#emc | Logs for 2006-09-20

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[00:14:20] <A-L-P-H-A> any one got plans for a metal bar bender? Like one that makes large circles from bars?
[00:14:24] <K`zan> Hi Folks, back again, made a lot of changes and spent a chunk of $$$ since the gantry router project and am getting ready to CNC the micro-mill next month.
[00:14:34] <K`zan> Heh A-L-P-H-A
[00:14:38] <A-L-P-H-A> like 3/8 to 1/2 bar...
[00:14:45] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan!
[00:14:59] <K`zan> No U sure don't, won't a pipe bender work with a bit of hacking of the dies?
[00:15:02] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, your the lovely lady from #avr originally.
[00:15:11] <K`zan> LOL, that too :-).
[00:15:27] <A-L-P-H-A> I have a pipe bender.
[00:15:35] <A-L-P-H-A> but it does small radiuses.
[00:15:41] <K`zan> mod the dies?
[00:15:43] <K`zan> ah
[00:15:59] <A-L-P-H-A> I want like 1 or 2 ft radiuses...
[00:16:01] <K`zan> HF has some stuff that probably could be hacked.
[00:16:08] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm in Canuckia.
[00:16:20] <K`zan> radii are not easy
[00:16:37] <K`zan> I learned how trivial 1/8" bar was a while ago :).
[00:16:38] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm. sec.
[00:17:44] <K`zan> Got a HF micro-mill working and a Cummins 7x10 mini-lathe since I was last here :-).
[00:18:15] <K`zan> Sure makes a LOT of things I was trying to do a lot easier, but I still need more tooling (don't think that ever ends :-).
[00:18:38] <A-L-P-H-A> http://74.118.149.89/drawboard
[00:18:39] <fenn> an orbital ring roller?
[00:18:50] <K`zan> Going with the CNC Fusion mounts and the Xlyotex 269 oz in ready system.
[00:19:00] <A-L-P-H-A> the red circles are rollers... the cyan is supposed to be a bar.
[00:19:13] <A-L-P-H-A> the rollers should be on bearings...
[00:19:15] <fenn> what are you making alpha?
[00:19:34] <A-L-P-H-A> and the middle roller should would be applying pressure on the bar.
[00:19:51] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, bar bender, but for large radius
[00:20:04] <fenn> no, i mean, what are the large circles for?
[00:20:07] <A-L-P-H-A> something like that... for a chair. http://www.contemporaryfurniture.com/Catalog/Products/product_00002383_28.asp
[00:20:25] <K`zan> not running here :-(, but the same idea of a pipe bender should work. You got a custom motorcycle shop nearby?
[00:20:53] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, probably... but it's probably ran by hells angels, so I'll stay clear of it.
[00:21:08] <K`zan> Ahh, they can be good folks sometimes :;-)
[00:21:19] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, so... where ya been?
[00:21:27] <A-L-P-H-A> you were mia for a long long time. :)
[00:21:39] <K`zan> Spending money on things to make chips :) and learning how to use them again :-).
[00:21:40] <fenn> harbor freight has one for $57
[00:21:56] <K`zan> Yeah, been busy as hell getting all this together.
[00:21:56] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, you're kidding me... got a part number or url?
[00:22:04] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, what'd you make/buy?
[00:22:07] <fenn> oh it only goes up to 1/4" round
[00:22:33] <K`zan> http://da.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=bender&Submit=Go
[00:23:06] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/
[00:23:11] <fenn> A-L-P-H-A: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36790
[00:23:31] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, you are Vikki!?
[00:23:39] <K`zan> Yes, that is me
[00:24:00] <SWPadnos> hard to tell from your username ;)
[00:24:02] <A-L-P-H-A> no, seriously... that's you?
[00:24:02] <K`zan> When I was last here all I had was the gantry router project that is now all the way at the bottom :-).
[00:24:16] <K`zan> It keeps the HNGs at bay :-)
[00:24:33] <SWPadnos> Hairy No-Goods?
[00:24:43] <A-L-P-H-A> nonono... when I first got started I thought I was reading your how-tos, and learning from some of your projects.
[00:24:44] <K`zan> Horny Net Geeks :-)
[00:24:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:24:48] <A-L-P-H-A> or would that be another Vikki?
[00:25:08] <K`zan> That is the other Vikki, the one in England.
[00:25:09] <SWPadnos> well, any femme that's also an AVR pro has my vote :)
[00:25:25] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, oooooooooooooooh okay.
[00:25:38] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, you confuzzled me.
[00:25:38] <K`zan> Pro? Dunno about that, but I sure get my feet wet, or will again once I get the machine shop together :-) LOL
[00:25:51] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan is a tomboy. :)
[00:25:54] <SWPadnos> heh. well, if you need any pointers, just ask ;)
[00:26:01] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos is a guru.
[00:26:08] <fenn> 0xF87AE32
[00:26:10] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu isn't bad either. :) but he's never around much.
[00:26:31] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: I guess, I just have fun playing with interesting things and making metal do what you need is MAGIC!
[00:26:43] <SWPadnos> it sure is uber-cool
[00:27:08] <K`zan> Good, perhaps he can tell me why my project runs fine on an M16 or M32 but won't work on a T13 :-)?
[00:27:32] <SWPadnos> not enough stack on the tinys
[00:27:34] <K`zan> I think I have more stack usage than the T13 can handle.
[00:27:36] <K`zan> LOL
[00:27:40] <K`zan> GMTA
[00:27:53] <fenn> why wont my tiny26 blink the led?!!
[00:28:03] <SWPadnos> you need to program it first
[00:28:28] <K`zan> I think I am going to move the project to M84 and see what happens, lots of wasted resources but apparently I need the RAM.
[00:28:57] <K`zan> I'm sure I can think of something else to do with all those spare pins and flash :-).
[00:29:17] <SWPadnos> programs rarely shrink. extra space is usually a good thing
[00:29:52] <K`zan> Yep, that is why I ordered a couple M64s :-). My Anamatronics controller got elegant enough to challenge a M32.
[00:29:55] <A-L-P-H-A> I need a good library...
[00:30:03] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, I STILL haven't made that tachometer... hahahaha
[00:30:08] <A-L-P-H-A> it's been like 1.5 years.
[00:30:09] <SWPadnos> wuss
[00:30:13] <K`zan> Protoing SMT stuff is a bit of a problem unless one has deep oickets.
[00:30:18] <K`zan> pockets
[00:30:26] <K`zan> Library for what ?
[00:30:29] <SWPadnos> or a steady hand
[00:30:56] <fenn> or a laser printer and a clothes iron
[00:30:56] <A-L-P-H-A> asm library.
[00:30:58] <SWPadnos> I got a relatively nice pace station on eBay for $100 or so, and I can do fine pitch SMT just fine
[00:31:01] <SWPadnos> BGA is another story
[00:31:04] <A-L-P-H-A> otherwise I should just learn avr-C.
[00:31:11] <A-L-P-H-A> I know C already... so I don't know exactly why I don't.
[00:31:21] <A-L-P-H-A> other than AVRasm is just pure logic to me.
[00:31:22] <K`zan> That is the easy part, the PCBs are a bit more difficult to do, the SMT soldering is trivial to me now, even as blind as I am.
[00:31:29] <SWPadnos> I know - why not install avr-gcc, and don't bother learning a new "language"
[00:31:42] <K`zan> There is always BASCOM, the BASCOMP does run under wine.
[00:31:54] <fenn> yuck
[00:32:09] <K`zan> BASCOM is about the only windoz app I have any respect for.
[00:32:12] <SWPadnos> sorry - I would have said that, but I was throwing up
[00:32:34] <K`zan> Mark has sure done a good job, it would be nice if my constant nagging results in a Linux version :-)
[00:32:50] <fenn> i honestly dont know what people see in basic
[00:33:08] <SWPadnos> I think people like the B
[00:33:10] <K`zan> ANYONE can make an AVR work with BASCOM. It is stone simple and far too aluring as it is so easy.
[00:33:21] <fenn> if it werent for some horrible institution pounding it into their heads at a young age, nobody would know basic
[00:33:29] <K`zan> Wish all m$ programmers did the same quality of work.
[00:33:54] <K`zan> Unfortunately it runs on top of crap :-(.
[00:34:26] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't know basic.
[00:34:27] <SWPadnos> for microcontroller work, I really don't like having anything between me and the hardware
[00:34:32] <A-L-P-H-A> never learned it... never had to.
[00:34:35] <SWPadnos> it usually screws up whatever I'm trying to do
[00:34:39] <K`zan> BASCOM just insulates users from the "hard stuff".
[00:34:47] <A-L-P-H-A> I learned pascal, then C, then delphi (OOP), then C++, PHP.
[00:35:03] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... after C, there as ASM 8086.
[00:35:13] <K`zan> :-) masochist :-)
[00:35:21] <SWPadnos> having libraries or configurators so you don't have to write the memory clearing, peripheral setup, and those kinds of things are fine
[00:35:28] <K`zan> anything on x86 is masochism :-)
[00:35:46] <SWPadnos> x86 was designed by the Marquis de Sade
[00:35:56] <K`zan> SWPadnos: that is the BIG benefit of BASCOM, it takes care of all that kind of stuff.
[00:36:25] <A-L-P-H-A> you had no clue how difficult it was for me to learn x86... as I didn't show up to class.
[00:36:30] <SWPadnos> but I generally write in assembler anyway
[00:36:37] <A-L-P-H-A> my girlfriends from the class taught me...
[00:36:48] <A-L-P-H-A> and surprisingly they were the more attractive girls in comp sci.
[00:36:49] <K`zan> You can concentrate on the task rather than learning the language basics and having to re-invent the wheel, although AVRLIB certainly helps with that.
[00:36:57] <SWPadnos> I have one project with over 800k of ASM source - that one's about due for a C overhaul ;)
[00:37:11] <K`zan> Love assembler, but rarely have the time and constantly feel guilty about that :).
[00:37:52] <K`zan> Las time I did assembler with gusto was on motorola uCs.
[00:38:25] <K`zan> Just wondering if anyone is using the Xlyotex driver and steppers?
[00:38:33] <SWPadnos> as long as it isn't their DSps, they're tolerable
[00:38:49] <SWPadnos> not here. Jymmm uses it, I think
[00:39:02] <K`zan> Motorola, yeah true, looked at them but never messed with the DSPs.
[00:39:06] <K`zan> long time ago now.
[00:39:11] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't think Jymmm choose to use them, I think they came with his machine.
[00:39:16] <A-L-P-H-A> a lot of us are using geckos.
[00:39:17] <K`zan> I'll ask him when I catch him.
[00:39:18] <SWPadnos> 56F8xx are a PITA
[00:39:24] <K`zan> Richos ;-)
[00:39:26] <Jymmm> No, I bought them seperately
[00:39:34] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, why not the geckos then?
[00:39:55] <Jymmm> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[00:40:10] <K`zan> If I thought the 200 oz.in. steppers would drive the mill, I would consider it, MUCH cheaper.
[00:40:25] <A-L-P-H-A> well...
[00:40:28] <A-L-P-H-A> here's the situation...
[00:40:30] <Jymmm> K`zan how big is the mill?
[00:40:36] <K`zan> HF micro-mill
[00:40:45] <A-L-P-H-A> if you had to buy NEW everything... getting an AC stepper or AC servo with controller would be a sinch...
[00:40:52] <Jymmm> K`zan do you plan on doing anything precision?
[00:41:00] <A-L-P-H-A> Oriental Motors has decent prices on new stuff.
[00:41:10] <K`zan> Not real precision, that thing is NOT a bridgeport :).
[00:41:13] <A-L-P-H-A> and they just plug into a 120V 60hz socket.
[00:41:30] <K`zan> +/- a mile on that :)
[00:41:32] <A-L-P-H-A> I sawpped over to rolled ballscrews from www.roton.com
[00:41:46] <A-L-P-H-A> I think I have the same toy. http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/Tools/PicoLathe(RPT)/
[00:41:48] <Jymmm> K`zan the problem I have is stalling
[00:41:56] <A-L-P-H-A> actually I do... it's never been opened.
[00:42:10] <K`zan> Jymmm: What value steppers are you using?
[00:42:16] <Jymmm> K`zan if I knew then what I know now, I would have bought geckos
[00:42:21] <Jymmm> 269 in oz
[00:42:36] <Jymmm> 30vdc @ 3a
[00:42:39] <A-L-P-H-A> hehe... I bought geckos... I think I bought like 75 of them...
[00:42:45] <K`zan> Jymmm: if I could afford geckos, it would be another year or two before I could do that.
[00:42:57] <A-L-P-H-A> 75 G201 R1.
[00:43:02] <A-L-P-H-A> resold like 70 of them.
[00:43:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I made some GOOD money.
[00:43:13] <K`zan> As it is the $420 is going to be a big enough burden...
[00:43:20] <Jymmm> K`zan Since you aren't doing precision, they'll do fine.
[00:43:37] <K`zan> Jymmm: define "precision" please?
[00:44:10] <K`zan> With what I have manually, I can hold very reasonable tolerances if I go slow.
[00:44:24] <Jymmm> K`zan +-.01"
[00:44:39] <Jymmm> with china mill you can?
[00:44:57] <K`zan> Should easily be able to get 0.005 from what I gather or better with some effort and TIGHT gibs.
[00:45:25] <K`zan> Jymmm: According to my measuring tools, yes.
[00:45:43] <K`zan> but I'm not feeding at 60 IPS or better either.
[00:45:52] <A-L-P-H-A> can an end mill mill wood?
[00:45:53] <K`zan> More like 6 :-).
[00:46:04] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A yes
[00:46:06] <A-L-P-H-A> pine?
[00:46:12] <K`zan> Should be able to, I don't see why not.
[00:46:18] <K`zan> Try it an see
[00:46:20] <Jymmm> wait, nfc, I use CMT router bits for wood
[00:46:21] <A-L-P-H-A> true.
[00:46:39] <A-L-P-H-A> I was thinking of making joints for my cabinet doors.
[00:46:52] <K`zan> by table protector (1/4" ply) seems to mill quite nicely :).
[00:47:00] <Jymmm> just remember you'll get tar/pitch on the mill
[00:47:02] <K`zan> s/by/my/
[00:47:20] <K`zan> Isn't that what acetone is for?
[00:47:38] <Jymmm> K`zan before or after it gets dull?
[00:47:56] <K`zan> Still in shock here, ordered about $150 worth of tooling today :).
[00:48:08] <K`zan> the end mill?
[00:48:11] <Jymmm> how many pieces?
[00:48:12] <A-L-P-H-A> OMG.
[00:48:16] <A-L-P-H-A> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/CNC/GantryRouterProject/CNC-Router-Mechanicals/Base/v200512180023-002.jpg hand saw mitre?
[00:48:47] <K`zan> Dunno, not doing enough ATM to dull one :-/, but that will change starting tomorrow when I pick up all my stock from online metals.
[00:49:03] <A-L-P-H-A> onlinemetals.com??
[00:49:06] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: Desperation at the time, it was what I had.
[00:49:09] <A-L-P-H-A> eewie. they're sooo expensive.
[00:49:10] <Jymmm> K`zan how many cutting tools did you buy?
[00:49:13] <K`zan> Yes, right down the street.
[00:49:32] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, you live near onlinemetals.com? the warehouse?
[00:49:51] <K`zan> Got a 3/8 and 1/4" aluminum cutting end mills, but have a bunch I got from boeing surplus a few years back.
[00:49:59] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: Yes, about 3-4 miles from here.
[00:50:07] <A-L-P-H-A> why can't I be seattle?
[00:50:26] <K`zan> THank god you aren't in this socialist shithole :-).
[00:50:44] <K`zan> Quick errand bbiaf...
[00:54:01] <A-L-P-H-A> freak'n scary.... I tried to use a hand saw... to cut plastic... I just gave up instead.
[00:54:25] <A-L-P-H-A> I think I'll jus tuse a saw on a dremel.
[00:56:20] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A how thick? what kind of plastic?
[00:57:17] <A-L-P-H-A> I have no clue what kind of plastic... it's not soft, it's hard... but not brittle either.
[00:57:38] <A-L-P-H-A> it was part of the packaging to hold my wrenches, and I'm sick of how much space it takes up.
[00:57:40] <Jymmm> ok, how big? thick is it
[00:57:56] <Jymmm> ah, pvc or pp
[00:58:27] <A-L-P-H-A> it's like 2mm thick... but the saw maybe dull, dunno. and tyle of plastic, no clue.
[00:58:33] <Jymmm> you can use a table saw or one of these if you ever come across one... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46379
[00:58:34] <tomp> what did you see happen when you tried to cut it ( what made you give up? gummy cracking?... ?)
[00:59:24] <A-L-P-H-A> it was just tiny shreds of it... with no real progress to speak of
[00:59:37] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A got a table saw?
[00:59:42] <A-L-P-H-A> so it wasn't like butter... so it wasn't the right tool.
[00:59:50] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, I was gonna put it into the radial arm saw.
[00:59:59] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A that work
[01:00:09] <Jymmm> or compound miter saw
[01:00:17] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll do it tomorrow and take some sand paper to the edges.
[01:00:31] <K`zan> Back
[01:00:40] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A oh hell no, just use the edge of a box knife/razor blade and scrap it
[01:00:42] <A-L-P-H-A> what did you use to weld the bars?
[01:00:50] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, ahhh!
[01:00:52] <A-L-P-H-A> better idea.
[01:00:58] <A-L-P-H-A> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/CNC/GantryRouterProject/CNC-Router-Mechanicals/Base/v200512180023-006.jpg
[01:01:11] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: Hehe, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail :)
[01:01:50] <K`zan> Maybe now, I can look at that again, but at the time I just did not have the resources to do it without worrying about burning the place down.
[01:02:01] <A-L-P-H-A> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/Tools/ShinyThings-032206/v200603221540-007.jpg air brushing kit?
[01:02:37] <K`zan> Mostly for pumping up tires, but it can do light duty other things.
[01:03:09] <K`zan> Here the places was a quarter for about a minute of air and most of them seem to be broken, got tired of running with tires that needed air...
[01:03:17] <K`zan> was /want
[01:03:44] <K`zan> Was about $30 from the local auto parts store.
[01:03:46] <A-L-P-H-A> I need a new dove tail cutter... :(
[01:04:10] <K`zan> actually cheaper than the crappo plug it in the cigarette lighter ones and did a MUCH better job too.
[01:04:33] <K`zan> I just got one, I hope it is the right one - going to make some tool holders for the QCTP.
[01:04:35] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, but not as convenient. :) I have a that and a medium sized tank compressor.
[01:04:46] <A-L-P-H-A> I had a tinny one like that... sold it for $125 CDN.
[01:04:52] <A-L-P-H-A> I was pretty happy selling it.
[01:04:57] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: Spending money here as fast as I can to get to usable tooling :).
[01:05:05] <K`zan> and getting by in the process...
[01:05:18] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to figure out something to make that's highly profitable.
[01:05:50] <K`zan> I may be able to sell those tool holders, LMS wants $15 each and I wasn't real impressed with the quality.
[01:05:54] <A-L-P-H-A> I used to be able to get away with 20 minutes machine time, $0.75 materials, + consumables + electricity, and sell the item for $30USD.
[01:06:09] <A-L-P-H-A> that would have been $50CDN.... at the time... when the exchange was awesome.
[01:06:28] <K`zan> Looking at Anodizing as well, outside of the nasty chemicals, it isn't difficult to do at home.
[01:06:45] <A-L-P-H-A> real anodizing, or coloring?
[01:07:00] <K`zan> color anodizing...
[01:07:03] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[01:07:12] <K`zan> lemme find one of my links..
[01:07:39] <K`zan> http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/anodize.shtml
[01:07:51] <K`zan> Got several that say about the same thing.
[01:08:15] <A-L-P-H-A> you either don't have kids, or your kids have grown up.
[01:08:29] <K`zan> No kids, shudder NONE...
[01:08:40] <K`zan> * K`zan selfish :).
[01:08:41] <A-L-P-H-A> kids are great... as long as they aren't mine.
[01:08:58] <K`zan> Yep, love other people's kids, especially when they go home :).
[01:09:02] <A-L-P-H-A> exGF scared me so much... when she was late.
[01:09:14] <K`zan> That is what you get for screwing around :)
[01:09:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm young, I'm male, I'm not bad looking... I have hormones!
[01:09:55] <A-L-P-H-A> I think I setup a date for friday while you were gone doing your thing too... hahaha.
[01:09:59] <K`zan> Yep, inevitably a problem for all involved ;-) LOL
[01:10:12] <A-L-P-H-A> she choose the day... she just has to find out if she can get the car.
[01:10:21] <K`zan> Sigh, what people will do just for some friction...
[01:10:35] <A-L-P-H-A> that's why there's lube... reduced friction. ;)
[01:10:38] <K`zan> And spend the rest of their time trying to eliminate it from everywhere else LOL!
[01:10:53] <K`zan> Incorragable...
[01:12:47] <K`zan> I can't wait for all the goodies to come it, especially that toolmakers vice.
[01:12:58] <A-L-P-H-A> how about a bandsaw? :)
[01:13:11] <K`zan> Desperately need one, but have no place to put one :-(.
[01:13:17] <A-L-P-H-A> shibby.
[01:13:19] <K`zan> Got this as a workaround for now:
[01:14:11] <K`zan> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42307
[01:14:28] <K`zan> Everything else gets butchered with the reciprocating saw.
[01:14:33] <K`zan> Literally.
[01:14:48] <A-L-P-H-A> whoa... ALL this is inside an apartment??
[01:14:57] <K`zan> The recip saw seemed like a good idea at the time.
[01:14:58] <K`zan> Yes
[01:15:23] <K`zan> Hopefully moving out of here by early next year, just trying to figure out where to go.
[01:15:27] <A-L-P-H-A> umm... made depth cut is only 3/4"...
[01:15:55] <K`zan> Yep, covers a lot of what I need to do, but not everything and a hacksaw or recip saw sucks big time.
[01:15:56] <A-L-P-H-A> well... if you're young, single, and attractive... I got an opening I know about. :)
[01:16:29] <K`zan> Not young, will STAY single and too old to be attractive in the standard media definition anymore.
[01:16:38] <K`zan> But thanks for the thought :).
[01:17:44] <K`zan> Besides, I am in love with my tools :-).
[01:17:57] <A-L-P-H-A> I got more. :)
[01:18:25] <K`zan> If I can cut steel with it, come on over :)
[01:18:46] <SWPadnos> how about a Bridgeport and a Johnson bandsaw? ;)
[01:18:48] <A-L-P-H-A> you can come over here instead... I'm only practically on the other side of the continent.
[01:18:56] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, you're married.
[01:19:02] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm telling your wife
[01:19:11] <SWPadnos> yeah, and I'm even further away (and those tools are *heavy*)
[01:19:21] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[01:19:28] <K`zan> SWPadnos: my neigbors all the way to the basement would hate me if I got the former :)
[01:19:31] <A-L-P-H-A> not sure about that... I think we're about the same distance away from her.
[01:19:34] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm in Toronto.
[01:19:56] <SWPadnos> I'm in Vermont, so I've got an extra few hundred miles on you
[01:19:57] <K`zan> As noted almost out of space, it is why I am holding off on the expanded tables for the mill - no place to put it if I did.
[01:20:17] <K`zan> Ah, I seem to know several people in Toronto.
[01:20:24] <K`zan> But I wouldn't want to go there :).
[01:20:47] <SWPadnos> there's a good oyster place there
[01:20:48] <K`zan> One of my AVR friends just moved back there.
[01:21:00] <SWPadnos> and good breakfast (if Duncan still has his cafe)
[01:21:10] <K`zan> Strangely, there are no good (reasonable) seafood places here in seattle :-(.
[01:21:20] <SWPadnos> try the Dahlia Lounge
[01:21:25] <SWPadnos> (405 Olive Way)
[01:21:30] <A-L-P-H-A> I've never heard of 'buffalo tools'
[01:21:33] <K`zan> Seattle?
[01:21:36] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:21:39] <K`zan> Not if I have to go downtown.
[01:21:50] <SWPadnos> well, Olive way is downtown, so ...
[01:22:06] <K`zan> or anywhere near it, online metals almost got to send the stuff UPS, but...
[01:22:29] <K`zan> They are the extreme outter limit of my range in that direction.
[01:22:40] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan? 4miles?
[01:22:41] <SWPadnos> are you in one of the suburbs?
[01:22:47] <A-L-P-H-A> stixs.
[01:22:52] <K`zan> Tired of the homeless hassling you, cops ignoring the crims and expensive parking.
[01:22:58] <K`zan> Up near Northgate.
[01:23:01] <K`zan> Mall
[01:23:13] <SWPadnos> hmmm. it's been a while since I've been in town (like 10 years or so)
[01:23:34] <SWPadnos> a friend from college used to live on the east side, near lake Washington (?)
[01:23:37] <K`zan> It has turned into a first class 3rd world country, when I got here about 10 years ago, it was a LOT different.
[01:24:12] <A-L-P-H-A> lovely...
[01:24:15] <K`zan> political corruption makes chicago look totally honest and ethical.
[01:24:16] <SWPadnos> bummer
[01:24:20] <A-L-P-H-A> everyone rich and smart went richmond.
[01:24:34] <SWPadnos> it was a nice place the last few times I was there
[01:24:37] <K`zan> Yep, you can get a shack over there for 3-4 mil..
[01:24:49] <K`zan> Nice place to visit briefly, living here sucks.
[01:25:06] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd probably live in Victoria instead.
[01:25:12] <A-L-P-H-A> Or Vancouver.
[01:25:15] <A-L-P-H-A> screw USA.
[01:25:17] <K`zan> seattle worships $$$ to a fault.
[01:25:37] <K`zan> and will screw anyone to get it, at least chicago understands the concept of payola :-).
[01:26:18] <K`zan> Even Atlanta wasn't even close to this bad.
[01:26:46] <K`zan> Want to move to the reddest area I can find :).
[01:26:56] <SWPadnos> eeewww
[01:27:20] <K`zan> Living here got old hippy and being a democrat out of my system once and for all.
[01:28:45] <A-L-P-H-A> you're a REPLUBICAN!?!?!
[01:28:49] <A-L-P-H-A> and you admit it.
[01:28:54] <A-L-P-H-A> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh the shame.
[01:29:03] <A-L-P-H-A> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :'(
[01:29:12] <K`zan> Nope, but until the dems can field anyone who isn;t suicidal, they are off my list :-).
[01:29:28] <SWPadnos> at least it would be suicide, instead of murder ...
[01:29:43] <K`zan> Personally, given those options I opt for murder :).
[01:29:46] <A-L-P-H-A> field? in you area?
[01:29:57] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, how about euthanasia?
[01:30:10] <K`zan> Only for dimocrats :).
[01:30:44] <K`zan> Time to go make dinner, tempted to order in, I'm lazy today.
[01:31:47] <A-L-P-H-A> just today?
[01:32:05] <K`zan> A-L-P-H-A: also getting a lot of books and video on the subject lately. You heard of technicalvideorental.com? Might be a bit basic for you, dunno, but those have helped me get moving again.
[01:32:19] <K`zan> Well, at this time of day today, it comes and goes :-).
[01:34:22] <K`zan> FOOD, bbiab
[01:37:15] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[01:37:56] <K`zan> Ordered oriental, something there are a lot of good places for here :-).
[01:38:07] <K`zan> * K`zan really is lazy :).
[01:38:33] <K`zan> I'm really looking forward to getting going on the tool holders :).
[01:39:04] <K`zan> Got to read through the EMC manual again, emc2 is now the default, cool.
[01:39:28] <K`zan> Just need to figure out what to do about CAD, QCad is only 2D.
[01:40:18] <K`zan> Hate to have to run wondoz for that, but unless I find something for Linux, it looks like I'll end up doing that.
[01:40:37] <K`zan> Maybe my old ACAD13 will run under wine :-/.
[01:41:11] <K`zan> Wonder what everyone here uses or whether you just write gcode?
[01:41:45] <fenn> K`zan: these are the options available on linux: http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html
[01:42:05] <fenn> i wasnt able to find anything that output gcode that actually worked
[01:42:21] <fenn> cad is pretty slim pickings right now
[01:42:37] <K`zan> fenn: Thanks, will check that out.
[01:42:49] <K`zan> Acad tries to come up under wine, but didn't make it.
[01:44:01] <K`zan> Yeah, it did...
[01:44:18] <K`zan> Now if I can remember where I put those zip disks with my registration on them.
[01:44:44] <K`zan> I got too damn many CDs.
[01:46:47] <jmkasunich2> hi all
[01:47:12] <K`zan> Good evening (here :-) jmkasunich
[01:47:24] <jmkasunich2> here too
[01:47:33] <jmkasunich2> just about 10 pm
[01:47:44] <K`zan> almost 7PM here
[01:47:50] <SWPadnos> where are you this week, jmk?
[01:48:05] <K`zan> I would have sworn I put that damn registration with the archives, grrrr.
[01:53:44] <K`zan> Sigh, off to root through the piles of CDs. bbl
[01:53:56] <SWPadnos> good luck ;)
[01:59:00] <jmkasunich2> out west eh?
[01:59:23] <SWPadnos> K`zan is near Seattle
[01:59:48] <jmkasunich2> SWPadnos, about an hour west of Toronto
[02:00:00] <jmkasunich2> saw some neat CNC to day
[02:00:06] <SWPadnos> Ah. In MI or Canada?
[02:00:12] <jmkasunich2> canada
[02:00:39] <SWPadnos> OK. I think I drove through there on the way home from Wisconsin ;) Hamilton or something like that?
[02:00:52] <jmkasunich2> cambridge
[02:01:06] <SWPadnos> ok. the other big-ish town between Detroit and Toronto ;)
[02:01:10] <SWPadnos> what kind of CNC?
[02:01:22] <jmkasunich2> completely automated sheet metal line
[02:01:36] <jmkasunich2> 4' x 8' sheets in one end, parts out the other
[02:01:39] <SWPadnos> cut / punch / bend ... ?
[02:01:57] <jmkasunich2> punch and cut on the same machine, then bend
[02:02:00] <SWPadnos> cool
[02:02:16] <jmkasunich2> with handling in between to flip sheets over, and for temporary storage
[02:02:29] <jmkasunich2> the really neat part is the high level control
[02:02:37] <A-L-P-H-A> hehe... I'm still happy about this... $349CDN printer (canon mp 530) @ bestbuy. Staples = $279CDN. Staples instant rebate, $50. Canon MIR, $30. sweet.
[02:02:52] <A-L-P-H-A> $349 printer, for $200. :)
[02:02:53] <jmkasunich2> the system looks a the next three days production requirements, and nests stuff to fit the sheets
[02:03:02] <SWPadnos> very cool
[02:03:22] <jmkasunich2> the bending machine has configurable tooling, and can configure on a part by part basis
[02:03:45] <SWPadnos> is it a brake or a four-slide machine (or both)?
[02:04:00] <jmkasunich2> sort of a brake
[02:04:26] <jmkasunich2> instead of the usual V tooling where both sides of the sheet move, it uses wipe tooling
[02:04:45] <jmkasunich2> the main body of the sheet remains flat, and the tool "wipes" up (or down) to make a 90 degree bend
[02:05:14] <SWPadnos> hmm - more like a forming die then
[02:05:16] <jmkasunich2> it can do an up, then infeed another inch and do a down, to make a Z bend
[02:05:36] <jmkasunich2> or several ups in a row to make a rolled edge (more like a box)
[02:05:55] <jmkasunich2> it works on one edge of the sheet, then spins the entire part for the next edge
[02:08:03] <jmkasunich2> you know how the male bending die needs to match the length of the part if you are making a four sided part like a tray or pan?
[02:08:21] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I guess so (I only know of the machines, not really how they work)
[02:08:42] <jmkasunich2> imagine you are making a 12" square tray with 2" high sides
[02:09:03] <jmkasunich2> you can bend two opposite sides with a brake of any length
[02:09:22] <SWPadnos> ah -right
[02:09:26] <jmkasunich2> but once you have a shallow U, you can't bend up the other two edges unless the tool can fit inside
[02:09:44] <jmkasunich2> this machine has the male tooling in narrow chunks that can slide around
[02:09:46] <SWPadnos> at least half the tools need to match the part size
[02:10:06] <jmkasunich2> and other special ones for dealing with stuff more complex that just trays
[02:10:33] <jmkasunich2> for each part, it moves the narrow chunks around, and inserts/removes the special stuff as needed
[02:11:17] <SWPadnos> it sounds more like computer plant management than just CNC
[02:11:29] <jmkasunich2> imagine that 12" square x 2" high tray, with a return on the top lip, facing either in or out
[02:11:35] <jmkasunich2> thats what the special tools are needed for
[02:11:38] <jmkasunich2> yeah, it is
[02:11:44] <jmkasunich2> the entire line is integrated
[02:12:02] <jmkasunich2> the sheet loader knows what gage goes into the punch next
[02:12:10] <jmkasunich2> the punch knows what parts are nested into the sheet
[02:12:45] <jmkasunich2> there are storage areas between punch and bender where punched but unbent parts can be stored for later
[02:13:06] <jmkasunich2> then a flipper that can turn the sheets over (so the burr side is always on the inside of the cabinet)
[02:13:33] <jmkasunich2> and finally the bender (which knows exactly which parts are arriving from the punch or storage area)
[02:14:15] <K`zan> Found it !
[02:14:28] <jmkasunich2> if you need 10 of part A, 5 of part B, and 20 of part C, and you can nest 2A, 1B, and 2C on one sheet, the system will make A,A,B,C,C,A,A,B,C,C, etc
[02:15:50] <SWPadnos> sounds like it works the way it should work (ie, with computers doing the drudgery of figuring out how to efficently get what you want out of the available material)
[02:16:13] <jmkasunich2> yep
[02:16:33] <jmkasunich2> we got our little tour starting from the bender and working upstream
[02:16:44] <jmkasunich2> so it was really freaky to see it doing such tiny lot sizes
[02:16:55] <jmkasunich2> one or two parts of a type, then change to another, then change back
[02:17:16] <jmkasunich2> but the changeover is so quick that it makes perfect sense to do it that way
[02:17:49] <jmkasunich2> once we got to the punch and sheet nesting stuff it made perfect sense
[02:18:20] <jmkasunich2> also got to see the paint line (power coat)
[02:19:17] <SWPadnos> sounds like a PC case manufacturer or the like
[02:19:39] <jmkasunich2> they can run multiple colors on one line - there are multiple booths in parallel, and to switch colors they just leave some empty space on the conveyor, to allow time for the dust in the booth that is shutting down to settle
[02:19:52] <jmkasunich2> think bigger
[02:19:59] <jmkasunich2> electrical switchgear
[02:20:02] <SWPadnos> cool - like the oil pipelines ;)
[02:20:27] <jmkasunich2> cabinets are 72 to 90 inches tall, 16 to 48 inches wide, and 16 to 24 deep
[02:20:48] <skunkworks> can it do knockouts?
[02:20:50] <jmkasunich2> most of the metal is 16, 14, or 12 gage
[02:20:50] <SWPadnos> plus all the little doohickey sthat go inside (and latches, feet, etc)
[02:21:30] <jmkasunich2> the really little stuff comes from elsewhere
[02:21:51] <jmkasunich2> this is mostly sides, tops, bottoms, and internal structures
[02:22:23] <jmkasunich2> its motor control center stuff, not residential breaker box stuff
[02:23:46] <SWPadnos> sounds like a neat tour
[02:23:57] <SWPadnos> man - I've gotta hit the sack. this cold is killing me
[02:23:59] <SWPadnos> good night
[02:24:13] <jmkasunich2> goodnight
[02:25:37] <skunkworks> night
[02:50:07] <A-L-P-H-A> okay!
[02:50:09] <A-L-P-H-A> figured it out!
[02:50:14] <A-L-P-H-A> how to make the bar bender.
[02:50:25] <K`zan> Cool! Congrats!
[02:50:38] <A-L-P-H-A> I could scan it, and put it up... which is probably what I'll go do.
[02:51:51] <A-L-P-H-A> scanner = good
[02:52:16] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_ppmc.c: added threading support, added PPMC board set support
[02:55:21] <K`zan> :) true
[02:57:00] <A-L-P-H-A> http://74.118.149.89/pipe-bender-idea.png there's grooves to hold bar with a roller bearing. There's a bottle jack to apply pressure. And a large wheel to feed the bar (bar to be bend)
[02:58:16] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc.ini: add new file for PPMC
[02:59:24] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/emc.nml: add default file for PPMC
[03:00:28] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc_io.hal: add new file for PPMC
[03:01:18] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc_load.hal: add new file for PPMC
[03:02:57] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc_motion.hal: add new file for PPMC
[03:03:34] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc_servo.hal: add new file for PPMC
[03:04:22] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc.tbl: add default file for PPMC
[03:04:39] <A-L-P-H-A> probably like four pillers to hold the bottle jack hope the welds hold. :)
[03:04:51] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc.var: add default file for PPMC
[03:05:28] <CIA-8> 03jmelson 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/README: add new README file for PPMC
[03:09:12] <jmkasunich2> jon, jon, jon.... you can cvs add all the files, then commit them all at once
[03:09:20] <jmkasunich2> (of course he won't see this)
[03:09:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I could quote you , and put it to the email list. :) if you wanted.
[03:09:46] <jmkasunich2> thats ok
[03:09:49] <jmkasunich2> ;-)
[03:10:01] <jmkasunich2> you are in Tronto aren't you?
[03:10:04] <jmkasunich2> oops
[03:10:06] <jmkasunich2> Toronto
[03:13:26] <A-L-P-H-A> yup
[03:13:27] <A-L-P-H-A> sup?
[03:13:55] <jmkasunich2> I'm in Cambridge Ont this week, will be in downtown (I think) Toronto on Thursday
[03:13:56] <A-L-P-H-A> love this chair... http://www.contemporaryfurniture.com/Catalog/Products/product_00002383_28.asp?p=b&fin=
[03:14:17] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, cool... what are you doing in town?
[03:14:42] <jmkasunich2> in cambridge for the cursed design for six sigma training
[03:15:04] <jmkasunich2> skipping the class on thursday to look at some drives running the airconditioners in a large building downtown
[03:15:06] <A-L-P-H-A> umm... okay... <eyes glaze over>
[03:15:39] <jmkasunich2> the BCE building? or something like that
[03:15:56] <A-L-P-H-A> Bell Canada Enterprises building.
[03:16:14] <jmkasunich2> is it a pretty big place?
[03:16:46] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich2, okay... if you know for sure what you're doing... give me a shout... we'll go for a beer or two.
[03:17:13] <jmkasunich2> that would be nice, but I'm with my boss, and we're meeting customers at the building
[03:17:25] <jmkasunich2> when we're done he's gonna want to head back to cambridge
[03:17:35] <A-L-P-H-A> oh
[03:21:11] <jmkasunich2> you think _you're_ eyes glaze over? You don't have to listen to it all day
[03:21:25] <jmkasunich2> thank god we're playing hooky Thursday
[03:21:40] <jmkasunich2> oops, _your_ eyes
[03:26:13] <A-L-P-H-A> freak'n love this chair.
[03:26:26] <fenn> whats the rationale behind making design engineers attend a six sigma class?
[03:26:29] <A-L-P-H-A> get a little blue ottoman as well with it...
[03:26:39] <A-L-P-H-A> wth is a six sigma class??
[03:26:44] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.contemporaryfurniture.com/Content/products/600/LR-LR-billie2.jpg
[03:26:51] <A-L-P-H-A> forgot to paste the link.
[03:26:54] <fenn> i thought six sigma was process control by making standard deviations really low
[03:27:04] <fenn> so only 1 in a zillion is defective
[03:27:58] <fenn> though some of the stuff i've read sounds more like religion than engineering
[03:28:18] <jmkasunich2> fenn: or by setting tolerances wide enough that only 1 in a zillion is defective
[03:28:38] <fenn> so what do you learn in these classes exactly?
[03:28:50] <jmkasunich2> and figuring out which tolerances can be widened and which must be narrower
[03:28:55] <jmkasunich2> mostly statistics
[03:29:07] <fenn> oh, well thats good
[03:29:27] <jmkasunich2> religion isn't quite it, although there is probably a little of that
[03:29:52] <jmkasunich2> more like "fashion" for corporation
[03:30:00] <jmkasunich2> this year six-sigma is in style
[03:30:27] <jmkasunich2> in previous years its been "world class" or any number of other fads
[03:30:38] <fenn> "enterprise level"
[03:30:46] <fenn> "value added"
[03:31:16] <jmkasunich2> in many cases I think the goal of these fads is to try to figure out what really good engineers do that makes them really good, then "train" the mediocre (and cheaper) engineers to do the same thing
[03:31:31] <fenn> well, that's pretty dumb
[03:31:51] <jmkasunich2> if corporations could train monkeys to do jobs they'd love it - they want everyone to be interchangable and more important replaceable
[03:32:31] <fenn> if you could train someone to be better than average, everyone would be better than average
[03:32:42] <fenn> even a statistician knows that
[03:32:45] <jmkasunich2> you don't have to be able to do it
[03:33:10] <jmkasunich2> the consultants who sell the fads just need to be able to convince corporate management types that you can do it
[03:33:22] <A-L-P-H-A> no one likes monkeys!!!
[03:33:30] <A-L-P-H-A> especially the banana eating ones.
[03:33:32] <jmkasunich2> coporations love monkeys
[03:33:32] <fenn> i like lemurs, is that close enough?
[03:33:43] <A-L-P-H-A> lemmings... they're cute and stupid.
[03:44:45] <jmkasunich2> bedtime for me, goodnight all
[03:44:55] <fenn> nite nite
[05:44:06] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
[05:44:06] <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
[05:52:46] <K`zan> Night folks
[06:36:56] <anonimasu> fenn: got a clock source for it?
[06:39:10] <anonimasu> morning btw :)
[12:18:41] <skunkworks> So the computer that was reverting to the login screen here at work - has been on logged in at home for 4+ days. Odd
[12:19:17] <skunkworks> only difference I can think of off of the top of my head is here it had static ip address and at home it was set to dhcp
[12:30:27] <skunkworks> wow - 333KB/s for the live cd. fast.
[12:30:34] <SWPadnos> yay
[12:31:00] <skunkworks> That is probably my limitation (3mb)
[12:31:02] <SWPadnos> re: the funky computer - what about UPS/pwer issues
[12:31:12] <SWPadnos> power
[12:31:52] <skunkworks> could be. althought each time it did it - it didn't reboot. seems odd that it would fluxuate just "enough" to restart x
[12:32:20] <SWPadnos> and no software running in either case (or the same set of software)
[12:32:26] <skunkworks> says 31 minutes to download :)
[12:33:53] <skunkworks> just took the computer home and turned it on - hmmm - Here I was running the simaxis out of the samples - at home I actually make directorys in the home directory and copied the ini's and ncfiles.
[12:34:25] <skunkworks> wow I suck at grammer
[12:34:35] <SWPadnos> and spelling ;)
[12:34:41] <skunkworks> who me? :)P
[12:34:59] <skunkworks> did that make sense? Could that be an issue?
[12:35:11] <SWPadnos> it could be, but I don't know exactly how
[12:37:29] <skunkworks> neither do I - but it holds a lot less weight with me.
[12:38:18] <skunkworks> in the back of my head is that there is issues with emc writing to protected directories.
[12:38:46] <SWPadnos> that may be, but it shouldn't take out X
[12:39:48] <Bo^Dick> how many of you use stepper motors rather than servos?
[12:40:24] <skunkworks> Both
[12:40:51] <SWPadnos> I will use servos, as soon as I actually do the conversion on my BP
[12:40:53] <Bo^Dick> which is the best alternative?
[12:41:50] <SWPadnos> it depends on the application
[12:42:15] <SWPadnos> low speed, low overall power systems tend to benefit from steppers (due to lower cost)
[12:42:31] <SWPadnos> for higher speeds or higher total power, servos tend to be better
[12:42:38] <SWPadnos> in between, you need to knw what you're doing ;)
[12:42:40] <SWPadnos> know
[12:42:58] <Bo^Dick> so servomotors are more expensive
[12:43:23] <SWPadnos> generally yes, since you need encoders (and extra cables for them)
[12:43:42] <SWPadnos> you do get additional features with that, such as closed loop positioning
[12:44:28] <Bo^Dick> i've heard that steppers suffers from something called "midband resonance"
[12:44:48] <SWPadnos> yes
[12:45:08] <skunkworks> Bo^Dick: did you ever get your stepper drive togather?
[12:45:11] <SWPadnos> I think the motors are generally inferior, but for small systems the cost savings makes them hard to pass up
[12:45:48] <Bo^Dick> skunkworks, no since i abandoned the idea with carnaugh-charts and stuff and converted to microcontrollers
[12:46:42] <Bo^Dick> it has taken some time to get involved in the µc business and i've also learnt to make my own pcbs
[12:47:19] <skunkworks> Honestly for a hobbiest - what cradek/jepler did running servos and using emc as the pid loop is pretty cool.
[12:47:29] <skunkworks> and cheap
[12:47:59] <Bo^Dick> skunkworks, so you made software for the regulating stuff instead of bying expensive hardware
[12:48:31] <Bo^Dick> thats pretty smart
[12:49:37] <skunkworks> Me - I am working toward that - but on a little bigger scale. Jepler and cradek use the bridge chip to drive the servos. (using emc to output psudo pwm)
[12:50:44] <skunkworks> and reading the encoder back in.
[12:51:13] <SWPadnos> that's the normal mode for EMC
[12:51:19] <SWPadnos> running servos anyway
[12:51:46] <skunkworks> did anyone try the new pwm moduals that jmk worked on?
[12:51:52] <skunkworks> modules
[12:52:11] <skunkworks> that did true pwm and other options?
[12:53:23] <skunkworks> 438MB so far.
[12:53:39] <Bo^Dick> pwm means "pulse width modulation" doesn't it?
[12:53:46] <skunkworks> still over 300MBs
[12:53:53] <skunkworks> Bo^Dick: yes
[12:54:09] <Bo^Dick> so this is the way of driving servos
[12:54:53] <SWPadnos> it's a way to simulate an analog output using a full-on/full-off output
[12:55:37] <Bo^Dick> less pins than an d/a converter uses then
[12:55:53] <SWPadnos> no
[12:56:07] <SWPadnos> though that depends on the connection scheme
[12:56:25] <SWPadnos> consider an LED that you want to control the brightness of
[12:56:46] <SWPadnos> turn it on for 50% of the time, and it'll seem to be on at half brightness
[12:57:11] <SWPadnos> if you flash it quickly enough, the eye misses the flashing, and sees it as a continuous 50%
[12:57:45] <SWPadnos> with a motor, if you want 50% current, you have to turn the power on and off fast enough so that the inductance of the motor smooths out the current spikes
[13:03:30] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: I don't know if I ever mentioned it - but your axis touch screen controller was pretty damn cool.
[13:03:37] <SWPadnos> heh - thanks
[13:03:42] <SWPadnos> $300 or so on eBay
[13:03:48] <skunkworks> nice
[13:04:24] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/ (move-if-change Makefile):
[13:04:24] <CIA-8> make 'manpages' a separate target so it can be requested directly
[13:04:24] <CIA-8> convert manpages into html format
[13:04:24] <CIA-8> generate index.html including links to all manpages
[13:04:24] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/components/Submakefile:
[13:04:24] <CIA-8> make 'manpages' a separate target so it can be requested directly
[13:04:26] <CIA-8> convert manpages into html format
[13:04:30] <CIA-8> generate index.html including links to all manpages
[13:04:32] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/ (index.foot index.tmpl Submakefile):
[13:04:34] <CIA-8> make 'manpages' a separate target so it can be requested directly
[13:04:36] <CIA-8> convert manpages into html format
[13:04:38] <CIA-8> generate index.html including links to all manpages
[13:04:42] <skunkworks> now I have an itch to get back to my servo drive. Time to watch ebay for some big mosfets.
[13:05:22] <anonimasu> :)
[13:05:24] <jepler> skunkworks: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16053
[13:05:35] <jepler> how big do you need?
[13:05:41] <jepler> * jepler wanders off
[13:06:37] <skunkworks> I think we went thru this before - I would like to play with ones that are around 200v and 20-40 amp :) but don't tell jmkasunich.
[13:07:02] <SWPadnos> bzzzzt! no more skunkworks :(
[13:07:37] <skunkworks> oh - don't worry about that. I actually have a degree in electronics if you believe it. :)
[13:07:47] <SWPadnos> me too, almost :)
[13:08:25] <skunkworks> litte rusty but the basics are still there :)
[13:08:32] <SWPadnos> P=IE
[13:08:34] <skunkworks> like "don't touch"
[13:08:42] <SWPadnos> "keep one hand in your pocket"
[13:10:20] <skunkworks> woo hoo - the live cd downloaded.
[13:10:45] <SWPadnos> woo hoo - let's see if it works ;)
[13:11:05] <SWPadnos> you're in Wisconsin or nearby, right>
[13:11:07] <SWPadnos> ?
[13:11:13] <skunkworks> yes - near lacrosse
[13:11:29] <SWPadnos> ok. so about half the distance to the servers than I am
[13:11:48] <skunkworks> where are they?
[13:11:53] <skunkworks> chicago?
[13:12:00] <SWPadnos> California
[13:12:09] <skunkworks> ah - where are you?
[13:12:14] <SWPadnos> Vermont
[13:12:48] <skunkworks> wow - is that where you reside? I thought for some reason you where in some southern state?
[13:13:04] <SWPadnos> nope - the opposite. I've lived here for ~35 year
[13:13:06] <SWPadnos> s
[13:13:19] <skunkworks> must have been confused.
[13:13:32] <skunkworks> I was thinking arazona or there abouts.
[13:13:41] <SWPadnos> nope. too damn hot
[13:14:02] <SWPadnos> of course, Vermont (and Wisconsin) weer too damned hot this year
[13:14:09] <SWPadnos> were, even
[13:14:20] <skunkworks> When ever I hear vermont I think "this old house" for some reason.
[13:14:38] <SWPadnos> heh. I think that's from NH or MA.
[13:15:00] <skunkworks> Actually wasn't too bad.. the bugs where non existant. Lots of porch time.
[13:15:58] <SWPadnos> it was pretty hot here, and we were glad to have AC on our drive(s) across WI
[13:16:13] <skunkworks> maybe because there was always adds for vermont american tools
[13:16:20] <skunkworks> ads
[13:16:25] <SWPadnos> that could do it
[13:17:13] <skunkworks> lots of porch time :) http://www.electronicsam.com/Mvc-799s.jpg
[13:17:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[13:18:02] <skunkworks> it actually has railings and stairs now though.
[13:19:54] <SWPadnos> here's a nice (looking) panel PC: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290030949041
[13:21:02] <skunkworks> nice - what card are you planing on using for your mill?
[13:21:23] <skunkworks> the fpga one? don't remember the name m..
[13:21:36] <SWPadnos> dunno. I have a MESA and a Pico USC (and a G-Rex, which won't work)
[13:21:40] <SWPadnos> the Mesa?
[13:21:44] <skunkworks> yah
[13:22:08] <skunkworks> g-rex - was that the mext controller from gecko?
[13:22:12] <SWPadnos> I may use that, if there's a step/dir config before I'm done with the retrofit
[13:22:14] <SWPadnos> yes
[13:23:13] <SWPadnos> cool - that PC has a "digital I/O connector, with 16 bits (in or out)
[13:24:32] <skunkworks> nice. 2 pci slots would probably run anything I needed it to. Well - I wonder if the embeded video plays well with realtime.
[13:24:37] <jepler> is that the other DB25 connector?
[13:24:47] <SWPadnos> good question
[13:24:57] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: you didn't have problems with yours?
[13:25:02] <SWPadnos> nope
[13:25:24] <SWPadnos> the integrated video is a separate chip that includes a 4M framebuffer on-chip
[13:25:50] <SWPadnos> integrated isn't a problm, it's "shared memory" or "unified memory architecture" that kills you
[13:28:18] <jepler> is $500 a fair price for that kind of machine?
[13:28:54] <skunkworks> these 400mhz compaqs I have been playing with have embedded video that seems to work just fine.. But like you said - I think it has its own video memory
[13:31:57] <jepler> "LCD/CRT Controller: Intel I845 GV, AGP 4x"
[13:37:57] <jepler> now with manpages converted to html: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/
[13:58:19] <skunkworks> jepler: cool.
[14:00:10] <SWPadnos> hmmm. does the parport diagram show up for you?
[14:00:32] <SWPadnos> this looks great, except for the big gray blob where that image should be
[14:00:51] <jepler> SWPadnos: some of the images are wrong .. I don't know why
[14:01:06] <SWPadnos> ok. I see that the image size is only 441 bytes, which seems a little small
[14:01:09] <jepler> yeah
[14:01:09] <SWPadnos> nice work though
[14:01:15] <jepler> thank you
[14:10:22] <skunkworks> Does anyone have an issue with me posting the live cd link on the cnczone site?
[14:11:01] <SWPadnos> the only possible problem would be a bunch of people downloading it just because they can, then not using it
[14:11:21] <SWPadnos> there's a very high bandwidth limit on the account, so it's not a big issue anyway
[14:12:06] <skunkworks> so is that a maybe? :)
[14:12:16] <SWPadnos> heh - it shuold be fine.
[14:12:43] <SWPadnos> just remember that the bandwidth limit is roughly 3000 CDs per month ;)
[14:14:01] <cradek> I think there's a fast european mirror too, we should ask alex about it
[14:14:37] <SWPadnos> well, if 300 0people actually download it (in a month), I'd be surprised
[14:14:48] <cradek> true
[14:15:04] <cradek> people don't have the bandwidth to download isos they don't plan to use (quite yet)
[14:15:18] <SWPadnos> some of us do it anyway ;)
[14:15:38] <skunkworks> I could not put a direct link saying - go on over to linuxcnc.org - it would get rid of the people that are too lazy to copy - paste
[14:16:51] <SWPadnos> I was thinking it would be better to link to the homepage, and tell people to use the link on the left side
[14:17:23] <skunkworks> that is what I ment - I just would not make it a link.
[14:17:58] <SWPadnos> linking to the homepage is OK, I just prefer that people actually look at something before blindly downloading large files
[14:18:15] <skunkworks> It is up to you guys. If you think it would be too much of a load - I just thought more people would get excided about it.
[14:18:46] <SWPadnos> nope - not too much of a load I think. just tickling at the back of my mind
[14:18:55] <SWPadnos> I don't think the transfer has gone above 6% ever
[14:34:09] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=198886#post198886
[14:34:22] <skunkworks> did I offend anyone?
[14:35:05] <SWPadnos> probably, but I'm not sure who ;)
[17:06:34] <skunkworks> hey rayh
[17:12:25] <rayh> Hi skunkworks
[17:12:57] <skunkworks> nothing exciting happening here.
[17:13:29] <rayh> not much here either
[17:15:04] <skunkworks> we lead exciting lives - don't we
[17:15:21] <rayh> You bet.
[17:15:38] <bill20r3> * bill20r3 parties down.
[17:17:18] <skunkworks> I keep forgetting to take pictures of the solar collector. Sorry
[17:18:00] <bill20r3> no worries, it's not an emergency
[18:34:51] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to mae a new guitar holder... I screwed up. heh. :( I made the pegs too close together.
[18:36:39] <alex_joni> hi all
[18:38:19] <SWPadnos> hi Alex
[18:38:24] <alex_joni> hi SWPadnos
[18:38:37] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has unlimited download bandwith on his mirror
[18:38:48] <alex_joni> so if it ever gets crowded on DH, we can switch
[18:39:24] <SWPadnos> if the ~7mbits/sec continuous transfer limit is exceeded, I'll let you know ;)
[18:39:40] <alex_joni> :P
[18:40:51] <skunkworks> have to keep us updated if tons more people start downloading the live cd :)
[18:42:05] <rayh> SWPadnos, Is the live cd attracting attention?
[18:42:20] <SWPadnos> dunno yet, I haven't checked the stats
[18:43:04] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has 12 downloads
[18:43:47] <SWPadnos> from your mirror, or DH?
[18:43:51] <alex_joni> so probably about 6 complete onew
[18:43:52] <alex_joni> ones
[18:43:56] <alex_joni> from my mirror
[18:44:09] <cradek> did you put the mirror link on the web site(s)?
[18:44:20] <alex_joni> cradek: no I didn't.. but I should
[18:44:28] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to do that right now
[18:47:27] <skunkworks> 128 mb just isn't enough to run the dapper ck
[18:47:39] <alex_joni> done
[18:47:42] <alex_joni> skunkworks: no
[18:47:53] <alex_joni> but it's enough to run the breezy Live CD
[18:47:53] <cradek> pretty sure they say 256 is required
[18:48:10] <alex_joni> cradek: I managed to install dapper with 128, but it was awfull
[18:48:19] <alex_joni> inside VMWare even
[18:48:23] <alex_joni> but not really usefull
[18:48:32] <alex_joni> s/usefull/useable/
[18:50:30] <alex_joni> cradek: done
[18:53:19] <rayh> Got the disks, Chris. Thanks.
[18:53:30] <cradek> welcome
[18:53:52] <SWPadnos> hmmm. 956 requests for the ISO so far this month, accounting for 91.95% of the total bytes transferred from that domain
[18:54:14] <cradek> holy cow
[18:54:34] <SWPadnos> they didn't all complete though
[18:55:08] <SWPadnos> the cycle estimate for this month (based on 2 days of info) is ~620G this month
[18:55:16] <cradek> I hope people understand it's only useful for a live test and initial install
[18:55:26] <SWPadnos> dunno
[18:55:58] <cradek> if it's a problem, we'll take it down and reevaluate I guess
[18:56:07] <cradek> we could always try using bittorrent or something
[18:57:33] <SWPadnos> interesting - there are also 1000 +/- requests for both Sources.bz2 and Paxkages.gz
[18:57:41] <SWPadnos> Packages, that is
[18:58:12] <SWPadnos> I don't think it'll be an issue at this point, but I'll let you know in a few days if the estimate is significantly higher
[18:58:16] <cradek> apt-get update does that I'm sure
[18:58:26] <SWPadnos> yep
[18:59:15] <skunkworks> 256mb works just fine.
[19:17:47] <skunkworks> pretty slick on the live cd - very easy (I didn't think it could be any easier)
[19:17:54] <skunkworks> nice work
[19:23:29] <rayh> Someone just called and said they thought the iso live used ext2?
[19:24:19] <K`zan> Dunno what they used, I've had very little luck with ubuntu around here, hope it works out better with EMC :-).
[19:24:55] <alex_joni> rayh: iso's don't use ext2
[19:25:23] <K`zan> I would hope for the install that they use at least ext3...
[19:25:25] <alex_joni> they use iso9660
[19:25:32] <alex_joni> K`zan: that is so
[19:25:49] <K`zan> True, not sure what a dvd is, iso9660 maybe.
[19:25:57] <rayh> This is after the install. It says that it installs an ext2
[19:26:08] <alex_joni> rayh: odd..
[19:26:33] <K`zan> alex_joni: Good, ran ext stuff for years with no problems, just recently started using reiser, so far so good :).
[19:27:14] <K`zan> Only problem I ever had was loosing a whole disk when it commited hardware suicide, but that is hardly the fault of ANY filesystem :-) LOL!
[19:27:26] <alex_joni> K`zan: reiser is nice too.. ran it a lot when I ran SuSE
[19:28:15] <K`zan> It seems to finally be ready for prime time :-). I am VERY leery of trusting my data to anything...
[19:28:49] <K`zan> I finally tried SuSe, the 10.1 but the update was hosed so I just stuck with gentoo.
[19:29:37] <K`zan> My next big project is figuring out how to shoehorn a CPU, monitor, keyboard and mouse into the shop area :-). Very space limited in there...
[19:29:54] <alex_joni> K`zan: use a SBC
[19:30:20] <alex_joni> Single Board Computer
[19:30:23] <K`zan> Bit long for a parallel cable and in a different room sounds to me like a VERY ***BAD*** idea.
[19:31:00] <K`zan> Still have the periperals to wedge in :-), the cpu can be shoved anywhere there is a hole (beside the kitty box :-).
[19:31:50] <K`zan> Really need to re-think the arrangement in there - too much crap and not enough space - a real physics problem there LOL!
[19:32:26] <K`zan> Or, how to get 10 lbs of crap in a 2 lb bag kind of thing :).
[19:33:11] <K`zan> Sure glad that isn't a bridgeport :) (no, I'm not, but...) LOL.
[19:33:34] <K`zan> Got to run down to online metals and pick up my order, bbl.
[19:40:50] <fenn> bolt it to the wall or ceiling
[19:52:18] <alex_joni> anyone cares to see "How it's made- Car Engines" ?
[19:52:27] <alex_joni> provided by jymmm a few days ago
[19:52:33] <alex_joni> very sweet CNC stuff ;)
[19:54:09] <rayh> alex_joni, EMC made car engines?
[19:54:22] <alex_joni> rayh: one day maybe ;)
[19:54:32] <rayh> oh okay.
[19:54:50] <alex_joni> this is an full automatic line described by the Discovery Channel
[19:55:03] <alex_joni> but still nice to watch :)
[19:55:59] <rayh> I see.
[19:57:55] <SWPadnos> did you see jmk's description of the electrical enclosure manufacturing plant yesterday?
[19:58:35] <SWPadnos> sheet metal in, finished parts (of various types) out, with fully automatic material handling, sheet metal layouts for best stock usage, etc.
[20:29:04] <fenn> oo i wanna watch tv - sock it to me baby
[20:30:56] <alex_joni> fenn: http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/How%20it%20is%20made%20-%20Car%20Engines%20-%202006-09-11.mpg
[20:33:22] <fenn> wow thats quite a toolchanger on that lathe
[20:33:48] <alex_joni> :D
[20:34:31] <cradek> slowly downloading...
[20:41:20] <fenn> mind if i spread word of the link?
[20:42:55] <alex_joni> fenn: not me
[20:53:36] <skunkworks> and only 2 updates - sweek
[20:53:46] <skunkworks> * skunkworks ment sweet
[20:54:10] <skunkworks> I guess its sweek also.
[20:57:10] <SWPadnos> you meant "meant", right? ;)
[20:58:53] <alex_joni> he ment "meant" I think
[20:59:03] <alex_joni> or he really meant "ment"
[21:02:40] <skunkworks> I am glad I humor you guys - thats what I get paid for. :)
[21:03:23] <alex_joni> you might share some
[21:03:34] <cradek> skunkworks: that's
[21:03:53] <cradek> that's a very nice video
[21:04:04] <alex_joni> cradek: that's true :P
[21:04:05] <cradek> I like the crankshaft lathe with the moving tools
[21:04:10] <alex_joni> yeah
[21:04:12] <cradek> very cool
[21:04:19] <alex_joni> not far from emc2-lathe
[21:04:21] <alex_joni> :))
[21:04:35] <alex_joni> although 2 spindles & all..
[21:04:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni grins
[21:04:42] <cradek> emc could do that, it's just spindle coordinated motion
[21:05:06] <cradek> such a special purpose machine
[21:05:10] <skunkworks> I thought I asked that and it wasn't possible?
[21:05:47] <skunkworks> say - like a cam (just without the rotating cutter)
[21:06:12] <cradek> not sure what you're asking
[21:06:17] <skunkworks> nice video btw
[21:06:21] <cradek> yes
[21:06:29] <skunkworks> I'm not sure what you are saying
[21:06:32] <cradek> heh
[21:06:35] <skunkworks> :)
[21:06:51] <cradek> well I won't be working on a machine like that soon I don't think
[21:07:27] <skunkworks> how is that differnt than cutting a cam on the lath with a stationary tool. I thought that wasn't possible with emc lathe
[21:08:10] <skunkworks> having "x" move in and out cordinated with the spindle encoder
[21:08:47] <cradek> that's already possible with g33 (in straight lines)
[21:08:56] <cradek> but in this case you'd control the spindle as an axis too
[21:09:01] <skunkworks> ah
[21:09:13] <cradek> then it's just simple coordinated motion of several axes
[21:09:24] <skunkworks> so the spindle servo
[21:09:43] <skunkworks> I mean - you would need a spindle servo
[21:09:46] <cradek> someone here (?) has a lathe with that, he can make the spindle self-running or gear it to a motor and control it as an axis
[21:10:19] <cradek> some kind of lever on it switches the "modes"
[21:10:24] <cradek> can't remember his name
[21:10:33] <skunkworks> ok.. That makes sense.
[21:10:54] <cradek> but if you have servo control of the spindle you could do that switching in hal
[21:11:13] <alex_joni> cradek: maybe it was davidf ?
[21:11:22] <cradek> maybe right
[21:11:34] <skunkworks> sweet. I get warm fuzzies every time I think of how powerful emc2 is. Is that odd?
[21:11:43] <cradek> no, I do too
[21:12:14] <cradek> it can run any hardware I might sometime own
[21:12:21] <cradek> (with a few SMOP in there of course)
[21:13:29] <skunkworks> emc2 installed with the live cd. Nice
[21:13:39] <skunkworks> no issues at all - and only 2 updates.
[21:13:51] <cradek> skunkworks: can you verify that it used ext3 for the root filesystem? (run "mount")
[21:14:19] <cradek> it's impossible to keep up with the updates... there were none when I uploaded it!
[21:14:41] <cradek> but I bet they were small (one was gzip, what was the other?)
[21:15:15] <cradek> I bet it is libgnutls, whatever that is
[21:16:24] <skunkworksemc> /dev/hda1 on / type ext3 (rw,errors=remount-ro)
[21:16:28] <cradek> yay
[21:17:21] <skunkworks> I don't remember what they where. but yes they where very small
[21:17:31] <cradek> ok cool, thanks for checking this
[21:17:37] <skunkworks> np
[21:17:52] <cradek> someone called ray about the ext3 thing, but he was probably just mistaken
[21:18:11] <cradek> he (the caller), not ray
[21:20:13] <K`zan> Got Metal!
[21:20:24] <skunkworks> start making chips!
[21:20:26] <K`zan> Hey cradek, I'm baaaaaacccckkk :-)
[21:20:31] <cradek> hi
[21:21:01] <K`zan> Going to wait for my toolmakers vice before I start making chips rather than using the drill press vice(s).
[21:21:27] <cradek> you can make air chips though
[21:21:30] <K`zan> cradek: Come a long way, about to CNC what I have accumulated since I was last around :-).
[21:21:39] <K`zan> I make *LOTS* of those :)
[21:21:54] <K`zan> You can breathe them here ;-) LOL!
[21:22:18] <K`zan> They did miss one piece of 12L18 though, not a biggie...
[21:22:34] <skunkworks> just need one of these http://www.electronicsam.com/video/VIDEO1.mpeg
[21:23:03] <K`zan> Checking, net is SLOW here today.
[21:23:36] <K`zan> Going to have one of those (sorta) by this time next month :).
[21:23:38] <cradek> skunkworks: wow those sound like precision spindle bearings...
[21:24:22] <K`zan> Already ordered the belt drive replacement, looking forward to that! Those plastic gears do sorta-kind work but they are noisy.
[21:24:52] <cradek> bbl, going home
[21:24:54] <skunkworks> its a menards drill press
[21:25:05] <skunkworks> can't remember the brand
[21:25:13] <cradek> heh, those bearings won't last long cutting sideways
[21:25:32] <cradek> looks like it's a creative setup though
[21:25:57] <skunkworks> well - we don't even have that togather. It was just to sell the stepping motors on ebay :) Got a lot more for them when people could see what you could do.
[21:26:27] <skunkworks> gets people thinking :)
[21:27:05] <cradek> "hey I could do that, easy!"
[21:27:10] <skunkworks> riiignt
[21:27:13] <skunkworks> riiight
[21:30:30] <K`zan> The belt drive kit comes with replacement spindle bearings (good to 8K RPM), I just don't look forward to doing the replacement.
[21:31:22] <K`zan> First thing I am going to do is make a replacement hold down arrangement for the QCTP on the lathe so I don't have to go get a damn 8mm hex wrench every time I want to change positions.
[21:32:54] <skunkworks> bbl
[21:44:22] <K`zan> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/ztmpwk/
[21:50:24] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:52:04] <K`zan> Night alex_joni
[23:25:24] <fenn> K`zan: is there a metal salvage yard near you? or even not so near
[23:26:06] <fenn> if there is, you should definitely make an effort to go there
[23:26:12] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, onlinemetals.com is 4 miles from her
[23:26:24] <fenn> yeh but they're expensive
[23:26:32] <fenn> i'm talking big piles of scrap
[23:26:46] <SWPadnos> there's probably some pile of Boeing detritus nearby
[23:27:01] <fenn> mmm boeing droppings
[23:27:11] <fenn> "whats boelube made from?"
[23:27:14] <SWPadnos> wouldn't those be yummy
[23:28:07] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos... detritus... big words. :(
[23:28:25] <SWPadnos> heh