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[00:22:38] <anonimasu> hm
[00:26:28] <Jacky^> damn.. 4 L298 burned today !
[00:26:39] <Jacky^> all in the same controller ..
[00:26:47] <Jacky^> :(��������������
[00:28:19] <Jacky^> can be the ground ??
[00:28:48] <Jacky^> i'm using 220 V whitout center ground ..
[00:29:20] <paul_c> through an isolation transformer ?
[00:29:40] <Jacky^> nope, directly
[00:29:49] <paul_c> EEKKKss
[00:30:04] <Jacky^> is there 220 V - 24 transformer
[00:30:11] <paul_c> Put a tansformer in there before you get yourself killed.
[00:30:14] <Jacky^> Power supply ..
[00:30:19] <anonimasu> argh..
[00:30:26] <Jacky^> :(
[00:30:44] <paul_c> OK, so you do have a transformer in there...
[00:30:53] <Jacky^> sure..
[00:31:10] <Jacky^> for power supply , out 32 V
[00:31:49] <Jacky^> i worked all the week to finish the box ..
[00:32:18] <Jacky^> today, turning on the drivers, first l298 burned on z axis
[00:33:27] <Jacky^> i checked cable motor with an ohmeter, it seem ok
[00:35:04] <Jacky^> looking for some test circuit to check L297-298
[00:35:23] <Jacky^> seem not exist :(
[00:37:21] <anonimasu> hmmmmm
[00:38:33] <Jacky^> the only way to check l297 seem to be replacing it in a working circuit..
[00:41:01] <Jacky^> anyone want to see a nice video ?
[00:41:06] <Jacky^> http://www.takanishi.mech.waseda.ac.jp/research/flute/movie/BumbleBee.mpg
[00:41:27] <Jacky^> a robot playng a flute ! lol
[00:41:35] <Jacky^> cool
[01:06:26] <Jacky^> gnight
[03:10:15] <cradek> hmm, CR750 didn't come back
[03:10:28] <Jymmm> is that a motorcycle?
[03:10:38] <cradek> probably, but that's his irc nick
[03:10:41] <cradek> a guy I'm trying to help
[03:10:45] <Jymmm> ah
[03:11:36] <Jymmm> Well shit... I can get 90IPM via Mach2
[03:11:54] <Jymmm> any faster and it stalls.
[03:12:28] <Jymmm> this is driving me nuts.
[03:12:58] <Jymmm> I need a scope =(
[03:13:40] <cradek> Jymmm: you can get a "good enough" scope for $20 at any hamfest
[03:13:47] <Jymmm> fuck it... I need a drink!
[03:14:01] <Jymmm> cradek maybe a 300 lbs scope
[03:14:04] <Jymmm> for $20
[03:14:09] <cradek> Jymmm: you will probably have to recap it and maybe replace a tube or two
[03:14:18] <Jymmm> they are goin for $125
[03:14:20] <Jymmm> +
[03:14:54] <Jymmm> actually I dont need a scope, I need a clue or tow
[03:15:00] <cradek> haha
[03:15:04] <Jymmm> brb... getting some irish coffee
[03:15:08] <cradek> that may cost more than $20
[03:15:10] <cradek> mmm
[03:26:00] <Jymmm> ok, back
[03:26:19] <Jymmm> damn.... a lil strong
[03:27:35] <cradek> did you bring one for me?
[03:27:53] <Jymmm> yep... in a 64 ounce mug
[03:28:49] <Jymmm> Hope you like Courvoisier
[03:29:39] <Jymmm> chris?
[03:29:45] <cradek> yes?
[03:29:49] <Jymmm> Hope you like Courvoisier
[03:30:19] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hears cradek googling...
[03:30:35] <cradek> no, I'm watching Jacky^'s video
[03:31:51] <cradek> heh, that's pretty cool
[03:32:02] <cradek> but somewhat out of tune sometimes
[03:32:02] <Jymmm> downloading....brb
[03:32:29] <cradek> I doubt the tuning is closed-loop like with meat (humans) playing the flute
[03:33:04] <cradek> seems like that would be "easy" enough to add, though, considering what they accomplished already
[03:40:05] <Jymmm> Eh, well until I get mine up and running, I dont care! lol
[03:47:43] <Jymmm> http://www.google.com/talk/
[03:48:28] <cradek> yay, another stupid instant messenger
[03:48:47] <cradek> that probably does almost all the things that irc has done for 10 years
[03:49:21] <cradek> oh, it's voice
[03:49:23] <cradek> I take it back
[03:49:27] <Jymmm> lol
[03:49:39] <Jymmm> ANd it works with any client, not just googles
[03:49:39] <cradek> but who wants that?
[03:49:54] <Jymmm> you can use gaim if you like
[03:50:20] <Jymmm> oh yeah.... this coffee tastes GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!
[03:51:06] <Jymmm> I dont' know... al alternative network maybe
[03:51:08] <Jymmm> an
[03:52:52] <Jymmm> heh... Could you imagien VoiceIRC ?!
[03:53:16] <Jymmm> cradek how much milling do you do on avg per month?
[03:53:57] <cradek> probably only a couple hours
[03:54:37] <Jymmm> oh so not your first hobby huh?
[03:54:54] <cradek> I have more hobbies than time
[03:55:00] <cradek> and I usually just don't have anything I need to mill
[03:56:01] <cradek> I just put new leadscrews/leadnuts on my mill last weekend
[03:56:09] <cradek> acme zero backlash
[03:56:21] <Jymmm> ah, very cool.
[03:56:51] <Jymmm> One of these days I'll take apart the nut on my z axis and take some shots. they did a good job on it I feel.
[08:37:18] <DrZimmerman> g morning
[08:38:50] <DrZimmerman> is it reliable to drive two stepper motors synchronously with two separate l297/l298 drivers on the same axis to get more power?
[08:39:30] <DrZimmerman> err, i mean l297/l293e
[09:07:23] <A-L-P-H-A> DrZimmerman, why not just gear it up?
[09:12:11] <DrZimmerman> hi A-L-P-H-A
[09:13:30] <DrZimmerman> A-L-P-H-A: i would use gears, but i don't wan't them to run too slow
[09:13:54] <DrZimmerman> A-L-P-H-A: it's not for a cnc machine, the should switch a gear for a bigger motor
[09:13:59] <DrZimmerman> s/the/they
[09:14:36] <DrZimmerman> A-L-P-H-A: and i got my hands on lot's of l297 and l293e for a good prive
[09:14:38] <DrZimmerman> price
[09:15:18] <DrZimmerman> A-L-P-H-A: and the l293e can only drive 1A
[09:41:30] <anonimasu> morning
[09:54:51] <DrZimmerman> hi
[09:59:36] <A-L-P-H-A> DrZimmerman. oh doing it for cheap, and doing it right at usually seperate things. but if you can, sure... but I don't suggest it.
[09:59:51] <A-L-P-H-A> what happens if one of the motors skip?
[10:00:02] <A-L-P-H-A> you'll get jamming.
[10:00:17] <DrZimmerman> A-L-P-H-A: this is exactly the reason why i'm asking this question :)
[10:00:19] <A-L-P-H-A> my suggestion is get the proper sized motor.
[10:00:33] <DrZimmerman> A-L-P-H-A: if one motor makes a phase slip, then they will slip eachother
[10:00:35] <A-L-P-H-A> that's the easiest solution... not the cheapest... but it's the best.
[10:00:52] <DrZimmerman> ok
[10:01:03] <A-L-P-H-A> DrZimmerman, I don't know exactly what will happen, but I'm imagining bad sounds will happen.
[10:01:24] <A-L-P-H-A> I do'nt think magic smoke will come out... but couldn't be good. could be 'okay'.
[10:01:36] <DrZimmerman> jo
[10:02:06] <DrZimmerman> probably i will do a prototype and test it
[10:02:07] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, think it's bad, if I talk to my exGF and call her Ms. Evil?
[10:02:28] <DrZimmerman> because the step motors only need to run when they switch the gear of the bigger main motor
[10:02:43] <A-L-P-H-A> well, if one motor skips, you're going to cause extra friction on the other motor... unless there's a lot of play.
[10:03:04] <A-L-P-H-A> is this for speed controlling?
[10:03:11] <DrZimmerman> yes
[10:03:21] <DrZimmerman> the main motor has a magnetic coupled gear
[10:03:23] <A-L-P-H-A> AC or DC?
[10:03:26] <DrZimmerman> dc
[10:03:46] <A-L-P-H-A> rheostat it. or PWM it.
[10:04:01] <A-L-P-H-A> google rheostat speed control or PWM speed control.
[10:04:05] <DrZimmerman> and the reason why i wish to take two step motors to switch the gear is because the coupling magnetics are very strong
[10:04:08] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: not really
[10:04:10] <anonimasu> :D
[10:04:19] <anonimasu> but she might think it's bad
[10:04:35] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasuo, well... that's how I'm addressing her... and I'm begin called "goodie good". strange.
[10:04:54] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm calling her Evil, because I think she is... but I don't know if she thinks I actually think she's evil.
[10:29:20] <anonimasu> heh
[10:29:20] <anonimasu> why is she evil?
[11:16:45] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. We've corrected an error with NickServ that resulted in the new "/msg nickserv set unfiltered on" working incorrectly.... however, if you were running with that setting ("/msg nickserv help set unfiltered"), you're going to have to turn it on again. Apologies for the inconvenience, and thank you for using freenode. Have a great morning!
[11:21:20] <Jacky^> morning all
[11:59:48] <pc_op> pc_op has kicked paul_c from #emc
[13:24:25] <anonimasu> :
[13:33:27] <paul_c> yay... Bug report filed against tcl/tk
[13:50:34] <anonimasu> :)
[15:12:59] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[15:13:13] <paul_c> Morning Steve.
[15:13:23] <steve_stallings> Afternoon Paul
[15:15:19] <steve_stallings> Did someone do something to cause pings on the status channel? They appeared and now my connection no longer drops when there is not traffic.
[15:16:07] <paul_c> freenode have been doing a bunch of changes, some not so good..
[15:16:40] <paul_c> @channelStats
[15:16:41] <pc_op> paul_c: On #emc there have been 24325 messages, containing 827274 characters, 156270 words, 1533 smileys, and 688 frowns; 470 of those messages were ACTIONs. There have been 974 joins, 81 parts, 873 quits, 5 kicks, 36 mode changes, and 4 topic changes.
[15:17:34] <paul_c> not bad...
[15:48:47] <paul_c> sommat in CVS is well screwed...
[16:03:49] <Martzis> Hello all
[16:05:00] <Martzis> I am using BDI 4.23 and Jon Elsons Universal Stepper Controller and I have a problem
[16:05:33] <Martzis> I am getting an error when I am trying to muve some axis:
[16:05:37] <paul_c> It doesn't work...
[16:05:38] <Martzis> Issuing EMC_AXIS_JOG -- (+124,+24, +9, +0,0.750000,)
[16:05:38] <Martzis> Issuing EMC_AXIS_ABORT -- (+120,+16, +10, +0,)
[16:05:38] <Martzis> axis 0 following error
[16:05:39] <Martzis> bridgeporttaskintf.cc 1020: Error on axis 0.
[16:05:39] <Martzis> Issuing EMC_TASK_PLAN_SYNCH -- (+516,+12, +0,)
[16:05:40] <Martzis> emcTaskPlanSynch() returned 0
[16:06:26] <paul_c> Heard the same from Tim Smith on the user's list this morning...
[16:06:45] <Martzis> Ok
[16:07:01] <Martzis> What version I should use?
[16:08:01] <paul_c> If you want the current stable Debian base, BDI-4.23 or later.
[16:09:23] <paul_c> if you are happy with an out of date Debian base along with a broken package management system, then BDI-Live with Jon Elson's hacks
[16:09:56] <paul_c> the alternative is a vintage BDI-2.20 that doesn't get any support.
[16:10:24] <Martzis> I would like to use 4.23 but I also would like to have my USC board working
[16:12:10] <paul_c> In that case, you need to badger Jon Elson... I can only do som much without having the hardware to test on.
[16:13:16] <paul_c> unless you know C...
[16:16:39] <Martzis> I think I do not have enough experience in C
[16:18:27] <Martzis> Do you have any idea what is wrong? I could try to trace the problem.
[16:19:42] <paul_c> It sounds like a bit within the USC is not being set, so it is going to be a software issue rather than hardware.
[16:20:39] <paul_c> Do you subscribe to the emc-users or emc-developers list ?
[16:22:36] <Martzis> I have been watching only the archives. Perhaps I should subscibe.
[16:24:13] <paul_c> Yes - Then you can ask Jon why he doesn't use IRC & bug him about his drivers.
[16:27:42] <dmess> bluetooth wirless connection to a phone running a whoppin 4.5 kBps
[16:30:31] <Martzis> I just subscribed my self to both email lists.
[16:31:06] <paul_c> ug, another gmail.com addy
[16:33:37] <cradek> gmail is better than the other free web-based mail services.
[16:34:03] <Jymmm> Except no folders =(
[16:34:23] <cradek> it has something that is nearly functionally equivalent
[16:34:57] <Jymmm> I dont care for it. I like to get crap out of my way - thus folders.
[16:35:30] <Jymmm> I use gmail, I just dont like not having folders.
[16:35:41] <cradek> well I don't use it either, but some people want web-based email (?) and it seems like a good solution for them
[16:36:12] <cradek> s/either//
[16:40:05] <Jymmm> I have a few gmail acnts, but I would prefer folders and tell them that. anyhow....
[16:40:09] <Jymmm> how goes it?
[16:42:04] <cradek> oh fine - nice to have a long weekend
[16:43:11] <Jymmm> heh, untill you said that I forgot all about a holiday coming up. Sometimes I wish places stayed open on holidays, then I cold get some work done.
[16:46:11] <cradek> but a holiday where everyone but Jymmm has to work would not be a holiday
[16:46:33] <Jymmm> lol
[16:46:53] <paul_c> True, that would just make Jymmm a lazy bum.
[16:47:08] <Jymmm> paul_c: Hey, I resemble that!
[16:47:37] <Jymmm> oh, under mach2 I was able to get a solid 90IPM
[16:48:29] <paul_c> on a 366MHz Celeron ?
[16:48:47] <Jymmm> On Fuji... P4 2.8GHz
[16:49:21] <paul_c> Install Linux on that, and we will probably get a similar speed out of EMC
[16:50:06] <Jymmm> oh hell no... I might consider that but you said I had to keep /boot on a seperate partion
[16:50:22] <paul_c> no I didn't
[16:50:40] <Jymmm> m$, / + /boot, /swap
[16:50:47] <Jymmm> and you said no!
[16:51:36] <paul_c> Just /boot, /, & swap - Don't need an NTFS or FAT32 fs on it.
[16:52:01] <Jymmm> The hell I don't!
[16:52:09] <paul_c> /boot and / can be combined....
[16:52:24] <Jymmm> ok, on a serious note....
[16:53:28] <Jymmm> I had installed W98, then tried to install emc on the other laptop. When install was complete grub wasn't able to rewrite the MBR and wouldn't boot up. On the cd I didnt see any recovery mode. any suggestions?
[16:53:31] <paul_c> <serious hat on> Lunux can be run in a single partition with or without a swap (as long as you have plenty of memory. </>
[16:54:40] <paul_c> grub shoud have been able to write the MBR....
[16:54:45] <cradek> linux kernel has been able to swap to a file for a long time
[16:55:19] <Martzis> I am having 384Mb of ram on my EMC machine. Is that enough or do I need to have tha swap partition?
[16:55:31] <Jymmm> Yes, it should have, but it didn't. So I rebooted off the cd and looked for a recovery mode but I didn't see one.
[16:55:32] <paul_c> sure. Swap can be a prtition, a file, or even memory.
[16:56:55] <cradek> all machine should have some swap. Then when something goes wrong you say "why is my machine swapping?" instead of "why are my processes dying?"
[16:57:24] <cradek> reasonable ulimits can't hurt either
[16:58:31] <paul_c> Jymmm: At the boot prompt on the CD, try "linux append=rescue"
[17:00:08] <Martzis> paul_c: Would you like to use my EMC machine to debug the USC problem? I have USC board attached to it and the machine have Internet connection with public IP.
[17:00:24] <Martzis> Or someone else?
[17:01:04] <Jymmm> paul_c: I'll try it on a P3 733 I have with a 810 chipset. Jim no like mucking with Fuji... Nice and stable.
[17:02:09] <paul_c> can you try installing in expert mode and use the noprobe option..
[17:03:00] <paul_c> Martzis: It is a tempting offer...
[17:03:24] <Jymmm> USC problem?
[17:03:50] <paul_c> how did you guess.
[17:04:44] <Jymmm> I thought anon resolve the problems he was having mostly by shitching the BIOS LPT settings
[17:04:46] <gezr> les : are you here?
[17:04:58] <Jymmm> switching
[17:05:18] <paul_c> waho... where did gezr spring from..
[17:05:27] <gezr> ive just been watching
[17:05:44] <Jymmm> * Jymmm shows paul_c the rock that gezr was udner
[17:05:51] <paul_c> Jymmm: You take the left, I'll take the right eye.
[17:06:04] <Martzis> The communication with Universal Stepper COntroller board seems to work bacause I can turn the spindle on and off and it will alse read the estop button status.
[17:06:07] <gezr> * gezr is blinded
[17:06:28] <Jymmm> gezr PH! WISE GUY EH?! YUK YUK YUK
[17:06:32] <Jymmm> OH
[17:06:42] <gezr> Jymmm : hey, I try :)
[17:06:51] <paul_c> It's a driver problem rather than hardware or wiring with this USC
[17:07:22] <Jymmm> Well, why doesn't Jon, get his butt in here
[17:07:53] <paul_c> idunno.
[17:08:10] <gezr> does it matter if the parallel port is enabled via the kernel, instead of used as a module? that would remove the module loading and such?
[17:08:11] <Martzis> Jon said to me in email that he will be travelling for few weeks
[17:08:42] <Jymmm> I've always felt that it should be the HW mfg that should resolve any driver issues.
[17:08:44] <gezr> but then again, no module and no kernel support would be the best situation alltogether right?
[17:09:20] <paul_c> Jymmm: Ditto.
[17:10:53] <paul_c> but J.E. reckon's it's my fault that, despite being told not to use i810 MoBos, the BDI-4.xx won't load on to a pile of Dell junkers he picked up cheap.
[17:10:55] <gezr> oh, my friend has his hurco milling machine running mach2 right now
[17:11:18] <gezr> he used zylotex modules for it, and some vfd drive for the spindle
[17:11:34] <gezr> ill build an emc box to take down to him to try it out, he isnt very computer savy at all
[17:11:46] <paul_c> didn't think Hurco made a machine that small...
[17:11:54] <gezr> its not a small one :)
[17:12:12] <Jymmm> I liked the feature set of Jon's board, except for the fact it's proprietary. I no longer do proprietary in any way, shape, or form.
[17:12:22] <gezr> it doenst have a tool changer, its the manual change model, but its a sturdy machine
[17:14:36] <Jymmm> paul_c: which one of those parallel I/O cards would you suggest? That one company is only 45 minutes up the road from me.
[17:17:44] <paul_c> 4134M-2
[17:18:05] <mshaver> robin_sz: I got an RCM-3700 Dev Kit & am waiting for hardware from Mariss
[17:18:32] <robin_sz> mshaver: kewl. they are nice little boards the rabbits ..
[17:18:36] <steve_stallings> Hey, Matt is awake!!!
[17:18:52] <robin_sz> mshaver: grabbed the source from sourceforge yet?
[17:19:17] <paul_c> steve_stallings: But no skype, so we can't bug him verbally.
[17:19:42] <steve_stallings> It is a local call for me, whadda you wanna me to say?
[17:20:15] <robin_sz> I was in NYC all week, I could have waved.
[17:20:16] <paul_c> Martzis: Suggestion: Set up a box with a full install, and may be we can have a look at the driver sometime.
[17:20:52] <gezr> you guys are on skype?
[17:21:24] <mshaver> * mshaver is somewhat awake...
[17:22:33] <mshaver> robin_sz: I did a CVS update a while back, but I'll keep current as soon as I get the G101/102 from Mariss. Right now I need the Gxxx to power the Rabbit module so I can load code
[17:23:11] <robin_sz> right, I havent put anyting new into CVS in ages
[17:23:22] <paul_c> LawrenceG, les, alex_joni, Jacky^, Jymmm, mshaver, & me.
[17:23:41] <Martzis> paul_c: Ok, I have almost complete install at the moment, but the hd is quite full. I will install bigger harddisk perhaps tomorrow.
[17:23:42] <gezr> I was talking about teamspeak 2 years ago
[17:23:54] <gezr> paul_c : maybe sometime ill join the conversation
[17:24:12] <gezr> ive ran, teamspeak, and ventrillo
[17:24:13] <paul_c> Martzis: 4-6Gig is plenty.
[17:25:24] <paul_c> Martzis: 4-6Gig is plenty.
[17:25:54] <Martzis> Yes, the current hd is less than 2
[17:27:48] <paul_c> what speed the CPU & how much memory ?
[17:28:27] <Martzis> 800MHz P3 & 384Mb
[17:29:30] <paul_c> plenty fast enough.
[17:29:34] <Martzis> I had to use small hd bacause it was my only parallel ata drive (Machine does not have sata controller).
[17:30:17] <paul_c> BDI-4.xx doesn't support (or isn't tested) on sata drives.
[17:30:43] <paul_c> it might work, but no promises.
[17:31:50] <Martzis> I noticed that with my other PC. Atleast VIA's sata chipset does not work. I have not tried with my SHuttle which uses Intels integrated Sata.
[17:33:18] <paul_c> you want to try and avoid anything with integrated video that shares main memory.
[17:37:15] <Jymmm> paul_c: oh hell man.... Like I know how to program a FPGA, much less anything else!
[17:37:18] <Martzis> It has integrated video controller but i think that it does not use ram
[17:38:19] <paul_c> Jymmm: well... send it to me for programming.
[17:38:36] <Jymmm> paul_c: If I did that, I'll never see it again!
[17:38:57] <paul_c> sure you would.. I can set up a web cam for you..
[17:39:02] <Jymmm> lol
[17:43:19] <paul_c> Jymmm: didya download that iso ?
[17:46:55] <Martzis> paul_c: Could you send me some email. I will reply to that with ip & u/p to my EMC machine tomorrow. My address is
[email protected]
[17:47:23] <Jymmm> paul_c: wasn't done uploading when I went to sleep last night.
[17:49:38] <Jymmm> paul_c: Got MD5?
[17:49:55] <paul_c> Martzis: Meet anonimasu - He is from your neck of the woods...
[17:51:16] <paul_c> burn a beer mat, and then use "linux mediacheck" @ the first boot screen.
[17:51:51] <Jymmm> Md5 is to PREVENT making coasters!
[17:52:10] <robin_sz> mshaver: I presume your intention is to write a driver for emc, using ethernet to talk to the G200x?
[17:55:35] <mshaver> robin_sz: Basically, yes.
[17:55:46] <robin_sz> mshaver: as am emc2 HAL module?
[17:55:54] <paul_c> Jymmm: In a bit, I'll have your beta-bitch.sum
[17:56:17] <mshaver> robin_sz: I just looked at Sourceforge - Is there a CVS, or is the alpha3 file the latest code?
[17:56:40] <robin_sz> alpha3 is the code steve released
[17:56:51] <robin_sz> HEAD is however badly I have screwed with it
[17:57:35] <robin_sz> basically, You'll not really need much of it at all
[17:58:01] <robin_sz> al you are going to do is write the velocity word to the step gen at interupt rate
[17:58:21] <mshaver> robin_sz: It depends: If we take advantage of the real time capabilities of the g-rex, then the likely path is EMC(top end)->NML->G-REX
[17:58:50] <mshaver> robin_sz: So, there is a CVS? I didn't see it linked from the project page
[17:59:28] <robin_sz> ahh, yes, wait, I'll re-enable it .. I removed the link while SF deleted a zworld file I accidentally included :)
[18:00:29] <mshaver> robin_sz: If we use it as a "dumb box", then it would be a HAL module - But at the moment I'm inclined to take the path of least work!
[18:01:14] <robin_sz> so you would basically have the interpreter on the PC, and push motion commands down to tthe grex?
[18:03:16] <robin_sz> OK, cvs link re-enabled
[18:03:21] <mshaver> robin_sz: yep - We could then do a Windows version of the EMC - not that it would be the "real" EMC without real time
[18:03:56] <robin_sz> for many people, that would not be an issue
[18:04:24] <robin_sz> it would also make a linux version of emc simple too
[18:04:30] <robin_sz> without the real-time part ..
[18:04:38] <robin_sz> just a static app and a g-rex
[18:05:00] <robin_sz> people could upgrade to the "real emc" after getting a taste for it
[18:05:39] <mshaver> yes, it's kind of neutered though... Real real time is somewhat our claim to fame - But yes, it would be a good introduction into what's possible!
[18:06:10] <robin_sz> whatever, Windows ability, no matter how loathesome, would increase the potential userbase by an order of magnitude
[18:06:52] <paul_c> Jymmm: md5 sum posted.
[18:07:02] <Jymmm> k
[18:07:02] <robin_sz> and there still is real time, its just not on the PC anymore ...
[18:07:43] <mshaver> I'll admit that I have greatly underestimated the "appeal" of a Windows program - I personally use Linux for everything (desktop, etc), but I suppose I really am in the minority...
[18:08:11] <robin_sz> mshaver: so basically, you'd dump the G200X gui, delete the emc interp from the rabbit, and replace interp bits with an NML interface ...
[18:10:09] <mshaver> I haven't looked at your GUI yet, so I wouldn't say that - or really any of that - I want to see what you guys have done & take maximum advantage of it - I didn't know that the interp was in the Rabbit - I'd have to think about the implications of that...
[18:11:23] <mshaver> but, yes, what you said is a possible course of action to be sure - I guess I want to use Rabbit CPU cycles for things best done by the Rabbit & PC CPU cycles...
[18:13:18] <mshaver> with respect to the interp on the rabbit, I guess it depends upon whether all the i/o for your application is on the g-rex, if so then putting everything on the rabbit makes sense.
[18:14:11] <mshaver> when it's all in front of me, I'll form an opinion ;)
[18:14:41] <robin_sz> mshaver: well, the gui compiles for Linux or doze .. I cross-compile the doze variant on Linux :)
[18:15:16] <robin_sz> for my app, all the IO is on the Grex, so I just go that way ..path of least resistance
[18:15:48] <robin_sz> its 99% steves work, I've just been bug-hunting and making mods for my plasma stuff
[18:16:22] <mshaver> gotta go for a while - I'll update my G200X CVS in a bit - cross compile eh? I'll look closely at that! - too bad there's not a MODBUS output on the G-REX to make it expandable ;)
[18:16:35] <robin_sz> heh
[18:16:44] <robin_sz> well . .theres spare stuff on there for sure
[18:16:47] <mshaver> So, Steve's version IS what's on Sourceforge?
[18:17:05] <robin_sz> steves original code is tagged alpha_3
[18:17:18] <robin_sz> I loaded some stuff to head
[18:17:31] <robin_sz> I should commit some more stuff I guess
[18:17:57] <robin_sz> but not exactly many people have show interest until now :)
[18:18:42] <mshaver> well, no hardware, no interest...
[18:18:47] <robin_sz> yeah
[18:19:11] <robin_sz> loaded dynamic C yet?
[18:19:29] <mshaver> But, Steve hasn't gone on and developed any more code that's not on Sourceforge?
[18:19:56] <robin_sz> mmm, not that hes released to me .. I think hes been rafted with work
[18:20:13] <mshaver> Not yet (Dyn C), I've actually got to load up Windows on a box first ;)
[18:20:17] <robin_sz> the latest version is VERY interesting of the FPGA
[18:20:23] <robin_sz> with the embedded processor
[18:20:40] <AchiestDragon> :) well better with a shorter z hight :)
http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/cncz7.jpg
[18:20:47] <robin_sz> that I suspect is interwovem with his "unstallable stepper" stuff
[18:20:53] <mshaver> The White Heat stuff - just got the manual yesterday...
[18:21:08] <mshaver> I've got to sit down and read it
[18:21:19] <robin_sz> yeah
[18:21:36] <robin_sz> AchiestDragon: that looks better .. does it feel more solid?
[18:21:47] <AchiestDragon> yes
[18:21:52] <robin_sz> good
[18:22:06] <mshaver> well, gotta go & do some work in the shop - patching & painting some doors for a rowhouse I want to sell in Baltimore...
[18:22:13] <mshaver> mshaver is now known as mshaver_away
[18:22:14] <robin_sz> 'k
[18:22:32] <robin_sz> AchiestDragon: did the Grolsch help?
[18:22:41] <AchiestDragon> yes
[18:22:44] <AchiestDragon> :)
[18:22:59] <AchiestDragon> think i found some steppers also
[18:23:30] <robin_sz> ahh good
[18:24:10] <robin_sz> I just spotted the allthread that goes under the machine ... that must help with stability a lot
[18:24:22] <AchiestDragon> 220Ncm
[18:24:46] <robin_sz> 2.2Nm
[18:24:55] <robin_sz> sound ideal
[18:25:00] <AchiestDragon> £39.50 each new
[18:25:03] <robin_sz> volt drop?
[18:25:27] <AchiestDragon> 7.5v at 2.5a per phase
[18:25:44] <robin_sz> a bit high ... but not too bad
[18:26:04] <robin_sz> high drop *usually* means high inductance too
[18:26:10] <robin_sz> and that means slow speeds
[18:26:24] <AchiestDragon> thinking 70v at 8A should drive 3 of them ok
[18:26:38] <robin_sz> 8A?
[18:27:17] <AchiestDragon> 3 * 2.5A = 7.5A so allow a bit for spare and 8A fits ok
[18:27:26] <robin_sz> 5A for 3 drives will be mroe than enough ... infact, I bet you dotn ever pull more than 2A in normal circumastances
[18:27:36] <robin_sz> typically less than 1A even ..
[18:27:49] <robin_sz> remember ..
[18:28:00] <robin_sz> 7.5V @ 2.5A to the motor ...
[18:28:03] <robin_sz> so ...
[18:28:17] <robin_sz> 70V and ~250Ma into the drive
[18:28:20] <robin_sz> at standstill
[18:28:40] <robin_sz> at speed, under loadm the current draw goes up
[18:28:58] <AchiestDragon> i like to over rate powersupplys it makes them mor relayable in the long run
[18:29:39] <robin_sz> well, sure
[18:29:40] <AchiestDragon> if i need 1A at 12v i will use a psu capable of 2A
[18:30:17] <robin_sz> basically, I reckon you'll typically only pull 2A in normal operation
[18:30:30] <robin_sz> build a 4A to 5A supply
[18:31:13] <Jacky^> hi
[18:31:33] <robin_sz> the recommendation is to use a supply capable of 2/3rds of rated motor current .. in reallity, thats overkill for most people
[18:31:44] <AchiestDragon> farnells do a 7.5a 35-0 35-0 transformere it can be wired to give 70 - 0V out no problems
[18:31:58] <robin_sz> ummm .. how?
[18:31:59] <Jacky^> X axis motor losted steps.. 2 jobs aborted grrr..
[18:32:49] <robin_sz> AchiestDragon: 0-35 in series with 0-35 gives 70V ac ...
[18:32:58] <robin_sz> rectified thats around 100V dc
[18:33:12] <AchiestDragon> yes
[18:33:28] <robin_sz> 100V dc is about 30V greater than 70v ...
[18:34:07] <AchiestDragon> was planning on regulating it
[18:34:12] <robin_sz> no
[18:34:17] <robin_sz> dont do that
[18:34:36] <Jacky^> right
[18:34:39] <robin_sz> the drives are switch-mode self regulating
[18:35:11] <robin_sz> they prefer a normal linear supply
[18:35:19] <AchiestDragon> k
[18:35:39] <AchiestDragon> so 50v transformer output
[18:35:49] <robin_sz> 25-0 + 25-0
[18:35:58] <Jacky^> robin_sz: what if i can turn my steppers with hands ?
[18:36:18] <robin_sz> Jacky^: what driver you use?
[18:36:22] <robin_sz> Jacky^: gecko?
[18:36:28] <robin_sz> Jacky^: or 297?
[18:36:28] <Jacky^> l297-298
[18:36:53] <robin_sz> right ... so that has no curent reduction do that is full torque .. so that is what torque you have ...
[18:37:31] <Jacky^> it have current regulator..a trimmer
[18:37:45] <AchiestDragon> powerd or unpowerd , unpowered yes , but if the driver is enabled and powered then you should get at least the holding torque as risistance
[18:38:09] <Jacky^> I tried any value, from 0 to 2 amp..
[18:38:23] <robin_sz> Jacky^: what is the recommended value for the motor?
[18:38:35] <Jacky^> ampere ?
[18:38:39] <robin_sz> 2A?
[18:38:51] <Jacky^> motors should have 2.1 A /phase
[18:38:57] <Jacky^> 90 oz in
[18:39:02] <robin_sz> well, turn it all the way up to 2 amp then
[18:39:05] <Jacky^> if is true ..
[18:40:08] <Jacky^> robin_sz: i'm using half winding , as we talked week ago.. it work better for me
[18:40:13] <robin_sz> right
[18:40:27] <Jacky^> current should be half, for what i know..
[18:40:31] <robin_sz> well, less torque at low speed with half winding, but more at high speeds
[18:40:36] <Jacky^> yeah
[18:40:46] <robin_sz> correct .. use same current
[18:40:59] <robin_sz> in theory you can use more current
[18:41:10] <robin_sz> (lower resistance = lower heating)
[18:41:15] <Jacky^> to get more torque ?
[18:41:27] <robin_sz> but your drive only has 2A anyway
[18:41:35] <robin_sz> yes, more current = more torque
[18:41:59] <Jacky^> i can't understand why motor lost step ..
[18:42:01] <Jacky^> :(
[18:42:58] <robin_sz> well
[18:43:05] <robin_sz> go slower
[18:43:11] <robin_sz> or reduce friction
[18:43:34] <Jacky^> the strange thing , it seem to lost steps also in slow speed ..
[18:43:35] <robin_sz> check your pulse system .. it could be an electroic problem .. ground loops etc
[18:44:07] <robin_sz> use lower acceleration too
[18:45:08] <Jacky^> is there a way to know how much inch/min my machine is going ?
[18:45:42] <Jymmm> stopwatch and a ruler
[18:46:14] <robin_sz> Jacky^: sure ... the control will tell you
[18:46:36] <Jacky^> the gui show 27 max speed
[18:46:44] <robin_sz> 27 ipm then
[18:46:49] <Jacky^> this mean 27 inch/min ?
[18:47:04] <robin_sz> yes, if the machine is set up in inches
[18:47:12] <Jacky^> no input scale need to be calculated ?
[18:47:23] <Jacky^> yeah, machine work in inches
[18:47:26] <robin_sz> nope
[18:47:30] <Jacky^> ok..
[18:47:32] <robin_sz> so .. its 27 ipm
[18:47:55] <Jacky^> accell. is 2 at the moemnt
[18:48:07] <Jacky^> for all axis
[18:48:30] <robin_sz> so ..
[18:48:40] <robin_sz> thats 2 inches per second per second
[18:48:47] <Jacky^> too fast ?
[18:48:49] <robin_sz> so it is at max speed in 0.25seconds
[18:49:03] <robin_sz> try redcuing it .. see fi it helps
[18:49:14] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[18:49:18] <robin_sz> EMC used to have problems at low accels
[18:49:33] <robin_sz> the recent bugfixes might have helped with that
[18:49:39] <Jacky^> thanks, i will try..
[18:49:53] <robin_sz> ok .. oiff to the unit .. see you later
[18:50:01] <Jacky^> robin_sz: bye
[19:00:08] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, why's she evil? she just is.
[20:25:33] <dmess> SHE's all are ALPHA...
[21:24:21] <logger_aj> * logger_aj is already logging
[21:27:58] <Imperator_> logger_aj, bookmark
[21:27:58] <Imperator_> See
http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2005-09-04#T21-27-58
[21:56:33] <Jacky^> anyone know if is possible to buy geckodrive in europe ?
[22:02:02] <paul_c> there was a place in England, but not seen or heard from the guy in over a year now...
[22:02:53] <Jacky^> paul_c: are they full emc compatible ?
[22:02:54] <paul_c> Gecko will ship to Europe, and with the US $ being pretty worthless at the moment, they would be cheaper.
[22:03:21] <paul_c> I've not had any problems with the three I use.
[22:03:26] <Jacky^> i'm tired to play with
[22:03:34] <Jacky^> l297-8
[22:03:55] <Jacky^> i will send some email to ask..
[22:04:17] <Jacky^> i hope 220V already exist ..
[22:04:25] <Jacky^> version*
[22:04:41] <paul_c> nope - 80V DC max
[22:04:51] <Jacky^> ah well.. better
[22:05:05] <Jacky^> i was mean PS included ..
[22:05:19] <Jacky^> np, then
[22:05:48] <paul_c> No, they are just the drives - You have to supply power supply, heatsink, and wires
[22:06:09] <Jacky^> that's ok, nice
[22:06:25] <paul_c> you have a 24V transformer ?
[22:06:44] <Jacky^> 24-0-24 8 A
[22:07:15] <paul_c> what ratings on the stepper motors ?
[22:07:29] <Jacky^> about 80 Volts
[22:07:43] <Jacky^> 2.1 A/phase
[22:08:02] <Jacky^> but i'm thinking to buy 3 nema34
[22:08:07] <paul_c> Do you know the resistance ?
[22:08:19] <Jacky^> 1.1 ohm
[22:08:47] <paul_c> 2.3V nominal...
[22:09:21] <paul_c> 48V AC *sqrt(2) = 67.8V DC
[22:09:42] <paul_c> 2.3V * 25 = 57.75V (max)
[22:10:01] <paul_c> Your power suplly might be a bit too much...
[22:10:45] <Jacky^> at the moemnt is about 32 V output
[22:10:53] <Jacky^> with L297
[22:11:15] <paul_c> 24 * sqrt(2) = 34V DC might be better to start with.... (less diode voltage drop)
[22:12:06] <paul_c> Run the geckos at 32V and see how you get on... I don't think you would need much more than that...
[22:12:25] <paul_c> but you have the option..
[22:12:48] <Jacky^> paul_c: the motors..
[22:13:01] <Jacky^> i'm not sure about steppers
[22:13:39] <Jacky^> these im using seem to have low torque..
[22:13:50] <Jacky^> datasheet say 90 oz in
[22:14:15] <Jacky^> bah ..
[22:15:21] <Jacky^> i don't know if to buy only the drivers
[22:15:26] <Jacky^> or motors too ..
[22:20:26] <paul_c> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264656&page=3 <- Usefull thread..
[22:20:56] <Jacky^> paul_c: :)
[22:21:57] <Yuga> hey all
[22:22:23] <AchiestDragon> :) well finaly got the live cd to work
[22:22:40] <Jacky^> hi Yuga
[22:25:11] <paul_c> AchiestDragon: It is about as easy as it can be made...
[22:25:55] <AchiestDragon> hmm
[22:26:52] <paul_c> bung it. boot from CD.
[22:27:12] <paul_c> how much easier can it get ?
[22:28:08] <AchiestDragon> actualy it looks ok , but looks like i'm going to have alot of feature requests to file
[22:28:33] <Jymmm> AchiestDragon As long as they ALL fit in 2KB, you can have them.
[22:29:24] <paul_c> Befire you mail the developer(s) over feature/bug reports for Live...
[22:29:37] <AchiestDragon> k
[22:29:39] <paul_c> check to see if it is still maintained.
[22:30:59] <AchiestDragon> so what new features does the current version bdi4.2X have that this misses out
[22:31:46] <paul_c> BDI-4 is not a live CD for starters...
[22:31:48] <AchiestDragon> configuration options to suport diferent paralell port pin usage ?
[22:31:48] <Jymmm> Well, this kinda stinks... One case I have has the room for a 24V PS and xylotex board, but not the cooling. The other case has the cooling but really limited on space.
[22:31:58] <Jymmm> AchiestDragon emc2
[22:32:08] <AchiestDragon> yes emc2
[22:32:26] <Jymmm> emc2 == cvs only (afaik)
[22:32:29] <AchiestDragon> i know its not live cd
[22:32:47] <paul_c> No. emc2 HEAD is not for BDI-4
[22:32:57] <AchiestDragon> k
[22:33:15] <Jymmm> AchiestDragon So HA! you can't have it! neerer neerer neerer neerer
[22:33:33] <paul_c> there is always src
[22:34:14] <AchiestDragon> :) well could put it on this pc , but by the looks going to set up a machine just for it
[22:37:13] <AchiestDragon> could of used the qt gui framework would look better in kde that way
[22:37:31] <paul_c> Use the Live CD to get a feel for it - Mail the user/dev lists for feature requests for EMC only.
[22:38:16] <paul_c> * paul_c hands AchiestDragon the Qt development libraries F.O.C.
[22:38:38] <AchiestDragon> already got them
[22:39:17] <paul_c> you do Qt programming ?
[22:39:28] <AchiestDragon> although qt4 is a bit of a pain at the moment
[22:40:31] <Jymmm> I thought Qt == $$$
[22:40:34] <Jymmm> ?
[22:40:38] <AchiestDragon> well was starting to learn , but as kde is switching from qt3 to 4 and qt4 dosent look quite ready yet i'm sort of on hold
[22:41:02] <AchiestDragon> qt is free if your using it for gnu applications
[22:41:47] <Jymmm> ah
[23:06:11] <paul_c> Jymmm: *slap, slap, soggy slap"
[23:06:31] <Jymmm> lol
[23:07:35] <Jacky^> :D
[23:07:44] <Jacky^> Jymmm: my friend :P
[23:08:42] <Jymmm> hi Jacky^
[23:09:05] <Jacky^> Jymmm: i decided to buy 3 gecko
[23:09:19] <Jacky^> and motors too ..
[23:09:37] <Jacky^> what about this page ?
http://www.homeshopcnc.com/page3.html
[23:09:56] <Jacky^> i like 640 oz/in Model # RHT34-640: $110
[23:10:19] <Jacky^> it seem to me a nice price
[23:10:26] <Jacky^> and good motor ..
[23:10:36] <Jymmm> NEMA34? what you driving with it?
[23:10:49] <Jacky^> geckodrive
[23:10:52] <Jacky^> not ?
[23:10:57] <Jymmm> no I mean machien wise
[23:11:49] <Jacky^> Jymmm: i want to build a 'small' machine 1x1 mt
[23:12:09] <Jacky^> for wood only
[23:12:14] <Jymmm> Jacky^: ah, ok.
[23:13:06] <Jacky^> 1200 oz/in Model should be nice too ..
[23:13:16] <Jacky^> maybe too strong for what i need
[23:14:43] <Jacky^> Please email us for shipping fees for orders going outside the Continental USA. Thank you!
[23:14:48] <Jacky^> uhm..
[23:15:10] <Jacky^> iv'e no credit card to use with paypal ..
[23:15:15] <Jacky^> i will ask
[23:15:55] <AchiestDragon> if you set up a paypal account it will let you transfer from your bank
[23:16:13] <Jacky^> ah.. nice
[23:16:32] <Jymmm> it's scarry giving paypal full access to your bank account.
[23:16:47] <AchiestDragon> you will need to go through the verification , and it takes a week to sort out
[23:16:50] <Jymmm> I personally would setup a seperate bank acnt.
[23:17:10] <Jymmm> Jacky^ you can use a check card if you have one.
[23:17:31] <Jacky^> I don't know what you mean as 'check card'
[23:17:38] <Jacky^> i've bancomat ..
[23:17:55] <Jacky^> Topcash bnl
[23:17:59] <AchiestDragon> can always post them a cheque with the order printed out
[23:18:02] <Jymmm> Jacky^ It's like a ATM card
[23:18:16] <Jacky^> Cirrus, FastPay,Bancomat,PagoBancomat
[23:18:31] <Jacky^> Jymmm: never eard here..
[23:19:14] <paul_c> visa or mastercard
[23:19:30] <Jacky^> :( no visa..
[23:19:49] <AchiestDragon> switch / solo card
[23:20:09] <Jacky^> i could ask for a credit card ..
[23:20:11] <paul_c> Go to the local post office and ask for an International Money Order
[23:20:20] <Jacky^> proably 3-4 week .. of time
[23:21:08] <paul_c> or ask Jymmm to mail you a set as a gift..
[23:21:14] <Jacky^> paul_c: hehe
[23:21:18] <Jacky^> great :)
[23:21:39] <AchiestDragon> if you write a cheque with the ammount in the currency thay want , you will be charged at the excange rate to your currency at the time its cashed
[23:21:42] <Jacky^> from postal service should be ok
[23:22:12] <paul_c> AchiestDragon: The banks both ends will charge a bomb for it
[23:22:42] <AchiestDragon> postal orders then
[23:22:58] <paul_c> yup - IMO.
[23:24:33] <Jacky^> paul_c: what you think about nema34 steppers ?
[23:25:03] <AchiestDragon> one of the reasons i got a credit card , makes buying things globlay easy
[23:25:19] <paul_c> never used nema34 - 23 or proper servos
[23:25:43] <Jacky^> i can also afford 1200 oz/in Model
[23:25:58] <Jacky^> + 30 $ difference ..
[23:26:06] <Jacky^> better ?
[23:26:31] <AchiestDragon> anyware in europe stock them
[23:26:31] <Jacky^> 30 $ each
[23:26:57] <Jacky^> AchiestDragon: also the drivers ? O_O
[23:28:11] <Jacky^> I need the drivers, so ..
[23:28:12] <AchiestDragon> you need to check shiping costs , may work out cheaper to get same steppers from europe and the controls from there
[23:28:39] <Jacky^> uhm..
[23:28:53] <paul_c> don't forget import duties.
[23:29:35] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ sighs
[23:30:12] <paul_c> It can get expensive...
[23:30:30] <AchiestDragon> shipping for the fet3 econo system form stepper world was $41 to the UK from the US and that was only about 2kg
[23:30:31] <Jacky^> i'm try to calculate it..
[23:30:41] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ umpf..
[23:31:02] <Jacky^> G201 $114.00 IF PURCHASED WITHOUT A MOTOR.
[23:31:23] <Jacky^> $109.00IF PURCHASED WITH A MOTOR...
[23:31:29] <AchiestDragon> and the weight of the steppers
[23:31:44] <paul_c> which site is that ?
[23:31:56] <Jacky^> paul_c:
http://www.homeshopcnc.com/page3.html
[23:32:37] <Jacky^> Weight (kg) 3.8 for 1200 oz/in Model
[23:33:41] <Jacky^> they say are now stocking in larger quantities..
[23:35:54] <AchiestDragon> ouch ,, for 3 steppers (12kg including packaging ) from the uk to the usa would be £90.15 and 5 to 8 days delivery time
[23:36:41] <AchiestDragon> or £101.35 if you want it in 2 to 3 days
[23:36:48] <Jacky^> AchiestDragon: how much in euro ?
[23:37:35] <AchiestDragon> UK£ 101.35 = 148.642351 Euro
[23:37:44] <Jacky^> ouch :\
[23:38:21] <AchiestDragon> chepest is £68.75 but its 28 to 30 days dilivery time
[23:38:33] <Jacky^> nah ..
[23:38:45] <Jacky^> i could forget :\
[23:39:04] <Jacky^> 7-10 gg can be ok
[23:40:28] <Jacky^> i eard geckodrive made some driver for servos
[23:40:39] <paul_c> No physical address... but a whois suggests Mission Hills, Ca.
[23:41:03] <Jacky^> working with clock-direction pins
[23:41:10] <Jacky^> it's true ?
[23:41:35] <paul_c> G320 & G340 drivers
[23:41:59] <paul_c> but you need servo motors with encoders attached.
[23:42:26] <Jacky^> what if i use some dc motor with homebuild encoder ?
[23:42:56] <Jacky^> waiting to buy a good servomotors..
[23:43:48] <Jacky^> i don't want to stay paused a lot of mounths :(
[23:44:05] <paul_c> http://www.usdigital.com/products/e4p/
[23:46:16] <Jacky^> paul_c: nice.. right prices too
[23:46:55] <paul_c> $90 shipping charge to Europe.
[23:47:38] <Jacky^> yeah.. thats ok
[23:48:06] <AchiestDragon> i found it cheaper on shiping from hongkong than the US
[23:48:53] <AchiestDragon> especialy when the steppers are made in that region
[23:49:20] <Jacky^> AchiestDragon: nice ..
[23:49:30] <Jacky^> i want to look at MAE too
[23:49:46] <Jacky^> that near to me ..
[23:50:58] <AchiestDragon> the steppers will probalbay be cheeper if ordered from the manufactures there if you know the manufacturer of the steper contact them , if thay wont handle small orders thay will probalbay be able to tell you a distributer that stocks them local
[23:52:06] <Jacky^> probably
[23:52:37] <AchiestDragon> and in some cases you may find thay do other types that may be sutable also
[23:53:18] <AchiestDragon> if your realy lucky you may be able to request free samples
[23:53:37] <Jacky^> uhm ..
[23:54:03] <Jacky^> very hard
