great experience on wood
[23:59:04] <les> I have flown one plane with a wooden propeller
[23:59:15] <les> but it had a carbon fiber skin
[23:59:56] <Jacky^> he use this machine for his works:
http://www.ronchinimassimo.com/images/tancetti02.jpg
