#emc | Logs for 2005-10-09

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[01:39:31] <K`zan> cradek: geko site is back up, just fyi
[01:51:20] <Jacky^> hello :)
[01:52:12] <K`zan> Hi there, trying to sort out the best / least expensive controller :-).
[01:52:29] <Jacky^> hehe ..
[01:52:38] <Jacky^> servos ?
[01:53:05] <K`zan> Steppers
[01:53:34] <K`zan> Gekko stuff is a per axis from the looks of it. 4 axis =-= 4 controllers
[01:53:41] <Jacky^> about commercial products, gecko seem the only choice ..
[01:54:09] <Jacky^> otherwise, homebuild (L297-8) ..
[01:54:18] <K`zan> Highly recommended but expensive in the grand scheme of things, plus you would have to have something to split out the parallel port to each controller.
[01:54:41] <K`zan> Heh, building I can do, but FAR to ignorant at this point to have a clue about it.
[01:54:51] <K`zan> GOtta know what to build :).
[01:55:09] <Jacky^> i'm using homebuild driver .. l297-298
[01:55:32] <Jacky^> but, i get not much feed rate
[01:55:38] <K`zan> Looked for plans and there are a few, but how they relate to something like EMC / turbocnc is not clear to me at this point.
[01:55:44] <Jacky^> and .. i can only use half-step
[01:55:58] <Jymmm> Jacky^ xylotex.com
[01:56:13] <K`zan> I've got one I built using an AVR, but what to do with it beyond that I have not a clue.
[01:56:25] <Jacky^> K`zan: yeah, ive seen some plan too .. in cnczone
[01:56:34] <Jacky^> but many are craps ..
[01:56:42] <Jymmm> Jacky^ $145 USD http://xylotex.com/#3axis
[01:56:42] <Jacky^> hi Jymmm :)
[01:56:53] <Jacky^> yeah, looks good
[01:57:05] <K`zan> Serial comms are not going to work, so it looks like I would need to split out the parallel port signals to it and figure out what those signals are asking for,
[01:57:09] <K`zan> Fun :)
[01:57:24] <Jymmm> Jacky^ he sells 269 oz in steppers for $50 - those are what I'm using.
[01:57:29] <K`zan> Was a lot easier when someone supplied me with a working CNC mill and all I had to do was program it :).
[01:57:31] <Jymmm> brand new.
[01:57:36] <Jacky^> good
[01:58:12] <K`zan> The hobbycnc one looks interesting, but I'm wondering if it works with anything standard.
[01:58:19] <Jymmm> Jacky^ I can onyl tell you so many times about xylotex. So far it's been 4 times. But if you want to keep using/fighting home brew, so be it.
[01:58:48] <K`zan> Only way to find out (since they don't tell you) is to purchase one and THEN you can get into the closed support forum.
[01:58:49] <Jymmm> hobbycnc is unipolar only
[01:58:52] <K`zan> Sounds fishy...
[01:58:58] <Jymmm> zylotex is bipolar only
[01:59:00] <K`zan> or scammy as the case may be
[01:59:03] <Jacky^> bleah .. unipolar
[01:59:10] <Jymmm> xylotex is bipolar
[01:59:23] <K`zan> Lemme see what I have is unipolar I think, 5 wires.
[01:59:46] <Jacky^> mmhh ..
[02:00:03] <Jacky^> ive 6 wires steppers here
[02:00:07] <K`zan> I assume (hehehehehe) that type of stepper is what is commonly used. Not necessarily the ones I have coming to play with, but the real ones.
[02:00:29] <K`zan> Well, if these were split internally they would be 6, but the combine the two commons.
[02:00:30] <Jacky^> they done seem to be are good like 'native bipolar 4 wires)
[02:00:44] <Jymmm> Jacky^ thse will work with xylotex, just only in series/parallel I cant' remember which
[02:00:58] <K`zan> The NEMA23 ones are unipolar IIRC>
[02:01:00] <Jacky^> yeah, probably
[02:01:23] <Jymmm> K`zan NEMA23 is a physiical size, doens't mean shit in respect to uni/bipolar
[02:01:45] <K`zan> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G14781&variation=&aitem=3&mitem=6
[02:02:16] <K`zan> Seems to be what I want, if not necessarily the ones I want to end up with - no idea of torque on these, got them to play with.
[02:02:33] <K`zan> Same config of windings, steps, etc.
[02:03:07] <K`zan> My ignorance is overwhelming at this point :-/
[02:03:24] <Jacky^> K`zan: youre not the only one :)
[02:03:31] <K`zan> Jymmm: uh, right :-).
[02:03:32] <Jacky^> be happy :P
[02:04:11] <Jacky^> anyway, all depend on what you espect to do with your machine
[02:04:24] <Jacky^> plastic, wood, metal ..
[02:04:26] <K`zan> No bliss in ignorance when you want to do something it is blocking :-), study study study. I might be learning something as I seem to be at the point where I seem to be totally confused :).
[02:04:41] <Jacky^> and table size of course
[02:04:53] <K`zan> First plan is to put together a PCB router, no real reason other than it is a project and will be educational.
[02:05:10] <K`zan> Eventually I will acquire a Tiag mill...
[02:05:26] <K`zan> But that will require some time to fill up the milk can with pennies :).
[02:05:43] <Jacky^> nice
[02:06:00] <K`zan> err Taig
[02:06:01] <Jacky^> the motors should work ok , i think ..
[02:06:30] <K`zan> Biggest I could imagine going is like 12x12 and usually much smaller 6x9 may be max.
[02:06:35] <K`zan> 12"
[02:07:07] <K`zan> Was initally going to build a controller but before I do that I have MUCH!!!! to learn.
[02:07:28] <Jacky^> uhmm
[02:07:49] <Jacky^> i learned something in some mounth ..
[02:07:51] <K`zan> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/CNC/
[02:08:12] <Jacky^> assembled 5 drivers , l297-8
[02:08:20] <Jacky^> burned 2 ..
[02:08:34] <K`zan> At this point my BIG question is what comes out the parallel port and what you have to translate that to in the stepper controller.
[02:08:35] <Jacky^> and burned something like.. 15 IC
[02:08:57] <Jacky^> just an optoisolator circuit
[02:09:10] <K`zan> LOL, school of hard cash education - but very effective :).
[02:09:17] <Jacky^> :\
[02:09:50] <Jacky^> at the end.. to learn i puyed 150% of a commercial and good driver ..
[02:09:54] <K`zan> So what gets bit banged out the port from some standard CNC software directly drives the stepper.
[02:09:57] <Jacky^> payed
[02:10:18] <K`zan> Usually works that way, but you REALLY know what is going on at that point.
[02:10:32] <Jacky^> yes, emc generate the pulses
[02:10:38] <K`zan> Problem is my budget is touchy so I need to make a wise decision to begin with.
[02:10:44] <Jacky^> and they go to the input controllers
[02:11:09] <Jacky^> optoisolators between the circuits should save the parport ..
[02:11:18] <Jacky^> especially if is onboard
[02:11:19] <icee> kzan: step and direction comes out the parallel port
[02:11:27] <Jacky^> i burned 4 parport too ..
[02:11:31] <Jacky^> in few week
[02:11:37] <K`zan> Perhaps a closer perusal of the outputs might be a good thing at this point, I think I might make more sense of it now.
[02:11:40] <Jacky^> all isa, low cost ..
[02:11:45] <icee> kzan: then the driver board converts that to energizing the right phases on the stepper at the right levels
[02:12:12] <K`zan> It couldn't be that simple, really?
[02:12:23] <icee> yah, it is.
[02:12:27] <icee> I'll find you the pinouts.. one moment.
[02:12:36] <K`zan> get 2 bits and one says what direction and the other says "do it" ?
[02:12:41] <Jacky^> 2-3-4-5-6-7
[02:12:44] <icee> yah, it's that simple
[02:12:46] <Jacky^> for uot
[02:12:50] <Jacky^> out*
[02:12:52] <K`zan> uot?
[02:12:57] <K`zan> ah :)
[02:13:02] <Jacky^> 12-13-15 input limit switches
[02:13:10] <icee> http://www.sherline.com/8760pg.htm
[02:13:25] <icee> the linuxcnc wiki seems to be down.
[02:13:36] <K`zan> So maybe the AVR with the PWM and some FETs might do the job, wow.
[02:13:52] <icee> kzan: well, you don't want straight timing-based pwm
[02:14:04] <icee> you want to turn fets off based on a comparator and enforce a dead time
[02:14:20] <K`zan> Not quite that stone simple then :).
[02:14:20] <icee> there's lots of nice chips to do that for you though
[02:14:38] <icee> no need for a micro if you're doing reasonable current levels.
[02:14:39] <K`zan> Looks like a microcontroller would be overkill...
[02:15:47] <icee> k: like this: http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/9454.pdf
[02:15:50] <K`zan> Lemme look at the hobbyCNC stuff again, maybe it might work.
[02:16:07] <icee> I want to be able to drive really big steppers, and do some other things, so I'm building my own electronics
[02:16:21] <icee> and my own CPLD-based controller
[02:16:30] <Jacky^> icee: how many l298 for driver ?
[02:16:42] <icee> j: no l298's in my case
[02:16:47] <Jacky^> mosfet ?
[02:16:49] <icee> I'm driving TO220 fets directly
[02:16:56] <Jacky^> oh .. nice
[02:17:01] <icee> i should be able to very easily do 10 amps per phase
[02:17:04] <Jacky^> infact ..
[02:17:23] <K`zan> The price on the sherline thing is ludicris...
[02:17:26] <icee> and all the current levels are specified by a DAC, etc, so the current levels are software programmable
[02:17:26] <Jacky^> the L298 is 8 transistor .. nothing more
[02:17:29] <Jacky^> right ?
[02:17:37] <icee> kz: yah, i wasn't saying to get that, just to look at the pinout
[02:17:48] <icee> nah, the l298 is a bit more than that i think
[02:17:54] <K`zan> ah, understand.
[02:17:56] <icee> it needs to handle the enable inputs, the logic to prevent cross conduction, etc
[02:20:37] <icee> k: $150/axis with power supply isn't that ridiculous, though, is it?
[02:20:59] <Jacky^> mmhh
[02:21:08] <Jacky^> how many ampere ?
[02:21:15] <icee> most of these driver boxes are $80-100 for a single axis, without power supply, and require you to integrate/build connectors etc
[02:21:18] <icee> j: I don't know.
[02:21:34] <Jacky^> yeah ..
[02:21:45] <icee> 2A unipolar, it looks like
[02:22:03] <Jacky^> but some commercial driver has step multiplier.. and some other nice feature
[02:22:29] <icee> looks like this is a quarter stepping board
[02:22:34] <Jacky^> i never tried it
[02:22:45] <Jacky^> but should be funny :)
[02:25:58] <Jacky^> bed time for me ..
[02:26:03] <Jacky^> G night guys
[02:56:48] <K`zan> Apparently the HobbyCNC thing does work with standard CNC stuff, now that I have learned enough to recognize what they are telling me :)
[02:57:39] <K`zan> Not sure I need the 4 axis, three should do nicely, I think ?!?
[02:57:50] <icee> kz: you're sure you're never going to run a rotary table?
[02:59:10] <icee> kz: you'll need to add heat sinks to that thing
[03:05:54] <K`zan> Not that I can imagine at this point on the rotary table, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have a spare axis for $20...
[03:06:04] <icee> kz: what's your application?
[03:06:20] <K`zan> Bolting something to those for heat sinking shouldn't be a big deal...
[03:07:04] <K`zan> Mostly education and I have in mind for a first project a PCB router, 99.95% for educational value - how good it would be I have no idea until I try.
[03:07:40] <K`zan> Also I suppose I could cut templates out of plastic for my roomies lapidary stuff if it works at all.
[03:08:28] <K`zan> Will need to dig up a 24V power supply, just why I am not sure since the steppers are 12V, but most of these want more voltage than the steppers require (as best I understand it).
[03:08:52] <icee> kz: it's to overcome the inductance of the motor winding
[03:08:58] <K`zan> Ah
[03:09:09] <K`zan> So much for my PC power supplies :-(.
[03:09:17] <icee> well, you can get away with 12V pc power supply
[03:09:20] <icee> but you'll get less torque
[03:09:52] <icee> see, with a chopper drive, if you have a 6V/1A stepper and a 12V supply.. it'll use a lot of 12V current to overcome the inductance when the phase switches
[03:10:01] <K`zan> I guess it can grow as I can afford it. This looks like a good place to start. By the time I get through I'll know what can be improved.
[03:10:04] <icee> and then it'll use 12V/.5A average after that.
[03:10:19] <icee> the other .5A will come from ground and go to ground (pulled through by the magnetic field in the motor)
[03:10:32] <K`zan> So much to learn, sigh :-).
[03:10:45] <K`zan> Thanks much for helping dispell my ignorances :)
[03:11:00] <icee> no problem :) took me awhile to figure out this stuff
[03:11:21] <K`zan> Going from the ground up is a lot more involved than just programming a CNC mill :).
[03:11:28] <icee> do you have plans for the machine itself, or are you developing that too?
[03:11:33] <K`zan> Fun though if sometimes a bit frustrating...
[03:12:03] <K`zan> Will be developing the machine, seen various things and I think I can cobble something together that will do what I want from what I can find locally.
[03:12:15] <icee> because that's the hard part-- building strong, accurate & fast mechanicals
[03:12:54] <K`zan> Understand that, esp difficult with no tools available to make the stuff one needs.
[03:13:11] <K`zan> THis is what inspired the project: http://www.hobbycnc.com/plans/plans.htm
[03:13:13] <icee> well, it's possible to improvise processes to grind stuff accurately yourself, etc
[03:13:28] <K`zan> Will be doing a lot of that I suspect :-).
[07:56:12] <K`zan> Someone ? should take shureline off the download link...
[07:56:17] <K`zan> dead links.
[07:56:27] <K`zan> And / or links to nothing.
[08:32:08] <K`zan> two downloads of the live with two different md5sums and neither match the one given, WTF ?!?
[11:28:49] <anonimasu> mornin
[11:28:50] <anonimasu> g
[13:09:14] <ValarQ> mornin
[13:10:21] <ValarQ> is there any good way of getting data from the serialport into the hal system?
[13:11:51] <anonimasu> no idea about that sorry
[13:12:44] <ValarQ> i'm thinking of writing a hal_serial component, but i don't know if it's actually better to feed the hal system from userspace
[13:13:51] <anonimasu> well, depends a bit if you are going to do realtime stuff
[13:15:28] <ValarQ> it is realtime stuff, so i think i'm going for an own hal_serial
[13:17:46] <ValarQ> doesn't emc use the serialport somewhere?
[13:18:20] <anonimasu> no
[13:18:23] <anonimasu> not that I know of
[13:18:31] <anonimasu> I was looking at it before for using it comm with a plcb
[13:18:32] <anonimasu> plc..
[13:18:39] <Jacky^> morning
[15:17:28] <alex_joni> greetings
[15:24:00] <rayh> yawn!
[15:24:17] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[15:24:39] <alex_joni> rayh: what time you got over there?
[15:31:53] <rayh> It's about 9:00 in the morning
[15:32:05] <rayh> Hi alex
[15:32:37] <rayh> We've had our second frost and some snow flakes on the breeze.
[15:32:47] <rayh> Good weather is on the way!
[15:32:51] <alex_joni> coo
[15:33:06] <alex_joni> it's nice and sunny over here
[15:33:17] <alex_joni> not very warm though (about 15-18 C)
[15:33:46] <rayh> Much nicer than 45c.
[15:34:05] <alex_joni> lol
[15:34:13] <rayh> While you are standing next to a welding arc.
[15:34:52] <rayh> Do you have BDI 4.xx running with HAL?
[15:35:24] <alex_joni> somewhere around here, why?
[15:36:14] <rayh> phone brb
[15:48:00] <Imperator_> Hi all
[15:48:09] <alex_joni> hello Martin
[15:48:23] <Imperator_> Hi Alex
[15:48:28] <Imperator_> something new ??
[15:48:33] <alex_joni> not much
[15:48:38] <alex_joni> preparing to leave again :)
[15:48:55] <Imperator_> where do aou go
[15:48:58] <Imperator_> you
[15:49:34] <alex_joni> sweden
[15:49:47] <Imperator_> cool, buisenes travel ?
[15:50:01] <alex_joni> yup
[15:50:28] <Imperator_> but some day extra for sightseeing !!
[15:51:07] <Imperator_> I was yesturday in Berdesgaden, near Salzburg
[15:51:21] <alex_joni> cool
[15:51:24] <Imperator_> klimbing tour, but that was a bit to much for me
[15:52:23] <Imperator_> the plan was that we make today another tour, on the next mountain, but i was dead
[15:52:39] <alex_joni> heh
[15:52:40] <ValarQ> hello Joni
[15:52:48] <alex_joni> how's your card going Imperator_ ?
[15:52:56] <alex_joni> ValarQ: 'lo captain
[15:53:08] <Imperator_> three of four are finished
[15:53:14] <ValarQ> alex_joni: getting second thoughts about the trip to skåneland? ;)
[15:53:22] <alex_joni> nope
[15:53:28] <ValarQ> :)
[15:55:44] <alex_joni> why should I ?
[15:57:03] <rayh> Hi Martin. These mountains technical or walkup?
[15:57:29] <Imperator_> technikal
[15:57:52] <rayh> Nice. I did a bit of 5 climbing long ago.
[15:58:05] <Imperator_> not bad
[15:58:13] <ValarQ> alex_joni: i dunno really, those skåningar are a weird people
[15:58:15] <Imperator_> i have done a 6+
[15:58:25] <rayh> before my belly got in the way of hanging onto the rock<g>
[15:58:27] <ValarQ> alex_joni: i guess they live to close to that denmark thingie
[16:00:09] <Imperator_> rayh: :-D
[16:00:27] <rayh> I know several "skåningar" around here.
[16:01:11] <les> hi guys
[16:01:21] <ValarQ> rayh: where is here?
[16:01:24] <rayh> Hello Les.
[16:01:27] <les> ray...another question...
[16:01:32] <Imperator_> Hi Les
[16:01:38] <les> morning
[16:01:39] <Imperator_> rayh: http://www.berchtesgadener.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=27
[16:01:43] <rayh> The upper penninsula of michigan usa
[16:02:26] <ValarQ> rayh: ok, sounds pretty far from skåne
[16:03:02] <les> Ray,got the colombo spindle. first task is to try and setup speed control with stg dac.
[16:03:09] <les> Has anyone done this?
[16:03:14] <les> any docs?
[16:04:46] <rayh> I'm tired just looking at the climb.
[16:05:30] <alex_joni> les: what'cha trying? emc1 or emc2 ?
[16:05:50] <les> emc1
[16:06:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni would use emc2 ;)
[16:06:06] <alex_joni> would be pretty easy to do that
[16:06:32] <alex_joni> you'd take an unused DAC from the STG and connect it to the spindle speed (using HAL)
[16:06:32] <alex_joni> and you'd be set
[16:06:35] <les> alex, this is a production machine. emc2 is experimental...
[16:06:54] <rayh> ValarQ: Quite a few from northern europe settled up here.
[16:06:56] <alex_joni> well... if noone tries it out.. it'll stay that way
[16:07:07] <alex_joni> rayh: it's boring up there
[16:07:10] <alex_joni> not much else to do
[16:07:11] <alex_joni> lol
[16:07:40] <rayh> my last climb http://www.oregonphotos.com/Jack.html
[16:08:05] <les> I just need to know the procedure to get emc to control the dac from a F command
[16:08:42] <les> have not seen any docs on it
[16:08:55] <Imperator_> rayh: that was the tour : http://www.piding.de/seiten/route.htm
[16:09:31] <alex_joni> les: not sure you can do that on emc1
[16:09:35] <alex_joni> at least without much hassle
[16:10:26] <alex_joni> les: looking at it now
[16:10:45] <les> thanks
[16:11:02] <alex_joni> les: you're running bridgeportio iirc?
[16:11:14] <les> right now yes
[16:11:46] <les> the vfd can take 1-10v, 4-20ma, or serial
[16:12:01] <alex_joni> seems bridgeportspin.cc needs rewriting
[16:12:13] <alex_joni> to fit your needs
[16:12:32] <les> ah dave might know....
[16:12:38] <dave-e> sometimes
[16:12:40] <dave-e> hi les
[16:12:51] <les> dave, got my new spindle.
[16:13:03] <dave-e> 30 taper?
[16:13:17] <les> need info on getting the F code to control the vfd via an unused dac
[16:13:22] <les> have you done this?
[16:13:30] <dave-e> yes
[16:13:41] <les> oh good.
[16:13:43] <les> stg?
[16:13:46] <alex_joni> les: not much codng needed, no that I look at it
[16:13:51] <dave-e> yes
[16:13:59] <dave-e> additions to the ini
[16:14:12] <alex_joni> dave-e: for the dac-num?
[16:14:19] <dave-e> set the slope
[16:14:28] <alex_joni> that leads to a whole lot of passing of params .. :/
[16:14:30] <dave-e> it takes the dac 1+ last axis
[16:14:37] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok
[16:14:42] <les> emc1 or 2?
[16:14:43] <alex_joni> makes sense
[16:14:48] <dave-e> emc1
[16:14:59] <dave-e> jon did the code years ago
[16:14:59] <les> good...any docs you know of?
[16:15:36] <dave-e> list should have something Jon has explained several times
[16:15:46] <dave-e> let me take a look
[16:15:50] <dave-e> brb
[16:15:54] <les> i'll check archives
[16:15:58] <alex_joni> les: even if not, it's not that hard to do
[16:16:13] <alex_joni> only a few function calles added to bridgeportspin.cc
[16:16:25] <les> good
[16:16:56] <alex_joni> also need to change the Makefile (to link in STG-functions)
[16:17:01] <les> I decided on an ER25 unit rather than iso30
[16:17:35] <alex_joni> les: could you consider trying out emc2 otoh ?
[16:17:40] <les> still, $2200 for the 4 kw unit with vfd
[16:17:51] <dave-e> MAX_VOLTS_PER_RPM = 0.001
[16:17:51] <dave-e> MIN_VOLTS_PER_RPM = -0.001
[16:18:25] <les> alex, I would like to play with emc2, but I have tight production schedules.
[16:18:34] <dave-e> set the slope to make sense for your machine
[16:18:38] <les> ok
[16:18:58] <alex_joni> les: ok
[16:19:05] <les> on/off/brake is on the parport
[16:19:12] <alex_joni> right
[16:19:15] <dave-e> I found this in the ppmc.ini one emc1 cvs
[16:19:22] <dave-e> on emc1
[16:19:48] <dave-e> m3,m4 m5 also works
[16:19:55] <alex_joni> there's also:
[16:19:55] <alex_joni> SPINDLE_ON_INDEX <int> aio point for spindle speed reference
[16:20:11] <les> looks like I have to run two power lines...one 240 or 380 0-400 hz for the motor and another 240/60 for the cooling fan
[16:20:42] <dave-e> I think you can handle that ;-)
[16:20:54] <alex_joni> les: seems the code is all there
[16:21:01] <alex_joni> just not where I would have suspected it
[16:21:02] <les> right now I am designing the mount and vacuum shroud on autocad
[16:21:17] <les> the new shroud will float on linear bearings
[16:22:04] <alex_joni> les: only add the 3 lines and you should be set (the 2 dave-e mentioned, and the SPINDLE_ON_INDEX)
[16:22:30] <les> I also want to physically detect rotation
[16:22:44] <alex_joni> les: how many axes does your setup have ? 3
[16:22:48] <alex_joni> hi paul_c
[16:22:50] <les> and wire it into estop
[16:22:56] <les> yeah 3 axis
[16:23:22] <alex_joni> ok, then it's SPINDLE_ON_INDEX 3 (the first free one, the others are 0..2)
[16:23:33] <les> right
[16:23:37] <alex_joni> you got an 8-axes STG?
[16:23:41] <alex_joni> or only 4 ?
[16:23:42] <les> yes
[16:23:46] <les> 8
[16:24:00] <alex_joni> then I'd move the spindle further up (maybe on the last one)
[16:24:03] <alex_joni> not to mix them up ;)
[16:24:39] <les> I may go to a rot axis at some point
[16:25:02] <alex_joni> right.. then it's best if you have the spindle on 7
[16:25:08] <alex_joni> and still have 3..6 for spare
[16:25:14] <les> right
[16:25:15] <alex_joni> maybe one day you do 6-axis cutting :D
[16:25:54] <les> the machine was designed for an easy 5 axis upgrade...that's why z travel is so big
[16:26:05] <alex_joni> OK
[16:26:08] <rayh> On another note, I've got a dead GIMP here again.
[16:26:35] <alex_joni> someone call 911
[16:26:39] <rayh> tried to upgrade a 4.29 to 4.30 using packages from neuron.
[16:27:01] <dave-e> brb
[16:27:28] <alex_joni> rayh: you were asking about emc2 & bdi ?
[16:28:04] <rayh> Right. I tried to compile emc2 yesterday with 4.29
[16:28:17] <alex_joni> and?
[16:28:24] <rayh> configure said we were good to go and compile didn't seem to crash
[16:28:32] <rayh> a few warnings
[16:28:41] <rayh> but it would not start emc.
[16:28:41] <alex_joni> warnings.. is a bit unusual ;)
[16:28:51] <alex_joni> do you remember what the problem is?
[16:29:11] <rayh> Should have taken notes.
[16:29:15] <alex_joni> :D
[16:29:19] <paul_c> * paul_c takes dave-e to task over exactly who added spindle speed support to EMC1
[16:29:31] <rayh> The wiki page said there were reasons to upgrade to 4.30 so tried that.
[16:29:37] <alex_joni> * alex_joni suspects it might have been paul_c
[16:29:37] <rayh> Instead.
[16:29:52] <alex_joni> rayh: don't think those were the reasons..
[16:29:54] <alex_joni> but.. ok
[16:29:56] <rayh> Now it is gone. No boot, no reading of the menu.lst
[16:30:04] <alex_joni> bugger & stuff it
[16:30:08] <alex_joni> :/
[16:30:09] <rayh> just kernel panic.
[16:30:20] <alex_joni> kernel or grub ?
[16:30:24] <rayh> so I moved the good stuff with a morphix
[16:31:23] <rayh> grub seems to pass bad data
[16:32:57] <rayh> at the same time, it does NOT put up the menu.
[16:33:20] <rayh> I'll reboot and see if I can the the messages.
[16:35:55] <rayh> part seems to be a version fight between magma gcc3.3 and magma 2.95
[16:36:27] <rayh> But I don't get any stop during boot up at grub and I'm not certain that I could even get a grub command into it.
[16:36:31] <alex_joni> during boot? that's odd
[16:37:57] <dave-e> anyone notice that Team Grey .... DARPA 'bot race was running EMC?
[16:38:14] <anonimasu> hm no
[16:38:19] <anonimasu> hello everyone
[16:38:38] <dave-e> mornin'
[16:39:25] <alex_joni> dave-e: really?
[16:39:47] <alex_joni> thought I heard one was running RCSLIB
[16:39:47] <alex_joni> but EMC I didn't know
[16:39:49] <alex_joni> anonimasu: hello
[16:40:56] <paul_c> Electroni Mobility Controls
[16:41:23] <dave-e> oh
[16:42:11] <rayh> quite a number of these sorts of vehicles run rcslib.
[16:43:10] <rayh> It seems to be reading something from grub/menu.lst cause it puts up the boot splash.
[16:44:06] <Imperator_> maybe Fred teached them :-)
[16:44:57] <paul_c> rayh: Comment out the splashimage lines
[16:47:53] <rayh> okay
[16:50:29] <rayh> takes a bit to get morphix going and then reboot.
[16:55:27] <les> searching the archives....
[16:55:52] <les> oh BTW looks like I am getting a second production job using emc
[16:56:10] <les> table legs for a high end furniture manufacturer
[16:56:26] <rayh> okay by commenting out the splash stuff i get grub's menu
[16:57:05] <rayh> Now I see some issue with the 4.29->4.30 upgrade.
[16:57:50] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[16:58:04] <dave-e> hi steve
[16:58:54] <steve_stallings> hi dave, I'v been lurking but wanted coffee to kick in before I poked my head up, think Paul is waiting to pounce, something about wiki management
[16:59:27] <dave-e> coffee helps
[16:59:36] <dave-e> time for a refill
[17:02:19] <dave-e> paul ... Palo Verdes HS is using the Electronic Mobility stuff ... cannot verify or disallow the Grey team as their web site is down
[17:02:52] <dave-e> ray .... I'll call you later
[17:03:52] <rayh> k
[17:10:19] <les> paul what was the first version bdi to have spindle control?
[17:10:41] <alex_joni> smthg post 2002 I suspect
[17:11:45] <les> i'll look in the source code too....
[17:12:01] <les> prob in bridgeportio.cc
[17:13:25] <alex_joni> les: look for 9-Nov-2002 P.C. Added Spindle Speed to EMC_SPINDLE_ON NML message.
[17:13:33] <alex_joni> top of bridgeporttool.cc
[17:14:40] <les> thanks
[17:14:43] <paul_c> les: Late 2002.
[17:17:53] <les> I see...paul_c 9 nov 2002 in bridgeporttool.cc
[17:19:52] <rayh> Mornin Dan.
[17:20:32] <dan_falck> hi ray
[17:21:10] <paul_c> * paul_c notes steve_stallings is awake
[17:21:26] <alex_joni> <steve_stallings> hi dave, I'v been lurking but wanted coffee to kick in before I poked my head up, think Paul is waiting to pounce, something about wiki management
[17:21:52] <paul_c> [16:23:54] <steve_stallings> hi dave, I'v been lurking
[17:22:26] <paul_c> steve_stallings: You have putty running on the M$ box of yours ?
[17:22:45] <Jymmm> http://home.uchicago.edu/~yli5/Flash/Fire.html
[17:23:39] <alex_joni> hey Jymmm
[17:29:03] <steve_stallings> Putty??? Probably not since I don't recognize it.
[17:29:25] <alex_joni> putty = ssh for doze
[17:30:14] <paul_c> steve_stallings: or do you have a Linux box up and running ?
[17:30:14] <steve_stallings> So I can run console sessions to SourceForge?
[17:30:32] <paul_c> yup.
[17:30:38] <steve_stallings> I can have laptop running Linux in a few minutes.
[17:31:13] <CIA-8> 03paul_c * 10emc2-auto/wiki/ (diff_log maintain keep/E/EmcIni.kp page/E/EmcIni.db): "Kick that cron job off by hand and maybe it will run at the correct time later... "
[17:38:22] <Jymmm> hi alex! you checkout the link?
[17:42:12] <alex_joni> yup
[17:45:11] <steve_stallings> Paul - laptop is ready, not so sure about me....
[17:45:52] <paul_c> Do you remember your log in name & passwd ?
[17:46:16] <Jymmm> paul_c: If not, $5 and I'll give it to you
[17:46:58] <paul_c> ssh <usr name>@shell.sourceforge.net
[17:46:59] <steve_stallings> developer account, yes
[17:47:21] <paul_c> ssh [email protected]
[17:47:50] <paul_c> repeat that for the benefit of the late arrival....
[17:47:54] <paul_c> ssh [email protected]
[17:48:31] <paul_c> On entering your passwd, you should have a shell running on the SF server
[17:48:47] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is inactive account, real one is stevestallings, login success
[17:50:01] <paul_c> ls /tmp/persistent/e/em/emc
[17:50:41] <paul_c> This is where all the wiki data is stored that is editable from a web browser
[17:51:48] <paul_c> ls /home/groups/e/em/emc
[17:52:17] <paul_c> this is the base directory for all emc.sourceforge.net web stuff
[17:52:50] <steve_stallings> brb, phone...
[17:52:55] <paul_c> htdocs is all static visable data for web content
[17:53:31] <paul_c> ls /home/groups/e/em/emc/cgi-bin
[17:53:48] <paul_c> that is where the wiki script lives...
[17:54:06] <Jymmm> wiki's ar icky!
[17:54:10] <paul_c> It's config is in /home/groups/e/em/emc
[17:54:20] <paul_c> Jymmm: Yes I know.
[17:55:34] <alex_joni_> no Jymmm, those are wicky's :)
[17:55:44] <paul_c> /home/groups/e/em/emc/wiki.tar has just been deleted.
[17:55:57] <paul_c> alex_joni_: You following this too ?
[17:56:05] <alex_joni_> paul_c: yes
[17:56:09] <alex_joni_> also logging
[17:56:23] <paul_c> * paul_c has to go in 8 mins.
[17:57:03] <alex_joni_> ok.. where's this leading ?
[17:57:05] <paul_c> All the data in /tmp/persistent/e/em/emc needs to be backed up on a regular basis.
[17:57:24] <alex_joni_> ok, any chance to do cron stuff on SF ?
[17:57:37] <paul_c> At the moment, I have a cron job running that dumps a tarball in htdocs
[17:57:50] <alex_joni_> how about mailing it?
[17:58:10] <paul_c> alex_joni_: You can run cron jobs from your shell account, but there are restrictions.
[17:58:47] <paul_c> no mail, cvs access (except anon)
[17:59:20] <alex_joni_> should be enough for sendmail
[18:00:38] <alex_joni_> hello john
[18:00:56] <paul_c> SF do not keep backups of the /tmp/persistent/ data, so if wiki goes down, there needs to be more than one who can restore
[18:01:06] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[18:01:58] <alex_joni_> paul_c: how about creating a gmail account (with passwd known to the board)
[18:01:59] <paul_c> The data is being committed to the emc2-auto CVS tree, so there is your backup if wiki goes tits up again.
[18:02:09] <alex_joni_> right, that's ok too
[18:02:32] <paul_c> Any project member can access web & shell space.
[18:02:41] <alex_joni_> right
[18:02:44] <paul_c> do not need admins to do everything
[18:02:57] <alex_joni_> agreed (very much so)
[18:03:53] <dave-e> ray... I just talked to Matt
[18:04:10] <paul_c> Time's up - be back later.
[18:04:33] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Need words about some of the files in the emc2/hal tree.
[18:04:44] <dave-e> he says he down on Biddle St. but you can call him on his cell 443-789-4628
[18:05:36] <rayh> thanks dave-e
[18:06:07] <rayh> I tried to query you a bit ago but I guess it didn't take.
[18:06:52] <dave-e> I answered but there is a registry problem... will call you later and maybe we can fix it
[18:08:52] <rayh> ah you need to register you nick and supply a passwd.
[18:09:42] <rayh> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml
[18:09:55] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[18:10:21] <alex_joni> rayh, dave-e: another way is to start a channel
[18:10:30] <alex_joni> that's pretty private too
[18:10:41] <rayh> Right.
[18:11:47] <rayh> alex_joni: I used to know how to startup morphix and then chroot into a hd install.
[18:12:01] <rayh> but I don't seem to be able to do that today.
[18:12:21] <rayh> I was hoping to run apt-get on this drive that will not boot.
[18:12:23] <alex_joni> hmm, chroot /path-to mounted ?
[18:13:34] <jmkasunich> rayh: you know anything about apt-getting tcl8.4? (didja see my email to emc-dev?)
[18:15:21] <rayh> didn't see it been computer dead for a bit.
[18:15:29] <jmkasunich> bummer
[18:15:48] <rayh> Thanks alex. I was trying to chroot to a non-root directory
[18:16:14] <rayh> A while back the debian tickle folk compiled with threads
[18:16:28] <rayh> so paul and I compiled our own.
[18:16:48] <steve_stallings> alex - I have succeeded with SF login and looked around, also logged IRC session for future reference, but being a novice I will leave things to you unless you are not around
[18:17:08] <alex_joni> well.. right now I am around ..
[18:17:14] <jmkasunich> you guys working on wiki maintainence?
[18:17:16] <alex_joni> but lately that seems to be an exception
[18:17:22] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: smthg like that
[18:17:40] <alex_joni> steve_stallings: came back on friday night, going away on monday morning
[18:17:50] <alex_joni> been like this for the last 2 months :(
[18:18:02] <steve_stallings> ahhhh youth.....
[18:18:14] <steve_stallings> it would kill me
[18:21:07] <Jymmm> les : You around or polishing all that chrome on the tractor?
[18:21:39] <alex_joni> bling bling
[18:21:50] <Jymmm> yep
[18:21:54] <alex_joni> lol
[18:22:05] <alex_joni> shiny new 54" wheels
[18:22:14] <Jymmm> lol no shit huh
[18:22:26] <alex_joni> plus the lowrider style hydraulics
[18:22:35] <Jymmm> put all those rappers to shame with their 22" rims
[18:22:42] <alex_joni> right
[18:22:50] <alex_joni> not to mention the "system"
[18:23:11] <alex_joni> needs a generator that's beeing toed behind the tractor
[18:23:37] <jmkasunich> thats what the PTO is for
[18:23:44] <Jymmm> an audio engineer installing a 'system' on a tractor.... could you imagine the speaker boxes?! being towed by the tractor
[18:25:01] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: wot's a PTO ?
[18:25:28] <jmkasunich> Power Take Off - a shaft sticking out the back of a tractor to power accessories
[18:25:38] <alex_joni> ahh.. right
[18:25:54] <Jymmm> alex_joni http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.generatricedrummond.com/images/PTO%2520tracteur.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.generatricedrummond.com/francais/GD_pto_Fr.htm&h=264&w=394&sz=116&tbnid=8ZO0rvtN_ZIJ:&tbnh=80&tbnw=120&hl=en&start=27&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpto%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN
[18:26:10] <jmkasunich> with a reputation for sucking in unlucky farmers who get too close
[18:26:44] <Jymmm> * Jymmm thinks jmkasunich has a lil hick in him =)
[18:27:06] <Jymmm> http://www.carverequipment.com/images/PTO%20generator%20Up%20Close.jpg
[18:27:17] <alex_joni> Jymmm: nice
[18:27:19] <jmkasunich> maybe just a little
[18:27:24] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: care for a new lathe?
[18:27:31] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/emc/foo/Resize%20of%20HPIM9066.JPG
[18:27:53] <jmkasunich> I can't afford the shipping
[18:28:03] <alex_joni> :/
[18:28:14] <Jymmm> alex_joni Hey! I can turn some doll house columns wiht that
[18:28:28] <alex_joni> how about some real columns?
[18:28:28] <jmkasunich> that looks strange, it's like the headstock is independent of the ways
[18:28:31] <Jymmm> one tree at a time
[18:28:37] <alex_joni> right ;)
[18:29:19] <Jymmm> jmkasunich forget teh shipping... just imagine the hoist system you would need to load/unload stock
[18:29:23] <jmkasunich> I've seen a lathe pretty close to that size, but not that design, it was more conventional
[18:29:36] <alex_joni> this one is about 15m long :D
[18:29:51] <jmkasunich> the one I saw was 40ft, so pretty close
[18:30:01] <alex_joni> cool
[18:30:08] <jmkasunich> it had a bigger spindle hole tho, probably a foot of more
[18:30:10] <alex_joni> it's for sale though.. so if interested :))
[18:30:29] <jmkasunich> this one was two (I saw it at a local surplus dealer)
[18:30:33] <Jymmm> alex_joni if it comes with free shipping... deal!
[18:31:34] <alex_joni> Jymmm: don't think you can afford it though
[18:31:44] <Jymmm> $1
[18:32:04] <Jymmm> alex_joni forget affording it... more like where the hell am I gonna put it!
[18:32:15] <alex_joni> turn yourself a new home
[18:33:09] <Jymmm> out of what... old milk jugs?
[18:33:41] <alex_joni> lol
[18:33:46] <alex_joni> how about trees?
[18:34:09] <anonimasu> lol
[18:34:20] <Jymmm> nope, no trees around here. Lots and lots of old scrap computers ... about 50K+ of them
[18:34:35] <jmkasunich> old PC's = bricks!
[18:34:39] <Jymmm> hell, you can even buy a CRAY if you wanted
[18:34:42] <anonimasu> alex_joni: large lathe not extreme ;)
[18:34:50] <Jymmm> couple hundered too
[18:35:00] <alex_joni> Jymmm: how much for a cray?
[18:35:05] <les> jmk!
[18:35:11] <anonimasu> I heard some rumor about a palce close to here where they turn rolls for a paper factory..
[18:35:12] <jmkasunich> les!
[18:35:16] <Jymmm> alex_joni I think I say it for $400
[18:35:20] <Jymmm> saw
[18:35:26] <les> ever heard of actech inverters? any good?
[18:35:29] <alex_joni> Jymmm: ass one to my wishlist
[18:35:29] <alex_joni> :D
[18:35:34] <anonimasu> the control sits at top if the slide ;)
[18:35:36] <alex_joni> add
[18:35:37] <alex_joni> :D
[18:35:43] <alex_joni> anonimasu: nice
[18:35:46] <anonimasu> yeah
[18:35:48] <Jymmm> alex_joni oh you head a space heater huh?
[18:35:53] <anonimasu> I wish I knew where so I could see it in action
[18:35:55] <jmkasunich> sorry les, don't know those
[18:36:09] <jmkasunich> don't really know much about home shop sized drives in general
[18:36:11] <Jymmm> les: have you been polishing the chrome on the tractor?
[18:36:29] <les> I am finding a lot of confusion on running vfds on single phase
[18:36:37] <alex_joni> [19:46] <Jymmm> les : You around or polishing all that chrome on the tractor?
[18:36:37] <alex_joni> [19:46] <alex_joni> bling bling
[18:36:37] <alex_joni> [19:46] <Jymmm> yep
[18:36:37] <alex_joni> [19:46] <alex_joni> lol
[18:36:37] <alex_joni> [19:47] <alex_joni> shiny new 54" wheels
[18:36:38] <alex_joni> [19:47] <Jymmm> lol no shit huh
[18:36:40] <alex_joni> [19:47] <alex_joni> plus the lowrider style hydraulics
[18:36:41] <les> this is 5 kW
[18:36:42] <alex_joni> [19:47] <Jymmm> put all those rappers to shame with their 22" rims
[18:36:44] <alex_joni> [
[18:37:03] <les> I was working on the tractor yesterday
[18:37:15] <les> beefing up the forklift tongs
[18:37:27] <Jymmm> les you got the 300 lbs bass ordered yet fo the tractor sound system?
[18:37:37] <jmkasunich> les: you can usually run 3ph input drives on single phase. You should derate to 2/3 of drive rating unless the drive manual says otherwise
[18:37:45] <les> heh...yeah.
[18:37:56] <steve_stallings> les - Jon Elson has made comments about ACTech in the past as being a source of inverters capable of greater than 400 Hz, he may know more...
[18:38:08] <Jymmm> alex_joni Noe, here's a speaker.... http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/products/subwoofers/jackHammer.cfm
[18:38:28] <les> jmk...I see anything from 30% to 50% to can"t as far as vfd on single phase
[18:38:57] <les> I have a big rotary phase converter, but I figure why run it?
[18:39:13] <jmkasunich> no other three phase loads?
[18:39:38] <les> yeah most of the stuff is 3 phase.
[18:39:42] <anonimasu> les: you could try calling up a company that manufactures them..
[18:39:50] <anonimasu> they should know
[18:39:57] <les> I will call up actech
[18:40:09] <les> they go to 1000 hz special order
[18:40:14] <les> I only need 400
[18:40:25] <jmkasunich> well if there are other 3 ph loads, then use the converter for them, and since it is running also use it to feed the VFD. The drive will be happier that way
[18:40:51] <anonimasu> 1000hz nice!
[18:40:53] <anonimasu> :D
[18:41:10] <les> I see carazy requirements on many drives for phase voltage and angle balance
[18:41:17] <les> like 2%
[18:41:29] <les> rotaries just aren't that good
[18:41:40] <jmkasunich> these are small drives? (10HP and under)?
[18:41:50] <les> yeah
[18:42:00] <les> I need 5 hp
[18:42:05] <jmkasunich> seems odd, our little drives don't have tight specs like that
[18:42:19] <les> but if 3 phase must have a 10 hp drive
[18:42:42] <jmkasunich> voltage imbalance on the incoming line will cause a larger current imbalance
[18:42:53] <les> but actech has a 5 hp that does not require derating for single phase
[18:42:57] <jmkasunich> but for small drives it isn't usuallyt an issue
[18:43:36] <les> well I can balance the rotary perfectly for a particular load
[18:43:46] <les> but loads are always changing
[18:43:50] <les> and
[18:44:06] <les> I'm upping the horsepower of just about everything
[18:44:17] <les> new cnc spindle
[18:44:25] <les> bigger tablesaw
[18:44:26] <Jymmm> including the margarita blender
[18:44:30] <les> bigger jointer
[18:44:39] <les> second vertical mill
[18:45:13] <les> I have alotted $15k for shop upgrades
[18:45:32] <Yuga> hey there les... how u doing?
[18:45:35] <les> I can eisily justify it by reduced labor costs
[18:45:43] <les> easily
[18:45:45] <les> plus
[18:45:50] <les> I like tools.
[18:45:54] <les> hi yuga!
[18:46:05] <Yuga> u still looking for a new spindle :)
[18:46:15] <les> I bought it yuga
[18:46:25] <Yuga> what u buy?
[18:46:25] <les> it is not installed yet
[18:46:47] <Yuga> not installed yet and u have had it for a whole day
[18:46:49] <Yuga> i'm shocked :)
[18:46:53] <les> colombo rs90 4 kW 24000 rpm
[18:47:01] <anonimasu> that's anice
[18:47:05] <anonimasu> a nice spindle :)
[18:47:14] <les> It seems very well made
[18:47:20] <les> class 7 bearings
[18:47:30] <Jymmm> anonimasu's italian accent is coming out
[18:47:46] <les> the qa report lists that it is balanced to .015g
[18:48:15] <Jymmm> les does that spindle come with a blender attachment?
[18:48:22] <les> I have to run some bigger lines in the igus flexible conduit though
[18:48:29] <les> it's a pian
[18:48:31] <alex_joni> Jymmm: smthg for you
[18:48:32] <alex_joni> http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm
[18:48:33] <les> pain
[18:48:49] <les> also...my estop stuff is 5v ttl
[18:49:01] <les> I had better up that to 24v diff
[18:49:16] <jmkasunich> yeah, 5V is hobby class
[18:49:21] <les> or filter the vfd output more
[18:49:32] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: might want to look too: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm
[18:49:34] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Nah, that's somethning more for les than me
[18:49:55] <alex_joni> scroll down to HORN subwoofer
[18:50:37] <jmkasunich> saw that site before
[18:50:40] <jmkasunich> insane
[18:50:46] <alex_joni> yup
[18:50:52] <jmkasunich> I'm very much NOT a golden ears type
[18:51:33] <les> I used to design high fidelity gear for a living, and I believe in negative feedback!
[18:51:40] <alex_joni> on that sub, you probably need no ears at all
[18:51:45] <alex_joni> you just feel the sound :D
[18:51:46] <les> and feedforward
[18:51:55] <les> like the lm604 op amp
[18:52:07] <jmkasunich> the "no feedback" folks are zealots
[18:52:09] <Yuga> whsi they would give u the spec's on that box
[18:52:27] <alex_joni> anonimasu: figured that opamp problem you had?
[18:55:04] <alex_joni> Jymmm: how about http://www.autosound2000.com/gallery/images/Richard3-sml.jpg ?
[18:55:49] <jmkasunich> wow...
[18:56:09] <jmkasunich> I guess everybody is entitled to their own obsessions..
[18:56:16] <les> ..and I thought I was a little overboard in the music room....
[18:56:42] <jmkasunich> high end audio is definitely MMTB territory
[18:57:10] <alex_joni> mmtb?
[18:57:18] <jmkasunich> More Money Than Brains
[18:57:25] <alex_joni> lol
[18:57:30] <les> here is a lot of marketing hype...and it works
[18:57:31] <alex_joni> what brains?
[18:58:06] <les> I tried to design genuinely better performing components.
[18:58:13] <steve_stallings> the scrambled ones, from the excess bass
[18:58:36] <alex_joni> steve_stallings: I think they turn mushy and flow out of your skull
[18:59:22] <jmkasunich> google "brown note"
[18:59:24] <steve_stallings> I still like my 30 year old Maganaplanars, lacking in bass, but when I tried to add a sub-woofer IT sounded mushy
[18:59:43] <rayh> I've used dc servo amps for audio. Lots of power.
[18:59:50] <les> In the transducer lab the vp would come over on fridays and we had to play opera in the listening rooms
[18:59:59] <les> when he left...ROCK
[19:00:47] <les> That was a long time ago.
[19:00:58] <Yuga> les... u letting your age slip
[19:01:11] <les> I designed drivers and phonograph cartridges.
[19:01:20] <les> how's that for age slip
[19:01:43] <Yuga> lol
[19:03:04] <les> although...driver technology has not changed much in 60 years except for hi temperature voice coils and better magnets
[19:04:38] <les> later I designed voice coil drivers for xyz cnc!
[19:06:17] <les> they make quite a linear motor.
[19:06:19] <alex_joni> voice coil?
[19:06:26] <alex_joni> ahh. ok
[19:07:04] <rayh> short travel
[19:07:11] <les> hundreds of newtons force, a few tens of grams mass!
[19:07:24] <les> yeah ray short travel for dure
[19:07:29] <les> sure
[19:10:02] <Jymmm> les : I had a question for ya when you get a second
[19:10:44] <les> shoot
[19:10:49] <alex_joni> BANG!
[19:10:56] <les> aieee
[19:11:04] <alex_joni> only blanks
[19:11:05] <alex_joni> :D
[19:12:00] <Jymmm> les : ok, 3/4" material... Is there some way to create a "dovetail like" joint without having to place the raw stock vertical? I want to make a simple box.
[19:13:18] <anonimasu> ^_^
[19:13:35] <alex_joni> anonimasu: any luck on the opamps?
[19:14:00] <anonimasu> alex_joni: nl
[19:14:00] <anonimasu> no
[19:14:05] <anonimasu> I havent played anything yet..
[19:14:14] <alex_joni> you might want to ask jmkasunich
[19:14:21] <alex_joni> he's pretty good on electronics
[19:14:26] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: right?
[19:14:28] <les> I am writing up some dovetail g code
[19:14:48] <les> spindle rotates 30,45 and 90
[19:14:53] <jmkasunich> maybe ;-)
[19:15:02] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: simple stuff
[19:15:07] <jmkasunich> what is the question?
[19:15:12] <alex_joni> he's got a sensor that delivers 0-5V analog
[19:15:19] <Jymmm> les : LOL, bastard... my spindle rotates diddly squawt!
[19:15:20] <alex_joni> he needs to invert the signal to 5-0V
[19:15:37] <jmkasunich> what power supply?
[19:15:42] <alex_joni> ;)
[19:15:48] <anonimasu> well +12v and gns
[19:15:49] <anonimasu> gnd
[19:15:54] <anonimasu> but I can make +10/-10v
[19:15:54] <K`zan> Morning all.
[19:15:55] <jmkasunich> with a single 5V supply you need a rail-to-rail op-amp
[19:15:58] <anonimasu> with a max232cpe
[19:16:35] <jmkasunich> with _12 and gnd, 5V is ok, but you won't be able to get all the way to zero
[19:16:51] <jmkasunich> if you have +/- supplies then no problem
[19:16:57] <alex_joni> right ;)
[19:17:00] <anonimasu> hm, as long as the signal goes in 5-0v it's ok..
[19:17:06] <anonimasu> I can compensate for that stuff..
[19:17:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni suggested a 9V battery for neg. voltage :)
[19:17:21] <anonimasu> but well I have +/-10v
[19:17:26] <anonimasu> if I have to have it
[19:17:27] <jmkasunich> what is the final load? an ADC or something?
[19:17:42] <anonimasu> almost none..
[19:17:52] <Jymmm> les: So I'll take it that there is not other type of joint that could accomplish that?
[19:17:58] <les> hmm
[19:18:07] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: yeah it's a adc..
[19:18:11] <les> with the stock flat
[19:18:18] <anonimasu> a sensor for the car
[19:18:24] <anonimasu> err pressure sensor
[19:18:40] <jmkasunich> question: why not invert it in software after the ADC?
[19:18:47] <Jymmm> les: Yeah. The idea is to be able to cut out all the pieces from a single sheet.
[19:18:54] <anonimasu> because I dont have access to the ECU of the car..
[19:18:56] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: probably not accessible
[19:19:01] <les> yeah some kind of curvelinear dovetail
[19:19:11] <jmkasunich> ok, now I understand
[19:19:14] <les> let me check
[19:19:19] <Jymmm> les ok
[19:19:22] <anonimasu> but I have means of tweaking it to fit..
[19:19:30] <alex_joni> anonimasu: bigger hammer
[19:19:42] <anonimasu> so it dosent have to go all the way.. just from 5-0 instead of 0-5
[19:19:58] <jmkasunich> ok, let's skip the details like rail-to-rail and just worry about the basics
[19:20:03] <anonimasu> yeah :)
[19:20:29] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: how about one of those current-opamps ?
[19:20:33] <jmkasunich> if you just did Vout = -Vin, you'd get 0 to -5
[19:20:52] <alex_joni> then you need to bias it by 5V
[19:20:56] <jmkasunich> but if you do Vout = -Vin + 5, you get 5 to 0, which is what you want
[19:21:00] <jmkasunich> yes, what Alex said
[19:21:11] <jmkasunich> so you need a reference voltage
[19:21:41] <anonimasu> that's where the - voltage comes in right?
[19:22:09] <jmkasunich> no, the negative supply was to make sure the op-amp output could swing all the way down to ground
[19:22:16] <rayh> /quit
[19:22:20] <anonimasu> hm ok
[19:22:47] <les> I have to do a similar thing in a variant of my encoder product
[19:22:49] <jmkasunich> tie the non-inverting input of the op-amp to +2.5V,
[19:23:05] <jmkasunich> connect a 10K resistor from output to the inverting input
[19:23:06] <les> looking for really low cost band gap references!
[19:23:08] <anonimasu> wait a sec..
[19:23:16] <jmkasunich> and another 10K from Vin to inverting input
[19:23:26] <anonimasu> http://www.bojn.net/~an0n/schematic1.gif
[19:23:51] <anonimasu> that's how it's hooked up now
[19:23:53] <alex_joni> anonimasu: only that output is on 6 not on 7
[19:24:13] <les> which is your machinr jymmm? link to a picture?
[19:24:29] <jmkasunich> yeah, output is 6, other than that you have it right
[19:24:30] <Jymmm> les JAS
[19:24:33] <les> k
[19:24:36] <anonimasu> hm
[19:24:42] <anonimasu> so that circuit should be working?
[19:24:45] <anonimasu> nice..
[19:25:05] <alex_joni> only thing is that the voltage divider might not be perfect
[19:25:08] <jmkasunich> power goes to 7, output is taken from 6, feedback resistor goes to 6, and then it should work
[19:25:18] <jmkasunich> all resistors the same value
[19:25:27] <alex_joni> you might want to use a 2.5V chip
[19:25:40] <jmkasunich> accuracy depends on the resistors....
[19:25:50] <anonimasu> so I should put + on the 7
[19:25:56] <jmkasunich> ideally the 5V for the divider is the reference voltage for the ADC
[19:25:56] <anonimasu> instead
[19:25:59] <alex_joni> yeah.. but if it's to work ok (with diff. temp. ranges)...
[19:26:07] <jmkasunich> yes, +power supply goes to 7
[19:26:12] <anonimasu> hm, I got a temp sensor as ref..
[19:26:13] <anonimasu> ;)
[19:26:23] <anonimasu> so the temp isnt important for the sensor operation
[19:26:33] <alex_joni> ok, if you say so :D
[19:26:35] <Jymmm> les http://www.k2cnc.com/DuportalPro343Access/images/cnc3925c.jpg (but only 25"x25"
[19:26:39] <les> k
[19:27:07] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: how do those rails deal with wood dust?
[19:27:18] <anonimasu> alex_joni: the opamp should be able to handle it
[19:27:19] <anonimasu> :)
[19:27:26] <anonimasu> it's rated for more :)
[19:27:36] <Jymmm> les I *DO* have 5" travel on Z, and also extended clearnace Z gantry bars as well
[19:27:53] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[19:28:21] <anonimasu> nice
[19:28:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich np so far. There are lil 'thingies' on the slides that help keep crap out.
[19:28:35] <anonimasu> I cant test it right now though
[19:28:52] <Jymmm> jmkasunich though I haven't regreased them since I started making sawdust.
[19:28:54] <anonimasu> we'll continue this after I've tried it :)
[19:29:31] <alex_joni> probably best
[19:29:39] <Jymmm> jmkasunich when I take a shopvac to the rails, most all the dust comes off, except near the ends of the rails. I suspect that's where the grease builds up a bit.
[19:30:11] <les> think right angle bracket jymmm...bbiaw one of my workers is broken down on the road...have to go pick him up. Am I a good boss or what?
[19:30:29] <Jymmm> les good boss to slave labor =)
[19:30:35] <les> ahem...
[19:30:43] <les> heh
[19:30:45] <les> biaw
[19:30:48] <Jymmm> k
[19:31:20] <Jymmm> jmkasunich more dust collects in teh channels on the 80/20 than on the rails themselves.
[19:32:49] <Jymmm> * Jymmm bitches abut paying $9 for a brush attachment for the shopvac!
[19:33:15] <Jymmm> damn sears, they screw yu on the accesories!
[19:35:00] <K`zan> Jymmm: Dunno what you have where you live, but you would be amazed at what you can find at thrift stores :).
[19:48:08] <Jymmm> K`zan not gonna spend the time to run around to every thrift store trying to find the right thing, especially at $3.25/gallon
[19:48:31] <alex_joni_> that's cheap
[19:48:43] <alex_joni_> over here diesel is at 1 EUR /liter
[19:48:44] <Jymmm> alex_joni yeah, and you take the train
[19:49:14] <alex_joni_> that's 1.2 $ / liter
[20:14:33] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[20:58:30] <K`zan> Jymmm: Can understand that, fortunately I have 3 good ones that are on my way to places I have to go to :-).
[21:03:18] <K`zan> * K`zan has about decided on the HobbyCNC 3 axis as a start...
[21:03:54] <K`zan> When I get rich, I'll go for the Gekko stuff :)
[21:08:53] <les> blah. back.
[21:09:16] <les> my employee blew up his starter.
[21:09:24] <alex_joni_> heh
[21:09:41] <les> I couldn't help him other than to take him home.
[21:09:45] <anonimasu> heh
[21:09:47] <anonimasu> how did he blow it?
[21:10:06] <les> He had replaced the starter solenoid...and miswired it
[21:10:38] <icee> that sounds difficult to do
[21:10:52] <les> yeah I can't imagine
[21:11:35] <les> said it worked a while then a loud electrical boom
[21:11:39] <les> I think
[21:12:08] <les> that the original solenoid was good. The starter was bad, and the miswiring did not cause it.
[21:12:22] <icee> that would make more sense
[21:12:36] <icee> unless his car has a 24V electrical system or something ;)
[21:14:35] <anonimasu> hm, how do you miswire a solenoid..
[21:14:36] <anonimasu> heh
[21:14:39] <anonimasu> that sounds strange..
[21:14:52] <anonimasu> I think if you hook it up wrong you get + to ground
[21:16:19] <icee> this flaky logger thing needs to go :P
[21:16:23] <icee> it reconnects all day long
[21:16:46] <alex_joni_> icee: it's set as a cron
[21:16:57] <alex_joni_> because it tends to die ;)
[21:17:01] <alex_joni_> so it simply restarts once / day
[21:17:53] <anonimasu> les: yeah
[21:37:02] <les> long call.
[21:37:29] <les> This is supposed to be my day off!
[21:39:19] <alex_joni_> I hear you
[21:39:38] <les> well I did do some house cleaning
[21:40:01] <les> and I wanted to clen the engines on the cars
[21:40:13] <les> I like perfectly clean engines
[21:41:15] <les> how were the brats today ray?
[21:41:28] <les> bet it's cold up there
[21:41:58] <rayh> I've got a pack of em in the fridge. Should barbeque this evening.
[21:42:05] <rayh> How thing there, jes.
[21:42:11] <rayh> Les.
[21:42:25] <rayh> Was frosty this morning.
[21:46:29] <Jymmm> ray's has the brats in the freezer and is going to bbq them today?!
[21:47:24] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Still awake ?
[21:47:35] <Jymmm> he better be
[21:47:44] <alex_joni_> he's idle for 2h
[21:47:51] <alex_joni_> paul_c: simply /whois ;)
[21:47:57] <Jymmm> maybe he's bbqing brats too
[21:47:57] <jmkasunich> yeah
[21:48:10] <alex_joni_> ohh.. here he is ;)
[21:48:13] <Jymmm> brats as in rug rats
[21:48:25] <paul_c> small children grilled over a charcoal fire...
[21:48:27] <jmkasunich> don't have those (thank god)
[21:48:42] <rayh> That's les's thinking on 'em.
[21:48:45] <Jymmm> paul_c thats how I took it... ray has a pack of em in the freezer too
[21:48:45] <jmkasunich> my stepson is 21 and at Navy boot camp ;-)
[21:49:07] <Jymmm> jmkasunich san diego?
[21:49:12] <rayh> These are large sausage that you soak in beer, barbecue and then drink.
[21:49:32] <Jymmm> rayh oh, well... wheres the fun in that?
[21:49:37] <jmkasunich> Great Lakes ILL (they shut SD down some time ago, all basic is now at Great Lakes)
[21:50:01] <Jymmm> jmkasunich oh really, I'm surprised. GL must suck =)
[21:50:03] <paul_c> jmkasunich: You have a problem with some of the hal driver source code.
[21:50:27] <jmkasunich> right now I have a problem with tck/tk actuallyt
[21:50:49] <alex_joni_> paul_c: is that hal driver or hal drivers ?
[21:51:07] <jmkasunich> so what is the problem?
[21:51:08] <paul_c> plural
[21:51:26] <rayh> Jymmm: Drinking, I think!
[21:51:26] <ValarQ> hello mr Kasunic
[21:51:33] <jmkasunich> hello
[21:51:47] <paul_c> the Mesa files - No copyright headers, and from what I see, not GPL compatable license either.
[21:51:55] <rayh> I could not get EMC2 to run with bdi-4.29 at all.
[21:51:57] <jmkasunich> mesa?
[21:52:14] <paul_c> m5i20 & Co.
[21:52:23] <jmkasunich> not mine
[21:52:39] <jmkasunich> I don't think so anyway
[21:52:46] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich digs thru his memory
[21:52:54] <rayh> ah sod the bitching.
[21:52:58] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: i'm working on a hal component for the serialport, do you know if it has been done before?
[21:53:02] <alex_joni_> * Copyright (C) 2005 Peter G. Vavaroutsos <pete AT vavaroutsos DOT com>
[21:53:02] <alex_joni_> *
[21:53:02] <alex_joni_> * $RCSfile: hal_m5i20.c,v $
[21:53:02] <alex_joni_> * $Author: petev $
[21:53:02] <alex_joni_> * $Locker: $
[21:53:02] <alex_joni_> * $Revision: 1.1 $
[21:53:04] <alex_joni_> * $State: Exp $
[21:53:06] <alex_joni_> * $Date: 2005/07/12 18:26:42 $
[21:53:08] <alex_joni_>
[21:53:11] <rayh> Mesa said we could and that was good enough for us.
[21:53:19] <alex_joni_> ValarQ: HAL component no, real-time serial yes (part of rtai)
[21:53:33] <jmkasunich> ValarQ: what alex said
[21:54:03] <paul_c> There needs to be explict copyright info in all files.
[21:54:18] <ValarQ> good, then i don't reinvent the wheel
[21:54:19] <paul_c> That includes any VHDL sources.
[21:54:43] <alex_joni_> ValarQ: but an HAL module would be handy
[21:54:44] <alex_joni_> although I'm not sure how you mean to do that
[21:54:45] <ValarQ> (i only destroy my hardware...)
[21:55:01] <ValarQ> alex_joni_: well, i'm not sure myself yet
[21:55:08] <alex_joni_> HAL is for signals
[21:55:08] <alex_joni_> not sure how you translate that to serial
[21:55:20] <ValarQ> alex_joni_: i only know that i need one for quite specific uses
[21:55:20] <alex_joni_> maybe if you have 2 systems (both HAL) connected through serial
[21:55:26] <alex_joni_> but that's a bitch to implement :D
[21:55:53] <alex_joni_> huh.. talking to a friend just now
[21:55:55] <ValarQ> alex_joni_: i need to read some data in a specific format, update some values and trig some functions
[21:56:27] <alex_joni_> they are getting a robot cell with 4 robots (4 x 18000 kg )
[21:56:44] <alex_joni_> then it's doable (but only if you keep it very specific)
[21:56:52] <ValarQ> HAL-CrapPerspectiveBreaker
[21:57:11] <ValarQ> sounds good...
[21:58:06] <alex_joni_> crap-hal-ic
[21:58:08] <jmkasunich> as far as I'm concerned the VHDL code is "data" that is downloaded to configure the hardware, not part of the software. There is nothing wrong with GPL code running on proprietary hardware (intel doesn't GPL Pentium microcode)
[21:58:38] <jmkasunich> in this case the VHDL is part of the proprietary hardware
[21:59:25] <paul_c> if the VHDL sources are proprietory, then they have no place in CVS
[21:59:56] <paul_c> Nor can you ship the derived binaries as part of a GPL driver
[22:00:39] <jmkasunich> give me a break. If you have gripes with it, take it up with PeteV or with the maker of the card
[22:02:05] <rayh> Well it is possible to step back just a bit from what Pete
[22:02:12] <rayh> V did.
[22:02:33] <rayh> You can load hostmot directly from the mesa stuff without shipping it with a deb
[22:02:56] <rayh> If you decide that that deb must contain only stuff compiled from open source code.
[22:03:01] <paul_c> jmkasunich: If you don't want to be seen as project leader....
[22:03:54] <rayh> Mesa did write me a little Linux loader for their card. I'm certain that they would allow me to open source it.
[22:04:26] <Jymmm> mesa == fpga ?
[22:04:45] <paul_c> firmware loaders are part of a standard kernel mechanism.
[22:04:47] <rayh> paul_c: were you able to compile emc2 with 4.29?
[22:04:53] <jmkasunich> first issue: why did Pete put the VHDL sources (not the 1_meg .h with the compiled VHDL) into CVS? Is it because the owner of it said "open source this"? If so, we just add GPL header and done
[22:04:57] <rayh> If so, what were the tricks?
[22:05:23] <paul_c> But there are clear guidelines when it comes to files like m5i20_HM5-E.h
[22:05:30] <rayh> The mesa loader had a bunch of extra test and configuration stuff
[22:05:44] <jmkasunich> where are the guidelines?
[22:06:16] <paul_c> Have a look at LDD - Firmware.
[22:06:50] <Jymmm> * Jymmm notes... I can claim copyright and still offer any licensing I want.
[22:07:32] <paul_c> page 405 for starters.
[22:08:04] <jmkasunich> reading that now
[22:09:03] <jmkasunich> yuck
[22:09:18] <paul_c> <kernel source>/Documentation/firmware_class/README
[22:09:57] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands the class action lawsuit attorenys jmkasunich's contact info.
[22:10:20] <paul_c> Jymmm: Exactly the issue that needs to be avoided.
[22:10:41] <Jymmm> paul_c I know... just such a PITA.
[22:11:28] <paul_c> and one reason I feel it quite reasonable to insist on clear copyright/licence info on ALL files.
[22:12:02] <anonimasu> icee: yep
[22:12:06] <anonimasu> err yep..
[22:12:09] <anonimasu> that's a sane thing to do
[22:12:45] <jmkasunich> how old is the hotplug interface?
[22:12:49] <rayh> paul_c: why the fsck can't I run emc2 with 4.29
[22:13:27] <jmkasunich> 4.29 has a 2.6.12 kernel, that may be related
[22:13:55] <rayh> I've almost got 4.29 reloaded here after the 4.30 crash
[22:13:56] <jmkasunich> scratch that, not the kernel version, but the RTAI that goes with it is different
[22:14:41] <jmkasunich> initial attempts with 2.6.12.2 some months ago brought to light a RTAI bug. Paulo has fixed that, and I think the 4.29/30 kernel uses a newer RTAI
[22:14:47] <paul_c> jmkasunich: That shm bug has been fixed.
[22:15:10] <jmkasunich> I just said as much
[22:15:38] <anonimasu> ah well
[22:15:40] <anonimasu> laters everyone
[22:15:52] <jmkasunich> but the fact remains that ray is probably the first one to attempt emc2 on 4.29/2.6.12.whatever, so who knows what else is lurking
[22:15:58] <anonimasu> thanks for the electronic help earlier also
[22:16:10] <jmkasunich> you're welcome, hope it works
[22:16:26] <anonimasu> I do too
[22:16:27] <anonimasu> :)
[22:16:45] <alex_joni_> anonimasu: how's weather over there?
[22:17:03] <paul_c> rayh: emc2 will compile (with a few minor warnings).
[22:17:22] <jmkasunich> re: the firmware thing, we're gonna have to find out from PeteV the terms under which the firmware was released
[22:17:59] <rayh> I couldn't get it to run a all however.
[22:18:11] <jmkasunich> I'd look into it, but I'm still running 2.6.10 (BDI-4.27) and I can't get past ./configure because of the tcl/tk versioning mess
[22:18:48] <rayh> Could you explain that version message to me?
[22:18:57] <paul_c> jmkasunich: apt-cdrom add
[22:18:58] <Jymmm> Question... Is there anything on SF itself that states that any content submitted to a project is implied GPL unless otherwise stated? I only aks becasue I would suspect that everyone would be putting up non-gpl source code
[22:19:08] <paul_c> apt-get install tk8.4-dev
[22:19:22] <alex_joni_> Jymmm: it's not a SF issue
[22:19:27] <alex_joni_> most of the emc1 is not GPL
[22:19:29] <paul_c> alex_joni_: Yes it IS
[22:19:37] <alex_joni_> some of it is PD, some even stranger
[22:19:41] <jmkasunich> paul: tried that, and posted the error message when it didn't work
[22:19:46] <paul_c> Open Source development.
[22:20:00] <alex_joni_> open source != gpl
[22:20:05] <K`zan> Got a good download of the Live iso and the 4.30 iso, so today we get to burn CDs again :)
[22:20:26] <rayh> There are many different licenses that fall within the SF guidelines besides the gpl.
[22:20:28] <paul_c> alex_joni_: but GPL == open source
[22:20:33] <alex_joni_> right
[22:20:54] <jmkasunich> hmmm... actually I tried it without the CDROM
[22:20:59] <paul_c> but not all "Open Source" is within the spirit of GPL
[22:21:02] <jmkasunich> I thought everything was online
[22:21:11] <paul_c> nor is some of it FOSS
[22:21:13] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks for CD
[22:21:14] <Jymmm> BSD Licensing!!! WooHoo
[22:21:32] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands jmkasunich 'Dark side of the moon'
[22:22:07] <K`zan> Anyone know which polarity on the lp pin indicates CCW /CW command? No luck in finding that ;-(.
[22:22:08] <paul_c> Some M$ code is "Open Source", but you still can't do anything with it.
[22:22:31] <jmkasunich> we're mixing issues anyway
[22:22:53] <Jymmm> * Jymmm commits the Windows 2000 source code to cvs
[22:22:58] <jmkasunich> the firmware mechanism outlined in the docs Paul mentioned doesn't care whether the firmware is open or not, it just loads
[22:23:12] <cradek> K`zan: if your motors turn the wrong way, you can invert it in the ini file
[22:23:26] <cradek> K`zan: I know that's actually not the answer, but it means "don't worry about it"
[22:23:29] <jmkasunich> the issue seems to be that Pete didn't use that mechanism, instead he incorporated the firmware into the driver source
[22:23:54] <jmkasunich> in that case, the firmware gets contaminated with GPL
[22:23:55] <K`zan> cradek: Now that makes sense :-). Thanks. I think you are right, building a controller is not all that horrid, looking into it more as I get more of an understanding :-).
[22:23:59] <Jymmm> so, an email will clarify everything, correct?
[22:24:16] <cradek> K`zan: I had great luck with the drivers I built (pointer on my web site timeguy.com)
[22:24:33] <cradek> K`zan: they are overengineered in all the right ways, unlike xylotex and friends
[22:24:41] <K`zan> Thanks, checking now.
[22:24:54] <Jymmm> cradek well, hurry up and make a 3 axis one =)
[22:25:00] <paul_c> emc2 compiles and starts up here.
[22:25:04] <cradek> K`zan: they are all single sided PCBs so they are simple to homebrew
[22:25:11] <K`zan> Nice kitty :-)
[22:25:20] <K`zan> That makes life a lot simpler :-)!
[22:25:25] <cradek> K`zan: thanks, he's a good buddy
[22:25:28] <paul_c> 2.6.12.6-magma #1 Thu Sep 29 00:08:05 BST 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
[22:26:06] <K`zan> Speaking of Kitties, I need to go bottle my "Cally Cat Purr Stout" today :-). When it was fermenting it sounded like Cally Purring ( LOUD and CONTINOUS :).
[22:26:27] <cradek> yikes
[22:26:43] <K`zan> My first stout :-). Based on a Coopers Kit.
[22:27:11] <K`zan> Gonna be FAR more alky than I really want in a beer, but even green it tastes pretty decent.
[22:28:03] <K`zan> LOL, I thought it was that the first 50% of a project takes 90% of the time and the last half takes the other 90% ;-)
[22:28:31] <rayh> Thanks for the test paul. I'll try it here as soon as I get finished installing.
[22:28:59] <alex_joni_> K`zan: it was that teh first 90% of a project take 10% of the time, and the last 10% take 90% of the time ;)
[22:29:16] <jmkasunich> found the CDROM, now it works.... so there are Tk related .debs on the disk that don't live in an online repository?
[22:29:19] <alex_joni_> bbiab
[22:29:32] <K`zan> alex_joni_: LOL, you haven't worked where I have, obviously ;-) LOL
[22:29:51] <jmkasunich> right - you're version is far more accurate
[22:30:57] <rayh> Somewhere in the various deb releases was a decision to compile tcltk with multithreading.
[22:31:03] <jmkasunich> fscking cat
[22:31:17] <rayh> That would cause emcsh not to go away when you shut down the emc.
[22:31:41] <K`zan> cradek: that hub.sch file for gschem ?
[22:32:01] <cradek> "Attached below are the Eagle schematic and board file."
[22:32:05] <paul_c> rayh: Red herring - The threading problem was connected with an obscure bug in libc
[22:32:36] <K`zan> ah, requires winditz, will have to re-do it for gschem and PCB.
[22:32:47] <cradek> K`zan: no, it doesn't
[22:32:58] <K`zan> Eagle has a linux release now ?
[22:33:03] <cradek> always has
[22:33:29] <K`zan> Heh, shows how long ago I last looked at it, didn't when I looked so I just forgot it.
[22:33:50] <cradek> ah, then "always" is an overstatement
[22:33:55] <K`zan> :-)
[22:33:58] <cradek> I bought it (the linux version) several years ago
[22:34:15] <K`zan> * K`zan official old fartette :)
[22:35:20] <rayh> paul_c: So we can use the ordinary tcl/tk debs?
[22:36:08] <rayh> I'm not certain what "red herring" means on your side of the pond but here is is something that is totally unrelated to the problem at hand.
[22:36:21] <paul_c> Yes - Have been running standard deb packages for a while now.
[22:36:48] <rayh> And since killing off EMC was the task at hand, and a recompile without threading cured the problem.
[22:36:56] <jmkasunich> why the need to get tk8.4-dev from the CDROM then?
[22:36:59] <rayh> I don't see "red herring" here.
[22:37:53] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Everything you need is on the CD.
[22:38:00] <jmkasunich> I think he means the root cause of the problem wasn't really threading, it was a bug in the library.
[22:38:13] <jmkasunich> once the bug was fixed, then you could compile with threading enabled and it still works
[22:39:06] <jmkasunich> paul_c: understood, but it was actually easier to get it from online. I thought I'd get the same thing from the main repository
[22:39:08] <paul_c> and even with threading disabled in tcl/tk, it still exhibited "odd" problems.
[22:40:12] <rayh> I guess i didn't see those.
[22:40:58] <Jymmm> I'm im going to mill up some mortise and tenor joints out of a single sheet of 2/4" MDF, what kind of allowance do I need to give?
[22:40:58] <K`zan> cradek: Cool, got it downloaded, gonna play with it some and see how it stacks up against gschem/pcb before shelling out coins.
[22:41:05] <paul_c> * paul_c had quite a long chat with Don Porter (Tcl/Tk developer) about threads
[22:41:27] <cradek> K`zan: for a certain size of board, you can use it free if you do not sell your boards.
[22:41:40] <cradek> K`zan: I'm not sure what the limit is.
[22:41:41] <rayh> There is an update to tcl/tk in the debs since the bdi releases.
[22:42:04] <paul_c> Ran strace on threaded and non-threaded tcl/tk libs and watched both builds blow up.
[22:42:50] <jmkasunich> ray: here's what happened when I tried to apt-get tk8.4-dev without doing apt-cdrom first:
[22:42:55] <rayh> Is this the current versions that did this.
[22:43:03] <jmkasunich> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[22:43:12] <jmkasunich> tk8.4-dev: Depends: tcl8.4-dev (>= 8.4.2) but it is not going to be installed
[22:43:22] <jmkasunich> Depends: tk8.4 (= 8.4.9-1) but 8.4.11-2 is to be installed
[22:43:47] <rayh> So what we would need to do is fix the configure script?
[22:43:56] <jmkasunich> ?
[22:44:19] <jmkasunich> after doing the apt-cdrom add and then apt-get install tk8.4-dev, it works fine
[22:44:39] <rayh> what is it?
[22:44:41] <jmkasunich> now all my tcl/tk stuff is at 8.4.11-2, and everybody is happy
[22:44:54] <paul_c> apt-get install --reinstall tk8.4-dev
[22:45:01] <jmkasunich> oops, maybe we have two conversations going on here
[22:45:48] <jmkasunich> I had a problem when I tried to skip the apt-cdrom step - my fault, not a bug or BDI issue
[22:46:25] <rayh> If you are on line you will get a different answer to apt-get install --reinstall tk8.4-dev than if you are off line and have the apt-cdrom in the sources.list
[22:46:34] <jmkasunich> exactly
[22:46:47] <K`zan> What is an "ER Spindle" ?!? (looking at Taig CNC additions).
[22:47:12] <jmkasunich> K'zan: I think ER is a style of collets, so an ER spindle would be one that accepts those collets
[22:47:37] <Jymmm> look at sherlines COMMERCIAL stuff
[22:49:13] <K`zan> AH, ok thanks, a real collet system rather than a drill chuck.
[22:51:21] <rayh> Gotta get outa here for a bit. There is a fish calling my name.
[22:51:49] <paul_c> ER16 collets...
[22:53:03] <jmkasunich> the alex clones just keep appearing ;-)
[22:53:12] <alex_joni> right
[22:53:43] <Jymmm> ray what about the pack or brats in the freezer?
[22:53:48] <Jymmm> s/or/of/
[22:54:21] <jmkasunich> he's gone
[22:54:25] <alex_joni> they are preparing for the bbq
[22:54:33] <jmkasunich> the fish might be swimming in the lake, not cooking on the grill
[22:54:54] <alex_joni> not yet at least
[22:59:53] <les> I'm cooking up steak,on cherry wood scraps from the shop as allways
[23:00:03] <les> always
[23:00:12] <alex_joni> les: no fishes around?
[23:01:53] <les> have some snapper in the freezer
[23:01:53] <paul_c> * paul_c has a driver for a DSP card to write. maybe back later.
[23:02:04] <jmkasunich> bye paul
[23:02:40] <Jymmm> les that's ok, ray has a pack of brats in the freezer he's gonna bbq later....
[23:03:01] <Jymmm> les poor child labor laws are not what they used to be
[23:03:58] <alex_joni> les: a great way to bbq a fish
[23:04:17] <les> child labor? one of my workers id 76 years old!!
[23:04:21] <alex_joni> wrap it up in a few newspapers (about 7-8 sheets)
[23:04:30] <les> and?
[23:04:34] <alex_joni> then stick it in water
[23:04:45] <alex_joni> but before that, you need to clean the fish as usual
[23:04:57] <alex_joni> and stuck his belly full of greens
[23:04:57] <Jymmm> les: No, ray's using child labor, then when they are no long useful in freezes then in packs and bbq's them.
[23:05:22] <alex_joni> afterthe newpapers are wet, simply put it on the bbq
[23:05:29] <alex_joni> and turn it over once in a while
[23:05:30] <les> hmm sounds good alex
[23:05:34] <les> I like fish
[23:05:39] <alex_joni> till it almost burns (the newpaper I mean)
[23:05:41] <les> I grew up on the water
[23:05:43] <alex_joni> it'll be wicked
[23:05:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni did that to a salmon
[23:05:57] <les> mmm
[23:06:06] <jmkasunich> I'd suggest brown kraft paper tho (shopping bags), newspaper ink probably doesn't so much for the flavor
[23:06:06] <alex_joni> turned out better than I had ever dreamed
[23:06:18] <Jymmm> banna leaves
[23:06:23] <Jymmm> bannana
[23:06:31] <les> I am going to get a boat and do some fishing next spring
[23:06:37] <les> too busy now!
[23:06:44] <les> could use some time off
[23:07:10] <Jymmm> les Come on down les, I'll take you to Alamden reservor... it's the old Amadena quick silver mine!
[23:07:22] <jmkasunich> lol
[23:07:23] <les> oh great
[23:07:31] <les> like the great lakes
[23:07:46] <jmkasunich> lakes are much better
[23:07:52] <Jymmm> les you no like minerals in your seafood?
[23:08:01] <les> it's pretty clean now, but the salmon has lots of mercury in the flank meat
[23:08:17] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't eat bottom fish from the lakes, but perch and walleye, yum
[23:08:30] <jmkasunich> the nasties are mostly tied up in the bottom sediments now
[23:08:53] <les> we actually have walleye in the mountain lakes now
[23:11:36] <les> I am more used to florida ocean fishing though...snapper grouper and sea trout
[23:12:59] <les> I have to decide whether tommorow will be an office or shop day
[23:13:11] <les> plenty of work in both
[23:13:31] <Jymmm> damnit... I cna't find a 1/4" to 1/8" collect adapter locally
[23:13:35] <Jymmm> collet
[23:13:40] <les> let's see...office stuff is the squeaky wheel
[23:14:10] <les> I bought er25 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 collets for a start
[23:14:15] <Jymmm> les you know... massive quantities of flamage will fix squeaky wheel in office.
[23:14:47] <Jymmm> les Well, Bosch doens't offer 1/8" collets, so I need to find an adapter.
[23:14:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[23:14:55] <Jymmm> G'Night alex_joni
[23:14:57] <alex_joni> got an early plane to catch
[23:15:00] <alex_joni> night guys
[23:15:07] <les> I need to blast out that final report on the aquisition
[23:15:12] <les> night alex
[23:15:30] <Jymmm> If I can find it at sears, I cna buy it today.
[23:15:31] <les> oh and call about the vfd
[23:18:17] <les> I am still imagining that big 42 mm er25 collet nut spinning around at 24,000rpm
[23:18:43] <Jymmm> heh
[23:18:57] <Jymmm> les you see the first "part" I made?
[23:19:10] <les> yes, Imhotep.
[23:19:51] <les> googling it aren't you?
[23:19:58] <les> carry on
[23:19:59] <les> haha
[23:20:11] <Jymmm> say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
[23:20:18] <K`zan> les: Just split it up so it is entertaining :)
[23:20:55] <les> google imhotep, zosser, dsoser
[23:21:04] <les> and you will see.
[23:22:40] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[23:22:51] <Jymmm> that you were in the music room a lil early today =)
[23:22:58] <Jymmm> thought you were in the music room a lil early today =)
[23:23:05] <les> heh
[23:24:26] <les> I was in the music room earlier...housecleaning!
[23:24:45] <Jymmm> cleaning up the 200 bear bottles maybe
[23:24:48] <Jymmm> beer
[23:24:57] <les> someone has to do it...
[23:25:00] <Jymmm> beer drinking bears
[23:26:50] <Jymmm> bah, I was about to make a Harley Davidson sign, but I need to use a smaller bit, and the ones I have are on 1/8" shank! argh
[23:27:04] <jmkasunich> dinner time
[23:27:08] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich is now known as jmk_away
[23:27:12] <les> yup
[23:27:22] <les> I must eat steak.
[23:27:26] <Jymmm> les FYI...
[23:27:32] <les> yes?
[23:27:53] <Jymmm> les I saw some roto-zip DOWNCUT bits the other day.... 10-pack fo $8
[23:28:23] <les> never tried em
[23:28:32] <les> must run at a lower rpm?
[23:28:44] <Jymmm> rotozip is like 30K
[23:28:56] <Jymmm> iirc
[23:29:10] <les> I'm surprized they don't whip
[23:29:27] <Jymmm> why says they don't? lol
[23:29:44] <Jymmm> just thought I'd mention it, I'll try when I get a collet adapter.
[23:30:32] <les> I hope my chip pickup will be improved with the new floating brushes with long bits
[23:30:47] <Jymmm> les post some pics
[23:30:52] <les> biaw
[23:30:55] <les> I will
[23:30:57] <Jymmm> k
[23:52:45] <K`zan> gonna check out the live emc, bbiaf.
[23:57:18] <les> hello cncwright
[23:57:38] <cnc_wright> Howdy...been a long time for me
[23:57:45] <les> yeah
[23:58:36] <cnc_wright> I have to see if I can figure out what my password is...My irc auto enters it.
[23:58:47] <les> heh
[23:59:34] <cnc_wright> When I left of I need to figure out a ball screw solution...thats where I'm starting again.