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[00:13:35] <Roguish> hello all.
[00:13:41] <Roguish> little help in tuning?
[00:14:24] <Roguish> is there a signal or pin or something that i can use with halscope to get a graph of actual velocity vs. time?
[00:14:36] <fenn> you have to use a ddt component i think
[00:14:47] <fenn> look at the servo sim hal file
[00:15:27] <fenn> configs/sim/servo_sim.hal
[00:18:49] <Roguish> still here, checking on that suggestion.....
[00:22:40] <Roguish> how about 'pid.0.output' ?
[00:23:42] <Roguish> or 'pid.0.commandDD' ?
[00:24:04] <jepler> those are different than the velocity
[00:24:47] <Roguish> i'm looking to plot the typical velocity vs. time for a step input.
[00:30:27] <jepler> the way to do this is with a ddt block, as fenn suggests
[00:30:52] <Roguish> i'm looking at the file he suggested.
[00:31:07] <Roguish> so, loadrt blocks etc..
[00:34:25] <jepler> yes
[00:34:26] <jepler> loadrt blocks ddt=6 hypot=2
[00:34:40] <jepler> this one loads 6 copies of 'ddt', one for each of the 6 axes
[00:35:14] <jepler> then for each axis you add a function to the servo-thread: addf ddt.0 servo-thread
[00:35:30] <Roguish> i'm going really simple right now, just 1 axis system. it is a m5i20, with a yaskawa motor and drive.
[00:35:51] <jepler> oh, it's not one for each of the 6 axes -- it's for 3 axes, but it calculates the velocity and the acceleration both
[00:36:02] <jepler> then the next part is the creation and hookup of the signals:
[00:36:03] <jepler> newsig Xvel float
[00:36:03] <jepler> newsig Xacc float
[00:36:03] <jepler> linksp Xpos => ddt.0.in
[00:36:03] <jepler> linkps ddt.0.out => Xvel
[00:36:16] <jepler> after you put all this in your .hal you can look at Xvel in halscope
[00:36:36] <fenn> seems kinda goofy don't it?
[00:36:49] <Roguish> jepler: thanks, i think i just came up with the same from looking at the servo_sim.hal file......
[00:36:51] <jepler> oh, missed a bit
[00:36:52] <jepler> # loop position commands back to motion module feedback
[00:36:52] <jepler> linksp Xpos => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
[00:37:08] <jepler> so this will all be based on the feedback position, which I think is what you want
[00:37:17] <Roguish> correct
[00:39:03] <fenn> does PID calculate velocity and accel internally?
[00:39:27] <fenn> * fenn looks
[00:42:42] <fenn> yes, it does calc velocity, but its exported as a parameter called errorD
[00:42:55] <fenn> (derivative of the position error)
[00:43:05] <fenn> although thats not quite the same is it
[01:04:25] <zwisk> Greetings all...
[01:05:43] <cradek> hi zwisk
[01:05:53] <zwisk> hey, we meet again :)
[01:06:06] <zwisk> So, I lied... :) Wasn't smooth sailing with the latest head afterall.
[01:06:18] <cradek> oh yeah?
[01:06:41] <zwisk> I'm beating my head against a rather large bed over why the parallel port doesn't seem to work anymore. Hmmph.
[01:06:54] <zwisk> Other than that, everything seems swell!
[01:07:26] <zwisk> If I poke at it directly from C at it's base address, it steps just fine, but hal_parport doesn't seem to be doing anything useful with it.
[01:08:14] <cradek> does hal_parport load?
[01:08:37] <cradek> we made a change some time back which causes hal_parport to require exclusive access of rthe paort
[01:08:53] <cradek> of the port
[01:09:05] <zwisk> yep. It's a tad odd though; it requires parport and parport_pc be unloaded, which is new... (maybe what you're describing.)
[01:09:21] <cradek> yes parport_pc
[01:09:25] <zwisk> The interesting thing is that when I unload those modules, my C program when hitting the base address directly doesn't work either...
[01:10:19] <cradek> this is a normal onboard parport?
[01:10:27] <zwisk> Yep.
[01:10:49] <zwisk> It's base address is at 0x3bc rather than 0x378 though. Not a big deal; the config file (and dmesg) seems to suggest it's doing the right thing there.
[01:11:23] <cradek> [4314158.635080] config string '0x0378'
[01:11:23] <cradek> [4314158.635212] PARPORT: installed driver for 1 ports
[01:11:30] <cradek> you get this fine?
[01:12:08] <zwisk> yep...
[01:12:09] <zwisk> [ 2045.538536] config string '0x03bc'
[01:12:09] <zwisk> [ 2045.539398] PARPORT: installed driver for 1 ports
[01:12:27] <cradek> huh
[01:12:36] <cradek> you did a cvs up which is what broke it right?
[01:13:03] <zwisk> yeah. (Well, actually I did a fresh cvs checkout... been burnt by the -d thing a few times unexpectedly :) )
[01:13:11] <fenn> zwisk: it does work correctly if you rmmod parport_pc, right?
[01:13:39] <zwisk> Hmm... you mean rmmod parport_pc and not rmmod parport? I'm not *positive* I've tried that combination...
[01:13:50] <fenn> well, i'm just verifying that it actually still works
[01:13:56] <cradek> yes parport_pc is the one to unload on ubuntu at elast
[01:13:58] <zwisk> right now it's dead in the water...
[01:14:02] <cradek> least
[01:14:14] <cradek> darn 10 second typing latency
[01:14:22] <zwisk> I can step with both modules loaded by outb'ing stuff directly to the base address.
[01:14:28] <fenn> 10 seconds is quite a bit
[01:14:33] <cradek> sure
[01:14:51] <cradek> but you're not protected from other stuff writing the port too
[01:14:54] <zwisk> I'll go give a try with parport loaded and see if that helps.
[01:14:55] <cradek> that's why we made this change
[01:15:06] <cradek> chris@buster2:~$ cat /etc/modprobe.d/emc2
[01:15:06] <cradek> install parport_pc /bin/true
[01:15:25] <zwisk> Yeah... I had some 'fun' in debian convincing cups it shouldn't run, and lp not to do anything.
[01:15:45] <cradek> this is how you disable the loading of parport_pc in ubuntu breezy
[01:16:18] <cradek> it seems like you have a bug though, if it loads but doesn't work for some reason
[01:16:44] <zwisk> It could be 'user error'. I've encountered that bug a few times :)
[01:17:01] <cradek> haha me too
[01:17:08] <cradek> must be a common error
[01:18:47] <jepler> I notice that the linux parport_pc driver will do ISAPNP style configuration of the parallel port, while hal_parport will not
[01:18:50] <zwisk> yeah... strange that *that* one hasn't been fixed. :)
[01:19:08] <zwisk> So, with parport and not parport_pc, it still doesn't work.
[01:19:21] <zwisk> Does hal_parport still just shove data using outb to the base address?
[01:19:28] <jepler> zwisk: yes, basically
[01:19:36] <zwisk> My C program *only* seems to work in that mode when parport_pc is loaded.
[01:20:02] <zwisk> I may try removing the restrictions in hal_parport that check for exclusivity and see if that fixes my problem. If so, we can figure out what the general issue might be...
[01:20:14] <cradek> I wonder if your port is set to a strange mode in the bios
[01:20:25] <jepler> there's a lot more logic in parport_pc than hal_parport and I'd hate to have it all in both places
[01:21:05] <jepler> but it may not even be safe to load parport_pc depending on the attached hardware
[01:21:33] <zwisk> I *think* (though would have to reboot to be sure) that I have it on the simplest parallelport mode... (whatever's "below" EPP, I think.) But it's been ... a really long time ... since I've had to play with that.
[01:21:38] <cradek> "everyone else" so far has been fine with not loading parport_pc
[01:21:59] <cradek> so my gut tells me you should look elsewhere, starting with the simple stuff like bios config
[01:22:12] <cradek> I think mine are set to "bidir" everywhere
[01:22:19] <zwisk> hmm.. this is a thinkpad laptop. It could be 'odd'. It's nice having a little portable thing with a built in monitor.
[01:22:31] <cradek> ouch, it sure could be
[01:22:52] <jepler> zwisk: so when you unload parport_pc does the port stop working even if it was working before?
[01:23:02] <jepler> (when driving it with outb() from userspace)
[01:23:25] <zwisk> jepler: yes. outb() from userspace stops working when parallel_pc is unloaded.
[01:25:39] <cradek> that seems very funky doesn't it
[01:25:43] <zwisk> yep...
[01:25:54] <zwisk> Sure enough, removing the locking code from hal_parport.c fixes it.
[01:25:58] <zwisk> The machine runs quite well that way.
[01:26:08] <zwisk> Ok... so... That's one for a FAQ someplace.
[01:26:08] <cradek> oy
[01:26:20] <zwisk> I'll reboot my pc and see what my bios says, and see if it can be fixed with the bios now....
[01:27:18] <zwisk> basically, my fix was to comment out line 300-315 of hal_parport.c (which I think is head of CVS right now...)
[01:27:29] <jepler> approximately lines 1150 through 3429 of parport_pc.c are concerned with detection and configuration of parallel ports
[01:27:47] <jepler> it appears to be a very complex task
[01:29:31] <zwisk> So, I am in just "bi-directional" mode in the bios... 3bc/irq7. That's the whole of what I can control through the bios, except for disabling the port.
[01:29:45] <zwisk> I guess I'll try ECP for kicks and see i that behaves any differently...
[01:29:58] <jepler> weird -- it lists the I/O address in the bios, but that doesn't work?
[01:30:02] <cradek> or standard/AT/whatever the simple one is
[01:30:04] <jepler> * jepler shakes his head
[01:30:07] <jepler> SPP?
[01:30:58] <cradek> assuming you're running in output mode, that is
[01:31:32] <zwisk> Hmm... interesting... I don't get EPP as an option at 0x3bc, but I do at 0x378. Odd. I vaguely remember having some conflict long ago at 0x378. Maybe I'll try 0x378 and bidirectional and see if that's different.
[01:31:50] <zwisk> SPP? (I'm not up on my p-port terms? I don't have that as an option.)
[01:31:58] <cradek> what are the options?
[01:32:52] <zwisk> On 0x3bc I have output, bi-directional, and ecp (I think... just rebooted so it's not on screen anymore.)
[01:33:00] <zwisk> at 0x378 I also get epp as an option.
[01:33:30] <cradek> maybe "output" is SPP (normal unidirectional AT parport mode)
[01:33:47] <zwisk> That sounds reasonable.
[01:35:56] <cradek> have you ever run the latency tests on your laptop? is this the one you're using to run the bridgeport?
[01:36:51] <zwisk> I haven't run the latency tests on it... but yes, it's currently on the bridgeport. THe bridgeport tends to be pretty heavy, and I rarely run it fast anyways...
[01:36:59] <zwisk> I should see where it falls down though.
[01:37:55] <cradek> jymmm worked for a long time to find the cause of his occasional missed steps and ruined parts, and when he finally said he was using a laptop, we tested it and found it totally busted for realtime
[01:38:28] <cradek> I always run the latency tests on any new machine, so many of them just don't work, and laptops are the worst
[01:38:29] <zwisk> argh. That's a shame. It's so nice having the keyboard and screen right there...
[01:38:49] <cradek> well some do work, I got lucky with one of mine, but you should find out for sure!
[01:39:09] <fenn> cradek: onboard video shouldnt cause problems if you're not actually using it, right?
[01:39:35] <zwisk> Ok, so... 0x378 with Bi-directional also fails the exact same way (expected, but verified...)
[01:39:48] <cradek> fenn: if you put in a different video card, the motherboard often does work fine, if that's what you mean...?
[01:40:29] <fenn> well, i have these little boxen i'd like to manage remotely, but they have onboard video
[01:40:38] <fenn> it's a feature
[01:40:53] <cradek> you mean you don't even want to run X on them? they won't hurt anything I bet
[01:41:20] <cradek> on the mazak everything was fine until you moved a window
[01:41:23] <fenn> what are the symptoms? you get overruns when moving windows around and stuff
[01:41:28] <cradek> yes
[01:41:29] <fenn> ok
[01:41:35] <cradek> it's very easy to spot
[01:42:09] <cradek> after we put in the different video card, I started a dozen X apps at once and let it swap for a while, with no overruns
[01:42:31] <fenn> kde sure takes a long time to start apps
[01:42:45] <fenn> i dont think i could start 12 at once in icewm.. i'm not quick enough
[01:43:03] <cradek> if they're ooffice and firefox, you could
[01:45:03] <fenn> * fenn hits the sack
[01:45:08] <cradek> bye
[01:45:20] <zwisk> hmm... while the axis team is here... I am getting a "axisui.jog.x not found" error... can't find the hal pin I guess.
[01:45:29] <zwisk> g'night fenn...
[01:45:35] <cradek> in your config, add HALFILE=core_axis.hal
[01:45:48] <cradek> that's jogwheel support
[01:46:30] <zwisk> okie..
[01:48:14] <jepler> "axisui.jog.x not found" doesn't do any harm, either
[01:49:27] <zwisk> yeah... just noticed it. The HALFILE addition fixed it.
[01:50:35] <zwisk> Well... drag.... It looks like the *only* way I can get hal to ouput through the parallel port is to remove the checks for exclusivity and leave parport_pc installed. Tried a number of combinations of EPP/Bidirectional and base addresses (since it seems to matter some) and all work with parallel_pc loaded (and hal_parport mod'd) and none work without it. Bummer.
[01:51:38] <zwisk> Thanks for the clue about the recent change to hal_parport, cradek...
[01:51:45] <cradek> sure
[01:51:50] <zwisk> I guess it wasn't a user error this time afterall.
[01:52:06] <cradek> sucks though, we were sure that change would be good for everyone
[01:52:20] <zwisk> It's great in theory. I like the idea.
[01:52:44] <cradek> too many people had problems with other apps messing up their machine.
[01:53:01] <zwisk> I wonder if I'm alone with this problem, or if others are just not on the bleeding edge to experience this yet...
[01:53:16] <cradek> that change is in the released emc 2.0.1
[01:53:25] <cradek> many many people are using it
[01:53:31] <zwisk> hmm... that should be getting pretty good test coverage.
[01:54:04] <cradek> I think most people avoid laptops.
[01:54:57] <cradek> if you're running paul's rtai packages, I think the testsuite is not there unfortunately.
[01:55:12] <zwisk> probably... It'd be interesting to see if it's just an initialization thing that could be fixed by duplicating that annoyingly large amount of code in parport_pc...
[01:55:27] <zwisk> hmm... what am I looking for?
[01:55:30] <cradek> you could run the rtai livecd test, but it runs in textmode so isn't a complete test.
[01:55:46] <cradek> /usr/realtime*/testsuite/kern/latency/
[01:56:11] <cradek> or possibly it's somewhere else
[01:56:13] <zwisk> yep, sure enough... not there.
[01:56:41] <cradek> that sucks, it's very important
[01:56:54] <zwisk> I have my own copy of it from my rtai playing, but it's not compiled against the currently running kernel.
[01:57:12] <cradek> ah, that would do fine then
[01:57:19] <zwisk> Is there an alternatice, happier rtai dpkg I should be using?
[01:57:51] <cradek> we've packaged rtai etc for two ubuntu versions (breezy and dapper) now, but I don't know if they're tested on anything but.
[01:58:06] <cradek> they are complete packages with testsuite
[01:58:43] <cradek> I'm sure your setup is perfectly fine except for no testsuite.
[01:58:51] <zwisk> There seems to be some politics around all of that, alas. :)
[01:59:03] <cradek> sadly
[01:59:06] <zwisk> In all honesty, I'd much prefer to be running on a redhat box... but... that's a whole different issues :)
[01:59:40] <cradek> several people have said that - if you have the expertise to package kernel/rtai/emc, please do! you won't get any static from any of us.
[01:59:52] <zwisk> Actually I have... numerous times ;)
[02:00:09] <cradek> packaged, or got static?
[02:00:12] <zwisk> I don't play with emc enough to really be able to support that, though...
[02:00:15] <zwisk> Packaged it.
[02:00:30] <cradek> yes, in reality it would take a lot of committment.
[02:00:32] <zwisk> Not so much static. It's a tough thing to properly test and track down what works and what doesn't though.
[02:01:11] <cradek> nobody has said the magic words yet "I want redhat rtai/emc packages and I'm willing to do the work" but I bet someone will one of these days.
[02:01:20] <zwisk> Although alex did recently remove my bug about having the emc2 make system build rpm's ;)
[02:02:00] <zwisk> Well, there are a few orphaned CVS branches where I did that work, pre 2.6 kernel, and they got swept by when the build system changed.
[02:02:04] <cradek> emc rpms are of little use without kernel/rtai rpms
[02:02:26] <zwisk> yes. Emc1 was really nasty. Emc2 is much nicer. But it doesn't matter without the kernel/rtai rpms.
[02:03:01] <cradek> now I suspect it's pretty easy to package using make install DESTDIR= etc.
[02:03:18] <zwisk> Bottom line, though, is that with few developers on non-debian-esq boxes, it's probably not a good idea to create the support problems of multiple distributions.
[02:03:21] <cradek> (although I'm no rpm expert)
[02:03:53] <zwisk> Yes, the destdir stuff was a bit of a debacle :) I put a bunch of it in, and Alex took a bunch of it out. :) (We're good though.)
[02:03:55] <cradek> right, not without an rpm maintainer.
[02:04:19] <cradek> I think it's sane now, the debs build that way
[02:04:29] <zwisk> the run in place stuff is a good thing.
[02:04:41] <cradek> I bet 90% of your previous work is still relevant, just would need to be revived
[02:04:58] <cradek> but this is a discussion for another day I bet, if someone steps up to do it
[02:05:04] <zwisk> Yeah... that's probably true. I may be the only one interested though. (I may be the only one with this parport problem too! :) )
[02:05:33] <zwisk> I did some hal-refactoring that I consider going back to on days like today too... Makes it so you don't have to unload and reload everything.
[02:05:47] <zwisk> That was pretty severe though. I should talk to jmk about that again.
[02:06:08] <cradek> yeah, I don't know anything about that
[02:06:27] <zwisk> Say, while on these interesting topics, will axis ever be merged into the emc tree? Seems like it'd be useful to have it in there, with all the other interfaces.
[02:07:00] <cradek> we talk about it every so often - "probably someday"
[02:07:16] <zwisk> That, and moving emc from cvs to svn would really make my day :)
[02:07:33] <cradek> certainly when/if we both decide to leave the project for other things, we would do that.
[02:08:14] <cradek> cvs appears to be working perfectly for our purposes, and we all know how to use it, so I don't see us changing anytime soon.
[02:08:57] <zwisk> Yeah... I am reminded of some of it's shortcomings every time I get 30 emails for a single checkin :)
[02:09:20] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[02:09:49] <cradek> those are uncommon (where someone touches lots of directories)
[02:09:56] <zwisk> It could be much worse.
[02:10:28] <zwisk> Yeah, it's true. svn is darn-near user compatible with cvs though, and it knows how to handle directories and changesets.
[02:13:01] <cradek> that's another "maybe someday" thing - there's a lot of talking/training/consensus we'd have to get through, and we'd have to think the benefits would be worth it.
[02:14:19] <cradek> and you saw the whining we had when we simply moved cvs to a more reliable server...
[02:14:41] <zwisk> yeah. Sure enough. It's just a dream :)
[02:14:42] <cradek> but, uh, let's not talk about that
[02:15:46] <cradek> did you try tape for your pcbs yet?
[02:16:14] <zwisk> nope, not yet. I've been running a sample file through to see if when I rezero, I actually make it back to zero :)
[02:16:29] <cradek> ah good idea
[02:16:44] <zwisk> It tended to drift postive on the X axis for some reason last night.
[02:17:17] <zwisk> I've since cranked the MAX_ACCEL's down a bit to see if that helps.
[02:17:21] <cradek> on the very old stepper bridgeport jon elson was working on at the cnc workshop, it had built-in indicators that you could periodically check to see if it had managed to keep its position so far...
[02:17:33] <cradek> seems like it was not a reliable thing even when new
[02:18:11] <cradek> have you ever seen it stall?
[02:19:15] <zwisk> This one came with an old summit 6502 controlled system. The processor board was nonoperational when I got it, so I replaced the brains with emc ...
[02:20:02] <cradek> if you don't have the latency tests, you could make a program that jogs back and forth in X full speed, then while it's running move/resize windows, start some firefoxes, etc
[02:20:02] <zwisk> I've never run it into anything hard to *really* stall it, but certainly I can accelerate faster than the physics allow and it'll stop moving and whine at me as the stepper pulses zip past the motors faster than they can move.
[02:20:47] <cradek> when mine was misconfigured, it would stall on a G0 if I maximized/unmaximized AXIS
[02:20:48] <zwisk> I noticed a torture.py script at one point that seemed like a fun experiment. :)
[02:21:05] <cradek> that's more about torturing the planner, not the machine
[02:21:22] <zwisk> oh. Clearly I've never run it. :)
[02:21:43] <cradek> there's tort.ngc in cvs I think, you can see what kinds of programs it generates
[02:22:25] <zwisk> I should probably get the latency test suite installed and run it.
[02:22:56] <cradek> certainly do that before you do any other troubleshooting for stalls or lost steps
[02:23:22] <zwisk> I'm reluctant to play with the kernel much though, since it's such a pain when it doesn't work well. Or something 'important' like networking stops working.
[02:23:45] <cradek> then do what I proposed instead, it will show any glaring problem
[02:24:33] <zwisk> Sounds like a good task for this evening.
[02:24:50] <zwisk> I am eager to watch that little HSS bit do something though :)
[02:25:22] <cradek> oh btw I was able to cut some boards from radio shack relatively successfully with HSS, they were not fiberglass
[02:25:46] <cradek> don't know what the material is
[02:25:58] <Jymmm> Whatchaya think? $199 Pro Source 2000 Watt 5.5 HP Gas Generator
[02:26:01] <cradek> when you snap the boards, they come apart in scales/flakes
[02:26:02] <zwisk> hmmm... nice. I have a few fiber glass, and some other that is ... phenolic perhaps?
[02:26:17] <cradek> maybe
[02:26:37] <cradek> fiberglass is nice but anything HSS will last about 20 seconds
[02:27:02] <cradek> I tried HSS drills and I could get maybe 10 holes before they stopped cutting and "squished" the board out of the way instead
[02:27:03] <zwisk> well, maybe a 1:20 for me, since I'm cutting at about 1/4 the speed you are :)
[02:27:20] <cradek> haha same number of traces though
[02:27:28] <zwisk> exactly :)
[02:27:48] <Jymmm> http://biglots.inserts2online.com/BigLots06272006MASTER/items/large/0628_04_873R2_W-09.jpg
[02:27:52] <zwisk> I dunno Jymm... never bought a gas generator. Seems like a nice thing to have, and like $200 isn't too terrible.. ?
[02:28:24] <zwisk> I wonder how noisy it is :)
[02:28:34] <cradek> some are amazingly quiet
[02:28:40] <Jymmm> zwisk: didnt think about that.
[02:29:09] <Jymmm> for 2kw, I'd hope it's smaller too
[02:29:27] <zwisk> A friend of mine had a honda that was pretty quiet. He had another brand before that that he hardly ever ran because he couldn't get it far enough away to be comfortable around it.
[02:29:54] <Jymmm> the hondas are NICE... but expensive
[02:30:07] <cradek> some are quieter than a quiet idling car
[02:30:30] <zwisk> Guess it depend on where you'll use it, and if the noise matters.
[02:31:05] <Jymmm> I wen tto the dealer and he started the 2kw one in th estore , and could still hold a conversation at the same level.
[02:31:29] <Jymmm> a vacuum is louder
[02:31:34] <cradek> ... and then everyone passed out
[02:31:51] <Jymmm> no, didn't smell any exhaust at all.
[02:32:22] <zwisk> The silent, odor-less killer :)
[02:32:36] <Jymmm> you can link two of these together to double the load capacity too.
[02:33:29] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/Honda-eu2000i-Generator-2000i-eu2000-NEW-2YR-WARRANTY_W0QQitemZ230001514719QQihZ013QQcategoryZ106437QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[02:34:56] <Jymmm> Ah, this is the one you can link two of them together...
http://cgi.ebay.com/HONDA-EU2000i-PORTABLE-GENERATOR-LIKE-NEW_W0QQitemZ260002952570QQihZ016QQcategoryZ46412QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[02:36:55] <Jymmm> If you've ever had to lug around a 4kw (100+ lb) generator alone, you'll understand why two of those linked is a gawdsend =)
[02:39:12] <cradek> welcome
[02:40:11] <Twingy> 'lo
[02:40:31] <cradek> I built brlcad and made it through part of the tutorial - it's great there's an open scriptable CSG - I didn't know about it.
[03:00:29] <dan_falck> * dan_falck is back (gone 03:39:57)
[03:12:34] <zwisk> hmm... brlcad is open?
[03:12:59] <zwisk> hmm... so it is...
[03:13:40] <Twingy> * Twingy did the photon mapping code for brlcad
[03:15:50] <cradek> what's photon mapping?
[03:16:10] <Twingy> a biased global illumination algorithm
[03:16:55] <Jymmm> poor poor orphany neutrons, not mapped and no way to get home =(
[03:17:00] <Jymmm> -y
[03:18:59] <Jymmm> cradek: CSG ?
[03:19:42] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_solid_geometry
[03:20:10] <Jymmm> to turn wireframe into solid (sorta thing) ?
[04:14:53] <zwisk> So.... if I had some very large RPM/SRPMs of the rtai kernel for fedora core... is there a place I could put them for people to try out?
[10:18:02] <roel01> hi
[12:44:39] <dan_falck> rayh: good morning
[12:45:22] <dan_falck> you must be back home
[12:52:07] <rayh> Hi Dan. Yep I'm home.
[12:52:35] <Dallur> hey jmkasunic, are you around ?
[12:54:15] <dan_falck> rayh: china huh?
[12:55:17] <rayh> I was surprised and impressed with many of the machines and factories that I saw.
[12:56:39] <rayh> I found at least 6 domestic producers of CNC systems.
[12:57:30] <rayh> And nearly every machine tool production facility in the country was showing off smaller turning and milling centers.
[12:57:54] <dan_falck> what was your mission there?
[12:58:22] <rayh> I'd have to guess that there were close to 100 different brands of cnc machines.
[12:59:10] <rayh> Smithy wanted me to understand CNC in China and find some components built there.
[12:59:34] <dan_falck> oh, I see
[13:00:54] <dan_falck> what kind of controls were the chinese companies using?
[13:01:24] <rayh> Most had demo Fanuc, Siemens, and other international controls.
[13:01:36] <rayh> In addition to the domestic brands.
[13:02:18] <rayh> Inside China, the domestic brands are the most popular. Price seemed to be the major choice.
[13:02:40] <dan_falck> what kind of controls are those? PC based?
[13:03:15] <rayh> I found a couple that were separate processors, linux on the motion and IO side and ms on the display side.
[13:03:31] <dan_falck> EMC ?
[13:03:52] <rayh> Most of the domestic brands looked to be dedicated proprietary os.
[13:04:22] <rayh> But there was no gracefull to see what was running behind the display.
[13:04:55] <rayh> some kind of real-time at least.
[13:05:39] <rayh> Most of the domestic systems operated a lot like older fanuc displays.
[13:05:42] <dan_falck> probably emc inspired at the very least
[13:06:15] <rayh> I would guess so. Wish that I had a beginner's command of the language.
[13:07:04] <rayh> I met with four companies after the show.
[13:07:38] <dan_falck> what did they have to offer?
[13:07:53] <rayh> Each had a group of engineers meet with me.
[13:08:34] <rayh> Sieg, the company that built the little grizz mills we converted, had the start of cnc mills and lathes.
[13:08:46] <rayh> Some interesting stuff.
[13:10:34] <rayh> The four factories knocked the idea that all China mills are built in one place.
[13:10:56] <rayh> Each had foundaries and curing facilities.
[13:11:59] <rayh> The products looked a lot alike. I'm not certain I understand why.
[13:12:32] <dan_falck> maybe no confidence in their own designs
[13:14:08] <rayh> I'm starting to think it is a "brute force" approach.
[13:14:24] <rayh> It works for them so I'll do it that way also.
[13:14:43] <rayh> The engineering guys were quite able
[13:15:09] <rayh> We went over several designs and they could easily see problems and solutions.
[13:15:29] <rayh> Once we got to the drawing stage, we had no language barrier.
[13:15:51] <rayh> Their cad/cam ability is as good as any I've seen.
[13:20:57] <rayh> How's the family, Dan?
[13:21:42] <dan_falck> doing good. Ben is camping in Southern Oregon. Olivia is going to Italy July 5th. Thomas is staying here.
[13:21:59] <dan_falck> Robin and I are building a deck
[13:22:44] <rayh> Great. We were hoping to get that far west this summer but it doesn't look like it now.
[13:23:43] <dan_falck> just let me know when you can. we look forward to seeing you and Maxine again sometime.
[13:24:04] <rayh> Max says hi.
[13:24:52] <dan_falck> hi Maxine
[13:28:11] <dan_falck> so Smithy is still using EMC?
[13:28:38] <rayh> Yes
[13:28:52] <dan_falck> which GUI are they using?
[13:29:20] <rayh> They are in process of writing a new QT4 system.
[13:29:31] <dan_falck> oh wow
[13:30:24] <rayh> The libraries should be available before to long.
[13:31:02] <rayh> There are a few questions about gpl/lgpl still to be clarified.
[13:31:35] <rayh> They discussed the plan with the developers that were at cnc-workshop/emcfest.
[13:35:56] <Mess> Hi all frm PEI
[13:36:12] <dan_falck> hi Mess
[13:37:03] <rayh> PEI?
[13:37:41] <Mess> yaeh... i got shipped to the island to make dash 8 nose gear parts...
[13:37:56] <Mess> Prince Edward Island
[13:39:14] <rayh> Ah. Thanks for that update.
[13:40:45] <Mess> how did you make out in Japan??
[13:41:34] <rayh> Japan was just a stopover on the way to China and on the way back from Manila.
[13:42:05] <rayh> This country boy was amazed at the density of people.
[13:53:48] <Mess> i hear ya...the density is lower than home here too
[13:55:05] <rayh> Looks like a nice place to visit.
[14:23:08] <Dallur> Anyone here have experience with vcp ?
[14:23:37] <SWPadnos> only looking at it, but I may be able to help after sufficient time looking at the source code ;)
[14:23:44] <Dallur> :D 'LED' not permitted as child of 'box'
[14:24:20] <SWPadnos> err - you'll have to wait for alex, anders, or jmk then ;)
[14:24:22] <fenn> is there anything else in the box? i think they can only hold one child at a time
[14:24:27] <Dallur> I'm just starting out and I find it a bit strange that LED is not allowed as a child of box
[14:24:41] <SWPadnos> no - they can have multiple children, I think that's the reason behind the boxes
[14:24:44] <Dallur> I was basing my config on ->
[14:24:46] <Dallur> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?M5i20_Halvcp_Test_Panel
[14:25:20] <SWPadnos> can you put your config on pastebin?
[14:25:25] <Dallur> yup, just a sec
[14:27:07] <Dallur> hmm pastebin working as slowly as ever before :(
[14:27:22] <fenn> try rafb.net/paste
[14:27:35] <SWPadnos> also pastebin.ca
[14:27:53] <Dallur> yup
[14:28:20] <Dallur> http://pastebin.ca/77047
[14:30:54] <SWPadnos> does it tell you which one causes the error?
[14:31:12] <Dallur> line 15
[14:31:25] <Dallur> the first "LED"
[14:31:32] <SWPadnos> ah
[14:31:57] <Dallur> incomplete implementation ?
[14:32:51] <SWPadnos> I can't tell at this point
[14:35:22] <Dallur> even default demo config is broken and dumps line 22: 'LED' not permitted as child of 'box'
[14:35:42] <SWPadnos> ah, in that case, I'd say that something changed in halvcp ;)
[14:36:36] <Dallur> I think so :D I will mention it to John Kasunich, I think he is the one who wrote VCP
[14:37:24] <SWPadnos> yep
[14:38:41] <SWPadnos> I don't see any recent changes to hal_vcp - the latest I have is 5/19/06
[14:43:55] <jmkasunich> "LED" is only implemented in the CVS head, I think
[14:44:04] <jmkasunich> its definitely _not_ in emc-2.0.0
[14:44:44] <Dallur> :D I am using head
[14:44:59] <jmkasunich> hmm, so much for that theory...
[14:45:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:45:21] <jmkasunich> let me see if I get the same error
[14:45:24] <Dallur> ok
[14:48:31] <jmkasunich> can you run the "halui_halvcp" sample config?
[14:48:52] <jmkasunich> it has LEDs, and seems to work fine here
[14:50:16] <Dallur> hmm does not work here
[14:50:27] <Dallur> let me get latest and rebuild
[14:54:17] <Dallur> I got latest this morning and rebuilt everything, so it should not be problem but just to make sure ....
[14:55:52] <Dallur> Here is the console from CVS HEAD on my machine ->
http://pastebin.ca/77050
[14:56:34] <jmkasunich> looking
[14:57:00] <jmkasunich> something is definitely screwy - thats not the latest code
[14:57:35] <jmkasunich> the long list of progress messages (get_child, matched, legal, allocated, etc) are debug info that I removed some time ago
[14:58:03] <jmkasunich> I wonder if your checkout has a sticky tag associated with it so you are getting an older snapshot
[14:58:04] <Dallur> hmm
[14:58:13] <Dallur> cvs -z5 update -Pd
[14:58:15] <Dallur> is what I use
[15:00:13] <jmkasunich> the command to clear any tags is "cvs update -A"
[15:00:19] <jmkasunich> give that a try, see if anything changes
[15:00:24] <Dallur> ok
[15:04:36] <Dallur> hmm still having same problem, have you guys changed cvs servers in the last week or ... ?
[15:07:18] <jmkasunich> nope, I just did an update myself
[15:07:22] <jmkasunich> cvs.linuxcnc.org
[15:07:29] <Dallur> when I check with cvs status everything under hal/user_comps/vcp is reported as "up to date"
[15:07:33] <Dallur> yup :P
[15:08:56] <Dallur> doing a fresh checkout to compare
[15:09:37] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~/emcdev/emc2head$ cat src/hal/user_comps/vcp/CVS/Entries
[15:09:41] <jmkasunich> D
[15:09:43] <jmkasunich> oops
[15:10:11] <jmkasunich> try that cat command (from the top dir of your checkout)
[15:10:13] <jmkasunich> do you get:
[15:11:02] <jmkasunich> /tokenizer.c/1.1/Sun Jan 15 23:00:18 2006//
[15:11:02] <jmkasunich> /vcp_widgets.c/1.3/Fri May 19 04:45:02 2006//
[15:11:26] <jmkasunich> bah, paste isn't working right (I think the leading / fscks it up
[15:11:38] <Dallur> anyways but my last entrie is
[15:12:01] <Dallur> .. /Submakefile/1.3/Thu Jun 8 01:21:56 2006//
[15:12:15] <Dallur> I also have the main and widgets on May 19
[15:12:36] <jmkasunich> main and widgets are version 1.2 and 1.3 respectively?
[15:12:44] <Dallur> yup
[15:12:58] <jmkasunich> strange, sure looks like you are running the same code as I am
[15:14:12] <Dallur> hmm I wonder if there might be some sort of lib mixup because I have emc installed via apt (2.0 for production) but I also have checkout and run-in-place for 2.1 dev
[15:14:51] <jmkasunich> are you sure you are _running_ the rip version?
[15:14:55] <Dallur> yup
[15:15:02] <jmkasunich> run from the checkout dir, using "scripts/emc"
[15:15:05] <Dallur> yup
[15:15:16] <Dallur> and I have doublechecked the version is HEAD 2.1
[15:15:27] <Dallur> in the console
[15:16:12] <Dallur> I am compiling the fresh checkout now to see how that works
[15:18:25] <Dallur> same thing ,, :(
[15:18:51] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/vcp/vcp_widgets.c: double-buffer LED widgets and don't draw them unless the pin changes -- may need to be tweaked for older gtk
[15:20:17] <jmkasunich> Dallur: while waiting for the compile, go back to the old directory, and do a "cvs up -dP"
[15:20:26] <jmkasunich> see if you get jepler's change from just now
[15:20:34] <Dallur> jmkasunich: I compiled fresh , ran it and same problem
[15:20:38] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot7_log.txt
[15:20:38] <Dallur> will do
[15:21:10] <jmkasunich> there should be a line like "P src/hal/user_comps/vcp/vcp_widgets.c
[15:21:10] <jmkasunich> " scroll past (along with a bunch of other stuff)
[15:21:17] <Dallur> jmkasunich: got it
[15:21:36] <Dallur> P src/hal/user_comps/vcp/vcp_widgets.c
[15:21:46] <jmkasunich> ok, so you definitely have the latest code
[15:21:55] <jmkasunich> I wonder wth is going on?
[15:22:16] <fenn> make clean
[15:22:25] <Dallur> The only thing I can think of is that some libraries are not loaded from relative path but rather from 2.0 install ,, although i don't know how or why that would happen
[15:22:56] <Dallur> fenn: always do
[15:23:56] <jmkasunich> do you have gtk (and gtk-dev) installed? try "cat src/config.log | grep GTK_VER"
[15:24:48] <jepler> jmkasunich: I bet that's it
[15:24:57] <Dallur> jmkasunich: GTK_VER=''
[15:25:02] <jepler> if I 'rm bin/halvcp', it seem so to run the one from /usr/bin/
[15:25:08] <jepler> it prints errors like the one in the pastebin log
[15:25:42] <Dallur> sounds like we might have a winner
[15:26:00] <jmkasunich> Dallur: you don't have the GTK development packages installed, so nothing that uses GTK is getting compiled (halvcp, halscope, halmeter, and maybe some others)
[15:26:03] <jepler> "sudo apt-get install libgtk2.0-dev"
[15:26:11] <jepler> then configure and make
[15:26:40] <Dallur> yup, im on it thanks for your patience
[15:27:01] <jmkasunich> I wonder if we should change GTK from an optional dependency to a required one, and add it to build-deps?
[15:27:02] <Dallur> although I would have thought there would be errors ..
[15:27:04] <jepler> you might want to install all these packages:
[15:27:05] <jepler> Build-Depends: debhelper (>> 4.0.0),linux-headers-2.6.12-magma,g++,gcc-3.4,make,libc6-dev,tcl8.4-dev,tk8.4-dev,libgtk2.0-dev,pciutils-dev,libncurses-dev,gettext,libxaw7-dev,rtai-modules-2.6.12-magma,libreadline5-dev
[15:27:42] <jepler> jmkasunich: it is in build-depends (though it may be libgtk1.2 listed in 2.0.1)
[15:27:42] <jmkasunich> Dallur: up till recently, GTK was only used for "optional" stuff, tools like halmeter and halscope
[15:27:50] <jepler> halvcp is "optional" too
[15:28:01] <Dallur> jmkasunich: yup, I see the point
[15:28:04] <jmkasunich> so we made it an option. if configure can't find it, we just don't compile those tools
[15:28:10] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot3_log.txt
[15:28:49] <jmkasunich> /home/John/farm/emc2head/src/hal/user_comps/vcp/vcp_widgets.c:557: undefined reference to `gtk_widget_set_double_buffered'
[15:29:08] <jmkasunich> I wonder if "double_buffered" is a gtk 2+ thing?
[15:29:39] <jmkasunich> back to the current discussion: halvcp isn't "optional" if we ship a sample config that uses it
[15:29:43] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot5_log.txt
[15:29:53] <jmkasunich> scope and meter are debugging tools, not actual parts of a working emc
[15:30:07] <jmkasunich> but halvcp can be used as a functional part of a machine
[15:30:38] <fenn> the sim sample config uses halscope too, by that logic
[15:30:54] <jmkasunich> oh...
[15:30:56] <jmkasunich> arg
[15:31:11] <SWPadnos> and step-cl uses classicladder ...
[15:31:26] <jmkasunich> oh, thats right, CL uses GTK
[15:31:33] <Dallur> How about adding a flag to configure, making it possible to remove the deps but keeping the deps in by default ?
[15:31:37] <jmkasunich> that alone is enough (IMHO) to make GTK a dependency
[15:31:47] <jmkasunich> Dallur: I don't understand
[15:32:04] <jmkasunich> configure's job is to figure out what you have on your machine, and compile accordingly
[15:32:14] <jmkasunich> if you don't have GTK, it doesn't compile GTK stuff
[15:32:24] <SWPadnos> package deps are different from configure deps
[15:32:26] <Dallur> jmkasunich: enabling users to compile without gtk support by having a flag for configure, similar to what you do with run-in-place
[15:32:36] <jmkasunich> we could change it so if you don't have GTK, it barfs and you have to go get GTK
[15:32:55] <jmkasunich> oh, I think I understand
[15:33:15] <Dallur> jmkasuncich: yup, so if you really do want to compile without gtk you can specify --no-gtk or similar
[15:33:40] <jmkasunich> if you don't have GTK, it will barf, with a message like "go get GTK, _or_, if you don't need the following: halmeter, halscope, classicladder, etc, then redo configure with --use-no-gtk"
[15:34:06] <fenn> SMOP
[15:34:11] <Dallur> I seem to remember compiling several apps which have these kinds of options
[15:34:41] <jmkasunich> that would be doable
[15:35:05] <jmkasunich> but as more and more parts of EMC need GTK, I wonder where we draw the line and just say "gotta have it"
[15:36:21] <jmkasunich> jepler: does axis work without tcl/tk? I don't know if its python, tcl/tk, or some hybrid of the two?
[15:37:07] <fenn> it uses pytk which is a python interface to tcl/tk
[15:37:37] <jmkasunich> so even if you don't use tkemc or mini, you need tcl/tk
[15:37:37] <jepler> it uses tcl/tk
[15:37:39] <jepler> yes
[15:38:06] <jmkasunich> (I was wondering if tcl/tk was similar to GTK, in that its possible (but limiting) to run emc without it
[15:38:28] <fenn> you could use keystick :)
[15:38:40] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich flips off fenn
[15:38:50] <fenn> hey it might actually be useful for embedded stuff
[15:38:57] <fenn> less unnecessary baggage
[15:39:03] <jmkasunich> maybe
[15:39:27] <cradek> in theory you can use xemc or keystick without any tcl (I used to do that in emc1)
[15:39:55] <fenn> what does xemc use to draw widgets?
[15:39:56] <cradek> you could still do it if you avoid pickconfig by specifying your config on the commandline
[15:40:06] <cradek> it uses X (athena)
[15:40:39] <fenn> oh thats what xaw stands for :)
[15:41:03] <cradek> yep
[15:41:03] <jmkasunich> so, it sounds like a "--no-GTK" config param is desireable, and maybe even an "--no-tcl" one
[15:41:30] <cradek> --without-
[15:41:53] <jmkasunich> the implications are not fun - it needs to be tested with each of those permutations
[15:41:58] <cradek> I think that's the standard idiom anyway
[15:42:06] <jmkasunich> I think you're right
[15:42:07] <cradek> --without-tcl could bypass pickconfig
[15:42:32] <jmkasunich> right, could and should - thats one of the things that needs tested, otherwise it will bitrot
[15:42:57] <Dallur2> got disconnected :P
[15:43:01] <cradek> I don't think this is worth spending time on.
[15:43:11] <cradek> well not my time, someone else might like to do it
[15:43:17] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/ (miscgtk.c miscgtk.h): stub out gtk_widget_set_doublebuffered for pre-2.0 gtk
[15:43:37] <jmkasunich> then we should make GTK a requirement and have configure quit if its not there
[15:43:46] <jmkasunich> so we don't get the problem Dallur just had
[15:44:07] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/vcp/ (vcp_widgets.c Submakefile): use miscgtk to get gtk_wiget_set_double_buffered stub with gtk1.2
[15:46:02] <jepler> jmkasunich: do all the farm slots have a gtk?
[15:47:27] <jmkasunich> I think so, checking
[15:47:51] <SWPadnos> not that you'd notice, since they only compile, and don't run the result
[15:48:13] <jmkasunich> actually, looks like the 2.18 doesn't
[15:48:25] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[15:48:35] <jmkasunich> TNG has 1.2
[15:48:44] <jmkasunich> rc-46 has 2.0
[15:48:45] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot3_log.txt
[15:48:54] <jmkasunich> 4.20 has 1.2
[15:49:11] <jmkasunich> ubuntu (this box) has 1.2
[15:50:18] <jmkasunich> the fail on TNG just now might be because it started right after the first commit but before the second
[15:50:25] <jmkasunich> give it some time to try again
[15:52:06] <Rugludallur> Does anyone know why I keep getting the following errors, not that they affect the functionality of my system but they clutter things up ->
http://pastebin.ca/77074
[15:53:11] <jmkasunich> I don't know... NML is not my strong area
[15:53:40] <jmkasunich> that happens only on your config? or also on the samples?
[15:53:59] <Rugludallur> only my config, started getting it every once in a while after I started using halui
[15:54:20] <Rugludallur> how it happens about 70% of the time when I start my config
[15:54:28] <jmkasunich> try comparing the .nml file in your config with the .nml file in a sample config
[15:54:37] <Rugludallur> err s/how/now/
[15:56:30] <jmkasunich> there were some changes to emc.nml about 2 weeks ago, to match changes in the main emc script (order in which things were loaded, etc)
[15:56:47] <jmkasunich> if you copied your config dir before that, you probably have an old emc.nml
[15:56:48] <Rugludallur> jmkasunich: testing now :D
[15:58:08] <Rugludallur> jmkasunich: that's it , thanks
[15:58:19] <jmkasunich> you're welcome
[16:03:10] <Rugludallur> Rugludallur is now known as Dallur
[16:04:22] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[16:07:04] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[16:27:10] <jmkasunich> back in a bit (gotta mow the grass)
[16:29:53] <jmkasunich> well damn... its raining
[16:30:19] <SWPadnos> oh darn ;)
[16:30:28] <jmkasunich> its getting pretty tall
[16:30:50] <jmkasunich> last 3 weeks, the only times I've had time to mow its either been raining, or soggy from rain
[16:31:36] <SWPadnos> same here
[16:32:03] <SWPadnos> additionally, we decided to bring it in for a tune-up, which took 10-14 days to get done
[16:32:09] <SWPadnos> (first come, first served)
[16:32:23] <jmkasunich> bring what in for a tune up? the mower?
[16:32:37] <SWPadnos> yep
[16:33:11] <SWPadnos> sharpen balde, replace spark plug, check the transmission and all the cables and stuff
[16:33:16] <SWPadnos> blade
[16:33:20] <jmkasunich> rider?
[16:33:26] <SWPadnos> nope
[16:33:36] <SWPadnos> John Deere JS-63C
[16:33:53] <jmkasunich> my image of "mower" = "motor on top of deck, blade under", no transmission,e tc
[16:34:10] <SWPadnos> this is a 3-speed walk-behind mower
[16:34:13] <SWPadnos> self-propelled
[16:34:42] <jmkasunich> ah
[16:35:09] <jmkasunich> I really should change the oil in the mower one of these days
[16:35:16] <SWPadnos> heh - that, too
[16:35:19] <jmkasunich> I think I sharpened the blade last year
[16:35:29] <SWPadnos> I did it once, and overfilled it - had oil coming out the air filter
[16:35:31] <SWPadnos> oops
[16:35:41] <jmkasunich> lol
[16:35:54] <SWPadnos> we mow aabout 1/2 acre with it, so the blade needs sharpening at least once a year
[16:36:26] <jmkasunich> oil out the filter reminds me of the end of our previous mower... oil all over the place
[16:37:01] <jmkasunich> connecting rod cap broke, piston stopped at TDC, then the crank came around and hit the big end of the rod, drove it right out thru the side of the crankcase
[16:37:30] <jmkasunich> "uh, I think the lawnmower is broken"
[16:37:34] <jmkasunich> "can we fix it"
[16:37:40] <jmkasunich> "uh, I don't think so"
[16:38:09] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:38:54] <jmkasunich> it didn't owe us anything - originally belonged to my wife's parents and was over 20 years old
[16:39:08] <SWPadnos> then it did well
[16:40:46] <Dallur> jmkasunich: Regarding the discussion the other day about adding float support to VCP, I thought about it some more and I think 99% functionality can be gotten by adding an option to display float, this way it is possible to add binary +/- buttons and have adjustable floats
[16:41:32] <jmkasunich> I'd still like true float widgets tho
[16:41:37] <jmkasunich> knob or slider for example
[16:41:55] <Dallur> jmkasunich: :D I think those would be great, but I imagine they are alot of work
[16:41:57] <jmkasunich> knobs are a very user friendly interface
[16:42:09] <jmkasunich> not really, sliders already exist in GTK
[16:42:20] <jmkasunich> (round knobs would be harder)
[16:43:31] <Dallur> of course the side effect from having halui + halvcp with float support is that everyone and their uncle will create a custom UI for emc2 :D
[16:43:59] <SWPadnos> it still won't be able to load an NC file ... :)
[16:44:17] <jmkasunich> halvcp is a long way from being able to do a complete UI
[16:44:36] <jmkasunich> swp beat me to it, but halvcp will never have a "open file" widget ;-)
[16:44:48] <jmkasunich> and there are a lot of other things it can't do as well
[16:44:55] <SWPadnos> http://qwt.sourceforge.net/
[16:45:00] <jmkasunich> it will complement, not replace, the existing GUIs
[16:45:04] <SWPadnos> looks interesting, if anyone wants a QT version
[16:46:08] <jmkasunich> neat ideas there
[16:46:11] <SWPadnos> yep
[16:46:16] <jmkasunich> I like the sliders with scales next to them
[16:46:18] <SWPadnos> knobs, wheels, plots, etc
[16:47:23] <jmkasunich> eh, good catch on the RT kernel in the live CD
[16:47:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:47:41] <SWPadnos> theword "sim" is overloaded here ;)
[16:47:50] <jmkasunich> it didn't register with me that he was talking about the EMC live CD, I thought it was an ubuntu live CD
[16:48:32] <SWPadnos> right - I thought that was the case
[16:48:43] <SWPadnos> didn't have any argument with the rest of your comments though
[16:51:06] <jmkasunich> I hope he will actually help with sim_rtapi
[16:51:13] <SWPadnos> that would be excellent
[16:51:32] <jmkasunich> I thought I recognized the name, I have a book that he contributed to
[16:51:54] <SWPadnos> that's great
[17:39:22] <Dallur> hmm anyone else noticed the bug with scaling the classicladder window ? After getting GTK and recompiling the classicladder window now scales the header along with the rest of the window
[17:41:10] <jmkasunich> you're saying this is a change between the CL that is part of your installed packages and the CL that is part of HEAD?
[17:41:58] <Dallur> jmkasunich: yes, it used to be so that I could scale the classicladder window and the header would stay the same size (which is the desired result) but now the header scales and this causes issues since you can never get rid of the sliders
[17:42:19] <jmkasunich> what exactly do you mean by header?
[17:42:48] <Dallur> the grey area above the white gride which containts the name of the rung, chain and timer
[17:42:57] <Dallur> s/gride/grid/g
[17:43:45] <jmkasunich> running head here, and those boxes stay the same size
[17:44:06] <Dallur> but does the grey area behind them stay the same size to ?
[17:44:14] <jmkasunich> I wonder if that is a GTK 2.0 vs GTK 1.2 thing
[17:44:26] <jmkasunich> oh, I think I see what you mean
[17:44:32] <jmkasunich> the gray area gets taller
[17:44:38] <jmkasunich> (when I make the window taller)
[17:44:51] <jmkasunich> you're right, that is a horrible waste of screen space
[17:45:16] <Dallur> jmkasunich: not to mention it causes the effect that you cannot resize the window to get rid of the slider on the right
[17:45:34] <jmkasunich> I'm rather accustomed to the CL GUI being a mess, so I didn't realize that bug was new
[17:45:43] <jmkasunich> you said it doesn't happen with the released version
[17:45:50] <Dallur> jmkasunich: correct
[17:45:54] <jmkasunich> emc
[17:45:59] <jmkasunich> oops
[17:46:27] <jmkasunich> confirmed, it works right in 2.0.1
[17:46:45] <Dallur> ok, I will report :D
[17:52:57] <fenn> ermm i think i broke it
[17:53:22] <fenn> dont remember if i committed it or not.. i added an event box to the top of the main window to see if i could get tooltips to work
[17:53:47] <fenn> there's an empty gray area right?
[17:55:22] <jmkasunich> yes
[17:55:51] <jmkasunich> do you remember which file?
[17:55:53] <alex_joni> helloall
[17:56:07] <jmkasunich> hi alex
[17:57:49] <fenn> hmm
[17:57:54] <fenn> cvs [commit aborted]: could not open lock file `/cvs/emc2/src/hal/classicladder/,classicladder_gtk.c,': Permission denied
[17:58:14] <jmkasunich> strange
[17:59:28] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: how is everything?
[17:59:36] <jmkasunich> busy
[17:59:37] <jmkasunich> and rainy
[17:59:39] <alex_joni> same here
[18:00:00] <alex_joni> especially the busy part :D
[18:00:45] <alex_joni> going away on a business trip tomorrow
[18:00:55] <cradek> fenn: I bet that's an anon checkout
[18:01:55] <CIA-8> 03fenn 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/classicladder/classicladder_gtk.c: clean up my toys when not playing with them
[18:02:09] <alex_joni> cradek: hello
[18:02:13] <cradek> hi
[18:02:14] <jmkasunich> fenn: did you fix the actual problem, or just revert all your changes?
[18:02:18] <alex_joni> I saw zwisk is back (read a bit bac)
[18:02:28] <alex_joni> back even
[18:02:30] <fenn> jmkasunich: just commented out the event box
[18:02:43] <jmkasunich> and that fixed it?
[18:03:11] <fenn> uh..
[18:03:21] <fenn> i really need to fix my compiler issues right now
[18:03:36] <jmkasunich> damn straight... ;-)
[18:03:37] <fenn> i cant run emc to test anything because i upgraded gcc
[18:05:25] <jmkasunich> looks like you changed more than just commenting out the event box
[18:05:35] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot7_log.txt
[18:05:41] <fenn> * fenn grumbles
[18:06:07] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich grumbles "if it doesn't compile on your own box don't commit it"
[18:06:15] <alex_joni> fenn: what compiler?
[18:06:31] <alex_joni> emc2 & rt stuff run on 4.0 on breezy iirc
[18:06:54] <SWPadnos> no fedora core any more>
[18:06:56] <SWPadnos> ?
[18:07:06] <fenn> the kernel modules dont work since the kernel is compiled with gcc 3.4.3 and i now have gcc 4.0.3
[18:07:14] <fenn> figuring out how to install both right now
[18:07:51] <SWPadnos> you should be able to do something like CC=ggc-3.4.3 in the makefile. 3.4.3 should still be installed (maybe?)
[18:07:52] <jmkasunich> the configure script is supposed to determine what compiler was used to make the kernel (by calling rtai-config)
[18:07:59] <jmkasunich> and then use the same compiler for the build
[18:08:05] <alex_joni> right
[18:08:14] <jmkasunich> of course, if that compiler isn't there, you got a problem
[18:08:23] <SWPadnos> does it do that correctly when the old compiler was just called gcc, and now the new one is?
[18:08:27] <jmkasunich> but configure should bitch about that, rather than letting you go on
[18:08:44] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: i think it checks the gcc -version or similar
[18:08:47] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:08:58] <jmkasunich> checking on that
[18:09:00] <alex_joni> but this was ages ago I touched that area :)
[18:09:16] <SWPadnos> I've never touched it.
[18:09:26] <SWPadnos> in fact, I may wash my hands just because we're discussing it ;)
[18:09:44] <alex_joni> lol
[18:09:56] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot5_log.txt
[18:10:17] <jmkasunich> fut the shuck up compile farm, we know already!
[18:10:56] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~/emcdev/emc2head$ /usr/realtime-2.6.12-magma/bin/rtai-config --cc
[18:11:09] <jmkasunich> gcc-3.4
[18:11:10] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot3_log.txt
[18:13:08] <jmkasunich> typical output from configure when it tests for gcc version:
[18:13:08] <SWPadnos> is there an executable named gcc-3.4 in your path?
[18:13:09] <jmkasunich> checking for RT dir... Using /usr/bin/rtai-config as the RT signature
[18:13:09] <jmkasunich> checking for cc version... found gcc-2.95 in rtai-config
[18:13:29] <SWPadnos> or is it called 3.4.3 or whatever?
[18:13:58] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~/emcdev/emc2head$ type gcc-3.4
[18:13:58] <jmkasunich> gcc-3.4 is hashed (/usr/bin/gcc-3.4)
[18:14:04] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:14:21] <jmkasunich> (that 2.95 snippet came from a compile farm log)
[18:14:24] <alex_joni> usually gcc is a symlink to the actual one
[18:14:26] <SWPadnos> rigth
[18:14:28] <SWPadnos> right
[18:14:35] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-Live rc46 (2.4.25-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see
http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot4_log.txt
[18:14:47] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~/emcdev/emc2head$ type gcc
[18:14:47] <jmkasunich> gcc is /usr/bin/gcc
[18:15:02] <SWPadnos> I should write the right right (rite also isn't right)
[18:15:11] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~/emcdev/emc2head$ ls -l /usr/bin/gcc*
[18:15:11] <jmkasunich> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 2006-02-05 01:17 /usr/bin/gcc -> gcc-4.0
[18:15:11] <jmkasunich> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 84720 2006-03-06 14:57 /usr/bin/gcc-3.4
[18:15:11] <jmkasunich> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 89208 2005-10-01 10:16 /usr/bin/gcc-4.0
[18:15:11] <jmkasunich> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2006-02-05 01:17 /usr/bin/gccbug -> gccbug-4.0
[18:15:12] <jmkasunich> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 16134 2006-03-06 14:51 /usr/bin/gccbug-3.4
[18:15:14] <jmkasunich> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 16339 2005-10-01 10:06 /usr/bin/gccbug-4.0
[18:15:35] <SWPadnos> ok, so they only do major-minor, not the "sub-rev"
[18:15:40] <jmkasunich> I guess I didn't need to paste the last few lines...
[18:16:01] <SWPadnos> gcc <tab> <tab>
[18:16:30] <jmkasunich> doesn't show you which one is a symlink ;-)
[18:16:48] <SWPadnos> no, but it gives you all the names, regardless of where they are :)
[18:17:39] <alex_joni> if they are in PATH
[18:17:59] <SWPadnos> of course
[18:18:01] <SWPadnos> e
[18:18:13] <fenn> so how does configure know where to find gcc? it just knows to add version numbers?
[18:18:25] <alex_joni> fenn: it gets the name from the RT script
[18:18:28] <fenn> and what about all the other crap that comes with gcc?
[18:18:32] <alex_joni> and uses that name when invoking it
[18:18:35] <alex_joni> what crap?
[18:18:37] <jmkasunich> it asks rtai-config what compiler was used to compile the kernel
[18:18:49] <alex_joni> and also what flags it should use
[18:18:54] <fenn> c89 c99 gcov protoize etc
[18:19:16] <jmkasunich> fenn: do "type gcc" on your box, and paste the results here
[18:19:18] <alex_joni> it doesn't care about that
[18:19:28] <fenn> gcc is hashed (/usr/bin/gcc)
[18:19:45] <jmkasunich> now do "ls -l /usr/bin/gcc*"
[18:20:02] <fenn> -rwxr-xr-x 2 root root 107004 Nov 25 2005 /usr/bin/gcc
[18:20:10] <jmkasunich> thats it?
[18:20:18] <fenn> that's gcc 4.0.2
[18:20:19] <jmkasunich> no gcc-4.0? no symlink?
[18:20:28] <SWPadnos> forgot the * at the end, I'd bet
[18:20:29] <alex_joni> how do the swedes say it? borkedborkedborked
[18:20:43] <fenn> i've unpacked the old rpm into /tmp with rpm2cpio
[18:20:45] <jmkasunich> ***
[18:21:04] <jmkasunich> rpm? whats that? ;-)
[18:21:08] <fenn> bah
[18:21:20] <SWPadnos> and uname -a says ... ?
[18:21:39] <jmkasunich> so with the RPM system, you can't (conveniently) have multiple versions of gcc, with gcc a symlink to one of them
[18:21:41] <alex_joni> 2.0.123
[18:21:44] <fenn> cat /proc/version says Linux version 2.6.10 (root@snacker) (gcc version 3.4.3 20050227 (Red Hat 3.4.3-22.fc3)) #2 Mon Jun 6 12:45:44 EST 2005
[18:22:20] <fenn> i suppose the easy way would be to just do all the emc devel on the shop box
[18:27:13] <fenn> shouldnt emc give an error if it cant find the right version of gcc?
[18:27:29] <jmkasunich> configure should
[18:27:50] <robin_sz> or at least too earlier version
[18:28:05] <jmkasunich> needs to be the _right_ version
[18:28:10] <robin_sz> greetings jmkasunich
[18:28:14] <robin_sz> really?
[18:28:16] <robin_sz> coo.
[18:28:16] <jmkasunich> kernel modules need to be compiled with the same version as the kernel
[18:28:19] <jmkasunich> hi robin
[18:28:25] <fenn> checking for gcc... gcc
[18:28:51] <jmkasunich> fenn: find rtai-config on your box, and run it
[18:29:09] <jmkasunich> on mine its at /usr/realtime-2.6.12-magma/bin/rtai-config
[18:29:26] <jmkasunich> run it with --cc and it will tell you the compiler used to compile the kernel
[18:29:36] <fenn> lol
[18:29:43] <fenn> /usr/realtime/bin/rtai-config --cc
[18:29:43] <fenn> gcc
[18:29:49] <jmkasunich> on my box, that is gcc-3.4
[18:29:52] <robin_sz> awesome
[18:30:04] <fenn> so how do i get that to say gcc-3.4?
[18:30:09] <jmkasunich> you don't
[18:30:12] <alex_joni> fenn: you install gcc-3.4
[18:30:17] <alex_joni> and rebuild the rtai stuff
[18:30:20] <alex_joni> the proper way
[18:30:21] <jmkasunich> that was stored when you built the kernel/rtai
[18:30:24] <fenn> gcc-3.4 is in /usr/local/bin now
[18:30:28] <alex_joni> by using gcc-3.4 as the compiler
[18:30:37] <alex_joni> fenn: mv gcc gcc-4.0
[18:30:47] <alex_joni> ln -s gcc gcc-3.4
[18:30:55] <jmkasunich> you built the kernel with "gcc" instead of a specific version, then you went and changed what "gcc" was
[18:30:56] <fenn> there has to be a better way than shuffling gcc around every time i want to compile something
[18:31:15] <jmkasunich> yeah, alex started to explain it to you
[18:31:29] <alex_joni> fenn: you see why it's a pain to build proper rtai & kernel packages
[18:31:36] <robin_sz> symlinks are you friend
[18:31:46] <alex_joni> you need to take care of all these problems
[18:31:54] <fenn> how do symlinks help if i still have to change the symlink?
[18:31:56] <jmkasunich> and why we get testy when people who build their own RT kernels start asking questions
[18:32:04] <fenn> mwahahaha
[18:32:20] <robin_sz> won't dpkg --build-package emc just "do the right thing"?
[18:32:23] <alex_joni> fenn: you can override Makefile.inc on your emc2
[18:32:45] <alex_joni> robin_sz: IF you have a proper kernel installed, and a debian based system .. sure
[18:32:53] <alex_joni> robin_sz: but fenn is on FC3 or similar
[18:32:54] <jmkasunich> fenn:
[18:32:59] <alex_joni> so there is no dpkg :D
[18:33:06] <jmkasunich> on my box, rtai-config is just a shell script
[18:33:10] <robin_sz> euwww.
[18:33:18] <robin_sz> some people must just enjoy pain ;)
[18:33:31] <fenn> jmkasunich: oh how nice
[18:33:34] <jmkasunich> inside there is a line that says 'RTAI_CC="gcc-3.4" '
[18:33:36] <alex_joni> robin_sz: some like LFS (linux from scratch)..
[18:33:50] <jmkasunich> bet on yours it says RTAI_CC="gcc" ;-)
[18:33:56] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: yes, that is true.. however I am weary about touching that
[18:34:00] <robin_sz> alex_joni, some people like shutting their fingers in the desk drawer ...
[18:34:16] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I've noticed quite a few times rtai has these things in more than one place.. :(
[18:34:43] <jmkasunich> the only place that matters for fenn's problem is the place that _our_ configure script checks
[18:34:56] <alex_joni> right, that might be enough then
[18:35:05] <jmkasunich> fenn: backup that file, edit that line, save\
[18:35:10] <jmkasunich> then run configure
[18:35:14] <robin_sz> oouh, looky. nice steppers on ebay :)
[18:35:19] <fenn> i'm compiling already
[18:35:20] <robin_sz> 19Nm ...
[18:35:49] <jmkasunich> did configure say "found gcc-3.4 in rtai-config" ?
[18:36:23] <fenn> yes
[18:36:27] <jmkasunich> yay
[18:38:59] <Rugludallur> robin_sz: the guy states that they must be broken because he can't move the shaft with his hands,,,, I don't think anyone can move those shafts with bare hands
[18:39:55] <jmkasunich> sounds like a bargain waiting to happen, most bidders will be scared off by the "must be broken"
[18:40:44] <Rugludallur> jmkasunich: Those are PacSci with encoders , would be great for a router/mill
[18:41:00] <fenn> heh do they have a mechanical brake built in?
[18:41:07] <fenn> it would explain the seized up shaft :)
[18:51:09] <Bo^Dick> regarding voltage regulators in particular the LM317, must the voltage difference between the input and the output be larger than a particular value in order to supress ripple on the input for a given current flow?
[18:51:36] <jmkasunich> yes, there must be a certain minimum voltage drop across the regulator
[18:52:03] <Mess> hi all.. check this out
http://www.fuellessflight.com/
[18:52:15] <jmkasunich> if you are trying to make 5V for example, and the min drop (see the regulator datasheet) is 2V, then the voltage at the regulator input must always be over 5+2 = 7 volts
[18:52:33] <jmkasunich> _always_ includes the valleys of the ripple waveform
[18:52:57] <fenn> * fenn sighs.. some day soon i'm gonna switch to a .deb base
[18:54:04] <jmkasunich> Mess: "Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Crackpot alert! Crackpot alert!"
[18:54:48] <fenn> nasa has a fuel-less airplane
[18:55:04] <jmkasunich> fenn: running on what? solar cells maybe?
[18:55:05] <fenn> its solar powered..
[18:55:21] <jmkasunich> ok, thats legit
[18:55:28] <alex_joni> yeah, but it's rather .. friable
[18:56:22] <alex_joni> http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/photo/Helios/index.html
[18:56:32] <fenn> there is actually something to that airplane.. its like a sterline engine working off the temperature differential of the upper/lower atmosphere
[18:56:37] <alex_joni> http://www.uh.edu/engines/heliosinflight.jpg
[18:56:55] <jmkasunich> wow, bendy
[18:57:14] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: "ultra-light"
[18:57:32] <alex_joni> aka "I wouldn't ride in one" ;)
[18:57:48] <jmkasunich> aka "you couldn't ride in one, you're too heavy"
[18:57:59] <alex_joni> if it would be big enough..
[18:58:39] <jmkasunich> not even then... you are a concentrated load, they rely on the weight being distributed over the entire wingspan
[18:58:39] <alex_joni> probably they needed smaller wheels to make space for the stickers with the logos
[18:59:04] <fenn> i wouldnt call it an airplane though, more like a dirigible
[18:59:14] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: eventually it can be made big enough, so that my concentrated weight is negligeable
[18:59:16] <jmkasunich> the crackpot widget you mean?
[18:59:19] <fenn> yeah
[18:59:34] <jmkasunich> the concept isn't as insane as most perpetual motion machines
[19:00:00] <jmkasunich> he is utilizing a temperature difference, so he's not trying to violate the carnot cycle...
[19:00:32] <jmkasunich> but he's gotta be several orders of magnitude off on the amount of energy that can be extracted by that
[19:01:01] <fenn> i wonder how much energy you could get out of the temperature differential in a large room
[19:01:40] <alex_joni> fenn: probably enough to light a led if you're lucky
[19:01:42] <jmkasunich> carnot effeciency is (Thot - Tcold)/Thot (or something like that)
[19:01:52] <jmkasunich> where Thot and Tcold are _absolute_ temps
[19:02:35] <jmkasunich> so if your room has Thot 25C = 298K, and Tcold = 20C = 293K, your effeciency is 5/298, or not very much
[19:03:43] <jepler> but have you ever *seen* anything that is absolute zero? No, and therefore the laws of thermophysics are inoperative!!!!1111111crackopt
[19:03:55] <jepler> *cough* sorry about that
[19:04:33] <jmkasunich> http://www.encorecleanenergy.com/
[19:05:01] <jmkasunich> they don't just have _one_ crackpot technology, they have _four_.... now I'm impressed, gonna invest right away!
[19:05:26] <jmkasunich> hah, they have a stock price chart on that page
[19:05:36] <jmkasunich> shows a steady drop to zero, then a flat line
[19:05:40] <robin_sz> I actually met one of these free-energyu crackpots once ...
[19:06:32] <fenn> * fenn is a free energy crackpot
[19:07:04] <jmkasunich> fenn: I hope not
[19:07:19] <fenn> sure but at least i understand basic physics and thermodynamics
[19:07:30] <fenn> i think there's more to it that's all
[19:07:33] <jmkasunich> by definition, then, you are not a crackpot
[19:07:45] <fenn> try telling that to a physicist
[19:08:03] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, you really dont want to get him started on this one .. hislaws of physics are nto the same as ours
[19:08:17] <fenn> hah i dont believe in any laws of physics
[19:08:23] <jmkasunich> fenn: I retract my statement, you are a crackpot
[19:08:35] <fenn> jmkasunich: thank you
[19:08:57] <jmkasunich> however, I don't think you are a _fraud_, unlike the folks on that webpage
[19:09:15] <robin_sz> Isuspect they beleive EVERYTHING they wrote
[19:09:41] <fenn> well a linear generator would be more efficient than turning all kinds of cranks and gears
[19:09:53] <fenn> no scrubbing friction on the cylinder walls
[19:10:07] <fenn> i'm planning on making an air compressor like that
[19:10:28] <robin_sz> an air compressor where the piston doesnt meet the cylinder wall?
[19:10:28] <Mess> im planning a linear generator too..
[19:10:46] <fenn> no, an air compressor without any motor or cranks or belts
[19:10:57] <fenn> just a solenoid piston
[19:11:15] <jmkasunich> fenn: the crank/connecting rod/piston losses in an internal combustion engine aren't really that big
[19:11:23] <jmkasunich> not compared to the carnot efficiency
[19:11:35] <Mess> we had an air powered hydraulic pump like that... low volume high pressure
[19:11:38] <fenn> yeah but its still significant
[19:11:56] <robin_sz> Mess, yeah, we have air powered piston pumps like that too
[19:12:24] <jmkasunich> fenn: bullshit!
[19:12:25] <Mess> small little thing hardly no moving parts in it at all...
[19:14:07] <fenn> * fenn tries to find the magic search words
[19:15:03] <Mess> http://www.gizmag.com/go/3060/
[19:17:27] <jmkasunich> oh, this is rich:
[19:17:28] <jmkasunich> Even better than Helium , according to Hunt, is the idea to use a vacuum-lift system in the hybrid aircraft. During normal operation of the aircraft, lift is provided by the vacuum contained within rigid cells.
[19:17:45] <jmkasunich> vacuum is lighter than helium, therefore I can get more lift from it
[19:17:49] <fenn> its true
[19:18:13] <fenn> especially at higher altitudes like you'd need for launching spacecraft
[19:18:30] <jmkasunich> except that the rigid housing needed to hold a vacuum is hundreds of times heavier than the helium in a thin, light bag at atmospheric pressure
[19:18:33] <Rugludallur> what material does he expect to build the aircraft from in order ....
[19:18:42] <jmkasunich> he's a crackpot
[19:19:35] <fenn> you have to keep the vacuum inflated at lower altitudes to keep it from imploding
[19:19:40] <Mess> no he isnt... hes a visionist
[19:20:16] <Mess> no he releases the vaccum at altitude to cycle it
[19:20:35] <jmkasunich> the bouyancy of _any_ object is simply the mass of the air displaced by the object
[19:21:07] <jmkasunich> the net lift is the difference between the bouyancy and the weight of that object
[19:21:08] <fenn> so dump the helium overboard
[19:21:11] <Mess> and the mass of the air at altitude is differant than at sea level
[19:21:29] <cradek> I can sure understand how you can fill a balloon, rise once, release it, and glide - but then what? how do you get it back?
[19:21:43] <Mess> the helium is compressed with compressed air around the helium bladders
[19:21:45] <jmkasunich> if the object is a filmy thin light plastic bag filled with helium just barely over atmospheric pressure, the weight is low
[19:22:23] <Mess> its a bag inside a tank
[19:22:29] <jmkasunich> if the object is a rigid tank capable of withstanding even 1/10 of atmospheric pressure, the weight is high, regardless of what is inside, even if its a vacuum
[19:22:50] <robin_sz> shh now, you are upsetting the crackpots
[19:22:53] <Mess> carbon fiber is LIGHT my friend
[19:22:55] <Rugludallur> The last time I checked vacuum pumps are horribly energy inefficent so you also have the problem of having to store massive amounts of energy to create the vacuum
[19:23:17] <robin_sz> now now, why let mere facts and practicallities spoil it ;)
[19:23:20] <jmkasunich> yeah, it takes energy to compress that air you are using for ballast
[19:23:32] <fenn> oh noes
[19:23:34] <jmkasunich> and carbon fiber is only light compared to steel or aluminum
[19:23:56] <Mess> and the turbine generator onboard provides power on climb and descent
[19:24:17] <fenn> aha! the dirty secret comes out
[19:24:29] <jmkasunich> do the fscking math people
[19:24:45] <Mess> we never said it DIDNT need power... he said it didnt use fuel...
[19:24:46] <SWPadnos> no way - if we did the math, we'd get the wrong answer
[19:25:07] <robin_sz> Mess, and how do you get power without fuel huh?
[19:25:13] <SWPadnos> solar cells
[19:25:31] <alex_joni> robin_sz: they talk about some wind turbines
[19:25:36] <alex_joni> for vertical drafts
[19:25:37] <SWPadnos> there's plenty of power all around us, it's converting it to a useful form that's the trouble
[19:25:37] <Mess> in the climbing process you pass air over blades... to run a turbine...
[19:25:52] <robin_sz> errrr ...
[19:25:55] <robin_sz> right.
[19:25:57] <jmkasunich> the guy is claiming to utilize the temperature difference between ground level air (say 20C) and high altitude air (maybe -50C) as his energy source
[19:26:04] <jmkasunich> which is theoretically possible
[19:26:10] <Mess> and in the falling you do it again
[19:26:26] <jmkasunich> but the _amount_ of energy available is miniscule, compared to the promises he makes for it
[19:26:41] <Mess> this is some of it... it makes the helium compress naturally
[19:26:43] <SWPadnos> actually, with a ~5 degree C differential, you can get usefull energy out of a phase change turbine ...
[19:26:47] <SWPadnos> ... in the ocean
[19:26:51] <robin_sz> wait, I have an idea! ... free energy from cars! .. each one tows beind a simple wheeled generator, the wheel turns the generator, HUZZAH!
[19:27:06] <robin_sz> does that sound mad?
[19:27:09] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: they are immune to your sarcasm
[19:27:31] <Mess> especially us crack pots..
[19:27:39] <robin_sz> it was juat the thought of trying to generate lift and then adding drag to get "free" energy ...
[19:27:40] <jmkasunich> especially you crackpots
[19:27:51] <jmkasunich> right
[19:28:11] <Mess> its a rape and pilage sort of cycle... i like it
[19:28:19] <jmkasunich> they start with a valid concept - there is a difference between temperature at ground level and high altitude, which is a valid source of energy
[19:28:25] <robin_sz> true
[19:28:36] <jmkasunich> then they add this incredibly complex (and inefficient btw) system to extract that energy
[19:28:43] <robin_sz> yep
[19:28:46] <SWPadnos> the lift is from the helium (or vacuum) balloon, so it will eventually overcome any drag placed on it, for the same energy input (ie, evacuating or compressing the balloon gas)
[19:28:56] <alex_joni> love the products they are selling
[19:28:57] <jmkasunich> which masks the fact that the available energy is orders of magnitude smaller than they claim
[19:28:58] <alex_joni> http://www.fuellessflight.com/Products.htm
[19:30:06] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, what they fail to reallise is the energy required to compress the helium is exactly the same as the increase in PE they get as the dvice rises higher
[19:30:19] <Mess> there's no selling new technology to you guys is there...LOL
[19:30:51] <SWPadnos> robin - I don't think so
[19:31:17] <Mess> but YOU arent compressing the helium as you rise... ONLY when you want to fall
[19:31:18] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, they maks the mistake of assuming that they can get that energy back, as they release the pressure to let the helium fill the bag again, but they cant, because they are now at a lower altitude where the external pressure is greater etc
[19:31:26] <SWPadnos> the energy to compress (or reinflate) should go up proportional to the surface area of the balloon, yet the lift goes up proportional to volume
[19:31:41] <jmkasunich> Mess: damn right there's no "selling" it to me, I know better than to spend my money on it
[19:32:11] <jmkasunich> who brought up the compression of helium anyway?
[19:32:12] <Mess> i believe... though...
[19:32:13] <jmkasunich> I don
[19:32:27] <robin_sz> some crackpot
[19:32:38] <jmkasunich> I don't think the original crackpot was claiming that. he was using phase change
[19:32:39] <Mess> it will just happen as it rises.. sorry.. physics again
[19:32:54] <robin_sz> no it expandsa as it rises
[19:32:59] <fenn> same crackpot, different article
[19:33:04] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: there's a movie
[19:33:05] <alex_joni> http://www.fuellessflight.com/index1.htm
[19:33:13] <alex_joni> which tells about the helium and compressing it
[19:33:20] <alex_joni> and how the whole thing is supposed to work
[19:33:23] <Mess> yes... watch it
[19:33:45] <jmkasunich> where? I see this: A proprietary low-boiling-point-liquid is vaporized into a low density lighter-than-air lifting gas using the heat in the air near the surface. This creates buoyancy that allows the buoyant aerostat to upward glide. The air becomes very cold when high altitude is reached and the lifting gas is cooled and changes phase to high density liquid that is heavier-than-air.
[19:33:50] <robin_sz> just remember this people. As it rises, it drags through the air, thats energy being lost. as it sinks, it drags through the air, thats energy being lost. YOU HAVE TO PUT THIS ENERGY IN SOMEWHERE
[19:34:13] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: here:
http://www.fuellessflight.com/index1.htm
[19:34:22] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, like thos dipping birds?
[19:34:32] <jmkasunich> robin: yes
[19:34:36] <fenn> what _would_ be cool is floating wind turbines over thermal updrafts
[19:34:37] <Mess> You have NEVER flown a hang or para glider have you...
[19:34:48] <robin_sz> well, yes, a lot.
[19:34:48] <alex_joni> robin_sz: they say the energy which gets created is transformed into compressed air
[19:35:04] <jmkasunich> Mess: what the hell does that have to do with _anything_
[19:35:05] <robin_sz> alex_joni, its not created its LOST
[19:35:24] <Mess> you dont need power on board do ya...
[19:35:32] <robin_sz> alex_joni, it gets converted into heat as it stirs up the air around it as it rises
[19:35:33] <jmkasunich> hang gliders utilize rising air currents caused by thermal gradients
[19:36:13] <jmkasunich> has nothing at all to do with what this crackpot proposes
[19:36:20] <Mess> and if you were to put helium bladders inside a PG it could fly forever
[19:36:37] <robin_sz> Mess, true, but then most people (including the leading commercial air operators) dont consdier gliders a useful form of long distance transport
[19:36:57] <robin_sz> Mess, no it couldnt, it would just float. it wouldnt fly
[19:37:11] <fenn> (basically) what i was thinking:
http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/technology.htm
[19:37:12] <Mess> if they could drop 70 % of their operating cost ( fuel) they would..
[19:37:41] <robin_sz> Mess, nah, they wouldnt. people prefer timely arrivals
[19:38:10] <robin_sz> ok, I think im ready
[19:38:18] <jmkasunich> the reason a hang glider _flies_ (not just floats like a hot air ballon) is because it is heavier than air, and as it drops, it pushes the air aside, mostly in one direction (out the back)
[19:38:18] <Mess> i see some pretty fast glides from 100 00 ft...
[19:38:22] <jmkasunich> as a result, it goes forwards
[19:38:29] <alex_joni> fenn: 32 x 6.25MW .. that sounds like really big turbines
[19:38:29] <robin_sz> seatbelt ... check
[19:38:36] <alex_joni> which means the whole thing would be immense
[19:38:40] <robin_sz> sid-straps .. check
[19:38:44] <fenn> oops wrong url.. here's a picture of the little one:
http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/prototype.htm
[19:38:46] <robin_sz> ok. here goes ...
[19:39:01] <Mess> 1000 ton payload boyZ
[19:39:07] <robin_sz> fenn, tell us again about the mineshaft magnetic tube pump thing
[19:39:26] <Mess> Fenn or me??
[19:39:32] <fenn> uh, that was mess' idea
[19:39:36] <jmkasunich> fenn: so how big is that? looks like a few hundred feet in diameter?
[19:39:37] <robin_sz> oh
[19:39:40] <robin_sz> right
[19:39:40] <jmkasunich> for 50Kw?
[19:39:45] <alex_joni> fenn: 50kW sound more like it
[19:39:59] <alex_joni> I wouldn't want to know how big it needs to be for 32x6.25 MW
[19:40:06] <jmkasunich> right
[19:40:29] <fenn> what really matters is $/kw*hour over the operating lifetime
[19:40:50] <fenn> hard to get that sort of data though :)
[19:41:04] <alex_joni> fenn: and initial investment
[19:41:09] <Mess> right... and a current aircraft runs in the 1000 dollar /hr or so..
[19:41:22] <pier> fenn: better to think about the payback time ....
[19:41:27] <jmkasunich> right - kW per acre of land, kW per dollar of equipment
[19:41:37] <Mess> yup
[19:42:32] <jmkasunich> looking at the road in the foreground of the pic at
http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/prototype.htm, that thing must be a couple hundred feet in diameter
[19:42:35] <Mess> they say they could produce more power than they need for the flight and discharge it once hitting the ground
[19:42:47] <jmkasunich> Mess: they also lie thru their teeth
[19:43:05] <Mess> be nice...
[19:43:14] <robin_sz> nah
[19:43:19] <jmkasunich> I am being nice
[19:43:43] <Mess> i see
[19:43:47] <robin_sz> never be nice to crackpots, it only encourages them ... its important they reallise thier mistakes before they spend too much time/money on it
[19:44:12] <Mess> but what if your one of them... ; (
[19:44:26] <jmkasunich> poor you
[19:44:44] <Mess> but i will persever and triumph...
[19:44:48] <robin_sz> but, dotn worry. we can save you
[19:44:59] <fenn> interesting.. they value the 50kw tower at about $50,000
[19:45:09] <fenn> including property value
[19:45:15] <robin_sz> the tower thing looks partially sane
[19:45:16] <Mess> and own the world... YOU can beg forgiveness lster
[19:45:28] <Mess> later
[19:45:38] <jmkasunich> Mess: ok, no problem...
[19:45:51] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich isn't worried about begging Mess for anything
[19:46:12] <Mess> be afraid... be VERY afraid...
[19:46:13] <jmkasunich> fenn: where is that?
[19:46:18] <fenn> spain
[19:46:22] <pier> go on fenn
[19:46:26] <jmkasunich> (the 50Kbuck number)
[19:46:36] <fenn> in the 2005 annual report
[19:46:41] <robin_sz> coo
[19:46:43] <fenn> http://www.enviromission.com.au/financial/2005 Annual Report.pdf
[19:46:50] <robin_sz> seems very low
[19:46:56] <robin_sz> its HUGE
[19:46:56] <jmkasunich> (btw, the greenhouse with a tower concept is _far_ less crackpotty than the fueless airplane
[19:46:59] <Mess> there is one in the arizona desert parabolic array set up after one of my small prototypes
[19:47:02] <robin_sz> ideedy
[19:47:10] <fenn> jmkasunich: on pg 25/26
[19:47:35] <robin_sz> solar is a sensible sort of idea. just needs lots of space really
[19:47:47] <fenn> floating islands baby :)
[19:47:58] <pier> roofs
[19:48:06] <jmkasunich> fenn: looking at it, don't see it
[19:48:07] <robin_sz> roofs are just too damn small
[19:48:21] <pier> quite a few of them
[19:48:26] <robin_sz> well yeah
[19:48:50] <pier> look at the german modern architecture
[19:48:56] <Mess> in 1990
[19:48:56] <robin_sz> id rather not
[19:49:14] <robin_sz> ground-based solar is another good one
[19:49:27] <fenn> jmkasunich: 8. property, plant & equipment, at cost accumulated depreciation - that means the value of the plant right?
[19:49:46] <jmkasunich> no
[19:49:48] <Mess> this was ground based.. with tracking mirrors
[19:49:54] <robin_sz> heat pumps based on brine running in a sub-surface pipe to collect heat from the soil
[19:49:58] <pier> the ara very good at placind solar panels even on balcon bannisters
[19:50:02] <jmkasunich> property, plant and equipment could well refer to their offices
[19:50:02] <pier> are
[19:50:32] <robin_sz> pier: solar as in solar heat, or solar-> electricity
[19:50:33] <robin_sz> ??
[19:50:52] <pier> solar cells for electricity
[19:51:00] <robin_sz> well, heres news baby.
[19:51:05] <jmkasunich> the good thing about that "greenhouse with a chimney" concept is that it concentrates low-density solar energy into high density moving hot air
[19:51:09] <Mess> electric i guess...
[19:51:42] <robin_sz> the studies Ihave seen based on a 5 year expected life and equitorial sun, show you never get back as much electricity as was used making hte thing
[19:51:49] <jmkasunich> the actual solar part can be cheap, bunch of poles with a clear tent spread on top even... (of course you'd have a mess in a thunderstorm)
[19:52:37] <Mess> its a glass HOTBOX
[19:52:44] <jmkasunich> right
[19:52:51] <fenn> jmkasunich: ever seen a pillowdome?
[19:52:57] <robin_sz> solar heat works well though
[19:52:58] <jmkasunich> inflated?
[19:53:00] <fenn> yeah
[19:53:03] <Mess> blow air thru a sealed up black chevy...
[19:53:18] <fenn> the tension from being inflated makes the insulation layer rigid, it doesn't flap and fatigue in the wind
[19:53:33] <Mess> our local indoor track is a pillowdome
[19:53:53] <pier> robin: mmm payback is usually 5-7 years against 30 years lifetime of an electric solar plans....
[19:53:59] <jmkasunich> pillowdome won't work for the greenhouse/chimney concept, because the cold air has to enter freely around the edges, and leave freely (after spinning the turbine) at the center
[19:54:11] <robin_sz> pier: in your dreams
[19:54:13] <fenn> no, only the insulation is inflated
[19:54:19] <fenn> there's free open space underneath it
[19:54:22] <pier> according to my little experience
[19:54:46] <robin_sz> well, then you didnt pay the full price for the panels
[19:54:46] <pier> according to financing laws in different countries
[19:54:56] <pier> yep
[19:54:59] <Mess> our track has walls to the ground
[19:55:06] <fenn> jmkasunich: you seal two sheets of plastic together and fill them with co2 or some greenhouse gas
[19:55:07] <jmkasunich> fenn: ok, so you have two layers of clear film, inflated, with the sun coming thru both, heating the ground, that heats the air...
[19:55:10] <robin_sz> pier: no grants or aid?
[19:55:35] <jmkasunich> fenn: and you can do that somewhat cheaply
[19:55:37] <fenn> yep and you can grow plants under it too :)
[19:55:46] <pier> 25-40% discount on investment years ago
[19:56:04] <jmkasunich> the energy the plants capture is energy that _doesn't_ heat the air and spin the turbine
[19:56:05] <Mess> very lucrative ones wou the ROI down in a hurryld get
[19:56:05] <robin_sz> pier: well, like I said, thats not full price then is it
[19:56:14] <fenn> yeah but plants arent that efficient
[19:56:19] <jmkasunich> (but the plants are probably more effecient than the turbine, so what the heck)
[19:56:37] <robin_sz> right
[19:56:52] <robin_sz> grow willow, chop it down, burn it in power station
[19:56:55] <jmkasunich> fenn: you also need the tall chimney
[19:57:05] <Mess> some ARE... canada's finest export world return investment in 12 months
[19:57:06] <pier> robin :it was a governments policy to ease the investment in solar energy and lower market prices
[19:57:14] <fenn> jmkasunich: the water added to the air due to transpiration would increase its mass (and therefore its kinetic energy)
[19:57:39] <jmkasunich> yes and no
[19:58:00] <jmkasunich> that added mass would need to be accelerated, which consumes energy
[19:58:13] <robin_sz> pier, so, it doesnt mean it pays back ... it just means its rigged. The figures I saw show you cant get back even the energy it took to make it .. so , the only way it can pay back is if subsidised. thats good for your pocket, but bad for the planet
[19:58:27] <fenn> actually the total kinetic energy stays the same.. that's what makes the plants cool
[19:58:43] <jmkasunich> however - the water vapor is lighter than air (H2O = 18, O2 = 32, N2 = 28)
[19:59:01] <pier> robin: mmmm Iperhaps you are right
[19:59:12] <jmkasunich> fenn: thats why I said yes and no - the adding of moisture does nothing directly to the kinetic energy
[19:59:33] <jmkasunich> but since water vapor is lighter than air (even hot air), it _will_ provide a boost
[19:59:55] <fenn> i'm having a hard time imagining water vapor as lighter than air
[19:59:57] <jmkasunich> otoh, the water becomes vapor by absorbing heat
[20:00:03] <jmkasunich> it is
[20:00:10] <robin_sz> pier: solar power by heat is 100% efficient and cheap to build (cheap as in energy input) ... electric solar is VERY low efficiency (like 1%) and expensive (energy wise) to build ...
[20:00:26] <robin_sz> fenn, it is ... never seen a kettle?
[20:00:39] <jmkasunich> whats the atomic mass of Nitrogen? Oxygen? 14 and 16.... air is mostly N2 and O2, so the molecular mass is 28 and 32
[20:00:51] <fenn> yes yes i believe you, it's just counterintuitive
[20:00:51] <pier> robin: you mean the energy needed to build silicon panels?
[20:00:57] <robin_sz> pier, yes
[20:01:01] <jmkasunich> molecular mass of water (H2O) is 16 + 2 * 1 = 18
[20:01:15] <jmkasunich> fenn: agreed about that
[20:01:41] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, careful now, you are confusing atomic mass with density
[20:01:47] <pier> robin: mine was the common point of view of electric plant designers... accordingly to government policies...
[20:02:02] <fenn> robin_sz: 1 mole of any gas is 22.4 liters
[20:02:17] <jmkasunich> pier: the very reason people are considering the idea fenn is talking about (greenhouse with a chimmney) is that solar cells are simply too expensive, in $ and energy
[20:02:41] <jmkasunich> covering an acre with solar cells costs a fortune, and gets you X% of the solar energy that lands on that acre
[20:02:56] <fenn> jmkasunich: what do you think about holding the tower aloft with a big balloon? :)
[20:02:59] <robin_sz> fenn, it is, but nto at standard pressure 1024 mb
[20:03:14] <fenn> 1024 mb?
[20:03:19] <jmkasunich> covering an acre with a clear roof and hooking up a chimney and turbine costs a lot less, and still gets you Y% of the solar energy that lands on that acre
[20:03:27] <robin_sz> 1013.2 I meant
[20:03:43] <fenn> Unknown unit 'mb'
[20:03:45] <Mess> prices are dropping rapidly though... my first solar cells cost me 300 canadian for 1.5v at .25 A... i recently got a 13 W panel for 125 dollars
[20:03:51] <robin_sz> fenn, millibar
[20:04:02] <jmkasunich> Mess: so ONLY $10 per watt
[20:04:11] <fenn> uh.. isnt stp 1 bar?
[20:04:16] <robin_sz> 1.0132 bar
[20:04:19] <Mess> ish
[20:04:23] <fenn> thats goofy
[20:04:26] <robin_sz> ISA
[20:04:28] <Mess> why??
[20:04:34] <robin_sz> international standard atmosphere
[20:05:02] <fenn> pressure measured in france vs in england??
[20:05:03] <jmkasunich> Mess: so to replace a 1000MW coal fired power plane, you'd need $10 billion dollars of solar cells
[20:05:11] <pier> all: so you are telling that solar cells electric energy production is a bit like the paper affair.... producing paper from waste paper is more polluting?
[20:05:30] <jmkasunich> (and an enourmous amount of space, and lots of electronics to turn the DC into AC)
[20:05:35] <Mess> kinda...yeah
[20:05:38] <robin_sz> so, 1 mol at 22.4 l volume ... they all have the same pressure then???
[20:06:13] <robin_sz> pier, basically, yes
[20:06:17] <pier> N Avogadro molecoules = same preassure
[20:06:17] <Mess> 1 mole at sea level is 22.4 L
[20:06:21] <robin_sz> pier: direct solar heat is the way to go
[20:06:24] <jmkasunich> Mess: as long as you can build a coal fired power plant for $100 million, nobody is gonna spend $10,000 million to get the same amount of power, only when the sun is shining
[20:06:33] <robin_sz> Mess, for all gases?
[20:06:41] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: yes
[20:06:49] <jmkasunich> ideal gas law, PV = nRT
[20:06:59] <Mess> correct
[20:07:20] <robin_sz> so, a mol is a particular numebr of atoms?
[20:07:26] <Mess> under 1 bar of pressure
[20:07:30] <pier> N Avogadro
[20:07:33] <jmkasunich> 6.02*10^23
[20:07:35] <robin_sz> 6.23x10 something
[20:07:40] <robin_sz> ok
[20:07:40] <pier> yesssss
[20:07:48] <Mess> yes.. 14.7 x 10 to the 23 i believe
[20:08:04] <robin_sz> I never new that
[20:08:06] <pier> old good phisics
[20:08:24] <Mess> ok 6.02 sound more correct.. i have a memory thing...
[20:08:33] <robin_sz> I mol of any gas fills exactly 22.4 L at STP? right?
[20:08:37] <fenn> right
[20:08:41] <jmkasunich> this entire conversation is wandering all over the place
[20:08:41] <Mess> si
[20:08:44] <jmkasunich> summary:
[20:08:48] <robin_sz> well, there you go
[20:08:58] <jmkasunich> 1) the guy with the fuelless airplane is a crackpot
[20:09:00] <robin_sz> wait, we need Mess to do the mineshaft thing
[20:09:28] <jmkasunich> 2) greenhouses with chimneys might actually be valid ways of harvesting solar energy, but they can't yet compete with other (non-solar) power sources
[20:09:42] <jmkasunich> 3) no way am I staying around for the mineshaft thing
[20:09:46] <fenn> robin_sz: we just need to make a huge hole in the ground with nuclear bombs, then dump water down it
[20:10:00] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[20:10:26] <Mess> dont look at competeing... looc at replacing for environmental reasons
[20:10:49] <fenn> OTEC is another large scale solar thermal power conversion scheme
[20:10:57] <robin_sz> and look at big holes in the ground filled with buckets of magnets
[20:11:09] <Mess> Th us will nuke Korea soon so there's your hole... i have my own.. thx
[20:11:10] <jmkasunich> Mess: replacing for environmental reasons _might_ happen when solar costs twice as much as conventional
[20:11:21] <jmkasunich> when solar costs 100 times as much as conventional, forget it
[20:11:58] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, thats closer then you think. the US will piss off the arabs sufficiently that they cut the oil suplies any time now ;)
[20:12:08] <Mess> what does your environment mean to you and your children...??
[20:12:10] <jmkasunich> Mess: would you pay $200 per gallon for "non-polluting gasoline"?
[20:12:27] <jmkasunich> _can_ you pay $200 per gallon?
[20:12:42] <Mess> it wouldnt be gasoline..
[20:12:51] <jmkasunich> it would be a replacement for gasoline
[20:12:51] <robin_sz> Mess, well, to me and my children , the enviroment is a great place to drive our V8 pickups, thanks ;)
[20:13:01] <alex_joni> you can get bio-diesel in europe
[20:13:11] <pier> 5%
[20:13:12] <Mess> i like mine too... dont get me wrong
[20:13:16] <jmkasunich> the point is, if you have a 40mpg car, it costs you $0.10 to drive a mile with gas
[20:13:21] <alex_joni> http://www.biodiesel.org/
[20:13:35] <jmkasunich> if it cost you $10 to drive a mile with say solar, could you afford to do it?
[20:13:35] <pier> only 5% of corn made diesel
[20:13:37] <Mess> or so... yeay
[20:13:55] <pier> alex: sadly enough
[20:14:10] <robin_sz> alex_joni, actualy, diesels run just fine on 100% vegetable oil
[20:14:36] <Mess> cleaned and filtered.. and 10 % ethanol...
[20:14:38] <jmkasunich> Mess: don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of environmentally sound energy sources
[20:14:38] <alex_joni> robin_sz: yeah, but not 100% clean burning
[20:14:49] <robin_sz> nothing is 100% clean burning
[20:14:51] <jmkasunich> I just want to make sure they are actually reasonable
[20:15:09] <Mess> nor is diesel... it leaves an ASH over everythin
[20:15:09] <robin_sz> why?
[20:15:23] <robin_sz> why worry, its not important at all
[20:15:26] <robin_sz> heres why
[20:15:31] <jmkasunich> when you do the math (which crackpots avoid) many of the so-called "clean" energy sources are NOT
[20:15:37] <robin_sz> we will use all the fuel, until it is gone
[20:15:45] <pier> diesel engine has a 30% efficiency whereas a Otto engine 26%
[20:15:51] <alex_joni> robin_sz: how about hydrogen
[20:15:55] <alex_joni> that burns fully clean
[20:16:01] <pier> otto cycle -> gasoline engine
[20:16:06] <robin_sz> so why worry. its all going to get used anyway ... just make sure we use it in FUN ways.
[20:16:16] <jmkasunich> alex: where do you get the hydrogen?
[20:16:24] <Mess> and set up our kids to walk alot
[20:16:27] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: lots of cars are already out there
[20:16:35] <alex_joni> with hydrogen fuel cells
[20:16:37] <jmkasunich> but where does the hydrogen fuel come from?
[20:16:48] <Mess> i made hydrogen in the '80s
[20:16:52] <pier> windmill?
[20:16:58] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, you can makje it from electrolisys ...
[20:17:10] <jmkasunich> and where does the electricity come from? ;-)
[20:17:13] <Mess> from my 1.5v - .5 a solar cells
[20:17:14] <pier> windmill
[20:17:15] <robin_sz> you just need a power station ...
[20:17:23] <alex_joni> Hydrogen can be obtained from decomposition of methane (natural gas), coal (by a process known as coal gasification), liquid petroleum products, biomass (biomass gasification), high heat sources (by a process called thermolysis), or from water using electricity (electrolysis).
[20:17:34] <jmkasunich> hydrogen isn't really an energy _source_, hydrogen is an energy _storage_ means
[20:17:48] <robin_sz> alex_joni, none of them are viable sources
[20:17:52] <jmkasunich> alex: from coal? how?
[20:18:02] <robin_sz> lets assume the cola has all run out
[20:18:07] <robin_sz> cola?
[20:18:09] <robin_sz> coal
[20:18:13] <alex_joni> jmkasunich:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car
[20:18:17] <robin_sz> ah, wha the heck
[20:18:19] <robin_sz> lets assume the cola has all run out
[20:18:20] <jmkasunich> methane, yes. CH4 can be split into C and 2xH2
[20:18:21] <alex_joni> I know little about it
[20:18:45] <pier> 2H2O
[20:18:48] <jmkasunich> btw, I visited (for work) a company that makes 300KW and 1MW fuel cells
[20:18:55] <pier> not H2
[20:19:07] <jmkasunich> they use methane (aka natural gas) as fuel
[20:19:22] <Mess> nice... should work well
[20:19:22] <robin_sz> unless you can suddenly find great pockets fo untapped hydrogen under the sea, like jkm says, its just an energy store fro other sources you have lying around
[20:19:32] <jmkasunich> the CH4 methane is mixed with air (O2) and chemically broken down
[20:19:42] <jmkasunich> the result is H2O and CO2
[20:19:45] <robin_sz> and DC out?
[20:19:49] <pier> CH4+2O2-> CO2+2H2O
[20:19:53] <jmkasunich> yes
[20:19:56] <robin_sz> coo
[20:20:01] <Mess> no DC out
[20:20:12] <jmkasunich> DC out, 300V at 1000A
[20:20:18] <robin_sz> nice
[20:20:19] <Mess> sweet
[20:20:27] <robin_sz> and lots of CO2 right?
[20:20:31] <jmkasunich> they need lots of electronics to convert it to AC and connect to the grid, which is where we come into the picture
[20:20:38] <robin_sz> right
[20:20:43] <alex_joni> is the water drinkable?
[20:20:51] <jmkasunich> CO2 and H2O (vapor) go up the chimney
[20:21:01] <alex_joni> oh.. too bad :D
[20:21:02] <jmkasunich> the exhaust is at 1200F
[20:21:03] <Mess> but Canadian tire sells ooodle of invertes these days
[20:21:06] <pier> and modify the microclimate
[20:21:29] <jmkasunich> they sometimes use the hot exhaust as a heat source for a small turbine to extract more energy
[20:21:35] <robin_sz> what efficiency do they get compared to driving a steam turbine?
[20:21:41] <jmkasunich> with exhaust heat recovery, they reach mid 60%
[20:21:50] <robin_sz> wow
[20:21:58] <jmkasunich> compared to upper 30s for a conventional powerplant burning the same methane
[20:22:04] <robin_sz> exactly
[20:22:11] <Mess> works for me
[20:22:22] <jmkasunich> now _that_ isn't crackpots, that is real engineering
[20:22:27] <robin_sz> right
[20:22:50] <robin_sz> they could pour the waste water down Mess's mine shaft, into his bucket of magnets
[20:22:57] <jmkasunich> lol
[20:23:14] <alex_joni> lol
[20:23:18] <Mess> http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/browse_product.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396671598&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1151872190495&FOLDER<>browsePath=2534374303517505&FOLDER<>browsePath=1408474396671598
[20:23:27] <robin_sz> Mess, I forget, was there enough spare energy to pump the water back up again?
[20:23:32] <Mess> cheap inverters and storage units
[20:23:44] <Mess> yes...
[20:23:47] <jmkasunich> Mess: how big (how many kW)?
[20:24:00] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, see, he said yes.
[20:24:03] <pier> but... wouldn't be micro-cogenerations be a real alternative?
[20:24:08] <Mess> not knowing yet... i do dream big though
[20:24:27] <pier> running on CH4
[20:24:29] <jmkasunich> I mean, how many kW are the cheap canadian tire inverters (the url was busted)
[20:24:50] <jmkasunich> pier: what kind of micro-cogeneration? gas turbine or something?
[20:25:03] <pier> small car engines
[20:25:19] <robin_sz> Mess, careful now, jmkasunich build BIG invertors for a living
[20:25:22] <jmkasunich> then efficiency is gonna be in the low 30's again
[20:25:31] <Mess> we built a co-gen in my home town... it now runs mostly off the turbine engine they brought in to dry saw dust /chips with..
[20:25:39] <pier> :) I designed a plant for a nun's hotel years ago
[20:25:47] <jmkasunich> fuel cells can reach 50-60% or more
[20:25:54] <fenn> i hate that canadiantire websty
[20:26:05] <Mess> sorry..
[20:26:22] <pier> 900cc engine running on LPG
[20:26:25] <Mess> thats canadas Wall mart
[20:26:34] <jmkasunich> thing is, big inverters aren't big when compared to the real energy usage
[20:26:43] <Mess> i had a 5 L v8 on LPG
[20:26:55] <pier> hot!
[20:27:03] <Mess> still have a v6 4.3 L on lpg in the driveway
[20:27:08] <jmkasunich> that 300KW fuel cell... that costs something like a million bucks.... it would take a thousand of them to replace even a small coal fired power plane
[20:27:20] <robin_sz> plane?
[20:27:25] <jmkasunich> s/plane/plant
[20:27:27] <robin_sz> coal fired plane?
[20:27:31] <fenn> * fenn wants a coal fired plane
[20:27:31] <Mess> DUDE.. THINK PERSONAL.....
[20:27:34] <robin_sz> dang, I was justimagining that
[20:27:48] <pier> jm: plenty of hot water and electric energy
[20:27:55] <jmkasunich> Mess: DUDE - small scale is NOT more efficient, OR cleaner
[20:27:59] <robin_sz> Mess, only fools think personal in terms of efficient energy ...
[20:28:07] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hi-fives jmkasunich
[20:28:09] <Mess> im GREEDY
[20:28:29] <robin_sz> community energy os better than personal energy
[20:28:29] <Mess> but i understand
[20:28:42] <Mess> i agree..
[20:28:49] <robin_sz> the real answer is simple
[20:28:52] <jmkasunich> 1 million people with V8's burning methane in their back yards will be far _worse_ than the same 1 million people getting their power from a central plant with scrubbers, multi-stage heat recovery, etc
[20:28:53] <robin_sz> USE LESS ENERGY
[20:29:08] <jmkasunich> right
[20:29:16] <pier> what about cottages in the country?
[20:29:29] <robin_sz> what about them?
[20:29:35] <robin_sz> theres always wires
[20:29:35] <jmkasunich> there are applications where small scale makes a lot of sense
[20:29:48] <fenn> what about giant oneill colonies at L5?
[20:29:49] <robin_sz> very remote sites, yes
[20:30:02] <jmkasunich> a windmill on a pole can be cheaper than running wires 20 miles to a hunting cabin
[20:30:07] <robin_sz> exactly
[20:30:13] <jmkasunich> (assuming you need significant electricity at a hunting cabin)
[20:30:27] <jmkasunich> there _are_ places where micro-power, solar, wind, etc, makes sense
[20:30:39] <jmkasunich> and we should take advantage of those places
[20:30:41] <jmkasunich> and grow them
[20:30:54] <jmkasunich> as conventional power gets more expensive, there will be more and more such places
[20:30:58] <Mess> the small scale of a hunt cabine is where canuck tire comes in... inverters for 300 canadian
[20:31:18] <jmkasunich> I have absolutely no problem with that
[20:31:42] <pier> large neighborhoods need large scale plants
[20:31:54] <jmkasunich> but when people like the fuelless plane guy start businesses and sell stock in crackpot ideas, that isn't about energy or the environment
[20:32:12] <jmkasunich> either they are clueless idealists, or they're crooks who know damn well what the real physics are
[20:33:11] <Mess> there is another option... they could know something YOU dont...
[20:33:42] <jmkasunich> sure... but something that I and the rest of the engineering community don't? not bloody likely
[20:34:02] <Mess> hmmm never say never...
[20:34:22] <jmkasunich> either show me the mathematical analysis that says it will work on a real scale, or show me a working unit (on a real scale)
[20:34:25] <Mess> thats how the wright bros got off
[20:34:41] <Mess> understood...
[20:35:10] <Mess> seeing is believing and touching is the GODS honest truth
[20:35:23] <pier> some French flew before them though :) someone says
[20:35:24] <jmkasunich> about the wright bros: bull... there were several groups working on powered heavier than air flight around that time, and most techincal people believed it was possible
[20:35:46] <jmkasunich> the main issues were control, not energy
[20:36:03] <jmkasunich> energy is one area where you can apply some simple rules to tell the crackpots from the serious
[20:36:04] <Mess> by then... yeah.. NOT in the beginning.. they were BIKE mechanics...
[20:36:10] <pier> Kutta Juckowsky were not known then
[20:36:50] <Mess> with a stupid idea just like me now..
[20:37:36] <jmkasunich> the wright brothers ideas had to do with controlling an airplane, not powering it
[20:37:52] <jmkasunich> there is a big difference
[20:37:54] <Mess> correct..
[20:38:13] <jmkasunich> power/energy follows some fundamental rules, that only crackpots try to break
[20:38:29] <jmkasunich> below the fundamentals there are a million details that need to be right to make something work
[20:38:47] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/classicladder/classicladder_gtk.c: make it build again
[20:38:56] <jmkasunich> but when someone ignores the fundamentals, you don't need to look a the details to see what is wrong
[20:39:10] <Mess> but once you leave the ground... you have to land...launch is optional..land is mandatory..
[20:39:11] <jmkasunich> yay, somebody doing something smarter than this stupid discussion
[20:39:12] <jepler> it looks like a matching commit to one of the header files is probably missing
[20:39:15] <jmkasunich> thanks jepler
[20:39:18] <fenn> thanks jepler..
[20:39:18] <jepler> * jepler bows
[20:39:40] <jmkasunich> on that note, I have machining to do
[20:40:00] <Mess> make chip my friend... ;)\
[20:40:24] <jmkasunich> only one?
[20:40:46] <Mess> i made chips this am.. on a MAZAC of all things...
[20:40:57] <Mess> mazak
[20:41:19] <pier> nite everybody!
[20:41:25] <Mess> i HATE that control
[20:42:05] <Mess> iso code at least..
[20:44:01] <Mess> http://www.wiebel.ca/ here is where im workin out of this week..
[20:44:13] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[20:47:49] <jmkasunich> btw, for the curious:
http://www.fce.com/
[20:47:57] <jmkasunich> 300KW and 1MW fuel cells
[20:48:17] <Mess> thx.. : )
[20:49:42] <jmkasunich> very interesting explanations here
http://www.fce.com/site/misc/faqs/faqs3.html
[20:50:21] <Mess> slick
[20:52:41] <robin_sz> coo, the maybugs are emerging
[20:54:19] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[20:54:22] <Mess> i do believe...
[20:54:31] <robin_sz> interesting sight, but quite a ugly looking bug
[20:56:27] <Mess> explain??
[20:56:53] <jmkasunich> couple months late aren't they
[20:57:24] <Jymmm> Hola!
[20:57:58] <Jymmm> everyone asleep I see =)
[20:58:27] <Mess> hi Jymmm
[20:58:37] <Jymmm> Howdy Mess
[20:59:09] <Mess> ive been relocated to the east coast of Canada... for a week or so..
[20:59:40] <Mess> im ALMOST fed up with eating lobster...
[20:59:57] <Jymmm> I guess that means I can't call you "Nanook of the NORTH then" =)
[21:00:21] <Mess> sure... but its north east for a bit.. LOL
[21:00:31] <Jymmm> oh come one now... it's lobster... lil slab of beef on the side, some garlic and you're good to go!
[21:00:47] <Mess> Prince Edward island... Potatoe country
[21:01:04] <Jymmm> Mmmmmmmmmmmm potato pancakes!
[21:01:48] <Jymmm> oil as hell, but tasty!
[21:01:51] <Jymmm> oily
[21:01:51] <Mess> but since Tuesday of last week... LOL im stufferd.. soaked in butter and ate surf & turf 2 x already
[21:01:59] <Jymmm> lol
[21:02:15] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[21:02:28] <Jymmm> is it cold where you are?
[21:03:33] <Mess> the guy i met here had a feast at the secretary's house... her hubby fishes lobster.. there were 30 lobser on the table and vise grips at each place setting... he didnt want to see another lobster...
[21:03:53] <Mess> once i got here..LOL
[21:04:36] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-Live rc46 (2.4.25-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[21:04:48] <Jymmm> Yeah, and a week after you leave, you'll be thinking otherwise
[21:05:16] <Mess> yeah.. lookin' for the local red lobster i bet.. withdrawl..LOL
[21:05:26] <Jymmm> ewwwwwwwww
[21:06:08] <Jymmm> not a red lbster fan
[21:06:25] <Mess> most of the locals dont even want to eat lobster...LOL
[21:07:22] <Mess> i had a lobster spagatini that would KILL a tri-athelete... SOOOO..RICH
[21:07:23] <robin_sz> Mess, see
http://www.homepages.mcb.net/wormwell/Cockchafer.htm
[21:07:25] <Jymmm> sick and tired of it, I know I'd be.
[21:08:02] <Mess> nice bug...
[21:08:18] <robin_sz> in ones and twos // yes
[21:08:25] <robin_sz> in the thousands?
[21:08:46] <robin_sz> the grub is a big fat white thing ...
[21:08:54] <robin_sz> the badgers dig up the lawn looking for it
[21:09:50] <Mess> do the grubs KILL the lawn... or do you just hunt the badgers??
[21:10:30] <robin_sz> the badgers hunt the grubs, they dig up the lawn
[21:10:35] <Mess> we had a grub the last feww yrs... that would KILL the lawn... Never to return
[21:10:53] <robin_sz> and no one, not NO ONE is allwoed to harm a badger here.
[21:10:57] <Mess> and WHYdont YU hunt the badgers... for fur
[21:11:10] <Mess> really??? why??
[21:11:11] <robin_sz> they are a VERY protected animal here
[21:11:35] <Mess> where are yu located again??
[21:11:39] <robin_sz> UK
[21:12:01] <Mess> an island.. .that protects predators??
[21:12:09] <Mess> odd
[21:12:14] <robin_sz> not really,
[21:12:24] <robin_sz> they kill rabbits.
[21:12:41] <robin_sz> but so they do more good than bad
[21:12:47] <Mess> what about ferrets?? ermine?? polecats??
[21:12:58] <robin_sz> we have almost none of those
[21:13:11] <robin_sz> a few polecats maybe, but very rare
[21:13:18] <Mess> really... i thoought YOU still had those.. WE dont..
[21:13:23] <robin_sz> nah
[21:13:27] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[21:13:36] <robin_sz> badgers are protected because
[21:13:50] <Mess> hmm i had a few pet ferrets/ polecats
[21:14:00] <robin_sz> people have a habit of killing them for sport in cruel ways (fightin gwith dogs etc)
[21:14:11] <robin_sz> so, they are just OUT OF BOUNDS
[21:14:14] <robin_sz> in big letters
[21:14:32] <robin_sz> killing a badger can end you up in jail, for any reason
[21:14:53] <Mess> makes sense... we have Wolverines.. badgers NASTIEST brothers... will kill a BEAR
[21:15:08] <robin_sz> yeah, bigger badder badger :)
[21:15:29] <Mess> same size... really.. just with an attitude..
[21:15:36] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:15:41] <robin_sz> so ... anyway ...
[21:15:45] <robin_sz> cnc stuff :)
[21:15:54] <robin_sz> a friend is making his own linear drives
[21:16:01] <robin_sz> this is going to be fun :)
[21:16:03] <Mess> i saw 1 in the wild... was robbing my snares...
[21:16:23] <Mess> making linear drives.. im in...
[21:16:39] <Mess> talk to me..
[21:16:48] <robin_sz> looks easy enough, just a bunch of magnets :)
[21:16:51] <robin_sz> and some wire
[21:17:15] <robin_sz> the track prices up around £35 / metre
[21:17:17] <Mess> yup... looks easy enuf.. controlling it might be fun though
[21:17:25] <robin_sz> nah control is easy
[21:17:29] <robin_sz> standard servo drive
[21:17:39] <Mess> really HOW??
[21:17:49] <robin_sz> you just connect up the wires :)
[21:18:02] <fenn> sounds fun.. i was thinking about how to make a cylindrical linear motor
[21:18:17] <Mess> LOLL tx.. ill do that and send YOU the bill right
[21:18:17] <fenn> just standard ring magnets and cylindrical coils of wire
[21:18:27] <robin_sz> yeah, stainless tub filled with round magnets ... ?
[21:18:28] <Mess> been there...
[21:18:43] <fenn> seems easier and more efficient than the regular configuration because the magnetic circuit is closed
[21:18:49] <robin_sz> oh, ring magnets and the other way around .. sounds hard
[21:18:50] <fenn> well, mostly closed
[21:18:52] <Mess> DMG machines use them for their rotary axes
[21:19:18] <robin_sz> we reckon to get around 1250N out of this one when its built
[21:19:21] <robin_sz> peak
[21:19:46] <robin_sz> gonna buy Heidenhein linear encoders to drive it though
[21:19:59] <Mess> VERY strong motors... But no lead screw to crash iether
[21:20:10] <robin_sz> and use hall effect sensors to commutate it
[21:20:21] <Mess> stick with the BEST...
[21:20:54] <Mess> sounds like your in buisness
[21:22:32] <Mess> be careful of the turnaround speedt and accel/decels
[21:22:32] <fenn> do you really need hall effect sensors though?
[21:22:58] <robin_sz> fenn: well, for startup, yes, if you want to avoid a sudden jump
[21:24:00] <robin_sz> the hall sensors just drive the commutation of the drive, rather like the resolver in a AC drive
[21:24:05] <Mess> the scales should be able to handle the resolution so as long as accel/decell are mapped you could probably do without
[21:24:23] <robin_sz> oh the scales drive the feedback for sure
[21:25:21] <Mess> map the acell/decells...and set hard limits to avoid needing Hall sensor
[21:26:04] <Mess> besides... what are you gonna hook up the hall to??
[21:26:39] <robin_sz> the sense input on this Baldor drive
[21:26:42] <Jymmm> I want to make a lil bending jig for .5" x .125" aluminum bar... But you know when you want to bend to 90 deg, you have to bend a lil past that to get the desired angle. Is there anything for calculating that by chance?
[21:26:53] <Mess> hall sensor would be used to swap phases in the drive>>>
[21:27:00] <robin_sz> its called "springback"
[21:27:15] <Mess> yes...
[21:27:34] <robin_sz> Jymmm, theres a reference work called "bendworks" soemwhere out there, that has most bending stuff on it
[21:28:17] <Jymmm> http://www.massey.ac.nz/~odiegel/bendworks/ ???
[21:28:33] <robin_sz> thats it ... the PDF has a world of info in it
[21:28:36] <Mess> alu .125 thk over bend by 3-5 degrees.. from memory... 2024 alu??
[21:28:56] <robin_sz> Jymmm, I cant remember if it has what you need, but it has lots of good stuff
[21:29:18] <Jymmm> Mess nfc... bought some surplus at below recycle cost =)
[21:29:18] <robin_sz> in practice though, just bend, measure and adjust the stops :0
[21:29:40] <robin_sz> well, bend it, measure it, see how far it goes back .. easy really
[21:29:41] <Mess> yup... i like
[21:29:48] <Mess> Robin's way
[21:30:05] <robin_sz> but read the bendworks PDF anyway, its VERY informative
[21:30:10] <Mess> if you dont know... you have extra mat'l
[21:30:12] <Jymmm> It's cheap crap... if you bend slightly too much it snaps
[21:30:24] <robin_sz> anneal it
[21:30:36] <robin_sz> got some soap?
[21:30:51] <Jymmm> sure
[21:30:55] <Mess> crunchy... boil in water then bbend... it will keep it from snapping
[21:31:10] <robin_sz> soap blacken at the anneal temp of most ally
[21:31:22] <robin_sz> rub a bit on one side, heat the other till it turns black
[21:32:02] <Jymmm> do I need to bend while hot?
[21:32:03] <Mess> no go to anneal temp... your part willbe wortless... 50 deg f below anneal temp MAX
[21:32:24] <Mess> ideally yes... it WILL work out
[21:33:25] <robin_sz> read up on annealing ...
[21:33:28] <Jymmm> boiling water (212F) would be hot enough?
[21:33:54] <Mess> i saved 10 days on a stress relief operation that needed to go to ontario for a 1 hr stress reliev operation... i BIOLED IN A OBSTER POT>> instead
[21:34:11] <Mess> LOBSTER POT...
[21:34:19] <Jymmm> I have a turkey deep fryer (same as lobster pot)
[21:34:26] <Mess> worked great on Friday
[21:34:31] <Jymmm> heh
[21:34:40] <Mess> but with water...
[21:34:50] <robin_sz> Jymmm, not really hot enough now, just heat to soap balckening temp and let it cool SLOWLY
[21:35:01] <Jymmm> oh come on... no 350 deg F peanut oil?!?!?! =)
[21:35:35] <Mess> i got our materials and processes guy to sighn off on it.. it is now part of their standard mfg plan.. :)
[21:36:32] <Mess> put in cold water... bring to boil and cool in air away from drafts
[21:36:42] <Jymmm> I can see it now... Bill of Materials: 1) 2024 ALuminum 2) Lobster Pot
[21:36:46] <Mess> boil for 1 hr max
[21:36:54] <robin_sz> pah ... it needs 650F to anneal
[21:36:58] <robin_sz> http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php
[21:37:25] <Mess> 2024 is VERY crunchy... bend warm is my suggestion
[21:37:57] <robin_sz> shrug it might not even be 2024
[21:38:34] <jepler> mutt -f=definbox
[21:38:36] <jepler> oops
[21:38:47] <Mess> warm will still be best and 212 deg F wont hurt it.. 280 os so will be temper temp
[21:39:11] <Mess> or so
[21:40:56] <Mess> over bend warm... then correctively bend to spec after cooling
[21:41:41] <Jymmm> Heh, THAT's when it has been snapping... when I try to correct the bend
[21:42:03] <Mess> then re-heat it...
[21:42:11] <Mess> boil again
[21:42:25] <Jymmm> who said anything about using heat previously =)
[21:43:03] <Mess> when bending you are loading it up.. then the re-bend snaps it
[21:43:10] <robin_sz> well, whatever, Jymm, read
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php and note the temps ...
[21:43:36] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Yeah, those crayons seem kind cool too.
[21:43:50] <Mess> I mentioned you NEEDEd heat.. what temper is the mat'l in... T6,T7??
[21:43:51] <robin_sz> yeah, but soap works in a pinch
[21:44:06] <Mess> soap/// parafinn
[21:44:15] <Jymmm> robin_sz you talking like ivory bar soap, or liquid dishwashing soap?
[21:44:21] <robin_sz> bar soap
[21:44:31] <Mess> whatever temperatur control you choose
[21:44:31] <Jymmm> ah, even better.
[21:44:52] <robin_sz> (made from animal fat and ash usually ... weird huh?)
[21:45:12] <Mess> no..natural.. and correct..
[21:45:13] <Jymmm> heh, like the old soap made from lye
[21:45:22] <robin_sz> right
[21:45:37] <Mess> boiling is an old school way of stress relieving alu..
[21:45:44] <robin_sz> true,
[21:45:51] <Mess> below critical temps
[21:45:58] <Jymmm> Somewhere arounf here I Have a survival article about washing your clothes and making soap.
[21:45:58] <robin_sz> takes a while though .. and is only strees relieving, not annealing
[21:46:25] <Jymmm> will it lose it's "springiness" afterwards?
[21:46:35] <robin_sz> in its annealed state, yes
[21:46:43] <Mess> true... but realistically he dont want to anneal it
[21:46:54] <robin_sz> sure?
[21:47:05] <Mess> not
[21:47:14] <robin_sz> well, whatever, id anneal and re temper after bedning
[21:47:27] <robin_sz> heat and fast quench
[21:48:07] <Mess> so boil i oil...bend... boil in water...re-hit...boil in oil..& quench..
[21:48:40] <Mess> fyi oil and watr dont like each other
[21:49:01] <Jymmm> I'll add in some basamic vinigar
[21:49:06] <Mess> DO not add wet part to hot oil
[21:49:24] <Mess> and some garlic... but NO salt
[21:49:42] <Jymmm> Like I said I have a TRUKEY DEEP FRYER... I'm well aware of water and 350 F oil
[21:50:00] <Mess> be safe pls..
[21:50:20] <Jymmm> we learned to dry the cavity of the birds very well
[21:50:42] <Jymmm> can't beat a fully cooked turkey in 34 minutes =)
[21:51:06] <Mess> my process is for an aircraft nose landing gear Pivot tube... thats a BIG deep fryer..LOL
[21:51:35] <Jymmm> holds almost 5 gallons of peanut oil.
[21:51:36] <Mess> Alu - 7074-t73
[21:51:49] <Jymmm> cold oil, not hot (which we also learned about )
[21:52:06] <Mess> wow... god thin my dad cant get one of those hed be 300 lbs...LOL
[21:52:29] <Mess> spit and throw...LOL
[21:52:37] <Jymmm> They make the BEST fried potatoes ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:52:42] <robin_sz> ahh, 2024 takes 3 hours to soak harden, 650 down to 500 degrees over 3 hours
[21:53:17] <Mess> precipitation harden its called..
[21:54:09] <Mess> hydraulic fluid "should do that" 32 weight or so.. maybe 46 if needed
[21:54:13] <robin_sz> yeah ..
[21:54:38] <Mess> mar aging is another name
[21:54:46] <robin_sz> ally is such funny stuff to work with
[21:55:56] <Mess> i am working on a 2 kg forging that sells at 900 grams.. its a 3 pronged tuning fork..
[21:56:00] <robin_sz> ahhm, ok. 2024 naturally re-hardens in about 4 days
[21:56:18] <Mess> so let stand...
[21:58:25] <Mess> we have some parts in-house with mandatory sits for 72 hrs... for stress and other suff
[22:02:08] <Mess> i love the lobster pot stress relief idea.. sorry worked when i got stuck on an island...LOL
[22:02:56] <Mess> if i had a plane and needed a pivot tube... i'll have one by next friday...
[22:03:43] <Jymmm> I aint putt'n 10W30 in my turkey fryer! =)
[22:03:58] <Mess> http://www.wiebel.ca im working here this week
[22:04:39] <Mess> so get an old metal pail and start a fire... or Coleman stove...
[22:05:46] <Mess> they dont pay worth a crap.. but stuff is cheap on-island
[22:06:25] <Mess> and 10w30 isnt hydraulic oil...
[22:07:16] <Jymmm> It was a joke, what I was saying is I'm not putting in any non food-grade oil in my fry pot =)
[22:10:22] <Mess> veg oil shouldnt be THAT far off unless you HAVE to certify the parts to faa or other agency
[22:10:29] <robin_sz> that tinman site has a LOT of good info
[22:10:38] <robin_sz> the guy is a real craftsman
[22:10:38] <Dallur> jmkasunich: you still up ?
[22:11:02] <Jymmm> Mess hardly =)
[22:11:09] <Mess> he is... done his homework
[22:11:23] <robin_sz> Jymmm certifies to the JAA spec
[22:11:45] <robin_sz> Jymmm approved and accepted :)
[22:11:57] <Mess> Just Arrived Around??
[22:13:19] <Mess> ALL the women have BIGG BOOBS here... whats up with that???
[22:13:37] <Mess> the water??? maybe??
[22:14:10] <Jymmm> All the women in LA have BIG COLLECTIONS OF SILICON
[22:14:47] <Jymmm> Mess is there a lot of fast food joints arounf there?
[22:14:52] <Mess> not here... all natural beauties... and "few" wear bra's
[22:15:12] <Mess> a few.. i haven't visited
[22:15:33] <Mess> Jymmm.. i'm on PEI this week FYI
[22:16:01] <Jymmm> PEI ?
[22:16:23] <Jymmm> Practicing Exotic Indulgances
[22:16:34] <Mess> i had 1 fellow employee ask me if there was a MIN weight restriction on women on the island...
[22:16:50] <Mess> Prince Edwadr Island
[22:16:52] <Jymmm> lol
[22:17:03] <robin_sz> 400lbs
[22:17:03] <Jymmm> all fat?
[22:17:26] <Jymmm> PEI == Practicing Erotic Indulgances
[22:17:33] <Jymmm> sounds better
[22:17:38] <Mess> i told him to STOP hangin' out at the old folks home...
[22:17:45] <Jymmm> lol
[22:18:37] <Mess> hmmm i seen a couple a gay guys who might have been headin' there...LOLL
[22:18:56] <Mess> Gaydar workin; OK
[22:20:01] <Jymmm> lol
[22:20:13] <robin_sz> careful now ... you never know who on here is gay ...
[22:20:22] <Jymmm> I live 40 miles from San Francisco.. Gay capital of the world!
[22:21:29] <Mess> LOL... im no phobe... so i could care less....
[22:21:40] <Jymmm> Uh huh... we believe you
[22:22:04] <Mess> ok..LOL
[22:22:24] <Mess> married 3 kids hides alot... :0)
[22:23:24] <robin_sz> yeah, but we also know you dress like Freddie Mecury on a friday night ;)
[22:23:25] <Jymmm> Gays are fine, it's fags you have to steer clear of. But that goes with any clicks (sp)... white, white trash; blacks, niggers; it's not a race but an attitude I'm preduce againest.
[22:24:13] <robin_sz> hmmmm ... I think I will let you continue on your own with that line of converstion ....
[22:24:31] <Mess> pls dont leave me..
[22:25:07] <Mess> they are all the same.. just Where they are at..
[22:25:34] <Jymmm> It's all good.
[22:25:54] <robin_sz> so, leaving asside the various creeds and leanings of the planet ...
[22:26:05] <Mess> as a litttle green man it ist my place to lay names/blame..
[22:26:38] <robin_sz> you cant be logged in from mars ...
[22:26:56] <Mess> who mentioned Mars??
[22:26:57] <Jymmm> robin_sz: He said GREEN
[22:27:18] <robin_sz> I thought the green men lived on Mars, no?
[22:27:27] <Mess> nope...Canada
[22:27:32] <Jymmm> ROTF
[22:27:34] <robin_sz> ahh,
[22:27:44] <robin_sz> anywya
[22:27:52] <robin_sz> tcp/ip wont work to mars :)
[22:28:32] <Mess> 90% of the population in 10 % of the land leaves alot of room for GREEN guys
[22:29:02] <Mess> with TCP/ip access
[22:29:07] <robin_sz> heh
[22:29:51] <robin_sz> I am so happy with my new printer
[22:30:06] <robin_sz> well, 2nd user ebay printer
[22:30:06] <Mess> what did you get??
[22:30:15] <robin_sz> Xerox Phaser
[22:30:22] <Mess> $$$
[22:30:24] <robin_sz> hot wax printer
[22:30:32] <robin_sz> £39 ... like 50 USD
[22:30:38] <Mess> wow..
[22:30:54] <robin_sz> and a bucket of wax for like 100 USD
[22:31:04] <Jymmm> $%USD for the wax blocks?
[22:31:09] <Jymmm> 35
[22:31:20] <Mess> you could do tatoo stensils over the web with that
[22:31:36] <Mess> and make $$$$$$$$$'s
[22:31:46] <robin_sz> at xerox prices it would have been 800 bucks for the wax .. god I lurv ebay
[22:32:19] <Mess> what you use it for??
[22:32:31] <robin_sz> whatever, it makes awesome glossy prints .. you can touch em and feel it
[22:32:45] <robin_sz> presentations/quaotes/flyers for my business
[22:32:52] <Mess> but at 1.00 $ per page???
[22:33:23] <robin_sz> nah, really cheap to run, the wax lasts AGES for printing, its the purge cycle as it wamrs up that suses about $10
[22:33:28] <robin_sz> so its on a UPS now :)
[22:33:54] <Mess> the touchy feely print are nice...
[22:34:01] <robin_sz> they are
[22:34:08] <robin_sz> glossy just like a real photo
[22:34:21] <robin_sz> and solid colours
[22:34:24] <Mess> cool
[22:34:27] <robin_sz> no sreaking like inkjet
[22:34:31] <robin_sz> streaking
[22:34:32] <Mess> cant beat the $$
[22:36:06] <Mess> looks like i have to go eat...tummy grumblin' bbl
[22:37:07] <jmkasunich> Dallur: yeah, I'm here
[22:37:21] <jmkasunich> (sort of, doing machining, looking at the screen when I need to check the drawing)
[22:38:21] <Mess> WATCH the machine.... it has tools attatched
[22:41:38] <jmkasunich> machine is 8 feet from screen, I don't do both at the same time
[22:44:31] <Dallur> jmkasunich: ok, I have been thinking about features for vcp, there are two things which I think would be great to have in addition to what we have already talked about, 1. the ability to assign color to buttons based on status of signal/pin and buttons which retain state (if you push it down it remains down untill pulled up)
[22:51:44] <jmkasunich> the latter is known as a toggle button, and is on the list
[22:51:54] <jmkasunich> for the former, you can embed an led into a button
[22:52:29] <jmkasunich> I know thats not the same as having the whole button change color, but...
[22:52:36] <Dallur> jmkasunich, What I do is define a box with a led and a button :D
[22:52:43] <jmkasunich> that works too
[22:52:59] <jmkasunich> depends on the look you want, LED beside button, or LED inside button
[22:53:20] <Dallur> jmkasunich: hmm might try that, could work out better than what I have
[22:53:55] <jmkasunich> you can also put a box inside the button, then put LED and text (label) inside the box
[22:54:32] <Dallur> jmkasunich: :D I will experiment
[23:11:36] <Dallur> jmkasunich:Are you sure about the led inside button ? I get -> 'LED' not permitted as child of 'button'
[23:12:06] <jmkasunich> try putting a box inside the button, the the led inside that... maybe the only thing allowed in buttons is boxes
[23:12:52] <Dallur> jmkasunich: will do
[23:24:01] <Dallur> jmkasunich: Although I don't seem to get any parsing errors using boxes inside buttons I an unable to link agains any leds contained within the boxes and VCP is not rendered, might be a bug there
[23:26:47] <jmkasunich> ok, will have to look into it
[23:37:53] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, just as a side note, I did get around to looking at the HAL/VCP stuff a bit more, very impressed
[23:38:28] <jmkasunich> thanks
[23:38:35] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, personally, I think this is going to grow and expand, the other control panels will eventually wither
[23:38:47] <jmkasunich> not likely
[23:38:51] <jmkasunich> they will co-exist
[23:39:17] <jmkasunich> halvcp can't (and won't) open files and do other such high level things
[23:39:25] <robin_sz> shrug
[23:39:40] <robin_sz> imagine we visual VCP configure tool
[23:39:51] <robin_sz> not that far away from what I see?
[23:40:02] <jmkasunich> very far away
[23:40:12] <jmkasunich> visual config as opposed to editing text files?
[23:40:17] <robin_sz> sure
[23:40:19] <fenn> visual configuration is a lot different from config files
[23:40:21] <jmkasunich> thats like Glade vs. Gtk
[23:40:36] <jmkasunich> Glade is _not_ a trivial thing to design
[23:41:13] <robin_sz> i was thinking of a tool that lets you drag a few things about and drop in components, then prodcues as output the current config files
[23:41:28] <robin_sz> not that hard to imagine is it?
[23:41:48] <jmkasunich> I'm not talking about imagining. imagining a program is easy. Actually writing it isn'ttakes a better man than me to actual
[23:41:58] <jmkasunich> oops, got two lines mixed
[23:42:12] <robin_sz> well, assume for a moment that it exists ...
[23:42:24] <jmkasunich> writing it isn't easy, an in fact would take a better programmer than me to do
[23:42:28] <robin_sz> (just for a moment)
[23:42:59] <jmkasunich> fine, I'm ass-u-me-ing
[23:43:51] <robin_sz> well, then I can see people creating all sorts of panels that fit various needs, and begging for yet more components .. (like maybe even a file select that will never happen component)
[23:44:15] <les_w> oh, hey robin.
[23:44:22] <jmkasunich> file select will never happen because halvcp talks to the world thru HAL
[23:44:23] <fenn> lol that's not the best picture to paint robin
[23:44:33] <robin_sz> I cant see the "old" panels being popular for long ...
[23:44:45] <jmkasunich> hal doesn't (and will not) handle anything higher level than floats and bits
[23:44:56] <robin_sz> i think when that tool hapens, which it will, the pressures will change ...
[23:45:05] <jmkasunich> they can pressure all they want
[23:45:10] <robin_sz> just a prediction ;)
[23:45:32] <robin_sz> hey les_w
[23:45:47] <jmkasunich> I predict neither a vcp graphical tool nor a general HAL graphical tool will happen anytime soon
[23:45:48] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, ok, you can stop assuming now :)
[23:46:02] <jmkasunich> I'd like to have both of those, just don't see it happening
[23:46:08] <jmkasunich> good, its time for dinner
[23:46:16] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, I predict within 12 months. I bet no one predicted a VCP 12 months ago either
[23:47:40] <jmkasunich> actually, I had vcp in mind at least 12 months ago
[23:48:21] <jmkasunich> but IMO the difference is the amount of work needed to make the tools (lots) and the number of programmers who have A) the skills and B) the time
[23:48:43] <robin_sz> we'll see
[23:48:55] <jmkasunich> we will ;-)
[23:49:17] <jmkasunich> believe me, nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong about those tools
[23:49:40] <jmkasunich> (OTOH, HAL opening files will happen over my dead body, thats just _not_ what HAL is for)
[23:49:47] <Dallur> From what I have seen, EMC might just be ready to take off big time, IMHO it's at the point where the core tech is ready for a takeoff
[23:50:05] <les_w> I am just quietly listening since my main concern is factory automation
[23:50:11] <les_w> using rtai
[23:50:25] <les_w> which I have pretty much sold to management
[23:50:41] <robin_sz> well, imagine beignable to easily make new VCPs in a GUI tool of some random sort
[23:50:53] <robin_sz> most other systems can. like Baldors MINT stuff
[23:51:08] <robin_sz> or Mach2 <did I say that bad workd?>
[23:51:23] <robin_sz> or any of the modern PLC thingys
[23:51:46] <jmkasunich> I'm really not interested in what you or anyone else thinks would be nice (including myself), I'm interested in what we have the skills and time to do
[23:52:12] <robin_sz> thats what will sell it to integrators ... maybe someone will put up the money/effort to achieve it
[23:54:11] <robin_sz> im absolutely convinced this is going to go furhter than you think ... HAL has already gone furhter than you first thought hasnt it?
[23:54:21] <jmkasunich> not really
[23:54:49] <robin_sz> aww cmon, it started off as just a way of hooking up IO
[23:55:03] <robin_sz> and now its got all sorts of building blocks in there
[23:55:07] <jmkasunich> ok, its gone a lot farther than the original concept
[23:55:11] <robin_sz> right
[23:55:24] <robin_sz> ach, call be back in 12 months ;)
[23:55:27] <robin_sz> me
[23:55:28] <jmkasunich> but within a few months, I was already thinking of HAL as something bigger
[23:55:41] <jmkasunich> that was 2-1/2 years ago
[23:55:48] <jmkasunich> and thats what got Paul so worked up
[23:55:59] <robin_sz> ah yes .. I remember that :)
[23:56:03] <les_w> We would like to use it but are confounded by NDAs and such
[23:56:12] <jmkasunich> use what?
[23:56:48] <les_w> A HAL (like yours) for general factory automation with real time linux
[23:56:54] <robin_sz> * robin_sz struggles to see how NDAs affect anything
[23:56:57] <jmkasunich> and you can't use it because?
[23:57:13] <fenn> you dont have to release anything if you dont distribute binaries
[23:57:24] <les_w> Well, I have funding.
[23:57:31] <fenn> and?
[23:57:35] <les_w> But I have to hire you experts.
[23:57:44] <robin_sz> infact even if you do distribute binaries, you only have to release to your clients
[23:57:49] <jmkasunich> the only proprietary content would be your .hal files
[23:57:53] <jmkasunich> so GPL is a non-issue
[23:57:57] <robin_sz> exactly
[23:58:00] <les_w> AN NDA would be required.
[23:58:03] <jmkasunich> (unless you need special modules)
[23:58:09] <les_w> You guys have day jobs.
[23:58:24] <cradek> so?
[23:58:34] <les_w> heh
[23:58:41] <jmkasunich> les: just because there are only a dozen folks in the world that currently are proficient with HAL doesn't mean its that hard to learn
[23:58:55] <robin_sz> very true
[23:58:57] <jmkasunich> it just means not that many folks have tried it for anything
[23:59:01] <les_w> I understand that.
[23:59:16] <fenn> there are also other realtime packages like rtlab
[23:59:19] <cradek> les_w: sorry for being dense, but I still don't see what you're getting at regarding NDAs
