#emc | Logs for 2005-10-11

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[00:01:53] <anonimasu> hey les
[00:01:56] <anonimasu> how's things going
[00:02:02] <les> hello
[00:02:08] <Jacky^> hi les
[00:02:15] <les> ok relaxing after work
[00:02:19] <les> hi jacky
[00:02:31] <Jacky^> relax ? good :)
[00:03:06] <les> jyymm and I made a mess at the pumapaint site
[00:03:19] <les> you know..web controlled robot
[00:03:23] <anonimasu> neither would targeting be..hehe
[00:03:26] <les> funny...
[00:03:27] <anonimasu> whoops wrong place..
[00:03:29] <anonimasu> yeah :9
[00:03:35] <anonimasu> I just picked the mill 90% apart..
[00:03:41] <anonimasu> the gearbox was in good condition..
[00:03:41] <les> really
[00:04:03] <les> oh good
[00:04:11] <anonimasu> yeah, but it's going away
[00:04:11] <anonimasu> ;)
[00:04:26] <les> for higher speed?
[00:04:37] <anonimasu> yeah
[00:04:39] <anonimasu> and less noise
[00:05:12] <les> spur gears do make a lot of noise
[00:05:36] <anonimasu> and vibration..
[00:05:40] <anonimasu> that's the worst thing..
[00:05:50] <anonimasu> but I kind of gave up
[00:05:58] <anonimasu> I ended up making tools to get the gear selector out ;)
[00:06:25] <les> heh
[00:07:16] <anonimasu> I could have welded something there and just hit it out, but I didnt want to weld since I were about to go inside again
[00:07:38] <les> especially if anything was cast iron
[00:07:50] <anonimasu> yep
[00:07:52] <anonimasu> but not the shaft ;M)
[00:07:56] <anonimasu> but it's very hard..
[00:08:11] <anonimasu> either that or the drillbit was dull
[00:09:18] <les> I had to dril 12 mm holes in 12 mm thick steel with a small hand drill to mount the buxket forks on my new tractor
[00:09:29] <les> really some reinforcing
[00:09:37] <anonimasu> :/
[00:10:18] <les> it's not a f pick up about 500 kgorklift, but it should now easily
[00:10:24] <anonimasu> les: you read my specs earlier right?
[00:10:26] <les> oops
[00:10:31] <les> what happened?
[00:10:37] <anonimasu> earlier?
[00:10:49] <anonimasu> I wrote about my kw at 10k/rpm
[00:11:00] <les> oh yeah
[00:11:13] <anonimasu> that seems pretty sane dosent it?
[00:11:13] <les> no I just hit a wrong key haha
[00:11:41] <anonimasu> :)
[00:11:47] <les> well one really needs high speed machining these days
[00:12:22] <anonimasu> I want surface finishes.. most..
[00:12:27] <anonimasu> even if my parts take 5 hours it dosent matter..
[00:12:39] <anonimasu> as long as I can trust the machine to cut them..
[00:13:18] <les> right
[00:13:30] <anonimasu> having a 5 hour job and being afraid of it becomming scrap keeps me from having long jobs..
[00:13:57] <les> longest cnc job I can reacall was about 100 hrs
[00:14:07] <les> continuous
[00:14:09] <anonimasu> les: do you think that spindle will be enough to cut alu with?
[00:14:21] <les> well sure
[00:14:28] <anonimasu> at moderate feeds..
[00:14:44] <les> how many kW?
[00:14:48] <anonimasu> 5
[00:15:40] <anonimasu> 2800rpm * 1.7
[00:15:59] <anonimasu> + about double the speed off the vfd..
[00:16:27] <les> that ought to run a 6 mm bit at feeds of 2 cm /sec or so
[00:16:36] <anonimasu> ends up about 2.9kw at the spindle..
[00:16:49] <anonimasu> but about 2 since I have to overdrive it .. to avoid gearing too much
[00:17:02] <les> plenty of power, so use a 4 flute
[00:17:05] <anonimasu> that's insane..
[00:17:06] <anonimasu> :D
[00:17:40] <les> 2800*sqrt3*2?
[00:18:01] <anonimasu> wait a sec
[00:19:07] <anonimasu> hm, my calc says 9699.48
[00:19:18] <les> wow
[00:19:34] <les> tapered roller bearings won't like that...
[00:19:54] <anonimasu> I cant remember what kind of bearings there were.. really
[00:20:15] <anonimasu> I can always switch them to match..
[00:20:22] <les> yeah
[00:20:33] <anonimasu> wont matter too much if I spec them at skf..
[00:20:47] <les> I notice the colombo has only very light preload
[00:20:50] <anonimasu> I am pretty sure they'll get bearings that'll handle it :)
[00:20:52] <les> spins freely
[00:21:08] <anonimasu> I am looking at taking light DOC with high feedrates..
[00:21:17] <les> and it's db with a spacer so preload will degrease further with heat
[00:21:26] <anonimasu> ~3m/min...
[00:22:09] <les> 5 kw might do a DOC equal to tool diameter at high feed
[00:22:10] <anonimasu> nice :)
[00:22:19] <anonimasu> hm nice
[00:22:37] <les> lots of coolant
[00:22:56] <les> you are not in the HSM area where chips are the coolant
[00:23:02] <anonimasu> yep..
[00:23:07] <les> mist will work
[00:23:15] <anonimasu> mist isnt practical..
[00:23:21] <anonimasu> I tried running mist..
[00:23:25] <anonimasu> it worked great.. :)
[00:23:31] <anonimasu> but the shop got too foggy
[00:23:33] <les> what, you don't like to breathe the coolant?
[00:23:38] <les> haha
[00:23:43] <anonimasu> yeah, wd40 stings ;)
[00:24:01] <anonimasu> maybe I'll machine submerged.. later on..
[00:24:06] <les> try a cols air gun
[00:24:12] <les> cold
[00:24:17] <anonimasu> tried that works good
[00:24:22] <anonimasu> but coolant is better :)
[00:24:30] <les> we make them
[00:24:37] <anonimasu> submerged would be nice..
[00:24:37] <anonimasu> make them?
[00:24:47] <les> cold air guns yes
[00:24:49] <anonimasu> ah
[00:24:50] <anonimasu> )
[00:25:16] <anonimasu> the reason I am not running flood coolant is just the coolant evacuation..
[00:25:53] <anonimasu> but as soon as I can make new servomounts.. I can build a encolsure, and shield the motors..
[00:25:57] <anonimasu> properly
[00:25:59] <les> I usually run dry even though the machines have pumps
[00:26:11] <anonimasu> hm, I dont have the KW for it yet
[00:26:17] <les> it's a mess, and it rusts things
[00:26:32] <anonimasu> I've used compressed air and it worked good
[00:26:46] <anonimasu> but feeds & speeds are hard when you are limited in torque
[00:26:50] <les> I use that on the router
[00:27:43] <anonimasu> if I can take 6mm cuts with 3mm doc I am more then happy
[00:27:48] <les> blah I have to use 3 conductor 6 mm^2 high flex wire to the spindle
[00:27:56] <les> fat wire
[00:28:12] <anonimasu> :)
[00:28:17] <les> we call it 8 gage
[00:29:16] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[00:30:26] <les> I have to find some of that stuff.
[00:30:32] <les> shielded
[00:31:03] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[00:31:06] <anonimasu> that shouldnt be too hard
[00:31:25] <les> not a lot of room left in the igus conduit either
[00:31:46] <les> also have to run a separate 240v 60 hz for the cooling fan
[00:32:19] <anonimasu> 240v how do you get that over there?
[00:33:09] <les> our standard voltages are 120 and 240 single phase, and 240 and 480 open delta 3 phase
[00:33:23] <anonimasu> ah
[00:33:27] <anonimasu> I thought you only had 110v
[00:33:36] <les> sometimes wye 380
[00:34:28] <anonimasu> *ponders about building a accelometer sensor package
[00:34:58] <les> I have a whole box of analog devices sensors
[00:35:04] <les> they are pretty good
[00:35:28] <anonimasu> :)
[00:35:48] <anonimasu> +/-2g
[00:36:16] <les> +/- .5 to 10g I think
[00:36:17] <anonimasu> that should be plenty
[00:36:58] <les> well the AD devices are good...omly .01g noise
[00:37:07] <anonimasu> I cant get thoose here :/
[00:37:18] <les> ah
[00:37:41] <anonimasu> just
[00:37:42] <les> well a piezo if you don't need dc response
[00:37:48] <anonimasu> ADXL202
[00:38:08] <anonimasu> hm, I need a duty cycle output
[00:38:25] <les> I forgot the number I have...AD gave me a bunch at an automation show
[00:38:34] <anonimasu> hm ok
[00:38:42] <les> analog to PWM is easy
[00:39:09] <anonimasu> I was thinking avr + the accelometer + a 2 wire interface..
[00:39:12] <les> just a triangle wave generator and comparator
[00:39:26] <anonimasu> for communicating with a multiplexer..
[00:39:43] <anonimasu> so I can log like 24 channels ;)
[00:40:19] <les> oh for cars...
[00:40:23] <anonimasu> yeah..
[00:41:01] <les> I had lots of accelerometers on a laptop on that last NVH job I did for ford
[00:41:17] <anonimasu> veichle dynamics..
[00:41:59] <les> this was just to make the car feel good...not improved performance
[00:42:05] <anonimasu> x/y/z accelometer..
[00:42:15] <anonimasu> :)
[00:42:15] <les> they wanted "numb and dumb" steering
[00:42:23] <anonimasu> bleh :/
[00:42:25] <les> for little old ladies
[00:42:49] <anonimasu> that's like my mother's golf..
[00:42:54] <anonimasu> the car is nice and all..
[00:43:00] <anonimasu> but once you push it a bit it's _dead_
[00:43:15] <les> oh a golf was a gocart compared to this
[00:43:34] <anonimasu> heh
[00:44:04] <anonimasu> ?
[00:44:18] <les> I never made any measurements on the BMW...but it feels good
[00:44:29] <les> has a little body roll though
[00:44:34] <anonimasu> it's not numb and dumb is it?
[00:44:43] <les> oh no!!!
[00:44:46] <anonimasu> well that can actually make the ride nicer..
[00:45:09] <les> my truck has horrible handling though
[00:45:17] <les> but it's a pickup truck
[00:45:18] <anonimasu> I like cars that make you feel good when you push them a bit in a tight corner..
[00:45:43] <les> push is the word with my truck
[00:45:46] <anonimasu> sane suspension geometry and stuff like that.. dosent have to be anything spectacular..
[00:45:52] <les> huge understeer as usual
[00:46:48] <les> the BMW is neutral statically, oversteer throttle on, understeer throttle off
[00:47:06] <les> must step on pedal to swing around curves
[00:47:13] <anonimasu> that's the way my toyota handles..
[00:47:25] <anonimasu> although that's awd and 50/50 split ;)
[00:47:56] <les> But I drive slow now. If I want to pull g I get in an airplane.
[00:48:07] <anonimasu> if you ever drop the pedal if it's slippery outside you end up in a tree..
[00:48:26] <les> pull your socks down in your shoes!
[00:48:36] <anonimasu> ?
[00:48:42] <les> airplanes.
[00:48:58] <anonimasu> lol thoose are toys I'll never get to play with..
[00:49:12] <les> I can only rent them.
[00:49:37] <anonimasu> :)
[00:49:48] <cradek> my new VW is my first front wheel drive
[00:50:16] <cradek> I know it's better in bad weather, but I miss how RWD feels accelerating around corners
[00:50:22] <anonimasu> cradek: what were the other ones?
[00:50:23] <les> I had an Audi 100 Chris...it was very good in the snow...FWD
[00:50:24] <cradek> maybe I'll get used to it?
[00:50:53] <cradek> anonimasu: 91 Toyota MR2 (highly recommended) - 01 Mustang (piece of shit)
[00:51:13] <anonimasu> mr2's are nice :)
[00:51:16] <cradek> anonimasu: now 03 VW GTI VR6
[00:51:18] <les> The BMW is horrible in the snow
[00:51:25] <les> forget freeway on ramps
[00:51:37] <cradek> yeah I sorely miss it, but it was going to need an engine soon.
[00:51:47] <anonimasu> was it a turbo or non turbo?
[00:51:50] <les> the mr2?
[00:51:54] <cradek> non-turbo
[00:51:55] <cradek> les: yes
[00:52:01] <anonimasu> ah ok
[00:52:13] <cradek> anonimasu: got 26 mpg no matter what I did
[00:52:20] <cradek> anonimasu: a great car.
[00:52:21] <anonimasu> how much is that?
[00:52:33] <anonimasu> the engine in the turbo is the same as in my toyota :)
[00:52:36] <cradek> pretty good, especially in 91
[00:52:43] <anonimasu> much/litres
[00:52:45] <les> oooh conversion to km/liter..
[00:52:48] <anonimasu> I cant calc mpg
[00:53:04] <cradek> % units 26miles/gal liters/1000km
[00:53:06] <cradek> * 90.467147
[00:53:09] <anonimasu> I am running about 0.9 mixed..
[00:53:26] <cradek> is that the number you guys use?
[00:53:34] <anonimasu> litres
[00:53:46] <cradek> err, /100km?
[00:53:48] <cradek> =9
[00:54:16] <anonimasu> per 10km's..
[00:54:43] <cradek> litres/10km = 0.9
[00:55:10] <anonimasu> although somtimes it's about 2 litres.. ;)
[00:55:16] <cradek> but compared to the MR2 the VW is a rocket
[00:55:26] <les> glad I got a diesel tractor...if things get bad I can grow fuel.
[00:55:29] <cradek> just wish it handled like a mid-engine RWD
[00:55:48] <anonimasu> nothing does :)
[00:56:31] <cradek> but a V6 with a 6-speed in a tiny car is kind of nice.
[00:56:55] <les> pocket rocket?
[00:57:50] <cradek> yep
[00:57:55] <cradek> I guess that's what they call it
[00:58:19] <anonimasu> :)
[00:58:31] <anonimasu> * anonimasu needs to build a huydralics test rig tomorrow
[00:59:12] <les> car talk...you are making me think about audis again
[00:59:22] <anonimasu> but I would have need the mill to machine a position sensor mount
[00:59:30] <anonimasu> wire + encoder + spring
[00:59:48] <les> I have that fixed...bugeted a bunch for shop upgrade
[01:00:03] <anonimasu> encoders?
[01:00:04] <les> then not enough left for audis!!
[01:00:08] <anonimasu> hehe
[01:00:38] <les> but a few thousand kg more iron!!
[01:01:08] <les> (and another building to put it in)
[01:01:45] <les> was reading back
[01:01:52] <les> buget?
[01:01:53] <anonimasu> hehe
[01:01:56] <les> budget
[01:02:03] <les> new word
[01:02:39] <anonimasu> haha
[01:04:03] <les> you know...I can't type...but some day in the far future technology will be developed where we can actually HEAR each other's voices!!!
[01:04:15] <K`zan> LOL
[01:05:27] <tziOm> hey! first time here! machine in the works!! :)
[01:05:37] <les> welcome!
[01:05:37] <tziOm> planning for some years now!
[01:05:48] <Jacky^> hey
[01:05:53] <Jacky^> tele2 ?
[01:05:55] <Jacky^> wow
[01:06:04] <tziOm> ..and I have a question for you guys.
[01:06:23] <cradek> hello tzi
[01:06:32] <Jacky^> :)
[01:06:50] <tziOm> About home/limit .. EMC's "EMC external interface" says: "the switches cat cause an emergency stop cannot be used for homing"
[01:06:54] <tziOm> is that so?
[01:07:23] <tziOm> Jacky - same provider, different countries..
[01:07:35] <les> I do use separate home and limit switches
[01:07:39] <Jacky^> tziOm: nice, where are you reading ? wich doc ?
[01:07:52] <cradek> we have documentation?
[01:07:56] <les> haha
[01:07:59] <tziOm> hehe..
[01:08:06] <cradek> holy crap, tell me where it is
[01:08:19] <tziOm> its: http://www.linuxcnc.org/Dropbox/extinf.html
[01:08:53] <cradek> cool
[01:09:20] <tziOm> What I would want is to only have two switchs on each axis .. and home&limit beeing the same, with home set to negative number, moving to 0 after hitting switch..
[01:09:42] <tziOm> but according to this doc that aint possible
[01:10:11] <les> I have home about 2 cm in front of limit on one side
[01:10:22] <les> but home can be anywhere really
[01:11:01] <Jacky^> emc2 seem have many different ways to get home position ..
[01:11:02] <tziOm> les - but can it be the same switch? (just emcs internals knowing that it is a home switch when told to GO HOME)?
[01:11:20] <les> let me think about that...
[01:11:21] <tziOm> Jacky - where can I read bout that?
[01:11:40] <cradek> tziOm: are you trying to use emc1 or emc2?
[01:11:42] <tziOm> ..ignoring emergency stop..
[01:11:43] <Jacky^> are you interesting in emc2 ?
[01:11:58] <tziOm> cradek - dunno.. have the emc2 cvs checked out..
[01:12:08] <les> for servo systems with home arming index pulse...no I think not
[01:12:20] <Jacky^> emc2 have some nice doc about homing ..
[01:12:25] <Jacky^> let me check
[01:12:29] <cradek> * cradek has no switches at all
[01:12:33] <tziOm> im using steppers with no feedback..
[01:12:36] <tziOm> open loop.
[01:12:46] <les> limit typically fires estop...so it could not home
[01:12:51] <les> oh steppers
[01:12:57] <tziOm> cradek .. I was thinking the same .. but.. hmm..
[01:12:58] <anonimasu> hm
[01:13:15] <cradek> tziOm: I use limits to not drive the table off the mill, no more
[01:13:28] <Jacky^> tziOm: www.linuxcnc.org/EMC2_Code_Notes.pdf
[01:13:30] <cradek> tziOm: for me, home position is an arbitrary position I have marked and then jog to
[01:13:44] <cradek> tziOm: the home button for me just zeroes the axis and enables the software limits.
[01:13:55] <Jacky^> tziOm: im using optoswitches (3 for any axis)
[01:14:03] <les> I use home _offset to drive to center of travel
[01:14:13] <cradek> tziOm: in emc1 at least, you can tell it "I have no switches at all" and then HOME doesn't cause any motion
[01:14:15] <Jacky^> optos seem work fine for home, not for limit - +
[01:14:44] <Jacky^> would be a good idea, maybe use opto for central switch (home) and mechanichal for others
[01:15:02] <tziOm> I was thinking of maby hall-effect.. that way same switch could sense two positions..
[01:15:17] <les> for me, optos would get dusty
[01:15:23] <les> hall is ok
[01:15:25] <tziOm> but hey.. software should be able to understand that.
[01:15:37] <Jacky^> tziOm: page 21 of the pdf ..
[01:15:47] <cradek> does emc2 have any switch handling yet?
[01:15:53] <anonimasu> night guys..4
[01:15:55] <anonimasu> I am falling asleep
[01:15:59] <les> night
[01:16:00] <cradek> I think this seems like a reasonable thing to ask for...
[01:16:02] <Jacky^> night anonimasu
[01:16:03] <K`zan> Night, rest well
[01:16:04] <cradek> 'night anon
[01:18:03] <tziOm> any emc2 developers here that knows?
[01:18:31] <les> I use 1.
[01:18:35] <cradek> me too.
[01:18:52] <cradek> alex_joni or jmk are probably the only ones who would know.
[01:18:54] <tziOm> Jacky - seems like on page 22 => home_ignore_limits
[01:18:57] <les> I have to...I have a production machine.
[01:20:05] <tziOm> so then to some other question.. I want a circular switch that I can fix in a threaded (small as possible) hole.. any suggestions where to get good-accuracy suck switches?
[01:20:09] <Jacky^> tziOm: yeah, i meant the diagrams
[01:21:15] <tziOm> such.. :)
[01:21:19] <Jacky^> in this case, is it more simple to look how it work, that explain it :(
[01:21:56] <Jacky^> and .. anyway, im beginner user of emc2 :)
[01:25:23] <tziOm> anyone tested emc2?
[01:25:58] <Jacky^> tziOm: sure, i'm using em2
[01:26:14] <Jacky^> and, im not the only one of course ..
[01:27:00] <Jacky^> with steppers its ok, work fine
[01:27:21] <Jacky^> for servos' i dont know, never used yet
[01:27:33] <cradek> tziOm: I've tried it off and on
[01:28:09] <tziOm> Im in the process of buying a stepper-controller-board also.. have japanservo KH56KM2-802 motors.. any suggestions?
[01:28:36] <tziOm> cheap as possible ofcorse..
[01:29:14] <Jacky^> tziOm: im going to buy gecko
[01:29:25] <cradek> tziOm: you and K`zan are both looking for the same thing
[01:29:30] <tziOm> how much for 3axis gecho then?
[01:29:39] <Jymmm> $550
[01:29:46] <tziOm> was thinking of http://www.hobbycnc.com/driverboards/4aupc/4aupc.htm or http://www.xylotex.com/Unipolar.htm
[01:29:47] <Jacky^> ah Jymmm
[01:29:58] <Jacky^> Jymmm: maybe have some good alternative
[01:29:58] <tziOm> you cant pay 550 for this shit
[01:30:20] <Jymmm> tziOm then take apart some printers and copy machines.
[01:30:52] <tziOm> Was thinking of making the board myself.. its really simple and cheap.. atleast unipolar.. but $75 is ok.. even it costs like 10$ to make..
[01:31:14] <Jacky^> tziOm: why unipolars ?
[01:31:21] <Jacky^> not bipolar ?
[01:31:22] <tziOm> thats what I have..
[01:31:28] <tziOm> and they are simpler to drive
[01:31:33] <Jacky^> about motors ?
[01:31:35] <tziOm> bipolars require two h-bridges
[01:31:42] <Jacky^> mhh ..
[01:31:56] <Jacky^> are you sure unipolars are ok for you works ?
[01:32:08] <tziOm> sure.
[01:32:12] <tziOm> why shouldnt it?
[01:32:31] <les> I still use unipolars for some things
[01:32:34] <Jacky^> because unipolar winding its old ..
[01:32:47] <Jacky^> probably the first type of step motor
[01:32:53] <les> not cnc...but different situation.
[01:32:58] <Jacky^> youll get no gih performance
[01:33:04] <Jacky^> high*
[01:33:16] <Jymmm> les you see my stepdown question?
[01:33:18] <tziOm> Jacky - you can drive all unipolars bipolar
[01:33:26] <Jacky^> tziOm: how many wire you have on motors ?
[01:33:27] <tziOm> but not opposite
[01:33:31] <les> jymmm...no...
[01:33:36] <les> reading back
[01:33:37] <tziOm> 6 I guess.
[01:33:37] <cradek> tziOm: not true
[01:33:49] <tziOm> cradek - no?
[01:33:53] <cradek> tziOm: some uni motors have the coil centers tied together (5 wire motors)
[01:33:59] <Jacky^> 6 wires can work as bipolar
[01:34:00] <tziOm> ok then
[01:34:44] <tziOm> but what do You think of the boards I posted? seems like an ok deal?
[01:34:58] <Jacky^> never tried ..
[01:35:24] <Jacky^> it seem a toy to me :/
[01:35:42] <Jymmm> Jacky^ EVERYTHING seems like a toy to you =)
[01:35:54] <les> how big is yor machine tzi?
[01:35:59] <Jacky^> in this case .. im 80% sure :/
[01:36:31] <Jacky^> but considerig unipolar ..
[01:36:51] <cradek> hobbycnc are unipolar 42V max, xylotex is bipolar 35V max, gecko are the cadillac at bipolar 70V
[01:37:30] <tziOm> les - 120x60 approx working area
[01:37:35] <tziOm> cm.
[01:37:38] <les> ok
[01:38:11] <tziOm> xylotek is unipolar
[01:38:14] <les> perhaps NEMA 17 territory
[01:38:22] <Jymmm> xylotex is bipolar
[01:38:32] <tziOm> irs 23
[01:38:42] <Jacky^> sound good ..
[01:38:43] <les> 23 is fine too.
[01:38:50] <tziOm> Jymm - http://www.xylotex.com/Unipolar.htm
[01:38:55] <tziOm> ..and unipolar
[01:39:43] <tziOm> its not produced yet, the machine. Have some small stuff to be drawn and some parts to be had before delivering the drawings.
[01:39:59] <tziOm> One thing is the home/limit switches.
[01:40:15] <tziOm> ..as I want circular-threaded switches to fix in a hole.
[01:40:32] <les> hmm
[01:40:42] <tziOm> ..wondering about maby trying some cheap ones.. 2$ ones..
[01:41:20] <les> like momentary toggle switches for panels?
[01:41:26] <tziOm> yeps.
[01:41:30] <les> ok
[01:41:37] <les> might be ok.
[01:41:52] <les> they usually have some hysteresis
[01:42:33] <tziOm> les - ie this one: http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/dyndok.pl?lang=no&dok=7275.htm?_35_091_14
[01:42:39] <les> looking
[01:43:58] <les> might be ok
[01:44:02] <les> give it a try
[01:44:37] <tziOm> I'm addicted to symetry ... and those square buttons are hard to place.. ;)
[01:44:44] <les> heh
[01:45:29] <tziOm> les - got any other idea?
[01:45:52] <les> running normally closed is usually the best bet
[01:45:56] <les> failsafe
[01:45:56] <Jymmm> les : Tell him the cost of the router you built =)
[01:46:19] <Jymmm> excluding upgrades
[01:46:28] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ know something .. :(��
[01:47:14] <les> aw...tzi I am not a hobbyist...so sometimes I have bad perspectives of the type of stuff you need
[01:47:46] <tziOm> les - maby you could answer a design issue then..
[01:48:02] <les> I design machines yes
[01:48:12] <Jacky^> :)
[01:48:31] <les> go ahead
[01:49:07] <tziOm> les - I am using 20mm aluminum, and I have some angular contact bearings (10mm id, 28mm od, 8mm height) that I could like to place into this material.. is the 4mm I get over enough sypport do you thing? this is for the leadscrew?
[01:49:31] <tziOm> one on each side.. 4mm in the middle, then locknut
[01:50:23] <les> I would suggest this for screw end fixity:
[01:50:48] <Jymmm> * Jymmm thinks les makes up words sometimes! =)
[01:51:14] <les> use db angulars (back to back) on one end and a floating deep groove (conrad type) on the other
[01:51:18] <Jacky^> g night guys
[01:51:23] <les> fixity is a word!! haha
[01:51:29] <les> night jacky
[01:51:34] <Jymmm> nite Jacky^
[01:51:40] <Jacky^> bye
[01:51:45] <Jymmm> les fine, say it fast three times then!
[01:51:59] <les> fixity fixity fixity.
[01:52:35] <tziOm> les - so I dont need to fix on other side? I was thinking the leadscrew maby was bending a bit..
[01:53:18] <les> tzi at the speeds you are running you really don't need the cost and complexity of fixed fixed screw ends
[01:54:00] <les> I do use that however.
[01:54:03] <tziOm> its not complex..
[01:54:12] <les> it is very expensive.
[01:54:16] <tziOm> no..
[01:54:23] <tziOm> just a thread on other side too..
[01:54:26] <tziOm> and a locknut..
[01:54:55] <les> there are other issues tzi
[01:55:01] <tziOm> les - which?
[01:55:20] <les> screws get warm. they expand. a lot.
[01:55:35] <tziOm> dont be running those speeds for sure
[01:55:39] <tziOm> wont
[01:56:21] <les> well...then screw whipping won't be a problem. think of cost
[01:56:52] <les> a db angular contact pair cost 20 times as muchas a simple deep groove bearing
[01:57:41] <les> why pay more when you don't need it?
[01:58:37] <les> I will be happy to work out the critical speeds for you when the time comes.
[01:59:46] <les> hi ray
[02:00:13] <rayh> Hi les
[02:00:25] <rayh> Heard that you got your spindle.
[02:00:35] <les> yeah
[02:01:20] <les> no time to set it up right now...but it sure looks nice on the bench
[02:01:49] <les> I chickened and got the er25....$2200
[02:02:11] <rayh> What are the major differences?
[02:03:03] <les> well it's manual. I analyzed my production and found I was not using the work envelope efficiently. I can still go to ATC as needed though
[02:03:37] <rayh> I see.
[02:03:39] <les> actually I might be able to devise an er25 atc...
[02:04:00] <rayh> What sort of tool holder does it use?
[02:04:29] <les> er is a spring collet system that can hold about 1" tools
[02:05:01] <rayh> What do you do to change, press on the spring loaded draw bar?
[02:05:33] <les> no just tighten a nut with a special spanner
[02:05:41] <les> could be automated
[02:06:41] <les> so it was $2200....ISO 30 was $6600 total
[02:06:47] <rayh> Oh. Okay. Had something like that on a moog. Used a little bodine gear motor
[02:06:57] <les> yeah
[02:07:47] <les> anyway, what a nice spindle.
[02:07:59] <les> does high speed aluminum too
[02:08:26] <rayh> Fantastic. I'm anxious to hear the reports when you get it running.
[02:08:43] <les> I now have to fish a bunch of cables though
[02:09:41] <les> #8/3 shielded for the 240 delta or 380 wye to the spindle and 240/60hz for the cooling fan
[02:10:25] <K`zan> I think I am just going to order something for a driver, build later when I have a better idea of all this.
[02:10:54] <les> and I better go to 24v diff for all signal lines ..that thing is going to make some nasty rfi
[02:11:19] <les> also building a driver kzan?
[02:11:35] <rayh> Yep. I tend to use 24 volt cause that is the industrial voltage.
[02:12:11] <les> right. I did a dumb thing and had limit switches at TTL. I wasn't thinking.
[02:12:42] <les> because it was there I guess.
[02:14:34] <rayh> That is the most common way to hook them up to a pc. IMO it is suspect in the commercial environment.
[02:15:06] <les> I think I just pulled it off the stg.
[02:15:30] <les> the encoders need +5...but they are differential so are ok
[02:16:14] <les> home and limit need to be 24.
[02:16:58] <rayh> I'm using 24 with PICO PWM. NPN NO prox and diode.
[02:17:10] <rayh> SteveS tells me I don't really need the diode.
[02:18:16] <les> I forgot what the stg likes. I can always divide it down.
[02:18:34] <rayh> True.
[02:18:53] <rayh> I like the little prox switches from automationdirect.
[02:18:55] <les> yeah I think it wanted 5...that's why I did it.
[02:19:04] <les> no problem.
[02:19:24] <les> all the stg io was ttl yeah
[02:19:46] <rayh> They need 24 for power.
[02:20:34] <les> well 24 will work better with switch contacts and be more above the noise floor
[02:20:52] <les> I could even go differerntial on the switches
[02:21:09] <rayh> True and if you use some load resistor you can burnish the points.
[02:21:10] <les> $1 chip...
[02:22:01] <les> I have had false triggering on z home a couple times
[02:22:03] <K`zan> les: Thinking about applying it to a PCB router of my own contstruction as a first project. It seems that the HobbyCNC board is about the best deal overall.
[02:22:13] <les> that is the longest length of cable
[02:22:18] <les> x to y to z
[02:23:14] <les> Kzan, I have routed some boards. Chemicals are quicker....but if it's fun...do it.
[02:23:32] <rayh> Yes. I had a terrible time with my first limits on 5 volt.
[02:23:41] <les> right
[02:23:57] <rayh> Used normally closed and after a while they would open on the slightest jiggle
[02:24:11] <les> right...nc here too
[02:25:09] <les> I have had to click the switches a few times after a long inactivity to wipe off the contacts
[02:25:20] <rayh> I wound up using an aux 5 volt supply and load resistors.
[02:25:24] <les> 24 will punch through better
[02:25:33] <K`zan> les: At this point it is educational / fun and if something good comes out of it so much the better :).
[02:25:45] <K`zan> One has to start somewhere...
[02:25:49] <les> I understand
[02:26:22] <les> I did routed 10mil line/space on a commercial product prototype
[02:26:23] <K`zan> What I will eventually end up with, I do not know at this point, but it would seem I can do a lot with the HobbyCNC stuff under any conditions
[02:26:31] <K`zan> Decent!!!
[02:27:08] <les> However I have a seat of protel. $12k. Ouch!
[02:27:23] <K`zan> Building isn't all that much less expensive than buying at least I have it figured out at this point.
[02:28:00] <les> oh haha building costs more...I know! but if it's fun...
[02:28:06] <rayh> You tend to trade cash for your labor. Sweat equity.
[02:28:12] <K`zan> Yep
[02:28:27] <les> yeah and you can't tax deduct sweat equity.
[02:28:33] <K`zan> LOL
[02:28:37] <K`zan> True enough
[02:28:42] <les> But you learn so much...
[02:28:46] <les> I say do it.
[02:28:55] <K`zan> But you can deduct the parts and r&d time
[02:29:21] <rayh> Gotta run guys. Been fun.
[02:29:38] <les> well my machine was something around $25,000 for parts.
[02:29:57] <K`zan> May well build for the second thing I do - have this in mind: http://www.pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm
[02:29:59] <les> However I spent a year full time on it.
[02:30:15] <les> I am a graduate engineer...
[02:30:28] <les> so the opportunity cost was up there.
[02:30:37] <K`zan> Like the idea of separate driver per axis, seems more efficient in case of problems.
[02:30:50] <les> well I use that yes
[02:31:17] <K`zan> Pop out bad axis driver, pop in another...
[02:31:36] <les> 5.6 kW of servo amps for me.
[02:31:43] <K`zan> Wow
[02:31:47] <K`zan> Handfull
[02:31:49] <les> I keep spares but have not popped one.
[02:32:33] <K`zan> :-) Who knows what excitement this adventure will net. Under any conditions it will prolly be more fun than just programming the old moog.
[02:32:42] <les> keep spare motors and ballscrews too.
[02:33:13] <les> Well it's fun to make machines.
[02:33:29] <les> I have designed many, but mostly for other people.
[02:33:37] <K`zan> Going to eventually have to get some steppers with a bit more get up and go than these I got to play with.
[02:34:14] <K`zan> Old floppy steppers from The Electronics Goldmine
[02:34:34] <les> Well, yes. Being a commercial operation I use servos. But I use steppers for other things.
[02:34:57] <les> I am building up a simple painting robot withsome steppers.
[02:35:13] <K`zan> If things work out to pay for a decent commercial setup, I promise not to complain, but for now this stuff is for me and my projects.
[02:35:16] <les> inherently explosion proof...that's why
[02:35:45] <K`zan> * K`zan likes explosion proof except when she wants something more exciting :).
[02:37:02] <les> Well, I have woodworking production. I am out in the sticks. I cannot find a spray painter yto hire. So I will throw technology at the problem.
[02:38:21] <les> I am in exponetial growth mode after a tough start.
[02:38:29] <les> exponential
[02:38:37] <les> it is very stressful
[02:39:17] <les> but "good problems to have" you know?
[02:40:28] <les> So I am throwing HP and KW at everything. Electricity is cheap. Labor is not.
[02:47:00] <les> Fundamental law of nature: exponential growth ALWAYS stops....soon!
[03:11:04] <K`zan> True enough, make the best of it while it exists.
[03:11:12] <K`zan> Sorry, was off making dinner :)
[03:11:36] <les> I had steak cookout much earlier.
[03:11:56] <K`zan> Chicken, collard greens and baked potato :-)
[03:12:36] <K`zan> Grilled chicken, forgot to get the misquite read to smok early enough :(.
[03:12:54] <les> porterhouse, pasta, and tomatoes/okra/corn
[03:13:11] <K`zan> Yum, only if okra wasn't slimy :).
[03:13:30] <les> All my steaks are cooked on cherry wood...we have thousands of ponds of scraps from production
[03:13:53] <les> pounds
[03:14:08] <K`zan> Cool, Jean did a cherry ale here last month and it is pretty good, would probably go good with that :)!
[03:14:44] <K`zan> Prolly keg my stout next week and then start on the Coopers Dark :-).
[03:15:04] <les> cherry does have some cyanide complexes in it like all fruitwoods
[03:15:08] <les> oh brewing
[03:15:12] <les> haha I do that
[03:15:31] <les> just lagers
[03:15:47] <K`zan> Yep, 99% of what passes for beer in the US would be much improved by running it back through the horse another 10 times or so.
[03:15:57] <les> haha
[03:16:32] <les> I have trouble with diacetyl due to bacterial infection of theyeast.
[03:16:34] <K`zan> It is getting to lagering temps here now and after the Dark ale I will probably do a batch or two of OctoberFest again, good stuff.
[03:16:49] <K`zan> You keeping it covered ?
[03:17:37] <les> yes carefully. But this is a temperate rain forest. Molds and bacteria everywhere. Infection in the transfers I think.
[03:17:49] <K`zan> So far, I've been really lucky and all have gone well. Prolly helps I am OC about sanitation.
[03:18:03] <K`zan> Where are you? If I may ask.
[03:18:13] <les> I need to switch to no rinse stuff rather thanhypoclorites I think
[03:18:27] <K`zan> That does make life a bit easier.
[03:18:46] <les> I am in the southern appalachin mountains in north georgia usa
[03:18:51] <K`zan> Doing this in Atlanta was a damn nightmare for the same reason - rain forrest
[03:19:05] <les> muc worse here
[03:19:07] <K`zan> Coolness - some very lovely country there.
[03:19:09] <les> much
[03:19:24] <les> front yard:
[03:19:33] <les> www.lmwatts.com
[03:19:44] <K`zan> Used to spend about every weekend exploring N.Ga years ago.
[03:20:10] <les> I moved here from Chicago. I inherited a farm.
[03:20:46] <les> I resigned a corporate job to start a business, but still work a lot for that corporation it turns out.
[03:21:02] <K`zan> Lucky you, I spent about 10 years in McHenry, slumburg and area.
[03:21:31] <K`zan> Hated the winters there.
[03:21:51] <les> I was an r&d manager there. I still do that I guess.
[03:21:51] <K`zan> Pretty country, you even got a paved road ;-)
[03:22:10] <les> yeah we recently discovered paving/.
[03:23:15] <les> it's pretty cold here some times
[03:23:30] <les> not like chicago...but below zero some.
[03:25:03] <K`zan> Yep and muggy as hell in the summer :-9.
[03:25:15] <K`zan> Nice shop!
[03:25:32] <K`zan> I love woodworking and doing it in an apartment is a challeng.\
[03:25:52] <K`zan> Got some pretty crude tools but you can do the job with them if you are careful.
[03:26:00] <les> It's small, but has what I need. I am making another...have 3 employees now. We need room.
[03:26:45] <K`zan> desktop table saw (bolt skilsaw to bottom) can be a jigsaw or router table also. Sucks, but better than nothing and it was $5 at the thrift store :).
[03:27:08] <K`zan> Building on page the shop ?
[03:27:20] <les> you cando fine work on stuff like that...it's just slower
[03:27:59] <K`zan> Couple belt sanders, cheap as HELL chinese drill press and some cordless tools. I can get by with them, it just isn't as easy as real tools and a decent shop.
[03:29:22] <les> Whole second building. I have a good bit of land. Right now, bigger tablesaw. bigger jointer. bigger cnc router spindle. second vertical mill. forklift. Solar kiln.
[03:29:55] <les> Obviously I am putting a lot of the profits back in the business. We are doing well.
[03:30:15] <K`zan> Built a copy stand yesterday, it was fun and VERY useful already: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/Magnade/Copy-Stand/
[03:30:23] <les> looking
[03:30:58] <K`zan> Best to re-invest, more fun and more return on more and better tooling than "the good life", at least IMO.
[03:31:07] <K`zan> Those are the plans I found off the net.
[03:31:22] <K`zan> Drawing is not real good.
[03:31:33] <les> nice.
[03:31:59] <les> I never get to build stuff for me
[03:32:04] <K`zan> Sure worked out that way for taking pix of Jeans jewelry with a cheap digicam.
[03:32:17] <les> and I need some bigger bookshelves for my office...bad
[03:32:22] <K`zan> You have a business and that requires you get what you NEED when you need it.
[03:32:44] <les> heh
[03:32:55] <les> I need more employees.
[03:32:57] <K`zan> I am seeing more and more that a planer would be handy with the crap lumber that seems to exist these days.
[03:32:59] <K`zan> :).
[03:33:04] <les> but this is a very remote area.
[03:33:23] <les> yes get a planer by all means
[03:33:28] <K`zan> If I could handle the muggy atmosphere, I'd volunteer.
[03:33:35] <les> heh
[03:34:07] <K`zan> Looking at the "1x2" the thing is more of a sorta-kinda trapezoid.
[03:34:29] <les> I have had some luck hiring retired people....but there is little industry here andthe young folks have to move away
[03:34:29] <K`zan> Love those N.Ga mountains :-).
[03:34:48] <les> it is nice. Very nice.
[03:35:22] <les> Too quiet for a city boy though haha
[03:35:35] <K`zan> Had a really nice campsite just north and slightly west of Helen that I used to spend time at. Made the mistake of telling someone about it and last time I went it was a dump and a sewer....
[03:35:48] <les> ha
[03:35:57] <K`zan> I like quiet and laid back :-). Had my "thrills".
[03:36:26] <K`zan> BUT, I did have to perfect the recipe for Italian Beef since you can't get decent anyplace if at all/
[03:37:01] <les> I'm type a. had thrills...need more. getting them too. like being overloaded with work.
[03:37:05] <K`zan> Ordering overnight from Beef Villa (Dundee) just didn't work out well either.
[03:37:38] <K`zan> I prefer being thrilled being overloaded with work :-). More fun and more rewarding than the club scene.
[03:38:06] <les> I just cook meat on reject turkey calls...it's on the bottom of the gallery page
[03:39:03] <K`zan> LOL. Some really nice stuff in there.
[03:39:52] <K`zan> Unfortunately my woodworking projects are usually of the "I NEED MORE HORIZONTAL SURFACE ***NOW***" type which doesn't lead to showroom quality furniture :-/.
[03:40:10] <les> heh
[03:40:43] <les> well emc previously carved those calls in 3 minutes 20 seconds
[03:40:51] <les> now about one minute
[03:41:13] <les> 5 minutes of sanding and inlay
[03:41:23] <les> and the robot finishes them
[03:41:29] <les> $18 a pop.
[03:41:35] <les> so...
[03:41:43] <les> emc can make money!
[03:41:58] <les> MSRP is $120
[03:43:44] <K`zan> :-) But first I got to get something going with it :).
[03:43:57] <les> heh
[03:44:28] <les> well at least you know emc is capable of commercial work
[03:44:35] <K`zan> My little avr driver works, the new stepper (old floppy type) draws about 1/3 the current of the one I stripped out of that scanner...
[03:44:36] <les> I didn't always
[03:44:43] <les> had some big problems
[03:44:52] <K`zan> If you got a good tool to run with it, I can't see why not.
[03:45:13] <les> the trajectory planner was flawed
[03:45:16] <K`zan> It was interesting that the good live CD won't run EMC, but the crap copy did.
[03:45:24] <les> it's pretty mich fixed now.
[03:45:44] <K`zan> Takes time to get things right when you can't just throw money at it.
[03:46:07] <les> Being a commercial operation I change versions only when I have to
[03:46:26] <K`zan> If I had $10K for a pcb router (for example) I'd bet I'd be doing something with it now rather than trying to decide whether to build or buy drivers :).
[03:46:27] <les> Paul spends the spring here and we work on it.
[03:46:39] <les> The NIST folks come down too.
[03:46:53] <les> some
[03:46:53] <K`zan> NIST - fire simulation stuff ?
[03:47:04] <K`zan> Although they prolly do more than that.
[03:47:28] <les> National Institute of Standards and Technology
[03:47:34] <les> they wrote emc.
[03:47:56] <K`zan> Aha, will have to follow some link besides the fire stuff sometime :)
[03:48:02] <les> U.S. government agency
[03:48:16] <K`zan> Nice to see us getting something for all the $$$
[03:48:26] <les> yes
[03:48:36] <les> it cost millions
[03:50:14] <les> It still need some improvement...
[03:50:39] <les> it needs a biquad iir digital filter in the pid section
[03:50:51] <cradek> and a dozen bugfixes
[03:50:58] <les> it needs dramatically highr servo update rate
[03:51:10] <les> haha yeah chris
[03:51:23] <les> well emc1 is pretty stable
[03:51:33] <les> emc2 will be too
[03:51:38] <les> I hope
[03:52:04] <cradek> I'm not convinced "skip to line x", abort, pause, etc all work right
[03:52:10] <K`zan> I am sure there is something in there someplace that tells EMC what kind of movement you get for a step / pulse command.
[03:52:11] <cradek> seems like it does the wrong thing sometimes.
[03:52:19] <les> oh it's buggy for sure
[03:52:24] <les> I know that
[03:52:30] <cradek> buggy != stable
[03:52:40] <les> works weird the first time then ok the second
[03:52:41] <cradek> or do you mean the bugs are stable, i.e. lasting for years without changing?
[03:52:49] <K`zan> cradek: you will never make management with statements like that ;-)
[03:53:02] <les> yeah...the bugs are stable. ;)
[03:53:07] <cradek> K`zan: no worries about that
[03:53:16] <K`zan> *Features* <rech>
[03:53:24] <cradek> I'm kicking around running for the board of directors this time, but I'm not sure I want to deal with all the things I'd have to deal with.
[03:53:35] <cradek> I'm not really sure what they do.
[03:53:36] <K`zan> I think it is gonna be the HobbyCNC driver, prolly the 4 axis.
[03:53:54] <les> well, I'm too busy...I'll second you chris
[03:53:56] <K`zan> Unless you like bullshit, stay out of managment
[03:54:24] <les> yeah
[03:54:34] <les> I know about that.
[03:54:35] <K`zan> There are pathetically few who can do it well and survive, known 3 in my whole working life.
[03:54:45] <cradek> I'd like to see one of us irc-ers on the board
[03:54:58] <cradek> none of the board members ever come here, help new users, listen to the bitching, or anything else
[03:55:03] <K`zan> * K`zan is far to ignorant to apply.
[03:55:03] <les> management is ok if you own the company though.
[03:55:05] <cradek> (except paul sometimes, but he's leaving)
[03:55:27] <les> ok Chris...i'm convinced. I'll nominate if you want
[03:55:33] <les> wanna do it?
[03:56:13] <cradek> yes, what the heck
[03:56:30] <les> ok. so let it be written, so let it be done.
[03:56:36] <K`zan> LOL
[03:57:15] <JimHurlburt> Anyone know how to contact Ray Henry?
[03:57:47] <les> Hi jim. Gosh what is ray's email?
[03:57:51] <les> let me check
[03:58:28] <JimHurlburt> Or, how to get emc compiled and working on a Gentoo linux desktop.
[03:58:52] <K`zan> WOuld love to see that considering all we use here is Gentoo :)
[03:58:58] <JimHurlburt> Don't need the realtime stuff -- I want to use it to debug and check gcode before I take it to the shop
[03:59:25] <K`zan> The box I am building up for development is going to be dual boot - Gentoo and EMC...
[03:59:40] <cradek> JimHurlburt: then build emc1 from cvs, preferably the cradek_stable branch
[03:59:41] <les> ulp...ray is not in my contasct list...might be on linuxcnc.org
[03:59:55] <JimHurlburt> Or, how to get bdi-4.3 to install on an athlon box, epox board nforce2/3 chipset
[04:00:10] <JimHurlburt> Ray's email on the linux cnc site bounced.
[04:00:14] <cradek> From: Ray Henry <[email protected]>
[04:00:16] <les> oh
[04:00:19] <les> pooh
[04:00:20] <cradek> this is on all his emails to the list
[04:00:43] <JimHurlburt> That's the one I tried. I'll check and try it again.
[04:01:53] <JimHurlburt> Thanks -- I seem to have been missing the first 'e'.
[04:02:21] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?SimulatedMachine
[04:02:33] <cradek> I think these are the instructions you want
[04:03:43] <JimHurlburt> May be a bit aged. Link is for 2.2. I'm running 2.6.11 and need to up that to .13 one of these days.
[04:03:55] <JimHurlburt> Unless .14 gets out before I get around to it.
[04:04:29] <JimHurlburt> I'll give it a try tho. Wonder if it can be done with emc2
[04:04:54] <cradek> JimHurlburt: no, it won't build without realtime
[04:05:18] <cradek> JimHurlburt: The kernel version doesn't really matter. Try linux_2_4_20 maybe, that's what I use
[04:05:37] <cradek> JimHurlburt: you're building only the user space stuff, so the kernel is irrelevant.
[04:05:53] <cradek> JimHurlburt: you just have to fool the build system into building the user part.
[04:06:12] <JimHurlburt> Oh well. I wonder how intrusive the realtime module for 2.6 would be.
[04:06:39] <cradek> I don't understand your question
[04:06:48] <cradek> and I can't figure out how to edit the "new" wiki
[04:07:16] <JimHurlburt> If I build a realtime kernel for the gentoo desktop, how much downside might there be?
[04:08:11] <JimHurlburt> It would be really nice if I didn't have to do a reboot to use it. If I have to reboot, just as well do dual boot
[04:08:16] <cradek> aha, figured it out
[04:08:31] <cradek> JimHurlburt: no downside that I can think of.
[04:08:45] <cradek> JimHurlburt: there would be no point in rebooting. I run my desktop with a realtime kernel all the time.
[04:08:58] <cradek> JimHurlburt: lets me work on emc when I feel like it.
[04:09:22] <cradek> JimHurlburt: but if you're not running a machine, there is *NO* reason to go to the (significant) trouble of setting it up.
[04:09:37] <JimHurlburt> I'll give it a try then. With linux, if it annoys me too much I can just build a differrent kernel and go on.
[04:10:29] <JimHurlburt> The reason for making emc run is to test gcode and check the back plot at my desk.
[04:11:03] <JimHurlburt> I have a better setup for programming and cad here -- I can do it at the machine, but is more cumbersom
[04:11:32] <JimHurlburt> So, here, realtime isn't needful if emc can be fooled.
[04:12:09] <cradek> right.
[04:12:18] <cradek> I updated the instructions on that page a bit.
[04:12:46] <cradek> Seriously, don't worry about the kernel version. I think it will build just fine no matter what you specify (but be consistent and use the same thing in all the places)
[04:13:12] <JimHurlburt> Thanks. I'm going to do supper now and will read it in a bit.
[04:13:22] <JimHurlburt> And probably give it a try.
[04:13:22] <cradek> I do not have any 2.6 machines to test it on, but let us know here if it works.
[04:13:28] <cradek> ok, goodbye
[04:14:43] <Jymmm> * Jymmm nudges chris
[04:15:19] <cradek> hello
[04:15:39] <Jymmm> what be hanppening?
[04:15:41] <les> they still haven't changed the paper on pumapaint jymmm
[04:15:55] <les> must be a work of art.
[04:16:06] <Jymmm> les think they are trying to coverup my masterpiece!
[04:17:42] <les> well I am going to the music room. really. good night chris kzan and jymmm!
[04:17:48] <Jymmm> les : 2hp, 20K rpm, 100IPM,
[04:17:50] <cradek> g'night
[04:18:12] <cradek> les: thanks for the nomination, maybe I'll even get some votes.
[04:18:34] <les> you have a nomination or second...and a vote.
[04:18:43] <les> bye
[04:18:50] <Jymmm> nomination?
[04:19:19] <cradek> looks like I'm going to run for the board of directors
[04:20:44] <K`zan> EMC has a board of directors?
[04:20:50] <cradek> yes
[04:20:59] <K`zan> Was not aware of that.
[04:21:54] <K`zan> Ok, new DVD/CW-RW works on the dev box!
[04:22:23] <K`zan> Now to hack gentoo to be RT or install 2.30 on another partition...
[04:22:40] <cradek> K`zan: what kernel version is it?
[04:22:51] <K`zan> on the dev, box, lemme check...
[04:23:00] <Jymmm> cradek A $20,000 'donation' would greatly increase your future board opportunities!
[04:23:24] <Jymmm> cradek submitted to [email protected]
[04:23:58] <cradek> hello
[04:24:13] <Anastasia> K'zan on the development box :-)
[04:24:22] <Anastasia> 2.6.10
[04:24:24] <cradek> aha
[04:24:36] <Anastasia> :-)
[04:24:36] <cradek> I think a bdi has used that kernel, rtai works with it
[04:24:57] <cradek> * cradek teaches Anastasia and K`zan about screen
[04:25:09] <Anastasia> So I just need to rebuild a kernel for real time and snarf EMC from {somewhere} compile and install.
[04:25:18] <Anastasia> Wonder if EMC is in portage
[04:25:19] <cradek> yeah, "just"
[04:25:22] <Anastasia> emerge -s emc\
[04:25:59] <cradek> seems doubtful
[04:26:11] <Anastasia> Nope :-(
[04:26:26] <Anastasia> Box has been sitting for a while, lemme sync it
[04:26:41] <cradek> I don't think we have any gentoo users yet
[04:27:01] <cradek> but installing rtai is the same amount of pain on any system I'm sure
[04:27:26] <Anastasia> Well, I hate to admit to being a bigot, but I am a gentoo bigot :).
[04:27:56] <cradek> I tried to like it, but I wasn't turned on by it when I tried it some time ago
[04:28:18] <Anastasia> Gonna go have to see what I can find on the subject, I thought it was just kernel configuration for RT but I am prolly wrong.
[04:28:43] <Anastasia> Gentoo requires you read and understand to install (hard) but once you get it going it is an admins dream to maintain.
[04:28:47] <cradek> you have to patch the kernel and rebuild, and also install other stuff (rtai)
[04:29:25] <Anastasia> rtai isn't in portage either.
[04:29:41] <cradek> if I'm any kind of unix bigot, it would be bsd
[04:29:44] <Anastasia> Sigh, either deal with it to get it going on Gentoo or use the BDI.
[04:29:59] <Jymmm> why bsd?
[04:30:02] <cradek> it's like programming languages - I know enough of them to be able to pick something appropriate for the task at hand
[04:30:07] <Anastasia> LOL, nice but getting further and further behind the times, so it seems.
[04:30:22] <Anastasia> Gentoo has all the benefits of bsd without being bsd :-).
[04:30:40] <Anastasia> Primarily portage :).
[04:31:39] <cradek> I shouldn't have said anything - I'm allergic to holy wars
[04:31:43] <Anastasia> Heh, there is a difference between a Thunderbird 1100 and the XP3200+ I am usually on :)
[04:32:00] <Anastasia> cradek, To each their own, I try to convert no one :-).
[04:32:27] <Anastasia> That is why there are diff flavors, almost enough to make everyone on the planet happy ;-) LOL
[04:32:43] <cradek> yeah, some people even like windows
[04:33:06] <Anastasia> Well, that said, there are things I don't understand ;-).
[04:33:25] <Anastasia> I am of the *opinion* that people who like windoz really don't use it...
[04:33:44] <Anastasia> Use it hard and it WILL break and badly.
[04:34:16] <cradek> it seems like it is easy to use for people at first (unlike our systems), but in the long run it causes lots of frustration that we don't have.
[04:34:21] <Anastasia> I find that my XP install works well much longer when I don't use it :).
[04:34:28] <cradek> it's a tradeoff.
[04:34:54] <cradek> I've used unix for ... 15? years now (holy cow) and it's the obvious straightforward way for me to do lots of things.
[04:35:01] <Anastasia> Yep, I have been using wincrap since DOS 1.1 and Win 2.0 and it has never gotten a lot better.
[04:35:26] <Anastasia> Been using *nix since the mid 70s and I don't bitch about it :).
[04:35:34] <Anastasia> Other than the SCO days...
[04:35:40] <Anastasia> LOL
[04:36:03] <Anastasia> Went with microport and the linux and never looked back.
[04:36:21] <Anastasia> * Anastasia shows ancientness :)
[04:37:26] <Anastasia> Yep, it is always nice to see winditz users hit the point where they realize that linux IS good and quit bitching :)>
[04:38:33] <Anastasia> Interesting: http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~jliua/videogal.htm
[04:39:35] <cradek> huh, easier to keep clean
[04:40:55] <Anastasia> Yep, love fish, hate the maintenance, esp salt water.
[04:42:30] <K`zan> Tracks Ahead on PBS
[04:42:34] <K`zan> ww
[05:57:56] <K`zan> HobbyCNC stuff states:
[05:58:06] <K`zan> 3.0 Amps Maximum per Phase, 500ma (.5A) minimum. Each axis adjustable throughout this range.
[05:58:18] <K`zan> The steppers I have ATM are pulling (as best I can tell) 200mA to 300Ma average (higher peak but I can't read that) measured off the analog meter on the (15V) power supply.
[05:58:28] <K`zan> Does this mean that these steppers are unusable ? What happens if they don't pull 500mA minimum ?!?
[05:58:38] <K`zan> Note: This is running from an AVR through a uln2803 NOT PWM (chopper) control as the HobbyCNC stuff...
[05:58:42] <K`zan> TIA
[06:26:12] <fenn> oooi
[06:27:08] <fenn> Jymmm for president!
[06:27:37] <K`zan> :-)
[06:27:52] <K`zan> Whatever happend to Alfred E. ?
[06:28:54] <fenn> um, hate to break it to you, but einstein died like 40 years ago
[06:29:18] <Anastasia> damn, that is what one gets for staying too busy (K'zan on the development machine).
[06:29:56] <fenn> whatcha coding?
[06:30:42] <Anastasia> At the moment getting ready to check out the new CD/DVD R/W and setting up LM sensors which means re-compiling the kernel
[06:32:42] <fenn> anyway if a german's gonna become president, it'll be schwarzenegger
[06:33:18] <fenn> but i was talking about the EMC board of directors president
[06:35:03] <fenn> wow radek is bucking for a political appointment
[06:35:14] <fenn> weird
[06:35:26] <Anastasia> politics - rech
[06:35:42] <Anastasia> Hey A-L-P-H-A
[06:35:45] <fenn> A-L-P-H-A for president!
[06:35:53] <A-L-P-H-A> I accept.
[06:36:35] <A-L-P-H-A> first order of business... annex my homeland. Canada. Change the capital to Toronto. And give away Texas to Mexico, in exchange they take all their illegal immigrants back.
[06:37:13] <fenn> but where would we run to in order to escape your presidential tyrrany?
[06:40:29] <K`zan> It was the last president and her husband that were the tryants :)
[06:41:04] <Anastasia> wb cradek :-)
[06:48:20] <Anastasia> Building kernels, wheeee :-).
[06:50:39] <K`zan> brb
[06:54:40] <Anastasia> brb reboot
[07:46:59] <fenn> has anything of interest happened in the emc-world in the last 2 months?
[07:47:11] <fenn> * fenn is wonder whether to look over the archives or not
[11:04:13] <K`zan> 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
[11:04:26] <K`zan> damn kvm :-)
[11:04:29] <K`zan> Night all
[11:04:50] <les> night
[11:41:20] <Jacky^> morning
[12:04:39] <les> morning jacky
[12:08:23] <Jacky^> hey les :)
[12:09:53] <Jacky^> what you doing today ?
[12:13:19] <Jacky^> i'm sending some email to gecko to request a quote for G340 with international air fast shipping, they need the postal code to calculate it ..
[12:13:39] <Jacky^> i forget it in latest email :\
[12:13:46] <les> hope you get a good price
[12:14:02] <Jacky^> yeah ..
[12:15:09] <les> today more office work...I did not finish the reports yesterday
[12:15:21] <les> I got bored and stopped writing
[12:15:28] <les> just was not in the mood
[12:15:36] <Jacky^> mmh ..
[12:15:51] <Jacky^> it take a lot of time :(
[12:15:59] <les> yes
[12:16:11] <Jacky^> you need a secretary :P
[12:16:21] <les> but several thousand dollars pay
[12:16:31] <Jacky^> :\
[12:16:44] <les> yes need secretary
[12:16:49] <Jacky^> hehe
[12:16:50] <les> to sit in my lap.
[12:16:59] <Jacky^> :D
[12:17:55] <les> oh I have to complete the investigation of the proper vfd for the colombo spindle
[12:18:05] <les> make a couple calls then order
[12:18:23] <les> I found a good one for $660
[12:18:48] <Jacky^> wow, it seem a very nice price
[12:19:02] <les> pds colombo wanted 900
[12:19:14] <Jacky^> good ..
[12:19:33] <Jacky^> great difference
[12:19:39] <les> yes
[12:19:51] <les> I will have to do a lot of wiring changes
[12:19:57] <les> it will yake a while
[12:20:02] <les> take
[12:20:51] <Jacky^> thats ok .. for $240 -
[12:21:09] <les> oh well...06:43...time for breakfast
[12:21:10] <Jacky^> is it convenient
[12:21:12] <les> bbiaw
[12:21:23] <Jacky^> les: later
[13:10:25] <Yuga> les... check this out, might interest u
[13:10:26] <Yuga> http://wanderkolonie.org/servo2.htm
[13:20:20] <tziOm> les... you there?
[13:21:48] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[13:26:44] <tziOm> Anyone into machine construction that have the time to answer a few technical questions?
[13:33:01] <les_away> I'm here. got disconnected.
[13:34:08] <les_away> yuga, I know of the servo sub and it's developer Tom Danley. I was a menber of the Chicago chapter of AES when there.
[13:43:21] <les_away> les_away is now known as les
[14:36:50] <Yuga> les... u still around?
[14:37:36] <Jacky^> all looking for les :P
[14:37:42] <Jacky^> hey Yuga :)
[14:37:49] <Yuga> hey there Jacky^...
[14:38:00] <Jacky^> have you start to build the machine ?
[14:38:05] <Yuga> naa.. just wanted to hear what he had to say about that sub
[14:38:16] <Yuga> Jacky^... put it on hold...
[14:38:25] <Yuga> am going to give it a while
[14:38:32] <Yuga> got far to many project's running
[14:38:40] <Jacky^> :(
[14:38:59] <Jacky^> what sub ?
[14:39:00] <Yuga> and it's almost summer, it's the busyest time of the year for me. so ya. wont have that much time
[14:39:16] <Yuga> http://wanderkolonie.org/servo2.htm
[14:39:19] <Yuga> that sub
[14:39:54] <Jacky^> doh
[14:39:57] <Jacky^> cool :)
[14:40:56] <Jacky^> really nice
[14:41:03] <Yuga> ya... it is cool
[14:41:14] <Yuga> i just dont know if i like what they use as drivers
[14:42:12] <Jacky^> infact ..
[14:43:00] <Yuga> but then again... what do i know :)
[14:43:13] <Yuga> they probibly tried what i have in mind anyway's :)
[14:43:47] <Jacky^> it looks expensive ..
[14:44:09] <Jacky^> what the advantages ? small size box ?
[14:44:14] <Yuga> yes... that is does.. emailed them and asked for a quote.. they havent replyed... probibly better that way :)
[14:44:30] <Yuga> i think the advantage is that they have a xmax of 1.5"
[14:45:55] <Jacky^> i think they are using microcontroller driver with PID loops inside
[14:46:22] <Yuga> not a clue what that means... so i am just going to nod my head
[14:46:29] <Jacky^> oh .. infact, 114 db seem to be a great pressure
[14:46:58] <Yuga> 114 arent that loud
[14:47:15] <Yuga> aparently 4 of those boxes give off 141dB at 10 meters
[14:47:22] <Jacky^> wow
[14:47:29] <Yuga> yes.. that is wow
[14:49:29] <Yuga> they compare 4 servodrives with 9 dual 18" speaker boxes
[14:49:38] <Yuga> and the servo drive is still 1db up :>
[14:49:56] <Jacky^> great
[14:50:17] <Yuga> http://www.servodrive.com/basstech7.html
[14:50:31] <Yuga> that's where the idea comes from
[14:51:51] <Jacky^> nice
[14:56:19] <rayh> got a question re 4.3.
[15:07:10] <les> Ray, can't help with 4.3, but I want to ask...
[15:07:25] <les> will seconds be required for board nomination?
[15:08:04] <rayh> Last year we did but Matt said nothing about it this year.
[15:08:20] <rayh> Only an accept or refuse on the part of the nominee.
[15:08:32] <rayh> Mornin, Les.
[15:09:21] <les> ok good.
[15:09:29] <les> sending nomination now.
[15:10:20] <etla> hi anyone here ?
[15:10:26] <cradek> yes, lots of us
[15:10:37] <etla> great! can I ask some questions ?
[15:10:43] <cradek> of course
[15:11:08] <etla> I seem to have got the INPUT_SCALE right
[15:11:15] <etla> my machine moves the correct amount
[15:11:22] <etla> but my feeds are all wrong...
[15:11:38] <cradek> howso?
[15:12:10] <etla> I'm using metric units, I'm thinking G1X100F1000 should be at 1000 mm/min
[15:12:17] <etla> but it's not...
[15:12:38] <cradek> about how fast does it go?
[15:12:51] <etla> wait... I'll try it
[15:13:03] <cradek> are your LINEAR_UNITS 1.0?
[15:13:19] <cradek> and UNITS in the AXIS sections
[15:14:04] <cradek> and is MAX_VELOCITY >= 1000
[15:14:41] <cradek> err, MAX_VELOCITY >= 1000/60 = 16.667
[15:15:10] <etla> I think they are all OK, I'll check.
[15:15:35] <etla> the g1x100f1000 took around 25 seconds when I think it should take 6
[15:16:53] <etla> LINEAR_UNITS = 1.0 UNITS = 1.0 MAX_VELOCITY = 170
[15:17:14] <etla> short g0 moves are OK but if I try a longer G0 move I get a following error
[15:17:33] <rayh> That error would be common on such a system.
[15:17:54] <cradek> what is your INPUT_SCALE?
[15:17:57] <rayh> first multiply FERROR and MIN_FERROR by 25.4
[15:18:17] <cradek> ah, good idea
[15:18:42] <etla> INPUT_SCALE = 80 or -80 for some axes (200step/rev motor at 2microsteps/fullstep, 5mm/turn screw)
[15:18:49] <etla> I'll try FERROR and MIN_FERROR
[15:19:08] <cradek> unfortunately emc has problems with such small SCALEs
[15:19:14] <cradek> nobody has seemed to figure out why
[15:19:38] <cradek> but an equivalent inch configuration often works fine since the scales are higher
[15:19:57] <rayh> Then increase MIN_OUTPUT and MAX_OUTPUT to 20-50.
[15:20:00] <etla> FERROR=26 MIN_FERROR=0.260
[15:20:13] <rayh> okay.
[15:20:35] <rayh> What is the PERIOD setting and the speed of your processor?
[15:20:44] <etla> I'm using the sherline (mm) file that came with BDI 4.30, MIN_OUTPUT=-20 MAX_OUTPUT=20
[15:21:18] <etla> PERIOD=0.00002 Celeron 2.4GHz with 512Mb memory, BDI 4.30
[15:21:25] <cradek> you'd think that would come set up right.
[15:22:00] <etla> it had an INPUT_SCALE=800 originaly...
[15:22:14] <rayh> is that mobo use an I810 chipset.
[15:22:33] <etla> hmmm tough question...
[15:23:07] <rayh> I've never been able to get much speed from that kind of mobo.
[15:23:08] <etla> are there problems with I810 ?
[15:24:11] <rayh> try MIN_OUTPUT = 40 and max the same.
[15:24:33] <etla> it's an Intel D862GLC, I'll have to google for the chipset.
[15:24:34] <rayh> command rapids with feedrate pulled down and gradually raise so that you can see where it trips out.
[15:24:54] <etla> at what feed are G0's done ?
[15:25:04] <etla> what's the default position for the feed override ? 100 ?
[15:25:26] <jepler> feed override is a percentage, so 100 is "as specified"
[15:25:41] <jepler> G0 is done at whatever speed the machine is capable of
[15:27:26] <etla> g1x100f5000 is about the limit, it will give following error with f7000. but... the feeds are nowhere close to correct :(
[15:29:28] <etla> at "f5000" a 100mm moves takes around 10seconds which is around 8.3 times too slow
[15:30:11] <etla> should I try increasing PERIOD ?
[15:30:48] <cradek> etla: just checking again - you have set MAX_VELOCITY in both TRAJ and AXIS_* sections?
[15:31:27] <etla> yes, they are both set to the same, 170, since with another controller software I can do 10000 mm/min
[15:32:23] <etla> btw. I'm looking at the ini file I have PLAT=nonrealtime in [TASK] but under [EMCMOT] I have PLAT=realtime is that correct ?
[15:32:29] <cradek> what is MAX_ACCELERATION?
[15:32:32] <cradek> yes, that's right
[15:32:55] <etla> MAX_ACCELERATION = 100
[15:34:11] <cradek> that is mm/sec2 so it will take almost two seconds to get to your full speed of 170 mm/sec
[15:35:02] <cradek> I bet it should be (much) higher
[15:36:02] <etla> OK, I'll try that
[15:37:15] <etla> now I restarted EMC and it seems much better.
[15:37:26] <cradek> yay
[15:38:14] <etla> what to do about the following errors ? smaller PERIOD ?
[15:38:34] <cradek> are they still there? Sometimes too low an acceleration will help cause them
[15:39:18] <rayh> PERIOD would be a place to start.
[15:40:18] <rayh> To small a number will cause the computer to freeze or reboot.
[15:40:21] <etla> can other programs running on the same computer take up cpu time and lead to following error ?
[15:40:29] <cradek> no
[15:40:46] <rayh> Not really. They only make the screen updating slower.
[15:40:56] <etla> does 'top' give me an idication of how much I can push down the PERIOD
[15:41:17] <rayh> Not really because the rt processes are not represented there.
[15:42:17] <rayh> Under K -> System there is CPU monitor.
[15:42:44] <rayh> It does not show rt either but will show the load and pu ability left after rt has started.
[15:43:15] <rayh> cpu ability
[15:45:07] <etla> user = 30 % system = 10 %
[15:50:14] <rayh> Then you should have some room to play with PERIOD.
[15:50:37] <rayh> You can let these sum to 100 for a few seconds when the EMC display starts.
[15:54:35] <etla> back after reboot... halving PERIOD was not a good idea. complete lock-up.
[15:56:49] <etla> still need to figure out why I get following errors...
[15:56:53] <rayh> I've seen a few guys run around 12 but 16 is better.
[15:57:17] <rayh> These errors are only in the frequency generator inside the PC.
[15:57:36] <rayh> they have nothing to do with the external driver box or the machine tool.
[15:57:56] <rayh> EMC is simply commanding more pulses that the frequency generator can produce.
[15:58:06] <etla> OK, so my best bet is to try another motherboard ?
[15:58:29] <rayh> That would be a good bet if you need 170 mm/sec
[15:58:38] <cradek> are you microstepping?
[15:58:39] <etla> or, are there cheap pci pulse generator cards that work with emc ?
[15:59:01] <etla> yes, 400steps/rev with a 5mm/rev ballscrew
[15:59:01] <rayh> Raising MAX and MIN OUTPUT will help the equasion some also.
[15:59:23] <rayh> Is this a sherline driver box?
[15:59:58] <cradek> etla: if you can reduce your microsteps by half you will be fine
[16:00:27] <etla> I'd like to get at least 5000mm/min or around 7 kHz pulse rate. that's possbile using turbocnc under DOS
[16:00:48] <etla> it's a homemade stepper box, I don't think it's possible to go to full stepping
[16:01:06] <cradek> oh, you're only half stepping, I see, you don't want to full step even if you can
[16:02:12] <rayh> Reduce period to 18 and see if your possible velocity increases
[16:02:44] <etla> you mean from 0.00002 to 0.000018 ?
[16:03:34] <rayh> Yep.
[16:03:41] <etla> hey ! now I increased MAX and MIN OUTPUT and I'm getting to higher speeds without following errors !
[16:04:24] <etla> does that mean I really get big following errors in the motion of the tool ?
[16:05:34] <rayh> Yes the tool will be lagging behind commanded position.
[16:05:59] <rayh> The distance behind will depend upon the commanded speed.
[16:06:38] <rayh> the following error trip point is along the line between MIN_FERROR and FERROR
[16:06:56] <rayh> and zero speed and rapid.
[16:07:59] <rayh> And yes TurboCNC will produce a faster pulsetrain that will the EMC on the same setup.
[16:08:14] <etla> ok, thanks for enlightening me
[16:08:16] <rayh> With it you are single tasking and running a single executable.
[16:08:33] <etla> I'm getting f3000 which I think will be enough for now
[16:08:43] <etla> the big reason why I want to try emc is lookahead
[16:09:08] <etla> with the 3D parts I want to surface finish the CAM program produces lots of G01 and G02 moves to approximate the real shape
[16:09:19] <les> is this a router?
[16:09:32] <etla> turbocnc slows down to zero velocity inbetween every move and it's a pain to listen to and watch
[16:09:41] <etla> emc should have lookahead and move in a smoother motion
[16:09:46] <cradek> etla: this will be MUCH MUCH better then, even if the max feed is a little slower
[16:10:04] <etla> yes, now I'm working with a 500x500x80 mm workspace ISEL router with steppers and ballscrews
[16:10:19] <les> ah ok
[16:10:24] <les> what spindle?
[16:12:00] <rayh> You might try PERIOD = 0.000017
[16:12:17] <rayh> but watch the cpu load when emc starts.
[16:12:40] <etla> together with a friend we also have a small manual mill which is converted to cnc, see http://www.anderswallin.net/2004/11/07/cnc-milling-of-mdf-plug/
[16:13:03] <etla> I'm using an AEG router as the spindle. 700W and 30 krpm unloaded if I remember correctly
[16:13:26] <les> ok. 3 meters/min will be about right for wood
[16:13:41] <etla> I'm doing plugs for composite moulds. for prototypes I use blue insulation foam and for more permanent parts MDF
[16:14:03] <les> might be able to run a little faster in MDF
[16:14:17] <etla> rayh: OK I'll try carefully decreasing PERIOD
[16:14:38] <rayh> Good term that "carefully"
[16:14:55] <etla> les: I have a 6mm 2-flute endmill right now, no toolchangers so need to do both rough and fine passes with same bit
[16:15:00] <rayh> etla: piva piva
[16:15:56] <les> etla: I also run a router with emc.
[16:17:10] <etla> using parallell port and steppers ?
[16:18:05] <les> servo
[16:19:28] <les> We have fixed some things that caused near stops at waypoints like turbocnc. Now motion is pretty smooth
[16:20:06] <cradek> etla: the result is very beautiful, but what is it?
[16:20:07] <les> cubic sub interpolated trapezoidal velocity
[16:20:27] <etla> g PERIOD
[16:20:28] <etla> <rayh> Good term that "carefully"
[16:20:38] <les> the cubic requires 4 points, so it's a type of look ahead
[16:20:58] <etla> it's a plug for a model boat
[16:21:07] <les> We do not have corner slowdown, but you cam can put that in
[16:21:14] <cradek> what part of a boat is the plug?
[16:21:38] <etla> you first make a mould over it using heavy fiberglass etc. then iside this mould you can laminate the boat out of thinner fiberglass or carbon
[16:22:18] <cradek> I see, neat
[16:22:19] <etla> i'll copy paste some links... wait.
[16:23:29] <etla> here is the carbon hull that was eventualy made from those plugs: http://el-servo.physics.helsinki.fi/personal/awallin/picture_page/2005/2005_04_apr/2005_04_apr.htm
[16:24:24] <etla> the boat is one meter long, don't you wish you had a mill like this http://el-servo.physics.helsinki.fi/personal/awallin/picture_page/2002/2002_04_apr/2002_04.htm
[16:24:50] <etla> ps. I don't have one, we got that made for us at a design company
[16:25:11] <cradek> very nice
[16:25:21] <les> yes
[16:29:43] <les> well thinking more about content of reports....I might think better if I simultaneously hit little while balls into lakes and woods.
[16:29:49] <les> can I go do that?
[16:30:05] <les> white not while
[16:30:14] <etla> OK guys, thanks very much for all your help ! I'll try emc out with some real G-code later tonite and the results will be on www.anderswallin.net in a few weeks. thanks again !
[16:30:30] <cradek> etla: be sure to join the users list if you haven't
[16:30:31] <etla> golf takes too much time, I gave it up years ago :)
[16:30:36] <les> haha
[16:30:38] <etla> where, hoe ?
[16:30:40] <etla> how ?
[16:30:47] <cradek> [email protected]
[16:30:56] <etla> OK, thanks, now I gotta go.
[16:36:35] <les> off to the think tank...err course. Chris...accept!
[16:41:29] <anonimasu> hello
[16:54:01] <ValarQ> hiya
[17:39:09] <Jymmm> Morning Ladies
[17:46:07] <Jymmm> Oh man... an edm machine is up for bid, but no room for it
[17:48:29] <anonimasu> yawns*
[17:51:11] <Jymmm> oh damn... it went for $99 USD =(
[17:54:51] <Jymmm> big sucker too
[18:04:45] <tziOm> what is the difference between rtai, rtlinux and rtlinuxpro, and what would you suggest for emc2?
[18:06:04] <cradek> do you have 2.6 kernel?
[18:06:13] <cradek> you probably want rtai if so
[18:06:26] <cradek> it's free and under current development
[18:06:40] <tziOm> i have 2.6 atm
[18:07:03] <tziOm> free is a must, yes
[18:07:07] <tziOm> gpl?
[18:07:39] <cradek> not sure but I think so.
[18:07:49] <cradek> (I use the free rtlinux on 2.4 kernel)
[18:08:00] <alex_joni> hi guys
[18:08:06] <cradek> hello
[18:08:20] <alex_joni> was surprised to see a few rtai-applications today
[18:08:37] <alex_joni> a robot controller done under 2.6 with fusion
[18:08:38] <alex_joni> :)
[18:09:01] <ValarQ> hello Joni :)
[18:09:12] <alex_joni> hello captain
[18:09:26] <alex_joni> greetings from sk�aaneland
[18:09:32] <alex_joni> if I spelt it correctly
[18:10:12] <tziOm> seems like rtai cvs has some issues..
[18:10:26] <ValarQ> alex_joni: Sk&aring;neland <!-- XMLified -->
[18:10:26] <tziOm> /usr/sbin/chroot: cannot change root directory to /chroot/cvs: Operation not permitted
[18:10:49] <ValarQ> alex_joni: Skåneland ( UTF-8ified )
[18:10:54] <ValarQ> alex_joni: what is fusion?
[18:11:03] <alex_joni> it's a flavour of rtai
[18:11:45] <ValarQ> ok
[18:12:17] <tziOm> is rtai-3.2 latest release?
[18:12:25] <alex_joni> actually Xenomai
[18:12:33] <alex_joni> rtai/fusion has been renamed to Xenomai
[18:12:40] <alex_joni> tziOm: latest stable afaik
[18:12:53] <tziOm> alex - yeah? split, or renamed?
[18:13:07] <alex_joni> rename
[18:13:15] <alex_joni> about a week old ;)
[18:13:26] <alex_joni> but paul_c is the one to ask about rtai ;)
[18:13:34] <alex_joni> * alex_joni knows only the tip of the iceberg
[18:15:22] <alex_joni> sorry .. this week (not last week)
[18:15:42] <alex_joni> "The former RTAI/fusion branch has been re-established as a separate and independent project called Xenomai [1]. The development keeps going on the Xenomai site [2], so that Xenomai 2.0 will be the actual incarnation of what should have been RTAI/fusion 1.0, under other circumstances. We are doing our best to reduce inconvenience as much as possible; please use our mailing lists for any inquiry regarding the transition process [3]."
[18:15:51] <alex_joni> Posted by admin on Monday, October 10 @ 14:54:38 CEST (7 reads)
[18:16:24] <tziOm> error: HAL patch not applied/enabled in /usr/src/linux
[18:16:29] <tziOm> huh.. noone told me to!
[18:16:40] <alex_joni> tziOm: what r u trying to do?
[18:16:50] <tziOm> alex - configuring rtai
[18:16:57] <alex_joni> did you patch the kernel?
[18:17:00] <alex_joni> recompile?
[18:17:15] <alex_joni> what kernel do you have?
[18:17:21] <tziOm> havent patched..
[18:17:24] <tziOm> 2.6.10
[18:17:40] <tziOm> is it only the hal patch I need to apply?
[18:17:55] <alex_joni> yes
[18:18:17] <alex_joni> what rtai did you download?
[18:18:25] <alex_joni> rtai-3.2 (vulcano) ?
[18:18:31] <alex_joni> or did you go with CVS magma?
[18:18:40] <tziOm> worked like a charm..
[18:18:51] <tziOm> i tried to go for cvs.. but (check above)
[18:19:26] <alex_joni> * alex_joni would suggest http://cvs.gna.org/cvsweb/vulcano/base/arch/i386/patches/?cvsroot=rtai
[18:19:53] <tziOm> too late.. or howto remove a pacth?
[18:19:59] <alex_joni> nm
[18:20:06] <alex_joni> if it works.. don't touch it ;)
[18:20:15] <alex_joni> if it doesn't .. get magma
[18:20:19] <alex_joni> and go that way
[18:20:25] <alex_joni> but that's a bit bleeding edge
[18:20:27] <tziOm> where in the kernel does the Adeos config reside?
[18:20:32] <tziOm> where in the config?
[18:20:35] <alex_joni> btw, don't you have a debian system ?
[18:20:39] <tziOm> Oh!
[18:20:48] <tziOm> nopes.. slackware
[18:20:52] <alex_joni> too bad ;)
[18:20:56] <Jymmm> alex_joni... our resident AOLer
[18:21:04] <alex_joni> kernel & rtai available on debian
[18:21:22] <alex_joni> greetings from SkAYneland Jymmm
[18:21:30] <alex_joni> not very ok on the paste ;)
[18:21:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni is that someplace on planet earth?
[18:21:43] <alex_joni> in sweden
[18:21:47] <Jymmm> ah
[18:21:49] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has been advertising emc today
[18:21:57] <tziOm> root@tjottleik:/usr/src/cvs# cvs -d:pserver:[email protected]:/cvs/rtai co rtai
[18:21:57] <tziOm> cvs [checkout aborted]: unrecognized auth response from cvs.gna.org: /usr/sbin/chroot: cannot change root directory to /chroot/cvs: Operation not permitted
[18:22:18] <alex_joni> did you login first?
[18:22:56] <tziOm> no.. dont need to .. but get the message anyway
[18:23:02] <alex_joni> right
[18:23:07] <alex_joni> well.. smthg is borked
[18:23:40] <tziOm> can anyone hook me up with cheap angular contact bearings btw?
[18:23:48] <alex_joni> try : -d:pserver:[email protected]:/var/cvs/rtai instead
[18:23:54] <alex_joni> notice the /var/
[18:24:13] <tziOm> cvs [checkout aborted]: unrecognized auth response from cvs.gna.org: /usr/sbin/chroot: cannot change root directory to /chroot/cvs: Operation not permitted
[18:24:31] <alex_joni> well.. scrap it then ;)
[18:24:39] <alex_joni> tziOm: btw, where are you from?
[18:24:46] <tziOm> alex - probably running rtai ;)
[18:24:49] <tziOm> alex - norway
[18:24:56] <alex_joni> don't think I got the chance to meet you
[18:25:02] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is in sweden right now
[18:25:12] <tziOm> are you from sweeden?
[18:25:13] <alex_joni> usually a lot further away
[18:25:18] <alex_joni> .ro
[18:25:23] <alex_joni> as in romania
[18:25:33] <tziOm> aha.. there you could perhaps get some cheap bearing for me?
[18:25:39] <alex_joni> lol.. not sure ;)
[18:26:01] <tziOm> could you checkitout?
[18:26:05] <alex_joni> anyways.. hope I'll be a lot more online the next period
[18:26:11] <alex_joni> tziOm: drop me an email
[18:26:21] <tziOm> need your @ then
[18:26:30] <alex_joni> already /msg'ed it
[18:27:00] <alex_joni> ok guys..
[18:27:03] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to dinner
[18:27:42] <alex_joni> later
[18:58:07] <tziOm> Starting emc...
[18:58:09] <tziOm> ERROR: can't find "fuser", used to verify that it is safe to shutdown realtime
[18:58:11] <tziOm> Realtime system did not load
[18:58:13] <tziOm> => anyone know whats the problem?
[19:12:38] <tziOm> fuck!
[19:17:00] <tziOm> anyone herE?
[19:44:32] <cradek> what system is this?
[20:12:18] <anonimasu> hm
[20:15:42] <Jacky^> fuser its a command
[20:16:08] <Jacky^> /bin/fuser
[20:16:18] <Jacky^> did you erase it ? O_O
[20:18:06] <anonimasu> what does fuser do?
[20:19:04] <Jacky^> check for users using filesystem ..
[20:19:07] <cradek> tells who is using a file or device
[20:19:13] <les> I am told I had another patent issue.
[20:19:14] <Jacky^> yeah
[20:19:19] <les> nothin in the mail
[20:19:25] <cradek> tziOm's actual problem is probably earlier
[20:19:25] <les> hmm
[20:19:27] <anonimasu> never never seen that command..
[20:19:35] <anonimasu> les: with what?
[20:19:44] <les> the encoder device
[20:19:55] <les> european patents too
[20:19:59] <Jacky^> tziOm: proplay is in psmisc - Utilities that use the proc filesystem pakcjage
[20:19:59] <anonimasu> les: is someone infringing on your patent or are you infringing
[20:20:15] <les> niether I hope
[20:20:25] <Jacky^> les: im looking at abba ways ..
[20:20:31] <les> I had just applied for patents
[20:20:36] <anonimasu> ah
[20:20:41] <Jacky^> what about flange ?
[20:20:44] <les> they are taking a while to issue these days
[20:20:49] <Jacky^> flange type
[20:21:00] <les> I was told it just did issue
[20:21:04] <Jacky^> A: with flange should be ok .. ?
[20:21:07] <anonimasu> hm, issue?
[20:21:11] <anonimasu> like give your patent to you?
[20:21:15] <anonimasu> or is it a "issue"
[20:21:16] <les> be approved.
[20:21:18] <anonimasu> :D
[20:21:20] <anonimasu> oh
[20:21:28] <anonimasu> I thought you ahd a issue with a patent ;)
[20:21:34] <anonimasu> not a patent being issued.
[20:21:38] <les> well, I'll just hunt up my name on uspto site i guess
[20:21:50] <les> and ecc
[20:22:03] <les> all that goes through The Hague
[20:22:05] <tziOm> hey guys
[20:22:13] <les> hi tzi
[20:22:15] <tziOm> its /ust/bin/fuser here.. np .. fixed that
[20:22:40] <Jacky^> wrong path ?
[20:22:46] <tziOm> and I guess /usr/bin is more correct..
[20:22:57] <tziOm> as it is not an absolute nessesarity for bootup
[20:24:09] <tziOm> My problem is now: insmod: error inserting '/usr/src/cvs/emc2/rtlib/motmod.ko': -1 Operation not permitted
[20:24:24] <anonimasu> are you running emc as root?
[20:24:34] <tziOm> yes
[20:25:02] <tziOm> with 2.6.10 and rtai-3.2
[20:25:10] <Jacky^> tziOm: you compiled emc2 un usr/src/ ??
[20:25:15] <Jacky^> bad ..
[20:25:27] <tziOm> why bad?
[20:25:28] <Jacky^> you should use /home
[20:25:32] <tziOm> jerk
[20:25:34] <Jacky^> not usr
[20:25:55] <tziOm> I know my linux
[20:26:05] <Jacky^> i know..
[20:26:09] <Jymmm> jerk?
[20:26:24] <Jacky^> something is out of standard linux procedures..
[20:26:29] <tziOm> saying its bad to use /usr/src for src-code
[20:26:34] <Jacky^> also need new kernel magma
[20:26:47] <Jacky^> at lest, its what i used ..
[20:26:50] <Jacky^> 2.6.12
[20:27:03] <tziOm> Jacky - you saying there is hardcoded paths to /home in emc?
[20:27:32] <Jacky^> i meant /home/youruser/emc2
[20:27:41] <Jacky^> its the right path to compile emc2
[20:27:45] <cradek> tziOm: no, there aren't
[20:27:48] <tziOm> its no right place
[20:27:52] <tziOm> no wrong.
[20:28:00] <tziOm> except /proc and /etc maby
[20:28:02] <tziOm> ;)
[20:28:18] <tziOm> I would place it /opt if this was a install
[20:28:22] <tziOm> just testingh
[20:29:13] <tziOm> ..but.. noone else got this error running emc2 with rtai?
[20:29:22] <anonimasu> hm I've had module trouble
[20:29:28] <anonimasu> but I cant remember it was a while back..
[20:29:40] <cradek> can you insmod any other module?
[20:29:46] <tziOm> cradek - sure
[20:29:47] <cradek> it's a very descriptive error
[20:29:57] <tziOm> it has inserted all the other modules it needs.
[20:30:06] <cradek> can you insmod motmod.ko manually?
[20:30:09] <tziOm> cradek - just this motmod
[20:30:14] <tziOm> cradek - nope
[20:30:24] <tziOm> same error .. strange one.. permission denied.
[20:30:55] <tziOm> "-1 Operation not permitted"
[20:31:59] <tziOm> wth is motmod trying to do?
[20:33:02] <tziOm> MOTION: failed to create 50000 nsec base thread
[20:33:03] <tziOm> MOTION: init_threads() failed
[20:33:32] <cradek> did you install this rtai yourself?
[20:33:36] <cradek> maybe it is not working at all
[20:33:44] <cradek> is there a test that comes with rtai?
[20:33:47] <tziOm> cradek - tests are working.
[20:34:05] <cradek> * cradek has never used rtai - only rtlinux
[20:41:09] <anonimasu> do any of you guys have a clue how hard it is to do cad drawing with a trackball?
[20:41:26] <cradek> don't do that then
[20:41:28] <cradek> get a tablet
[20:41:53] <anonimasu> I have one
[20:41:54] <cradek> it's hard to do anything with a trackball
[20:42:04] <anonimasu> I havent charged my other mouse ;)
[20:42:04] <cradek> the only thing worse is those "nipples"
[20:42:16] <anonimasu> they work better then pads..
[20:42:18] <anonimasu> :9
[20:42:31] <anonimasu> atleast if you arent very clean..
[20:43:36] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[20:47:05] <etla> hi all !?
[20:47:11] <Jacky^> ciao :)
[20:47:38] <etla> I experienced jittering/shaking steppers today...
[20:48:14] <etla> just like emc could not decide which step it wanted the steppers to stand still on so it hopped between steps.
[20:48:24] <cradek> that's normal
[20:48:30] <cradek> you need to set DEADBAND properly
[20:48:38] <etla> whenever commanded or jogged to something like 1.00 or 2.00 they would be still
[20:48:44] <cradek> set it to slightly more than half of the distance traversed with one step
[20:49:00] <etla> OK, thanks for that tip, will try tomorrow evening
[20:49:18] <etla> does the term come from analog servo controllers ?
[20:50:55] <etla> btw. is the following error viewable in realtime somehow ?
[20:51:09] <cradek> I think you can plot it
[20:51:19] <cradek> in tkemc under edit/logging or something like that
[20:52:06] <etla> ok, I'll have to do some tests at increasing feeds to see what the tolerances are at high feed...
[20:52:22] <etla> got any ideas for 'hard' test parts/G-code ?
[20:53:04] <cradek> I don't know what would tend to give you the most following error, no
[20:53:42] <anonimasu> hm, machine a circle..
[20:53:43] <anonimasu> :)
[20:53:55] <anonimasu> and increase the feed until it starts to crap...
[20:54:18] <etla> OK, with G02 or with lots and lots of G01 interpolations ?
[20:54:57] <anonimasu> g2 x0 y0 i5 j5 f300
[20:55:01] <anonimasu> works ;)
[20:55:05] <anonimasu> although tweak i and j for size..
[20:55:09] <Jymmm> f300000000
[20:55:17] <etla> yeh...
[20:55:24] <cradek> for circles you may have an accel constraint
[20:55:39] <cradek> for testing highest feed rates you probably don't want a circle
[20:55:49] <etla> I just set G0 moves to f3600 and that seems to be about max
[20:55:58] <anonimasu> cradek: larger ones?
[20:56:29] <etla> anyone know about how emc does the smoothing of moves ?
[20:56:34] <Jymmm> come on... should be easy to do a 85 foot circle @ 3000000 IPS
[20:56:46] <etla> namely where are the kinematics defined ? can they be changed ?
[20:57:16] <cradek> we all know where it is in the code, but we're all afraid of it.
[20:57:19] <Jymmm> "Use the source Luke!"
[20:57:38] <etla> ohhh B)
[20:57:57] <anonimasu> lol
[20:58:05] <Jymmm> cradek CHICKEN!
[20:58:11] <cradek> it works "pretty well" so DON'T TOUCH IT
[20:58:14] <etla> is the code, the algorithm or the maths/physics
[20:58:21] <cradek> the code
[20:58:49] <etla> you guys developing on EMC2 now ?
[20:59:15] <anonimasu> :)
[21:01:47] <tziOm> hmm..
[21:01:54] <tziOm> Oct 11 21:26:04 tjottleik kernel: RTAPI: Init
[21:01:54] <tziOm> Oct 11 21:26:04 tjottleik kernel: RTAPI: Init complete
[21:01:54] <tziOm> Oct 11 21:26:04 tjottleik kernel: Unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereferen
[21:01:55] <tziOm> ce at virtual address 0000002
[21:02:29] <cradek> ow
[21:03:58] <tziOm> so.. what kernels and rtlib are you running?
[21:04:49] <cradek> bdi 4.30 uses linux 2.6.12.6-magma
[21:05:08] <tziOm> wth is magma?
[21:05:15] <cradek> and rtai 3.3.magma-4+bd ??
[21:05:27] <cradek> one of the many strangely-named rtai branches I think
[21:05:28] <tziOm> hmm..
[21:05:31] <Jacky^> the new brach
[21:05:37] <tziOm> Jacky howto get it?
[21:05:39] <Jacky^> work fine
[21:05:57] <Jacky^> tziOm: are you using BDI ?
[21:06:00] <Jacky^> apt ..
[21:06:15] <Jacky^> let me check the sources.list
[21:06:24] <Jacky^> need to turn on the pc ..
[21:06:33] <tziOm> not braindead, no
[21:07:03] <Jacky^> Debian based ?
[21:07:12] <tziOm> no
[21:07:19] <Jacky^> ouch :\
[21:07:33] <Jacky^> i cant help you then ..
[21:07:42] <Jacky^> i just used the deb package
[21:08:18] <Jacky^> Red hat ?
[21:08:36] <Jacky^> maybe you can convert the package
[21:08:57] <Jacky^> or decomprime it then try manually install .. or compile
[21:09:08] <Jacky^> i dont know how much hard it is :(
[21:09:41] <tziOm> rtai does have some strange versioning..
[21:09:52] <tziOm> and some absurd way of getting the software
[21:10:07] <tziOm> the 3.3 series is not available for download.. atleast I cant find itl
[21:10:53] <Jacky^> deb http://mirrors.neuron.com/emc-bdi/apt/ sarge updates extras
[21:11:43] <Jacky^> there probably is the the latest magma kernel package.. if you want try to hack the package..
[21:11:59] <Jacky^> good luck :)
[21:14:18] <tziOm> Think I got it now..
[21:20:38] <K`zan> G'day all.
[21:20:47] <etla> hi
[21:21:11] <Jacky^> G evening 21:45 ;P
[21:21:21] <etla> 22:46 over here
[21:21:32] <Jacky^> wow
[21:21:33] <K`zan> 1245 here (PST8PDT) :-)
[21:21:58] <K`zan> Up too late last night and up too late today :).
[21:25:22] <etla> Kzan what kind of cnc do u have ?
[21:27:01] <K`zan> etla: At the moment 4 floppy steppers and all the driver sellers bookmarked and about worn out :-). Down to the HobbyCNC driver I think. Will eventually be getting a Taig vertical mini-mill, but for an educational project I will make a "PCB router"...
[21:27:26] <etla> ok!
[21:28:53] <etla> one of the machines I use: http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/2004_11cnc/machine.jpg
[21:29:53] <etla> it's an Opti BF20 (www.optimum-maschinen.de) on which we've put steppers controlled with geckodrives
[21:32:38] <etla> good night.
[21:37:26] <K`zan> Nice! Considered the gekko drives, but they are (A) expensive and (B) look like they are sealed (throw away - not fix if necessary).
[21:37:54] <icee> agh.
[21:38:00] <icee> EMC/RTAI are frustrating
[21:38:01] <tziOm> the geckos contain nothing more than hobbycncs.. same thing inside.. dont pay $$$$ for plastic casing.
[21:38:18] <icee> adeos/rtai == a joke of a rtos
[21:39:02] <K`zan> tziOm: Thanks for the input there, I am about decided on the HobbyCNC stuff. It doesn't say it works with EMC, but from what I know now, it seems that it should ?!?
[21:39:24] <cradek> K`zan: is it step/dir?
[21:39:32] <K`zan> Wonder how many folks here use the HobbyCNC stuff and what they use as a controller?
[21:39:50] <tziOm> co0ntroller?
[21:39:52] <tziOm> emc?
[21:39:59] <K`zan> Seems so, but I was up WAY too late last night :-) and am a bit fuzzy :-).
[21:40:42] <K`zan> cradek: Yes: http://www.hobbycnc.com/driverboards/4aupc/4aupc.htm
[21:41:36] <K`zan> cradek: Again, appreciate that link to your site, it has been most informative and helpful. For my second set of drivers I intend to build the ones you point to (prolly the HV version).
[21:41:42] <Jacky^> 3.0 Amps Maximum per Phase ..
[21:41:51] <Jacky^> right price
[21:41:52] <K`zan> Speaking of which...
[21:42:05] <Jacky^> 42VDC maximum input voltage
[21:42:21] <Jacky^> look at gecko .. it may run at 80 V
[21:42:24] <cradek> looks nice enough, except it's too bad it's unipolar only
[21:42:25] <Jacky^> 20 A ..
[21:42:41] <cradek> K`zan: you're welcome, I'm glad the site is helpful; that was my goal
[21:42:42] <tziOm> why would you want 80v
[21:42:51] <K`zan> It says 500mA minimum and 3A max, the steppers I use (ATM) hit 2-300 mA (prolly more peak), I wonder if it will work with these.
[21:42:52] <Jacky^> a bit double ..
[21:42:53] <tziOm> only reason hobbys aint more is that it is no need fo ritl
[21:42:57] <Jacky^> :)
[21:43:04] <cradek> tziOm: because the max velocity varies linearly with the voltage
[21:43:18] <tziOm> cradek - then just change the fets
[21:43:46] <Jacky^> usually higghest voltage best performance minor current ..
[21:44:06] <cradek> K`zan: 500mA may be the lowest you can set the chopper
[21:44:14] <tziOm> probably
[21:44:20] <cradek> K`zan: you may have to change the sense resistors. no big deal.
[21:44:36] <K`zan> Ah, that makes me feel better cradek :-).
[21:44:37] <tziOm> but you can perhaps go by that by adding another current-sensing resistor in parallel
[21:44:55] <cradek> no, you will need a higer resistance, not lower
[21:44:59] <cradek> higher
[21:45:00] <K`zan> I will prolly go with huskier steppers in time, but I got these to play with for now.
[21:46:00] <K`zan> Started looking for lead/ball screws to drive last night - scary, no prices (if you gotta ask, you can't afford 'em :-). THinking about all-thread from HomeDepot...
[21:46:15] <cradek> at least go with acme
[21:46:26] <tziOm> yep
[21:46:31] <tziOm> that are cheap
[21:46:32] <K`zan> I hope there is someplace where you can specify travel/rev in the controller setup...
[21:46:39] <cradek> yes of course
[21:46:43] <tziOm> hehe
[21:46:48] <K`zan> Would *like* 0.1/rev...
[21:46:57] <cradek> K`zan: http://gonebowlin.com/dumpsterCNC/
[21:47:19] <cradek> K`zan: look at these delrin leadnuts and the matching leadscrew from mcmaster-carr
[21:47:23] <K`zan> Heh, most likely place for me to get stuff for this ATM ;-) LOL
[21:47:40] <cradek> K`zan: I use these now, they give good results (no backlash) and were affordable
[21:48:04] <cradek> I use the 1/4" 16tpi leadscrew
[21:48:08] <Jacky^> cradek: it can mahed homebuilt
[21:48:12] <Jacky^> very simple
[21:48:20] <Jacky^> a piece of nylon
[21:48:27] <Jacky^> or better.. teflon
[21:48:29] <cradek> Jacky^: everything can be made at home, but not for $13 worth of trouble
[21:48:42] <Jacky^> my cousin has made it
[21:48:46] <Jacky^> very simple..
[21:48:48] <K`zan> cradek: THanks, will check that out. Was surprised that Enco didn't have any...
[21:49:04] <tziOm> spend time saving money other places.
[21:49:10] <tziOm> this seems like a good buy
[21:49:12] <cradek> K`zan: happily you can order one piece of 3' or 6' leadscrew from mcmaster
[21:49:23] <cradek> (for a fair price)
[21:49:44] <K`zan> 3' sounds like a place to start here with the steppers I have and the space I have to work in / with.
[21:49:51] <Jacky^> K`zan: you can buy a rounder bar of nylon, cut a disc
[21:50:02] <Jacky^> then cut to half ..
[21:50:11] <K`zan> Jacky^: THe only tools I have now are hand or average shop power tools...
[21:50:20] <K`zan> Woodworking primarily.
[21:50:22] <Jacky^> half to bottom half to up
[21:50:33] <cradek> I have a nice lathe and I wouldn't bother making these when I can buy them cheaply
[21:50:40] <Jacky^> auto regulation :)
[21:50:45] <cradek> I save my effort for pieces I *can't* buy cheaply
[21:50:46] <tziOm> reboot => 2.6.13.4-rtai
[21:50:59] <K`zan> Then I will need pillow blocks and guide rods and all that, Fun :).
[21:51:35] <K`zan> Might go look for an XY table just to see what is out there for $$$, prolly out of my budget, but it is fun (and informative) to look.
[21:51:55] <cradek> I've seen some inexpensive (manual) ones but who knows if they are any good
[21:52:25] <K`zan> Wonder if drawer slides might work....
[21:54:53] <K`zan> Gonna have to understand what they are talking about with those nuts...
[21:54:57] <icee> anyone here running EMC2 on BDI?
[21:55:06] <Jacky^> icee: yes
[21:55:49] <icee> jacky: how'd you get it to work? After compiling it, with the default ini, half the times i start it the whole machine hangs
[21:55:55] <icee> the other half it starts up but i get following errors
[21:56:20] <Jacky^> which cpu ? how many ram ?
[21:56:31] <icee> athlon 600, 128 megs
[21:56:43] <icee> i'm not running out of ram as far as i can tell
[21:56:44] <cradek> might be the PERIOD is too small
[21:56:45] <Jacky^> im using a celeron 800 with 256,
[21:56:57] <Jacky^> right, check period
[21:57:31] <Jacky^> i used default values.. but your cpu is smallest
[21:57:36] <icee> if i turn period up, won't that make the following erorr worse?
[21:57:42] <icee> an athlon 600 ought to be faster than a celeron 800
[21:58:26] <Jacky^> you changed the default ini ?
[21:58:41] <Jacky^> did*
[21:58:41] <icee> nope
[21:59:03] <Jacky^> strange .. for me work fine
[21:59:15] <icee> jacky: which bdi version are you on?
[21:59:22] <Jacky^> a moment
[21:59:34] <icee> i'm running the latest (4.30)
[22:00:11] <Jacky^> i think its not different ..
[22:00:23] <icee> well, the kernel has changed
[22:00:25] <Jacky^> the mie was 4.20 ..
[22:00:33] <Jacky^> Linux localhost.localdomain 2.6.12.6-magma #1 Thu Sep 15 03:18:04 BST 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
[22:00:41] <icee> hm, ok, nevermind
[22:01:13] <Jacky^> try to increase a bit the period ..
[22:01:30] <icee> yah.. i'll play with it.. thanks
[22:02:13] <Jacky^> BASE_PERIOD = 0.000050
[22:02:18] <Jacky^> work for me ..
[22:02:40] <icee> the nice thing is it broke my emc1 install, too :P
[22:02:54] <Jacky^> mmhh
[22:03:00] <icee> which had been before working beautifully
[22:03:02] <Jacky^> i found emc2 work very nice
[22:03:20] <Jacky^> i won't cambe back to emc1 ..
[22:03:40] <Jacky^> at least.. if no drivers founded
[22:03:52] <Jacky^> for the card i use
[22:04:57] <les> here's a strange thing...I am having to source some steppers!!
[22:05:13] <Jacky^> anyway.. to be honest, i dont like amd cpu ..
[22:05:29] <Jacky^> never used :(
[22:05:50] <icee> hm. These days all Intel has going for them are brand name in the desktop processor market
[22:06:04] <icee> AMD parts are just as reliable, cost less, and dissipate less energy/MIP
[22:06:11] <K`zan> Yeah, bless 'em and IBM who kept them alive back in the dark ages...
[22:06:20] <Jacky^> i prefer ol celeron, cheaper .. or pentium
[22:06:36] <Jacky^> hey les
[22:06:38] <K`zan> * K`zan will not have Intel *anything*, I prefer to support engineers and not lawyers.
[22:07:01] <Jacky^> K`zan: good ..
[22:07:18] <K`zan> * K`zan last intel was a 286/20 :-)
[22:07:37] <Jacky^> i start rejecting amd based cpu havin a lot of issue compiling kernels and video drivers ..
[22:07:48] <Jacky^> ill never buy it again :\
[22:08:00] <K`zan> Never had a problem with AMDs *NONE* to date.
[22:08:06] <icee> j: odds are that was a bad motherboard or bad memory
[22:09:15] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ is in love with is P4 3 ghz
[22:09:22] <Jacky^> flyy :)
[22:09:49] <les> So customer called and they want more torque for new devices to use in a tester I made for them
[22:09:58] <K`zan> * K`zan is in love with her XP3200+
[22:10:00] <les> I used old 5804 uni drivers
[22:10:09] <anonimasu> les: upgrade = $$$
[22:10:27] <les> now they want twice the torque
[22:10:38] <les> don't worry...I am charging a lot.
[22:11:00] <les> I was at single stack nema 17
[22:11:10] <les> gosh an EAD motor I think
[22:11:18] <les> single stack
[22:11:26] <les> better go to double
[22:12:10] <les> hmm 44 oz in...that out to do it
[22:12:15] <les> ought
[22:13:40] <anonimasu> :)
[22:13:51] <anonimasu> what are they testing with them?
[22:14:16] <les> a golf cart throttle position sensor
[22:14:32] <les> They decided to put a strong return spring in it
[22:14:43] <les> so I need more torque
[22:15:30] <les> my box actuates the sensor, graphs the output, logs it, and reads a barcode.
[22:15:35] <anonimasu> lol
[22:15:48] <les> Needs to be faster too. Will go from usb to ethernet
[22:16:10] <anonimasu> usb isnt fast enough?
[22:16:16] <anonimasu> that seems strange
[22:16:23] <Jacky^> me too ..
[22:16:31] <les> no it is dog slow for 2 way comms due to packet rate
[22:17:07] <les> I used it on the old fixture so it would be convenirent in laptops
[22:17:17] <icee> 12mbit USB?
[22:17:27] <icee> because USB high speed ought to be >ethernet
[22:17:49] <les> data rate is fast icee, but packet rate is not
[22:18:04] <les> even with subframes
[22:18:37] <les> so two way usb communication is slow even though the peak data rate is fast
[22:19:09] <les> renders it pretty useless for high speed srvos for example
[22:19:19] <anonimasu> les: why do you need that much high speed data transfer?
[22:19:21] <les> servos
[22:19:30] <icee> les: are you using isochronous transfers?
[22:19:40] <les> I don't.
[22:19:50] <icee> les: if the bus is scheduled properly you ought to be able to do 100mbit down and 100mbit up
[22:19:50] <les> icee I used this inside the box:
[22:20:21] <les> http://www.audon.co.uk/labjack.html
[22:20:22] <icee> the software defined radio i built easily did 50mbit/sec each way full duplex
[22:21:03] <les> I used the oem board version
[22:24:24] <icee> yah.. it would have been a lot better if they had decided to use an isochronous interface rather than a polling one
[22:24:40] <les> it's really slow icee
[22:24:50] <les> It was fine for the sales tool
[22:24:54] <les> perfect
[22:25:01] <les> we wanted it slow
[22:25:21] <les> now it's time to revise it for production testing
[22:25:32] <les> so it is too slow
[22:25:38] <les> looking at this:
[22:25:59] <les> http://www.audon.co.uk/ue9.html
[22:26:22] <les> and that would work with my original gui and software
[22:26:25] <icee> I wouldn't bet on that being better
[22:26:36] <les> let's see
[22:26:56] <icee> turnaround time of ethernet frames on 10baset is not much better in bus cycles
[22:27:04] <icee> and there's less bus cycles on 10mbit ethernet than 12mbit usb
[22:27:51] <anonimasu> les: what kind of data are you receiving that requires that kind of speed?
[22:28:15] <icee> anonimasu: and what kinds of sample rates do you get out of the former one? it looks like a neat toy.
[22:29:00] <anonimasu> me?
[22:29:03] <icee> er
[22:29:04] <icee> sorry
[22:29:08] <icee> stupid tab thingy
[22:29:11] <icee> make that les: ;P
[22:30:36] <les> anon I don't need speed
[22:31:15] <les> the ue9 appears about 10-15 times faster in command/response
[22:32:42] <icee> les: just on ethernet, or on both ethernet and usb?
[22:33:08] <les> understand the original labjack u12 is cute, and cheap, and linux ready...but
[22:33:26] <les> an individual analog read takes 20 milliseconds!!!
[22:33:45] <icee> yah.. that's a feature of their firmware running on the device tho
[22:33:55] <les> the ue9 appears faster on both usb and ethrnet
[22:34:05] <les> yes it's their firmware
[22:35:23] <icee> heh
[22:35:23] <icee> http://www.audon.co.uk/ue9.html
[22:35:24] <icee> er
[22:35:28] <icee> A USB high-high configuration means the UE9 is connected to a high-speed USB2 hub which
[22:35:28] <icee> is then connected to a high-speed USB2 host. Even though the UE9 is not a high-speed USB
[22:35:28] <icee> device, such a configuration does provide improved performance.
[22:35:37] <icee> That's a nice sign of broken firmware on the UE9, too
[22:35:47] <les> the things are quite popular...but slow.
[22:36:05] <les> What does that mean icee? they wrote better code???
[22:36:14] <les> like not polling?
[22:38:36] <les> I talk to their software guys a lot...I have too. their funny scripting language is not as well documented as I would like
[22:38:43] <les> but
[22:38:56] <les> the things are really popular.
[22:39:05] <les> They are making a ton of money.
[22:40:03] <icee> well, i think it's still polling
[22:40:12] <les> probably
[22:40:16] <icee> i'm just saying, it's very odd that they get higher performance by putting a translating hub in the middle
[22:40:31] <Jacky^> les: do you remember my plan machine ? 1x1 mt .. wood cnc
[22:40:36] <icee> there's something wrong with their queueing or how they're enumerating for that to be the case
[22:40:56] <Jacky^> you sayd twin screw are needed for moving gantry ..
[22:40:59] <les> something big time. how can a read take 20 milliseconds?
[22:41:22] <les> jacky, yes in genral twin screws are needed
[22:41:33] <Jacky^> its ok 2 pulley with strap to sincronyze the screws ?
[22:42:13] <les> hmm one meter...
[22:42:22] <les> forgot...using g340?
[22:42:27] <Jacky^> i asked to my cousin.. he sayd pulley ..
[22:42:33] <Jacky^> yes, G340
[22:42:43] <Jacky^> 250 watts servos
[22:43:10] <les> ok. yeah for one meter wood only that would be ok if you use curvelinear tooth profile like GT2.
[22:43:46] <Jacky^> good :)
[22:45:10] <les> icee: the things are crude, slow, but seemingly wildly popular
[22:45:26] <les> =cheap
[22:50:32] <K`zan> 1G SD card just arrived:
[22:50:32] <K`zan> /dev/sda1 971M 0 971M 0% /fdrv
[22:50:39] <K`zan> Coolness :-).
[22:50:51] <K`zan> * K`zan does Happy Dance
[22:50:59] <Jacky^> lol
[22:51:04] <Jacky^> :)
[22:51:31] <K`zan> I got old 3.5" HDs in the closet that are FAR less than that.
[22:51:33] <K`zan> LOL
[22:52:14] <Jacky^> how fast is to read/write ?
[22:52:23] <Jacky^> tested with hdparm ?
[22:52:28] <K`zan> 10 MB/S IIRC
[22:52:32] <Jacky^> nice
[22:52:45] <Jacky^> hi rayh
[22:52:50] <K`zan> nope, no idea how and "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" :-).
[22:52:58] <rayh> Hey how you doing?
[22:53:14] <Jacky^> rayh: nice here
[22:53:25] <K`zan> There is a way to make them bootable but I suppose the biggie is whether the MB can actually do it.
[22:53:27] <rayh> Good.
[22:54:54] <Jacky^> K`zan: yes
[22:55:21] <rayh> jepler: I just got a no go from your download site. To much traffic?
[22:55:28] <K`zan> Don't remember USB being a boot option on any MBs I have unless that falls under "Other Boot Devices".
[22:55:45] <jepler> rayh: no, it should be working at the moment.
[22:56:13] <jepler> rayh: I must have posted a bum URL
[22:56:46] <rayh> The script serving this site just crashed. Sorry.
[22:56:46] <rayh> Traceback (most recent call last):
[22:56:47] <rayh> File "/var/www/axis/index.cgi", line 2068, in ?
[22:56:47] <rayh> main()
[22:56:48] <rayh> File "/var/www/axis/index.cgi", line 1976, in main
[22:56:48] <rayh> raise Error('AETHER_ROOT incorrect in .htaccess?')
[22:56:49] <rayh> Error: Error: AETHER_ROOT incorrect in .htaccess?
[22:57:15] <jepler> this is the correct URL: http://axis.unpy.net/index.cgi/downloads/nightly
[22:59:14] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[22:59:17] <anonimasu> I need another cup of tea
[22:59:41] <cradek> jepler: did your override limits add another row to the f3 tab?
[22:59:48] <rayh> jepler: I "see it now." (ed murrow)
[22:59:50] <jepler> cradek: yes
[22:59:54] <jepler> rayh: good
[22:59:55] <Jacky^> anonimasu: try with coffe :P
[23:00:04] <cradek> jepler: then you're over the 800x600 goal
[23:00:05] <Jacky^> double strong
[23:00:11] <anonimasu> nah
[23:00:14] <anonimasu> tea is nicer..
[23:00:15] <Jacky^> :D
[23:00:22] <Jacky^> i dont like tea
[23:00:27] <Jacky^> bleah :\
[23:00:41] <Jacky^> isnt eccitant
[23:00:51] <les> oh..I am OUT odf coffee!!!!
[23:00:59] <les> thanks for reminding me
[23:01:08] <Jacky^> i like black coffe .. joint
[23:01:10] <Jacky^> hahaha
[23:01:13] <Jacky^> kidding
[23:01:20] <Jacky^> coca
[23:01:22] <Jacky^> :D
[23:01:27] <Jacky^> lol
[23:01:31] <jepler> cradek: heck
[23:01:47] <K`zan> works here - nice!
[23:01:54] <les> I am going to the store right now
[23:02:10] <cradek> jepler: it could go on a menu, I guess, but ick
[23:02:11] <anonimasu> ok
[23:02:13] <anonimasu> laters les
[23:02:28] <cradek> jepler: I guess it's a little icky that it works on all three axes but is with the per-axis stuff.
[23:02:34] <jepler> cradek: maybe move zero offset / home onto one row?
[23:03:26] <cradek> I have to go - we'll experiment with it I guess.
[23:05:18] <jepler> I notice the minimum window size is wrong now too
[23:05:26] <jepler> (I can resize it so that not all of the f3 tab fits)
[23:16:13] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh-away
[23:33:53] <LawrenceG> anyone looking for a project?
[23:33:56] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7551794416&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
[23:34:26] <LawrenceG> its too far away for me...
[23:35:34] <LawrenceG> for less than the price of a maxnc, you can have 2500lbs of cast iron in your living room
[23:35:52] <jepler> and a tape reader
[23:36:08] <LawrenceG> thats the best part!
[23:36:11] <jepler> it's not for me, maybe if I had a spare garage stall to put it in, and the money to have it shipped
[23:36:29] <jepler> oh, and 460V 3-phase power
[23:37:21] <LawrenceG> its looks like a good conversion project.... just need an inverter for the spindle drive and run it on 230 single phase
[23:37:45] <LawrenceG> its only 2hp
[23:38:16] <les> hi lawrence
[23:38:19] <les> ok price
[23:38:26] <les> 8 min left
[23:38:44] <LawrenceG> Hi Les...will see what happens in the next few minutes...
[23:38:46] <anonimasu> hm
[23:39:22] <LawrenceG> I like the table size... not quite as big as some of the 9x42" tables
[23:40:26] <les> there is one just like that sitting in a town in the next county...I went to pick it up but the owner left it out in the rain.
[23:40:32] <K`zan> Sigh: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridgeport-CNC-Mill-Vertical-Mill_W0QQitemZ7551794416QQcategoryZ12584QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[23:40:50] <les> So it was junk. Too bad. It was from a school , so almost no use.
[23:41:59] <les> I now have a larger Hurco to look at. $1000.
[23:42:24] <LawrenceG> yes, the schools here had some nice units, but everybody was afraid to turn them on... now its too much of a liablity issue
[23:42:47] <les> right
[23:43:03] <les> that mill will snipe to $1,000?
[23:43:05] <les> think?
[23:43:27] <LawrenceG> probably... a bunch of ebay nubbies bidding at the moment
[23:43:56] <les> oh, those giant boxes on the old boss machines..
[23:44:26] <LawrenceG> climb in and hide from the coolant spray!
[23:44:32] <les> one minute and no snipes!
[23:44:53] <LawrenceG> not a manual machine... would be great for emc conversion
[23:44:54] <les> oh 1025!
[23:45:45] <les> 1225. too much.
[23:45:48] <LawrenceG> yep... a pro sniper got it
[23:46:46] <LawrenceG> hard to tell from the pix if its has been worn out cutting graphite
[23:46:52] <les> those things go low because they don't have handwheels
[23:46:59] <les> ways were badly worn
[23:47:16] <les> frosting gone on the outside
[23:47:22] <les> even with chrome
[23:47:47] <LawrenceG> only one hole in the table
[23:47:55] <les> heh
[23:48:15] <LawrenceG> I think I killed my table in the first 10 minutes
[23:48:23] <les> ?
[23:48:33] <anonimasu> hm is graphite hard to machine?
[23:49:01] <les> graphite is as hard as a diamond in some directions, but very soft in others
[23:49:14] <LawrenceG> abrasive black dust.... the stuff they use for edm electrodes is nasty
[23:49:20] <les> yup
[23:49:38] <anonimasu> les: presumably not the stuff they make EDM electrodes off..
[23:49:39] <anonimasu> :)
[23:49:47] <les> yes it is
[23:49:57] <anonimasu> how do you machine that?
[23:50:31] <les> it is lamellar..so it machines ok...but dulls and wears things
[23:50:41] <LawrenceG> not in a white tuxedo :}
[23:50:50] <les> like teakwood...
[23:50:59] <anonimasu> hm ok
[23:51:00] <les> soft wood...silica in the cells
[23:52:38] <anonimasu> yep
[23:53:31] <les> edm electrodes are only machined by priests with collars removed and chimney sweeps.
[23:54:24] <anonimasu> heh