#emc | Logs for 2006-12-03

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[00:12:28] <ejholmgren> what's a "hexapod" ?
[00:13:12] <alex_joni> a thing with 6 legs
[00:13:11] <alex_joni> :D
[00:13:23] <alex_joni> a stewart platform (google is very informative)
[00:13:50] <ejholmgren> ah
[00:14:04] <ejholmgren> was just wondering since it was mentioned on the emc main page
[00:15:30] <alex_joni> along with puma typed robots, scara robots, etc
[00:41:46] <robin_sz> I would doubt that emc could control a 6 axis bot anything like real robotware could
[00:42:30] <robin_sz> there again, I bet it controls a hexapod better than robot ware ...
[00:42:42] <SWPadnos> emc as a system is meant for G-code based positioning - ie converting whatever the real unit does to/from cartesian coordinates
[00:42:56] <robin_sz> quite
[00:43:06] <SWPadnos> I suspect that's not as useful for a robot arm as something else might be ;)
[00:43:12] <robin_sz> quite
[00:43:21] <SWPadnos> hey Robin - how far from London (or Ascot) are you?
[00:43:28] <robin_sz> miles ...
[00:43:34] <robin_sz> 100 or so
[00:43:36] <SWPadnos> you're up in the northwest-ish direction, right?
[00:43:42] <robin_sz> middle
[00:43:43] <SWPadnos> relative to London
[00:43:49] <robin_sz> releative to .. yes, nw
[00:44:06] <SWPadnos> on - toward Birmingham, right?
[00:44:06] <SWPadnos> -on
[00:44:07] <robin_sz> exactly
[00:44:14] <robin_sz> and left by 30 miles
[00:44:30] <SWPadnos> ok. I'll be in Merry Olde England in 10 days or so - just wondering how much of a drive it is to your place :)
[00:44:35] <robin_sz> heh,
[00:44:38] <robin_sz> you are welcome
[00:44:57] <SWPadnos> if I have the chance, I may call for a visit
[00:45:02] <robin_sz> please do
[00:45:04] <SWPadnos> err - email - stupid american phones don't work in England
[00:45:16] <robin_sz> [email protected]
[00:45:19] <alex_joni> robin_sz: do you know where Wolverhampton is?
[00:45:23] <SWPadnos> cool - thatnks
[00:45:33] <robin_sz> alex_joni, yep, about 10 miles away, why?
[00:45:38] <alex_joni> really?
[00:45:41] <robin_sz> uh huh
[00:45:47] <alex_joni> that's where the cloos guys are in the UK ;)
[00:45:51] <alex_joni> nice fellows.. met them this week
[00:46:26] <robin_sz> SWPadnos, I suspect I dont have anyting very interesting to look at, apart from a few lasers, but you are most welcome if you get chance
[00:46:52] <SWPadnos> ok. I may have some time "off" if I can't pin down a meeting
[00:47:04] <SWPadnos> though I'll be opposite you if that happens - in Kent ;)
[00:47:19] <robin_sz> yeah, full dyas drive from Kent
[00:47:35] <robin_sz> 180 miles
[00:47:52] <SWPadnos> yep. flying in/out of LHR, and staying in Ascot and Bracknell for a few days, so ther emay be other chances
[00:48:03] <robin_sz> ahh, right.
[00:48:07] <robin_sz> Surrey
[00:48:10] <SWPadnos> 180 miles - 4 hours (excluding traffic ;) )
[00:48:29] <robin_sz> we dotn have "excluding traffic" in england
[00:48:39] <SWPadnos> especially on the M3/M4/M25 ...
[00:49:01] <SWPadnos> and M6, M60, and most A and B roads ;)
[00:49:08] <robin_sz> I did here->gatwick->back .. set off 9am .. got back 11pm
[00:49:24] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - full day for the round trip, for sure
[00:49:36] <robin_sz> zero fun
[00:49:50] <SWPadnos> it's always fun to drive on the wrong side of the road
[00:50:10] <robin_sz> we drive faster thanyou lot
[00:50:19] <robin_sz> 80 is stnadard on motorways
[00:50:35] <SWPadnos> yeah, especially with the 2:1 exchange rate - I definitely wouldn't want to get a ticket
[00:50:51] <alex_joni> you guys need to go to germany more often ;)
[00:50:57] <SWPadnos> that's pretty common here as well - 70-75 is almost 100%, and higher is pretty common as well
[00:51:01] <SWPadnos> BAHN!!!
[00:56:15] <SWPadnos> of course, I can't read german quickly enough, so I've never driven there ;)
[00:58:03] <alex_joni> no? too bad ;)
[00:58:06] <alex_joni> it's nice
[01:00:30] <SWPadnos> I've ridden there, but I leave the driving to my sister or brother-in-law
[01:03:38] <alex_joni> I usually don't drive that fast
[01:07:10] <alex_joni> most I did in germany was around 130 mph
[01:15:16] <SWPadnos> that's about the top speed I've ever done in a car as well
[01:15:58] <SWPadnos> a friend had my minivan up to 115 - that's where the electronic governor kicks in (you can't accelerate again until you get below 90 or so, I think)
[01:23:02] <Jymmmm> Hey
[01:26:32] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[01:26:35] <alex_joni> night all
[01:27:30] <Jymmmm> gnite
[01:28:03] <SWPadnos> see you Alex
[01:28:06] <SWPadnos> hi Jymmmm
[01:28:15] <Jymmmm> hey SWPadnos, how are you?
[01:28:26] <SWPadnos> just fine. how are you?
[01:28:42] <SWPadnos> did you ever find an apartment/house/condo ... ?
[01:29:07] <Jymmmm> SWPadnos (best not to inquire, really bad yesterday. Regrding duplex and apt)
[01:29:29] <SWPadnos> bummer
[01:30:47] <Jymmmm> Worse than that, waiting 5 wks for the repairs on the new place, nothing has been done. Now rent on apt double as of Jan 1. Eledtric didn't turn on the electric, only gas. Yeaterday was one of the worse days we've had in 2006.
[01:31:11] <SWPadnos> crapola
[01:31:13] <Jymmmm> my heart was (still) in my stomache.
[01:31:27] <SWPadnos> I guess I shouldn't be too sad about dropping this screw into my speaker cabinet ;)
[01:31:47] <SWPadnos> damned magnets
[01:31:48] <Jymmmm> I wish I was so (un)lucky
[01:32:09] <Jymmmm> sorry
[01:32:15] <Jymmmm> I didn't mean to go there.
[01:32:52] <SWPadnos> sorry about that - no way to know it's such a bad subject at the moment ;(
[01:33:24] <Jymmmm> It's just when everything is out of your control and in the hands of others that just dont care and there's not a thing you can do about it, really takes part out of you.
[01:33:49] <SWPadnos> I do know the feeling
[01:33:55] <Jymmmm> =)
[01:34:13] <SWPadnos> (I was in the national guard when Desert Storm happened - that was not a good feeling)
[01:35:04] <Jymmmm> Yeah, that puts thing into perspective, no need to worry about a place to live when you're more worried about living or dieing.
[01:35:33] <SWPadnos> yes
[01:35:57] <SWPadnos> my mother recently reminded me of a conversation we had around that time
[01:35:59] <Jymmmm> If it was JUST me, hell, I could live in my car worse came to worse. But when others are involved different story.
[01:36:20] <SWPadnos> she was complaining about something or other, and I lestened for a while, then said something like
[01:36:46] <SWPadnos> "well, that's too bad, but you should realize that there are things going on in my life as well - I may be getting a suntan soon ..."
[01:37:19] <Jymmmm> and her response?
[01:37:46] <SWPadnos> well, she shifted gears pretty quickly - I am her only son (and the youngest :) )
[01:38:05] <Jymmmm> ah, heh.
[01:38:12] <SWPadnos> basically, she said there's no sense worrying about things you can't change
[01:38:33] <SWPadnos> you should learn as much as possible, and plan for whatever you think may happen, but in the end, whatever happens happens
[01:39:27] <Jymmmm> That's ironic, because on the show "Las Vegas" last night there was a budiest priest who said almost EXACTLY the sam thing that you just told me your mom said... almost verbatim.
[01:39:57] <Jymmmm> Now I'm going to have to go back and write that down.
[01:40:00] <SWPadnos> she reminded me of the conversation because I was giving her the same advice a week or two ago ;)
[01:40:07] <Jymmmm> lol
[01:40:13] <SWPadnos> (about retirement, social security, etc ...)
[01:40:39] <Jymmmm> When I hear the same thing from completely different sources, I take it as a hint.
[01:40:56] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:41:42] <Jymmmm> I believe everything happens for a reason, I may never know why though. I have also learned to trust my gut instincit too.
[01:42:08] <SWPadnos> well, I'm with you half way on that one
[01:42:19] <Jymmmm> which half?
[01:42:33] <SWPadnos> I believe that things happen out of random chance, and I've learned to trust my gut instinct anyway ;)
[01:43:16] <Jymmmm> I don't think it's as random as one might think. There have been times where years later I've found out why something happened.
[01:43:49] <SWPadnos> or you made a connection that wasn't there - the human brain as a very capable pattern matcher
[01:43:55] <SWPadnos> (hard to prove either way)
[01:44:27] <Jymmmm> Wasn't there originally, correct. But made sense years later.
[01:44:32] <Jymmmm> in reflection.
[01:45:14] <Jymmmm> Circle of Life, might just be that. Sometimes the circle is smaller than at other times =)
[01:45:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:47:25] <Jymmmm> SWPadnos hows the video cameras doin?
[01:48:02] <SWPadnos> fuck you
[01:48:07] <Jymmmm> ?
[01:48:07] <SWPadnos> err - nothing much yet :)
[01:48:23] <Jymmmm> probelms?
[01:48:31] <SWPadnos> I haven't gotten the contract yet, and the guy (as usual) keeps lowering the budget
[01:48:53] <Jymmmm> ah, sowwy bout that... didn't me to touch on a nerve there.
[01:49:00] <Jymmmm> s/me/mean/
[01:49:27] <SWPadnos> we've gone from ~2-4 million 5 years ago to ~1million last year to $500k earlier this year to $300k a few months ago to $200k now, including production of a 60-camera system
[01:49:33] <SWPadnos> that was a joke :)
[01:49:35] <SWPadnos> but it is annoying
[01:50:03] <Jymmmm> no, I understand. If I were you I'd do it and sell it to his competition for the 2.5M
[01:50:13] <SWPadnos> I may do just that ;)
[01:50:33] <Jymmmm> 5yrs is just to long. get off the pot or shit.
[01:50:43] <SWPadnos> I'll be meeting with a very well-funded (though still stingy) group of people in a couple of weeks
[01:51:18] <SWPadnos> I'm not too unhappy about it actually -I've learned a lot (about business as well as cameras), and earned just enough money to get some very nice equipment
[01:51:39] <Jymmmm> able to pay the rent while you were at it?
[01:51:41] <SWPadnos> I have a couple of other projects I may want to do more, and they're easier and one should be more lucrative as well
[01:52:12] <SWPadnos> I'm lucky enough to have some other work, shares in my old company that net me ~20-40k/year, and a wife with a job ;)
[01:52:34] <Jymmmm> hey, better than nuttin I saw.
[01:52:35] <Jymmmm> say
[01:53:27] <SWPadnos> and the odd gift from my realtively wealthy sister, plus a little bit of an inheritance didn't hurt either ;)
[01:53:46] <Jymmmm> Everything for a reason.
[01:54:09] <SWPadnos> posthat's absolutely true
[01:54:15] <SWPadnos> though the reason could be a random one ;)
[01:54:37] <Jymmmm> From the way you sound, not ALL that random
[01:54:49] <Jymmmm> You'll just might never know why =)
[01:55:10] <SWPadnos> or I could find some correlation, and be wrong ;)
[01:55:23] <Jymmmm> does it really matter?
[01:55:55] <SWPadnos> nope - doesn't matter to me
[01:56:14] <Jymmmm> I like to "believe" it for what it is, that's there's "something" out there that is above me in many ways.
[01:56:16] <SWPadnos> I usually just leave off the last part of that sentence, and say "things happen" :)
[01:57:13] <Jymmmm> I think I need to beileve that it's for a reason, if not then all the negative things make for a hurtful self.
[01:57:23] <SWPadnos> well, don't let me sway you - I have no need to convince you I'm right - you can believe what you wannt (until you start hurting people)
[01:57:45] <SWPadnos> I'm a peaceful agnostic :)
[01:58:10] <Jymmmm> I don't cram my beliefs down others throats, just verbalize them.
[01:58:34] <SWPadnos> so we share that pholosophy then - that's a good thing
[01:59:13] <SWPadnos> pardon me - gotta go glue the new contacts on my speaker
[01:59:59] <Jymmmm> I see it like this... we are always learning even after we're six feet under. If one doens't share with others, how are we to be able to expand ourselves. LEarning isn't just in the classroom, but could even be from a 4yo child.
[02:00:26] <Jymmmm> some times it's as clear as B&W, or might just be an epiphany.
[02:00:44] <Jymmmm> Yeah, I need to leave for work in a few too.
[02:03:23] <Jymmmm> I'll be back on after I get to work.
[02:03:46] <SWPadnos> see you later (maybe)
[02:24:14] <tomp-tag> hello
[03:16:19] <Jymmmmm> SWPadnos: got the speaker fixed?
[03:31:56] <ejholmgren> 1/125 microstepping is absurdly smooth
[03:32:05] <ejholmgren> and slow
[03:32:19] <Jymmmmm> huh? 1/125 ?????????????
[03:32:36] <ejholmgren> the centent drives I have give you 4 options
[03:33:14] <ejholmgren> whole steps, half steps, 10th steps, and 125th steps
[03:34:10] <Jymmmmm> intersting
[03:35:01] <ejholmgren> .0008" for each step @ 10 TPI
[03:35:55] <Jymmmmm> I wonder what you can really use that in.
[03:36:05] <ejholmgren> I have no idea
[03:38:55] <ejholmgren> grin factor is all I can really come up with atm
[03:40:52] <Jymmmmm> micro electronics is the only thing I can think of
[03:41:01] <Jymmmmm> like placement of components for mounting
[03:44:00] <jmkasunich> 0.0008" is not that fine
[03:44:17] <jmkasunich> on the cross-slide of a lathe that means 0.0016 diameter steps
[03:44:40] <jmkasunich> bearing seats and such are routinely machined to +/- 0.0005 or better
[03:46:58] <skunkworks> we had our z set to 0.00005 for a while now it is .0001
[03:47:01] <skunkworks> "
[04:15:45] <granville> Hi guys, I finished cutting my first project using emc2, thought I would share a link to some photos.... http://web.mac.com/granvillebarker/iWeb/Site/cncrcsim.html
[04:16:41] <jmkasunich> impressive
[04:18:10] <granville> thanks, it's taken a while to get the kinks out.
[04:27:20] <Jymmmmm> granville: Hey, when the machine moves to the far end of the table, does the shopvac rool with it?
[04:27:26] <Jymmmmm> roll
[04:30:36] <granville> that would be nice, but the rollers on the table under the shopvac don't roll that well, so it fell off twice during this cut. I've got a dust collector on order, tracking shows it in memphis friday, so i hope to see it monday!
[04:31:03] <Jymmmmm> granville sump-pump hose is awefully cheap.
[04:31:34] <granville> is it 4"?
[04:31:37] <Jymmmmm> granville: Less the electronics, what was the amterial cost in building the machine?
[04:31:47] <Jymmmmm> granville I've seen 1.5" and maybe 2.5"
[04:32:08] <Jymmmmm> granville but maybe you can use two lines of 1.5"
[04:32:16] <Jymmmmm> they're like 30' long
[04:32:21] <Jymmmmm> for $8
[04:32:38] <granville> it seems like about 3-4k. The extruded aluminum is about $150 for a 20' section and i think there were 5 for this one.
[04:33:00] <Jymmmmm> granville including the leadscrews?
[04:33:11] <granville> the linear rails were the most expensive part, about $2000 i think.
[04:33:20] <Jymmmmm> ah, ok.
[04:33:30] <Jymmmmm> 10 footers I'd suspect
[04:33:29] <granville> it uses a rack and pinion, rack and pinion gears from mcmaster carr.
[04:34:07] <granville> the racks aren't real long, 2 per side for the long axis.
[04:34:29] <Jymmmmm> granville: I'm jealous.... mine is 24x24x6"
[04:35:28] <granville> i started this about 3 years ago, and acutally had it together in a few weeks, but i jump from project to project and it's taken me 3 years to get back around to this one.
[04:35:30] <Jymmmmm> Nice job
[04:35:57] <Jymmmmm> Don't we all. I need to get the projects I started 8 years going
[04:36:43] <Jymmmmm> granville When you were cutting out the smaller pieces, did you use bridges?
[04:36:44] <granville> i think it may have been 5 years ago on this one, i took up motorhoming 3 years ago, and i know it was before that.
[04:37:26] <granville> which smaller pieces, and what are bridges?
[04:37:47] <Jymmmmm> granville in the slot car chair you built...
[04:38:19] <Jymmmmm> When you cut out smaller size pieces, how did oyu prevent them from getting ripped up by the cutter when it was finishing cutting it out
[04:39:08] <granville> i guess bridges are little pieces left to cut by hand? no i had it cut out the whole thing. on the circles i probably should do that but i'm using and old old version of bobcad/cam and just getting use
[04:39:13] <granville> use to it again.
[04:39:31] <Jymmmmm> granville ok, so nothing moved on you at all?
[04:39:48] <Jymmmmm> are you using any kind of clamping at all?
[04:39:53] <granville> I had a few of the circles turn up on edge and that could cause some problems but luckily didn't.
[04:40:13] <granville> i put screws around the outside of the mdf into the scarf board.
[04:41:01] <Jymmmmm> granville Yeah, the larger sheet I understand, it's what's being cut out of the larger sheet that I was questioning.
[04:41:15] <granville> i keep them right on the edge and keep that out of my cut-zone.
[04:42:19] <Jymmmmm> Hmmmm, I think we have a failure to communicate! LOL
[04:42:38] <Jymmmmm> Let's say you are cutting out a 4" wheel....
[04:43:02] <Jymmmmm> You make 4 passes 1/4" each to the final depth....
[04:43:15] <granville> oh, i see, no i don't have anything out in the middle screwed down, i cut .2" per pass 4 passes, and nothing big moved, only 2 of the smallest circle pieces.
[04:44:18] <Jymmmmm> Yeah, that's what I'm talking bout... I find the smaler stuff likes to move and that's where the bridges come into play.
[04:44:40] <granville> is there software that will program bridges automaticly?
[04:44:59] <Jymmmmm> granville Well, semi automatically.... ArtCam
[04:45:42] <Jymmmmm> granville you hav eto tell it to add bridges, then it gives you the option to adjust the type, qty, and position.
[04:46:46] <granville> i don't bobcad/cam at all, i've learned to hand-check every piece of code twice before cutting. I've had it randomly throw a z-0.8 on a g00 for no good reason. i'll have to look at artcam, i wish i could find the end-all package that does everything so i can just learn one more an thats it.
[04:47:12] <granville> I guess it would be so complicated that I would never be able to learn all of it1
[04:47:26] <Jymmmmm> granville you mean learning gcode itself?
[04:47:45] <Jymmmmm> granville or mor ethe whole CAD/CAM aspect of it.
[04:48:09] <granville> no a cad / cam package. g-code isn't too hard. i know autocad, bobcad now, and i really need to learn solidworks or something like that.
[04:48:29] <granville> And now your mentioning artcam... just one more!
[04:49:25] <Jymmmmm> granville Well, ArtCam is really CAD + CAM combined. Not a TRUE CAD program, but you can draw up your chair it it completely and it'll output the gcode for your machine.
[04:50:11] <granville> can you draw the chair in 3d and have it break down the pices for layout and cutting?
[04:51:17] <Jymmmmm> granville: Not in 3d, but you can draw each piece and if you wanted four chairs, it'll nest them so you can get as many as you can out of a single sheet of material
[04:52:16] <granville> ok so that plus bridging is more than bobcad/cam is doing for me.
[04:53:10] <Jymmmmm> granville: This is 5.5" x 11" that I made ---> http://static.flickr.com/48/168468822_dc3b8e2bc9.jpg
[04:54:13] <granville> cool, what kind of bit did you use for that?
[04:54:27] <Jymmmmm> granville: 1/2" V bit
[04:54:38] <Jymmmmm> maybe 3/4"
[04:54:55] <granville> is artcam windows platform?
[04:55:01] <Jymmmmm> granville: Drawn in ArtCam http://static.flickr.com/36/77663113_7364fb12a4.jpg
[04:55:26] <Jymmmmm> granville: Final result ---> http://static.flickr.com/38/89077820_5e05e23758.jpg
[04:56:51] <granville> nice, i'll have to give it a try.
[04:56:52] <Jymmmmm> granville: Carved and hand painted ---> http://static.flickr.com/33/61765799_f610fa36cb_m.jpg
[04:59:09] <granville> are those just all just for fun?
[04:59:50] <Jymmmmm> granville: Well, the HD was for fun (no license to sell), the others were sold.
[05:01:18] <Jymmmmm> granville: http://static.flickr.com/35/68122547_7d6160cf29.jpg
[05:02:10] <Jymmmmm> granville: Yeah, artcam is for Windows.
[05:04:10] <granville> i haven't decide what to do with my cnc machine yet. i built it because i wanted to play with one, but i really can't decide what profit-generating thing i would want to do with it, or if i should keep it as an extra shop tool.
[05:09:09] <Jymmmmm> granville Well, I guess it all depends on what you would like to do.... I never concidered making furniture like you did.
[05:10:44] <Jymmmmm> granville what do you (before the CNC machien that is)?
[05:12:59] <granville> building the machine was a fun project, and the knowledge gained is tremendous. Prior to starting on that project, I hadn't used a wood router much or tapped more than 1 or two threads. I had never cut much aluminum if any nor did i know what a knee mill or spindle were. I never had shop in high school and have a degree in Management Info systems, so this was quite a leap for me.
[05:14:45] <Jymmmmm> WEll, you cna either keep it, or sell it I guess. All depends if it was the journey or the destination.
[05:16:13] <granville> i had a computer retail store for years, then a software company, sold it, and currenly trying to decide which direction to go for that next destination...
[05:19:19] <Jymmmmm> Well, I WISH I had such a large machine, but you could outsource to sing companys that need large woodne signs done.
[05:19:20] <granville> so you mainly make signs with your machine?
[05:20:31] <Jymmmmm> My is offline and in pieces till I move. But I've been wokring wihting my means doing smaller custom work signs and such.
[05:20:57] <Jymmmmm> I'm more learning the capabilities, woes, and ooops, along the way.
[05:21:10] <Jymmmmm> and learning how to work around them too.
[05:22:07] <Jymmmmm> I try a variety of materials, finishes, etc. This is all new to me. I come from 20+ years of M$, electronics, eletro-mechanical, the CNC aspect is all new and a bit of a learning curve.
[05:24:00] <granville> i bought David Gengerys book on building a foundry, and i may build one, carve some stuff out of foam to cast and try that out. this is all new to me too, i did a little cnc on the milling machine to make parts for the router table, but i learn something new everytime i turn that thing on at this stage. cnczone has been a great help, i've been learning what bits to use for what there.
[05:25:05] <granville> what part of the world are you moving too?
[05:25:38] <Jymmmmm> Still in San Jose Calif, just out of an apt and into a duplex if all goes well.
[05:26:28] <granville> i see, the expensive part of the world. real estate out there is crazy!
[05:26:44] <Jymmmmm> granville and thus why I rent instead of own =(
[05:27:07] <Jymmmmm> But lets not go there, after yesterday, very touchy subject matter at this time.
[05:27:41] <granville> here in ms, you can purchase a very nice house for $50-$70/sq ft
[05:29:29] <granville> actually the county my parents live in has a casino, and no longer charges property taxes, license plate fees, water / sewer, and many of the other normal costs of ownership / living, but we don't have the pacific ocean either.... :)
[05:30:34] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[05:31:47] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[05:32:52] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.1branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.1branch_slot6_log.txt
[05:33:25] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (dapper) realtime (2.6.15-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[05:38:49] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (dapper) realtime (2.6.15-magma) * 10emc2.0branch/: build PASSED
[05:41:21] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/Makefile: backport a fix from head
[05:42:00] <Jymmmmm> I have a small issue of intermittant stall of my steppers, it's one thing I'm going to have to figure out still. Maybe buy geckos as they have an anti stall feature in them
[05:51:07] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (dapper) realtime (2.6.15-magma) * 10emc2.1branch/: build PASSED
[05:56:48] <granville> the drivers i'm using appear to be geckos, and they seem to work great.
[05:58:50] <Jymmmmm> Yeah, I'm using Xylotex
[05:58:58] <Jymmmmm> what is MS? Mississippi?
[05:59:35] <granville> hmmm, i had been wanting one of those, working good hmm. Yes, mississippi.
[06:00:43] <Jymmmmm> Isn;t MS all humid?
[06:01:21] <granville> very, the past few years we've been sneaking off to canada for the summers!
[06:02:28] <Jymmmmm> that would kill me.
[06:03:09] <Jymmmmm> I cna handle cold far better than I can heat.
[06:03:43] <granville> i figured it was pretty humid in san jose being close to the ocean. The humidity probably wouldn't bother you, I figure the air is much cleaner here, less cars, more green vegitation.
[06:04:24] <Jymmmmm> No the ocean cools it down big time.
[06:04:53] <Jymmmmm> you have to realize that you need a jacket in the summer time in San Francisco
[06:05:40] <granville> Wow, I haven't been out there in summer, only once in november to ispcon one year. we need to trek out that way in the rv this summer1
[06:08:23] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.1branch/: build PASSED
[06:09:54] <Jymmmmm> Well, Sf is ALWAYS cold, but SJ does got got too. But the humidity is nothing like the south form I hear of people that have been there.
[06:10:54] <granville> we just don't go outside during the worst of it, and the a/c takes care of that.
[06:14:19] <Jymmmmm> Same here, but you can get out of the shower here without having to feel you need to get back in it 2 minutes later.
[06:16:51] <Jymmmmm> granville how was the plans that you worked off of?
[06:31:20] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10infrastructure/farm-scripts/index.shtml: updated webpage to reflect new slots
[07:34:19] <ejholmgren> I think .0008" was bad math
[07:34:55] <ejholmgren> 1/125 microstepping, 1.8 deg steps, and 10 TPI
[07:38:07] <ejholmgren> .0000004" I think?
[07:40:15] <ejholmgren> .000004" is more like it
[09:32:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[09:39:25] <Jymmmmm> w
[09:41:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> O.o
[09:41:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> interesting
[09:43:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> logger_emc: bookmark
[09:43:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-12-03.txt
[09:53:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> anon, you there?
[10:00:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it looks like the mill that you have is exactly the one I'm looking at
[11:19:40] <alex_joni> morning
[12:07:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi alex
[12:09:32] <alex_joni> hi Lerneaen_Hydra
[12:10:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's happening?
[12:12:00] <alex_joni> not much
[12:12:04] <alex_joni> chillin' out ;)
[12:13:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice
[12:14:33] <alex_joni> reading, watching tv, chatting :)
[12:14:45] <alex_joni> you?
[12:17:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> schoolwork :/
[12:17:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or that's what I should be doing at least ;)
[12:21:29] <alex_joni> hehe, I remember how that was :D
[12:21:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> fun fun ;)
[12:42:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> re mailing list hot-wire foam cutter: wouldn't that be identical to an EDM, but with less extra stuff (init and so on)
[12:50:17] <alex_joni> not really
[12:50:34] <alex_joni> you don't usually care about speed at foam cutting, you just go on with the programmed speed
[12:51:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the basic set up and code is the same though
[12:51:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and the hardware is similar
[12:51:30] <alex_joni> that depends
[12:51:42] <alex_joni> I've seen hot wire cutters with two parallel tables
[12:51:45] <alex_joni> 2 x XY
[12:51:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[12:52:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> there's 4-axis edm too, right?
[12:52:06] <alex_joni> no idea ,)
[12:52:16] <alex_joni> only seen 3 live
[12:52:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.pungkuk.com/ <-- t3h shit
[12:53:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the interesting bit is that pung is scrotum and kuk is penis (both slang) in swedish :p
[12:53:28] <alex_joni> if you say :D
[12:54:51] <alex_joni> http://www.traffic-simulation.de/
[12:54:51] <alex_joni> this is fun
[14:09:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cool
[14:29:25] <alex_joni> hi robin_sz
[14:29:47] <robin_sz> meep?
[14:29:54] <alex_joni> meeep
[14:30:00] <robin_sz> so, today, i have two definitions for you:
[14:30:11] <alex_joni> heh
[14:30:32] <robin_sz> "disppointed" ... meaning "I thought robin was going to come to Geneva, but he hasnt" ...
[14:30:43] <robin_sz> some swiss guy said that :(
[15:45:19] <jepler> skunkworks: cradek and I tested out the pluto board last night on his lathe
[15:45:30] <jepler> skunkworks: there's some kind of problem with index pulse, but PWM and quadrature seem to work OK
[15:55:11] <skunkworks> Nice work!! I have been working on house stuff. :(
[15:57:22] <skunkworks> jepler: what issue with the index?
[15:59:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> random question; how good accuracy does half-stepping give compared to full-stepping?
[16:01:31] <skunkworks> Lerneaen_Hydra: have you ever seen this? http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/
[16:01:46] <skunkworks> don't know if the info is in there - but it is very informative
[16:02:17] <Rugludallur> LH: probably depends on the motor, unipolar vs bipolar, number of stacks but most manufacturers recommend not using full steps but rather 1/2 to 1/10
[16:02:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: nice link, I'll take a look at that
[16:04:23] <Rugludallur> cradek: you there ?
[16:05:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Rugludallur: any idea as to why they would recomend that, other than the possible increase in accuracy?
[16:05:33] <Rugludallur> LH: They run much smoother, less jitter and less vibrations
[16:05:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, yeah, that I've noticed
[16:06:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler: do you think the pluto-p could do that? (microstepping)
[16:06:16] <Rugludallur> LH: As far as I know the only downside to microstepping is a loss of torque, about 10% or so
[16:06:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> output a pwm signal for some amp to drive
[16:06:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, I see
[16:35:41] <skunkworks> jepler: how did you end up physically hooking up the pluto?
[16:47:34] <jepler> skunkworks: an IDC connector on pluto to a solder-cup DB-25 connector to the existing driver board
[16:47:53] <jepler> few enough pins were used that the ones available on the 26-pin header were enough
[16:48:26] <jepler> skunkworks: I haven't figured out the problem with index yet. It looks a little bit like the board is seeing a lot of index pulses that aren't there, but the signal is nice and clean when scoped at the header on the pluto board
[16:49:17] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: I think the pluto-p board would be able to do hardware step generation, making it practical to use 1/10 microstepping with high feedrates. however, I have not started work on the firmware to do so.
[16:49:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cool, so the hardware ability is there? no major risk of running out of logical elements?
[16:50:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is that something you think you'll want to add?
[16:50:16] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: it looks like a good stepping pulse generator will take a lot more resources than PWM+quadrature -- actually I am a bit worried that I won't be able to fit 4x stepgen in pluto
[16:50:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's a shame
[16:51:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what about some type of offloading to the pc?
[16:52:35] <jepler> I'll work on it
[16:52:49] <jepler> you'll hear about the results here, don't worry
[17:07:05] <wb9mjn> Hi all...
[17:08:22] <skunkworks> jepler: I am planning on desoldering some headder pins from some old motherboards. :)
[17:08:48] <alex_joni> hi wb9mjn
[17:09:20] <skunkworks> wb9mjn: long time
[17:09:43] <wb9mjn> Hi Alex....welp, EMC is more of a wintertime thing with me...expecially with all the snow, hi...
[17:10:00] <wb9mjn> I like to get out and walk in the summer...and especially the fall..
[17:10:18] <wb9mjn> Had a glitch with RC_46 on friday....
[17:10:56] <alex_joni> rc_46 is a bit old ;)
[17:11:19] <wb9mjn> Set G43 (tool depth compensation)...did a Z move to set the new offset...
[17:11:46] <wb9mjn> Then did an X / Y move...and all three axis moved....
[17:12:23] <wb9mjn> Yea, but this is probably something to do with the executive tcl/tk program...??
[17:12:35] <wb9mjn> Might still be in use, or maybe a fix already ?
[17:13:31] <alex_joni> no idea :)
[17:14:08] <wb9mjn> Yea...it was wierd...If i did a xyz move, everything worked...
[17:14:31] <wb9mjn> In the G code auto mode program, there was no problem...
[17:14:35] <wb9mjn> Just in MDI mode...
[17:14:40] <cradek> dave-e reports tool length compensation works correctly in emc2, none of us have used rc46 for a long time
[17:15:09] <wb9mjn> Ok...yea, have had a problem getting EMC2 CD to work....
[17:15:30] <wb9mjn> Might need more ram in my system, best I can tell...It bombs during booting...
[17:15:42] <cradek> how much ram do you have?
[17:16:10] <wb9mjn> Had to get some stuff done for work, so did not want to risk taking the system down for reconfiguration...
[17:16:14] <cradek> some info here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Hardware_Requirements
[17:16:35] <wb9mjn> Not sure,,,,I have not checked yet...just saw that in list messages...
[17:16:45] <cradek> oh it's a production machine?
[17:16:53] <wb9mjn> RC_46 loaded right off....
[17:17:24] <wb9mjn> No...its not, but every once and a while the quickest solution to get some fixture parts is just to do it myself...
[17:17:30] <cradek> the memory requirements are very different
[17:17:48] <cradek> that's an old system
[17:18:21] <wb9mjn> The computer is a 700 MHz PIII with a servo card....
[17:18:37] <cradek> ram?
[17:18:44] <cradek> oh you said you don't know, I remember
[17:18:49] <wb9mjn> Have to go check...hold on...
[17:18:58] <cradek> that's plenty fast - ram is the big issue
[17:19:02] <wb9mjn> Anyway to do that quick in linux ?
[17:19:12] <cradek> cat /proc/meminfo
[17:19:12] <alex_joni> cat /proc/meminfo
[17:20:45] <wb9mjn> 256 MB...
[17:20:58] <alex_joni> maybe breezy is better then
[17:21:08] <alex_joni> although dapper worked fine here with 256
[17:22:52] <wb9mjn> I tried to load the live CD for EMC2, and it bombed....
[17:23:01] <cradek> dapper will use swap for boot/install if it's available - I bet that's why 256 works for only some people
[17:23:09] <alex_joni> wb9mjn: that's not the only way to install emc2
[17:23:44] <wb9mjn> Yea, but it worked so well with RC_46, I tried it...
[17:24:52] <wb9mjn> Ok...I ll have to pop the box open, and get more memory .... should be cheap now, if I can find it...
[17:25:46] <cradek> my local computer shop still sells PC133, but it's expensive - I got my last set from ebay
[17:28:02] <wb9mjn> Tiger direct is just across town here, there is Fry's the next 'burb over, and Microcenter too...here...
[17:29:06] <jmkasunich> wb9mjn: there is another approach that doesn't involve spending money
[17:29:26] <jmkasunich> ubuntu's normal install is a "live" cd, just like the emc2 one
[17:29:40] <jmkasunich> but they have an "alternate install" cd, that doesn't require as much memory
[17:29:56] <jmkasunich> once installed, 256M should be plenty to run EMC and a few other applications
[17:30:00] <wb9mjn> Still does not explain the MDI problem....Isn't that Ray's program that is the CNC machine executive...Axis is the other popular one ...
[17:30:14] <jmkasunich> you can download that cd for free and try to install it
[17:30:31] <alex_joni> if it's a MDI problem then it's not bounded to tkemc
[17:30:31] <jmkasunich> ok, there are two issues here
[17:30:50] <jmkasunich> one is emc1 vs. emc2 - the problem you are seeing may be unique to emc1
[17:30:56] <jmkasunich> second problem is installing emc2
[17:31:21] <wb9mjn> This is EMC1...RC_46....one way to get rid of it, is to switch to Axis and EMC 2...loong term desire anyway...
[17:31:22] <jmkasunich> if the problem is unique to emc1, we won't be fixing it
[17:31:40] <alex_joni> but we would include the fix if someone sends it
[17:31:42] <wb9mjn> Might not be if its Tkemc related..
[17:31:59] <jmkasunich> the "executive" as you call it is probably NOT tkemc
[17:32:21] <jmkasunich> usually we consider "task" to be the core executive of EMC
[17:32:21] <wb9mjn> I m not sure of the terminology...been a while...
[17:32:34] <jmkasunich> and the GUIs (tkemc, axis, mini) just tell it what to do
[17:32:55] <jmkasunich> I think mini is on rc46, can you try that?
[17:33:01] <wb9mjn> The problem is that in MDI, if I do G43, then a Z move to set the offset, then an XY move, the Z axis moves, when not commanded...
[17:33:23] <wb9mjn> Not yet....most familiar with TKemc....
[17:33:27] <alex_joni> what do you mean a Z move to set the offset?
[17:33:29] <jmkasunich> does Z move to compensate for the new tool lenth during the initial Z move?
[17:33:47] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: I think G43 doesn't cause any motion
[17:33:57] <alex_joni> I know..
[17:34:07] <jmkasunich> but if you originally had a 20mm long tool, and G43 replaces it with a 50mm long tool, the machine needs to move up 30mm
[17:34:09] <wb9mjn> Yes, the Z value changes as expected to the proper z coordinate for the tool tip...
[17:34:19] <jmkasunich> so it does so on the next Z move
[17:34:57] <jmkasunich> wb9mjn: so it is moving the correct amount on the first move. so how far and in what direction does it move on the next one?
[17:35:14] <wb9mjn> I started from no comp, no tool, Z at the spindle nose.....Using Tormach tooling system....so now put in tool, and from the nose to
[17:35:30] <wb9mjn> the tool at the tip of the holder gets the compensation...
[17:36:02] <jmkasunich> the spindle moves up, right?
[17:36:19] <wb9mjn> Yes....it moved to tool tip at 1 inch above the work, and I checked it with a 1 inch block....
[17:36:35] <jmkasunich> originally the spindle nose was 1" above the work?
[17:36:48] <wb9mjn> Then, the next move crashed the system, as the tool plunged down past the work, and the holder nut hit the work...
[17:37:04] <wb9mjn> no, the spindle nose was at about 5 inches...
[17:37:07] <wb9mjn> starting...
[17:37:13] <jmkasunich> I'm confused
[17:37:23] <jmkasunich> initially the spindle nose was at 5", with no comp
[17:37:54] <wb9mjn> Ok....Set G55 offset so that Z=0 is spindle nose flush with top of work....Move spindle all the way up...
[17:37:57] <jmkasunich> then when you insert the tool and the comp turns on, the tooltip should be at 5"
[17:38:16] <wb9mjn> After checking it was 1 inch above the work, after G55 set....
[17:38:46] <wb9mjn> Then, with the Z up, insert tool, G43 and G00 Z 1 ....
[17:38:48] <jmkasunich> you are skipping things
[17:38:50] <wb9mjn> Everything works...
[17:39:08] <wb9mjn> Ok...
[17:39:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmk! 'lo
[17:39:17] <jmkasunich> lemme say it back to you without skipping anything and see if I understand what you did
[17:39:29] <jmkasunich> 1) jog spindle down till it touches top of work
[17:39:30] <alex_joni> wb9mjn: try explaining step by step, without assuming we know what you do :)
[17:39:39] <jmkasunich> 2) use g55 to set Z=0
[17:39:49] <jmkasunich> 3) jog spindle up to Z=5 on display
[17:39:58] <jmkasunich> 4) insert tool
[17:40:08] <jmkasunich> oops, wrong
[17:40:25] <jmkasunich> 4) do G0 Z1
[17:40:31] <jmkasunich> 5) verify spindle nose 1" above work
[17:40:42] <wb9mjn> Yep, did everything to 5...
[17:40:44] <jmkasunich> 6) jog spindle up again
[17:40:51] <jmkasunich> 7) insert tool
[17:41:01] <jmkasunich> 8) do G0 Z1
[17:41:08] <jmkasunich> 9) verify tool 1" above work
[17:41:14] <wb9mjn> Forgot the G43 ....
[17:41:22] <wb9mjn> Add the G43, and I did everything to 9 ...
[17:41:28] <jmkasunich> sorry - 7.5) do G43
[17:41:37] <wb9mjn> Yep...all that went great....
[17:41:42] <jmkasunich> 10) do G0 X1 Y1
[17:41:50] <jmkasunich> 11) tool comes down and crashes
[17:42:03] <wb9mjn> Yep...then all three axis move, and get a Z crash...
[17:42:03] <wb9mjn> Yep...
[17:42:15] <jmkasunich> what was the Z part of that 3 axis move?
[17:42:40] <jmkasunich> was it to Z1, or Z greater than 1, or?
[17:42:51] <wb9mjn> No Z just G01 X0 Y0 , and no Z included...
[17:43:10] <jmkasunich> ok, thats what I initially thought, and said in line 12, but then you said "all three axis move"
[17:43:13] <wb9mjn> Could be the difference between G00 on the initial Z move, then G01 on the XY ?
[17:43:16] <jmkasunich> line 10 I mean
[17:43:47] <wb9mjn> When doing 10, 11 occurs...
[17:43:57] <jmkasunich> shouldn't be a G1 vs G0 thing
[17:44:22] <jmkasunich> can you repeat the whole sequence, without inserting the tool or toolholder?
[17:44:34] <jmkasunich> that should avoid the crash, and let you see the final Z position
[17:44:55] <alex_joni> or maybe try including a Z1 on that line
[17:44:56] <jmkasunich> either its forgetting the G43 offset and returning to the original position, or something else is going on
[17:45:14] <wb9mjn> Have not, but did plenty of moving things around and did not have any crashes ....
[17:45:28] <wb9mjn> without the tool, or G43 ...
[17:45:37] <jmkasunich> thats good (but expected)
[17:46:03] <wb9mjn> If I do a G43, the G00 Z1, and then a G01 XYZ , it works!
[17:46:20] <jmkasunich> how many times have you see this bad G43 behavior? just once? how many times have you tried it? does it normally work, and only crashed the one time, or have you only tried it once?
[17:46:20] <wb9mjn> If I specify the Z, everything works...
[17:46:47] <wb9mjn> Just the once, then learned quickly to include the Z, to avoid crashing....
[17:46:56] <cradek> I just verified that this bug is fixed in emc2
[17:47:15] <jmkasunich> so it was a known bug?
[17:47:15] <wb9mjn> I am just learning the G43 / 41/ 42 stuff....
[17:47:17] <alex_joni> cradek: is there a commit that specifies that?
[17:47:24] <alex_joni> or did you verify the behaviour?
[17:47:31] <wb9mjn> Were you using Axis or Tkemc Cradek ?
[17:47:44] <cradek> wb9mjn: it doesn't matter
[17:47:56] <jmkasunich> heh - "verified" meand different things to differnet people
[17:47:59] <cradek> wb9mjn: this is not a gui problem
[17:48:06] <jmkasunich> I read it as "I see in the code where somebody fixed it"
[17:48:12] <jmkasunich> but is that actually what you mean cradek
[17:48:19] <wb9mjn> Ok....
[17:48:31] <cradek> I mean I followed the 9 steps and verified that it does the right thing
[17:48:41] <jmkasunich> if it means "I tried it and can't duplicate the result" that is less comforting
[17:48:57] <cradek> this might even be fixed in emc1.2.0
[17:49:05] <jmkasunich> we don't even know if it does the _wrong_ think all the time in emc1
[17:49:36] <jmkasunich> thats why I'm asking wb9mjn to remove the tool to prevent crashes, and repeat the steps
[17:49:41] <cradek> if we had cvs tags for rc46 I would look, but I'm sure we don't
[17:50:00] <jmkasunich> if it happens _every_ time in emc1, and not in emc2, then I agree its fixed
[17:50:20] <jmkasunich> if it takes some special set of conditions to make it happen, then maybe cradek just didn't have those conditions, and wb9mjn did
[17:50:27] <cradek> I *know* there are g43 bugs in emc1
[17:50:37] <cradek> another is with arcs in xz,yz planes
[17:50:58] <jmkasunich> ok, that is good information
[17:51:26] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich has his "just the facts ma'am" troubleshooter hat on ;-)
[17:52:08] <cradek> there is a bdi_live_rc3x tag in cvs
[17:52:22] <cradek> I'm assuming that's what in rc4x but it's not a sure thing
[17:55:55] <wb9mjn> In Auto, the program worked just fine, even though not each line had a Z coordinate...
[17:56:02] <wb9mjn> Whewwwww!
[17:56:12] <wb9mjn> Was sweating that...
[17:56:29] <jmkasunich> you actually cut a part?
[17:56:53] <wb9mjn> Yea...it was a boss style part, with a unique profile....
[17:57:10] <jmkasunich> dunno whether to call you brave or foolhardy
[17:57:15] <wb9mjn> I cut eight of them in a 3 inch long bar, twice, for the fixtures I needed at work...
[17:57:28] <jmkasunich> I guess if it worked, you are brave ;-)
[17:57:57] <wb9mjn> Actually, 4 in each bar...
[17:58:24] <wb9mjn> They closed down work on Friday, so I did this as work-from-home...
[17:58:31] <wb9mjn> Due to the storm...
[17:59:47] <wb9mjn> I would say I was just a little ignorant...not exactly brave....
[18:00:30] <wb9mjn> I put in pauses in the program after a first Z move to 1 inch high...
[18:00:39] <wb9mjn> I checked the height, then let it go....
[18:00:51] <wb9mjn> And the screen coordinates...
[18:00:56] <Rugludallur> who would be the right person to talk to about adding a better def. of "center of arc" to the gcode documentation ?
[18:01:19] <jmkasunich> which documentation? the wiki you can add to yourself
[18:01:32] <Rugludallur> nahh the handbook
[18:01:35] <jmkasunich> the users manual too, for that matter ;-)
[18:01:41] <jmkasunich> open source and all that ;-)
[18:02:04] <Rugludallur> hmm the handbook is not in cvs is it ?
[18:02:11] <jmkasunich> the source for it is
[18:02:29] <alex_joni> Rugludallur: sure is
[18:02:33] <Rugludallur> nice
[18:02:39] <alex_joni> but I can help adding stuff if you don't want to get dirty
[18:02:53] <Rugludallur> let's see what you guys think of the suggested change first
[18:03:04] <Rugludallur> I think we should consider adding drawings but asside from that
[18:03:10] <jmkasunich> emc2/docs/src/gcode/*
[18:03:17] <alex_joni> *.lyx
[18:03:28] <Rugludallur> I think it would be very helpfull to explain the difference between the center of arc and the middle of arc
[18:03:56] <jmkasunich> ah... and a picture would be perfect for that
[18:04:41] <Rugludallur> *start laughing* just spent hours trying to get g2/g3 to make sense, discovered that I misunderstood "center of arc" for I/J and was trying to use "middle of arc"
[18:05:31] <cradek> what's middle?
[18:05:42] <jepler> is middle the point on the arc halfway along its length?
[18:05:42] <SWPadnos> the halfway point in travel, I gues
[18:05:42] <alex_joni> half the distance between start and end
[18:05:46] <SWPadnos> s
[18:06:10] <alex_joni> cradek: I didn't see any commit messages about G43 in the last 2 years and more
[18:06:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can do graphics if there's an interest for that
[18:06:28] <cradek> alex_joni: and I don't see the bug where I expected to see it in emc1
[18:06:38] <alex_joni> darn
[18:06:43] <cradek> yeah
[18:07:06] <dave_1> I the emc1 G43 bug got fixed just before the first fest at Galesburg.
[18:07:33] <SWPadnos> I was looking at the manual because I thought there was an explanation of when the offsets are actually applied, but I couldn't find that
[18:07:38] <wb9mjn> Hi Dave ...That's great...
[18:07:46] <dave_1> hi don
[18:08:22] <dave_1> IIRC pc fixed that bug and might tell you where it was
[18:09:18] <dave_1> G43 sure takes the pain out of switching tools
[18:09:19] <jmkasunich> was that before or after we released emc1.2.0
[18:09:27] <alex_joni> before
[18:09:35] <alex_joni> emc1.2.0 was roughly a year ago
[18:09:50] <jmkasunich> so wb9mjn shuold be able to get that tarball from SF and update
[18:10:07] <jmkasunich> although I'm certainly not able to walk him thru the build process on rc46
[18:10:12] <alex_joni> if he can add development tools to rc_46
[18:10:24] <wb9mjn> Yea, especially when one tool is a 1 inch long 1/4 inch end mill, and the next is a .1 inch long #1 center drill...
[18:10:34] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/main.lyx: fix a bit of markup
[18:11:52] <jepler> "The Blinkensisters team is proud to present you the following fatal error:
[18:11:53] <jepler> "
[18:11:56] <jepler> haha
[18:12:09] <jmkasunich> wb9mjn: I still strongly recommend that you move to emc2
[18:12:26] <jmkasunich> support for emc1 and especially rc46 is fading fast
[18:12:42] <alex_joni> rc46 is debian.. right?
[18:12:49] <wb9mjn> Yea,,,that is the plan...Just need to be sure I have these fixtures work...then that is the next thing...
[18:12:50] <jmkasunich> morphix
[18:13:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> was EMC 1.2.0 only a year ago?!
[18:13:05] <jmkasunich> yeah
[18:13:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> whoa
[18:13:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice work
[18:13:19] <jmkasunich> that was kind of the "final" emc1 release, before we released emc2.0.0
[18:13:28] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: it's still -rc1
[18:13:32] <dave_1> don ... keep your old disk ... drop a new one in and do ubuntu + emc2.
[18:13:38] <alex_joni> we said we'll rename it to 1.2.0 sometime
[18:13:59] <jmkasunich> dave_1: good idea - a new disk is only about $60 these days
[18:14:02] <dave_1> if you have troubles (which is unlikely) then you can drop back.
[18:14:17] <alex_joni> bet a 4-5GB disk is way less than 60$
[18:14:29] <dave_1> can't find stuff that small ;-)
[18:14:35] <jmkasunich> true, if you want to go ebay or whatever
[18:14:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> usually a disk is $0-5 if size doesn't matter
[18:14:41] <jmkasunich> can't buy that retail anymore
[18:15:03] <Rugludallur> jepler: was that main.lyx commit about the "center of arc"
[18:15:05] <jmkasunich> if you're gonna install ubuntu on it and make it your main EMC machine, I'd use a nice new disk
[18:15:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> depends on how much your time is worth and how important it is that the disk doesn't die on you
[18:15:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what jmk said
[18:15:47] <dave_1> IIRC .. Don is an engineer... he can afford it.
[18:16:18] <wb9mjn> That is a good idea Dave....
[18:16:18] <jmkasunich> heh - I am an engineer too - and I know that "engineer" = "cheapskate" ;-)
[18:16:23] <wb9mjn> Yea, I can afford it...
[18:16:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[18:16:34] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822140118
[18:16:39] <wb9mjn> Yea...prius driving cheapskate engineer, that's me...
[18:16:48] <dave_1> unless he just blew all his $$ on and 80 m beam :-)
[18:16:49] <jmkasunich> until my most recent machine, I've always used dumpster drives
[18:17:00] <dave_1> an
[18:17:15] <wb9mjn> No...I was more into packet and satellites when active on Ham Radio...
[18:17:30] <jepler> Rugludallur: no, it was just fixing something that should have been a bullet, but wasn't.
[18:17:35] <wb9mjn> Although, in college I got my picture in the Daily Ilini slipping the bolts at 150 feet ...
[18:17:38] <dave_1> don.... my wife just got a Camry hybrid.
[18:18:28] <Rugludallur> jepler: ok im adding a better def of center of arc now
[18:19:52] <wb9mjn> How does she like it ?
[18:20:01] <wb9mjn> Has she figured out the Pulse and Glide yet ?
[18:20:27] <dave_1> It's nice... but this cold weather doesn't help the mileage.
[18:20:30] <wb9mjn> Not allot the HSD cars around here...more of the Honda Civic hybrids...
[18:21:05] <wb9mjn> Yep, best I did per tank was 58 during the summer, but down around 40 now, with the short trips in the cold weather yeterday and friday...
[18:21:10] <dave_1> This country is tough on mileage.... two or three decent hills to go over on the way to Seattle
[18:21:30] <wb9mjn> Should pull that up this week with the longer trips to work...
[18:21:35] <dave_1> 35 round trip to Seattle yesterday.
[18:21:40] <ejholmgren> from Washington?
[18:21:45] <wb9mjn> Just remember not to accellerate slow, and coast into stop lights....
[18:22:21] <wb9mjn> The people that complain they are getting 35 mpg in a Prius, are the ones that accellerate so slow the engine can never get
[18:22:29] <ejholmgren> took a trip to the NW last summer to look at the engineering program at OSU
[18:22:32] <wb9mjn> warmed up, or in an efficient torque/rpm point...
[18:22:38] <dave_1> 10 degree weather ... 900 ft to 3000 down to 1200 up to 2800 down for a while then up to 3200 .. then coast to sealevel
[18:22:40] <ejholmgren> _beautiful_ country
[18:23:02] <dave_1> we like it ... grew up here
[18:23:31] <wb9mjn> Battery probably not big enough for the large elevation changes....
[18:23:41] <dave_1> yep
[18:23:52] <wb9mjn> Around here, power up a hill, and the battery can recover all that energy on the way down...
[18:24:38] <dave_1> 10 mi trips seem very good. .. but the 2.5 mi to work is pretty short
[18:24:50] <dave_1> regen is nice
[18:24:58] <wb9mjn> When I bought the car out there by Skunkworks, I drove back in 15 degree weather, with lots of wind....got 43.2 mpg that day...
[18:25:34] <wb9mjn> Block warmer would help for the 2.5 mi trips...
[18:25:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> wb9mjn: in the seattle region?
[18:25:39] <dave_1> well, the Prius does get better mileage
[18:25:54] <wb9mjn> Nope, I am near Chicago...Skunk is out in Lacrosse, WI...
[18:25:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[18:26:13] <dave_1> Toyota block warmer not sold in US but listed in Canada
[18:26:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :/ great
[18:26:27] <dave_1> We are looking for one
[18:26:33] <anonimasu> dave_1: www.defa.com
[18:26:42] <wb9mjn> Yea...go on Priuschat, and look for a user named METRO ....That is Metro Toyota internet sales in Cleveland...
[18:26:47] <anonimasu> dav3: they have ones to fit toyota's..
[18:26:58] <wb9mjn> He can get the Toyota Canada parts. and sells them for reasonable...
[18:27:03] <anonimasu> it's the same as the toyota dealers installs..
[18:28:08] <dave_1> tnx
[18:30:47] <wb9mjn> Welp...thanks for the info on G43....glad its fixed....
[18:31:25] <dave_1> I'd better go get something done... mount DIN strip for servos for edm ... slow progress
[18:32:17] <wb9mjn> 73...
[18:32:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> anonimasu: you here?
[18:32:53] <anonimasu> yes?
[18:32:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[18:32:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> me is dumb
[18:33:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I should read the preceeding stuff first
[18:33:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> anyway, I saw that you have an opti-maschinen bl-20
[18:33:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what do you think of it?
[18:33:40] <anonimasu> me
[18:33:40] <anonimasu> ?
[18:33:50] <anonimasu> no
[18:33:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:33:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> on your blog
[18:33:55] <anonimasu> I've never said that
[18:34:03] <anonimasu> wtf?!
[18:34:09] <anonimasu> Lerneaen_Hydra: I'm not blogging
[18:34:08] <anonimasu> :D
[18:34:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I stumbled upon it from the wiki
[18:34:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> O.o
[18:34:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> just a sec
[18:34:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'l try to find that page
[18:34:47] <anonimasu> lol
[18:34:52] <anonimasu> yeah, but it's still not me:D
[18:35:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> who is anders wal-something?
[18:36:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.anderswallin.net/ <-- that page
[18:37:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I recognise the pendant under the cnc section from here in IRC
[18:37:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> iirc you posted it, though apparantly I'm mistaken
[18:37:59] <anonimasu> yeah :)
[18:38:02] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: it's awallin on irc iirc
[18:38:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> awallin?
[18:38:20] <alex_joni> err no
[18:38:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I don't remember seeing him here
[18:38:23] <alex_joni> that's his devel name
[18:38:24] <alex_joni> etla ?
[18:38:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh!
[18:38:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I see
[18:38:33] <alex_joni> soemthing like that :P
[18:38:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> interesting...
[18:39:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, that would explain why I found the link on a list-of-devels-page
[18:40:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so.. etla, you here? :p
[18:40:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> seeing as how he's not connected I doubt it ;)
[18:40:27] <alex_joni> indeed
[18:42:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> he's here every now and then though, right?
[18:42:33] <alex_joni> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=etla+irc+emc&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
[18:42:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, does anyone know how to use freenode''s messaging capability?
[18:42:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and that helps how?
[18:43:13] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: you get a feel how often he's around ;)
[18:43:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh :p
[18:43:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ie. often
[18:43:54] <alex_joni> try /msg MemoServ help
[18:44:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, thanks
[18:56:21] <Rugludallur> OK, I want to add the following image to the g-code handbook, any suggestions comments ? http://imagebin.org/6685
[18:59:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Rugludallur: <nitpick mode on> what about when they're in some other g17/18/19 mode?
[19:01:03] <Rugludallur> LH: good point
[19:02:59] <Rugludallur> LH: I/J are mapped to the respective axis right, so in G18 I is X and J is Z
[19:03:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, isn't that K is Z?
[19:03:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> IJK/XYZ?
[19:03:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> like in 3d vector math iirc
[19:04:11] <Rugludallur> LH: I'm not sure, never used or thought about G18/G19
[19:04:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:04:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> afaik they're tied like this: X-I, Y-J,Z-K
[19:04:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and then you choose the correct two based on if it's the XY, XZ, or YZ plane
[19:05:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so that is therefore (in the same order), IJ, IK, JK
[19:05:58] <Rugludallur> LH: I wonder if it might be best to make 3 diagrams, one for each G17/G18/G19
[19:06:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I never use that though, I let CAM take care of that :p
[19:06:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah, that sounds like a good idea
[19:06:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or use R= something if I have to
[19:08:51] <SWPadnos> you could just say "here's an example in the XY plane. G18 and G19 would use IK and JK respectively" ...
[19:10:40] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: yup, I think it might be good to include examples of both G2 and G3 though
[19:12:31] <SWPadnos> actually, you can label the G2 and G3 on the same diagram - one would do the longer arc (in gray), the other would do the short black arc
[19:12:56] <Rugludallur> SwPadnos: true
[19:28:57] <Rugludallur> Version 2: http://imagebin.org/6686
[19:31:30] <SWPadnos> I thikn the first one is clearer
[19:31:56] <Rugludallur> SwPadnos: me to, I think the second one feels a bit crowded
[19:31:57] <SWPadnos> just label the bl;ack part of the circle as the "G3 arc" and the gray part as the "G2 arc"
[19:32:16] <SWPadnos> everything else is the same -I,J,center, etc.
[19:32:38] <SWPadnos> that actually gives a nice representation of what G2 and G3 do, with everything else the same
[19:34:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, IMO the greens are a bit bright and hard to read, though that may just be me
[19:42:11] <Rugludallur> Both problems solved by doing what SWPadnos suggested: http://imagebin.org/6687
[19:42:31] <alex_joni> better
[19:42:34] <SWPadnos> looks good to me
[19:44:26] <alex_joni> it's not the most usual way to define the XY coordinates, is it?
[19:45:09] <SWPadnos> well, it is a left-hand grid, but hey ;)
[19:46:27] <lerman> I would get rid of the red, green, blue. My printer only prints in black and white (and some shades of gray), anyway. In this case, the use of color doesn't really add anything.
[19:47:08] <alex_joni> lerman: others have better printers :D
[19:47:13] <alex_joni> but I agree somehow
[19:47:24] <alex_joni> this can be done in grayscale easily
[19:47:29] <SWPadnos> the rest of the docs are black+white, right?
[19:47:32] <SWPadnos> or grayscale
[19:47:40] <alex_joni> maybe dotted lines for IJR
[19:47:56] <lerman> Yup. I have a better printer, too. But it's kind of slow and expensive to use.
[19:48:08] <lerman> Dashed lines would be fine.
[19:49:02] <Rugludallur> Let me try to make it greyscale and see if I can identify them by using dotted lines and such
[19:49:26] <lerman> The letter J next to the J line identifies it just fine.
[19:52:11] <Rugludallur> Think this works or does it lack clarity: http://imagebin.org/6688
[19:52:53] <lerman> It works just fine for me.
[19:53:12] <SWPadnos> it's pretty good. the dots for start/end may need to be bigger, and you could also add arrows by the G2 and G3, but they may not be necessary
[19:53:23] <lerman> BTW: What program do you do your drawing with?
[19:53:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that looks good
[19:53:29] <Rugludallur> lerman: gimp
[19:53:43] <SWPadnos> oh, and flip the X axis (put the Y axis line and label on the left side)
[19:54:22] <SWPadnos> you may want to try something like dia instead - a vector format will be better for documentation
[19:54:43] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: I just noticed that everything else is png in the doc
[19:54:56] <SWPadnos> ok
[19:55:07] <SWPadnos> or eps, I think
[19:56:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> me <3 vector, when applicable
[19:59:08] <cradek> the g2 and g3 are backward and the X axis points the wrong way
[20:01:47] <cradek> I suggest putting R format in a separate picture that shows R+, R-, G2, G3
[20:04:57] <cradek> (having the R in your IJ picture might be confusing)
[20:05:13] <Rugludallur> cradek: how about 1 picture with two circles, one for IJ and the other for R
[20:05:36] <cradek> sure
[20:24:05] <Rugludallur> Okey, now we are down to : http://imagebin.org/6690
[20:24:37] <alex_joni> you have "with with an R word"
[20:24:48] <Rugludallur> dohh
[20:25:12] <Rugludallur> fixing :P
[20:25:18] <Rugludallur> anything else '
[20:26:23] <alex_joni> the picture with R word has a slightly longer Y axis
[20:26:26] <alex_joni> :-P
[20:26:55] <Rugludallur> I did that on purpose, to try to box in the titles,,
[20:27:12] <Rugludallur> but if you don't like it I can change it back
[20:27:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni likes symetry :)
[20:27:38] <alex_joni> symmetry even
[20:28:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so many dynamos
[20:28:06] <Rugludallur> I like asymetric people better
[20:30:09] <cradek> on the right picture you have G2/G3 backward
[20:30:46] <cradek> and it doesn't explain +/- R (in order to get the bottom arc R would have to be negative)
[20:31:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> poor Rugludallur ;)
[20:31:04] <cradek> sorry.....
[20:31:55] <Rugludallur> nahh, feedback is good :D plus im learning in the process :D
[20:31:56] <cradek> on the IJ picture maybe there should be arrows showing which "direction" they are (since the measurement goes from start to center)
[20:32:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, yeah + or - I/J/K is good to have
[20:32:46] <cradek> Rugludallur: I don't know how to make a simple picture for R since there are four possible arcs to show
[20:39:48] <Rugludallur> cradek: if we have the center already aren't there just two arcs to show for R ?
[20:43:39] <Rugludallur> cradek: sorry, I thought R had center for some reason, my mistake
[20:53:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> action shots are fun :D http://lerneaenhydra.shacknet.nu/images/files_projects/compact5/img_6142.jpg
[20:54:29] <eholmgren> I see flying chips
[20:54:31] <eholmgren> woo hoo
[20:54:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> whee
[20:55:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> am I the only one that gets nervous when doing internal stuff?
[20:55:36] <eholmgren> as long as nothing becomes internal to your body
[20:55:55] <eholmgren> I'm excited to use the lathe on my shopsmith
[20:56:04] <eholmgren> got the table saw going last evening
[20:56:10] <Jymmmm> Anyone know if rawwrite is included with OSX ?
[20:56:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ejholmgren: :/ nasty
[20:56:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've never had that happen.
[20:56:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yet
[20:56:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ...
[20:56:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :p
[20:58:18] <eholmgren> can you use dd instead?
[20:59:59] <eholmgren> disk utility is the only thing I can think of that actually comes installed with os x
[21:00:15] <eholmgren> I think you can only burn from iso's tho
[21:00:54] <Jymmmm> eholmgren ah
[21:02:51] <eholmgren> what exactly is it that you're trying to do?
[21:02:57] <eholmgren> on a mac
[21:03:38] <Jymmmm> recreate a DOS boot diskette from an image file.
[21:03:56] <robin_sz> rawrite?
[21:04:10] <robin_sz> ISTR rawrite coming into it somewhere
[21:04:16] <eholmgren> your mac actually has a disk drive?
[21:04:27] <robin_sz> oh on a mac?
[21:04:30] <Jymmmm> robin_sz: But is doens't seem to be included in OSX, but I've been told that DD is the same thing.
[21:04:42] <robin_sz> probably
[21:04:43] <eholmgren> essentially, yes
[21:04:55] <robin_sz> you need to do the if of bs thing
[21:05:14] <robin_sz> infile outfile block size
[21:05:25] <eholmgren> infile = image / outfile = device
[21:05:54] <robin_sz> but isnt there something odd about the way macs set up their floppies
[21:06:15] <robin_sz> different number of tracks or something
[21:06:17] <robin_sz> ??
[21:06:50] <Rugludallur> How about this one, I redid R word and explained it as well as I could -> http://imagebin.org/6691
[21:08:28] <robin_sz> id never thought about negative R values before
[21:15:39] <Jymmmm> ty
[21:19:46] <cradek> if you've got an encoder with differential outputs, but you just want to hook them to logic, what do you do?
[21:20:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> integrator and schmitt trigger?
[21:21:07] <jmkasunich> cradek: use one of the signals and ignore the other
[21:21:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or maybe I don't know what differential outputs is.. (maybe not d/dx?)
[21:21:12] <cradek> jmkasunich: ground it or leave it floating?
[21:21:24] <jmkasunich> differential means one is A and the other is not-A
[21:21:26] <jmkasunich> float it
[21:21:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh :p
[21:21:49] <jmkasunich> it _is_ an output, grounding it means shorting it to ground - it won't like that
[21:21:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe a 5k to ground resistor or float
[21:22:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> depending on what it wants
[21:22:12] <cradek> it's noisy
[21:22:28] <jmkasunich> whats noisy? the floating output?
[21:22:31] <cradek> just using the +ve end there are a lot of glitches
[21:22:49] <jmkasunich> you scoping it (with a real scope, not halscope)?
[21:23:36] <cradek> there's some noise on the scope, but the FPGA is seeing a lot of transitions
[21:23:43] <alex_joni> cradek: use a rs422 thingie
[21:23:49] <jmkasunich> 26LS32
[21:24:05] <jmkasunich> this is your servo system?
[21:24:09] <cradek> yes
[21:24:43] <jmkasunich> describe the setup - how are the encoders powered, how is their ground connected
[21:24:59] <robin_sz> * robin_sz suspects it may be a real floating thingy
[21:25:08] <alex_joni> cradek: there are rs422 receivers (which basicly convert from diferential to ttl)
[21:25:37] <cradek> the encoders are powered from +5V over some ribbon cable
[21:25:46] <jmkasunich> you have fpga PWM signals going to the H bridge board, then motor power signals going to the motors, encoder power comes from where? the h-bridge board? encoder signals go where, h-bridge board, or direct to fpga
[21:26:06] <cradek> the noise starts when we turn on the sherline spindle drive
[21:26:08] <robin_sz> did he say ribbon cable?
[21:26:14] <cradek> the servos aren't powered on at all
[21:26:29] <jmkasunich> ok, so you know the noise source
[21:26:32] <cradek> yes, encoder power comes from the H-bridge board
[21:26:36] <alex_joni> cradek: can you change that ribbon with some cat5? or any other twisted pair?
[21:26:47] <alex_joni> stp workes good on encoders
[21:26:53] <robin_sz> pref shielded
[21:26:54] <jmkasunich> post photo of setup?
[21:27:10] <jmkasunich> this is just a bench test setup right now, right?
[21:27:11] <cradek> you are in a maze of twisty wires, all different
[21:27:19] <alex_joni> maze is good
[21:28:10] <jmkasunich> if I understand you, encoder power (and ground) is coming from the h-bridge board... do the encoder signals go back to that board, or direct to the fpga board?
[21:28:28] <cradek> they go back through the board as well
[21:28:38] <cradek> it's just a wire with a pull-up
[21:28:49] <robin_sz> cradek: as a rule, the encoders should live on the end of some screend cable, with some twisted pairs, the screen should connect to the chassis on the PC or servo drive, and possibly the board in the encoder. it should not connect to the chassis on the machine
[21:29:02] <robin_sz> power should go down that same cable
[21:29:35] <jmkasunich> this is the same setup that has worked well for you when doing software counting and pwm?
[21:29:42] <cradek> yes
[21:29:52] <alex_joni> parport has some filtering inside
[21:29:52] <cradek> but adding the FPGA board between the existing board and the parport
[21:30:02] <SWPadnos> and the ground reference for the encoder supply should be the same as the ground of the device that reads the encoders
[21:30:17] <SWPadnos> the FPGA is a heck of a lot faster at reading those signals - you may need to add filtering
[21:30:29] <jmkasunich> you just unplugged the db-25 from the parport and plugged it into a connector wired to the fpga board's headers, right?
[21:30:42] <cradek> yeah, there's another 1' or so of wire as a consequence
[21:30:49] <jmkasunich> 1 foot!
[21:31:04] <SWPadnos> that doesn't matter - the encoder signals are read before the extra foot of wire
[21:31:14] <jmkasunich> I thought the fpga board physically plugged into the PC's parport connector?
[21:31:24] <SWPadnos> err - unless there's an extra 1 foot from the old DB25 to the pin header ;)
[21:31:34] <jmkasunich> I think thats the case
[21:31:35] <SWPadnos> (my mistake - listen to cradek)
[21:31:38] <cradek> yes
[21:31:42] <cradek> actually it's not cradek, it's jepler
[21:31:46] <cradek> so if I sound stupid, it's him
[21:31:48] <cradek> er, me
[21:31:52] <SWPadnos> excellent!
[21:32:12] <alex_joni> lol @ jepdek
[21:32:19] <jmkasunich> how many ground conductors in that foot of cable?
[21:32:38] <cradek> 2 and about 11 signal
[21:32:45] <cradek> no power
[21:32:57] <SWPadnos> try using 1 ground for each signal
[21:33:10] <SWPadnos> and run the grounds between each signal
[21:33:23] <SWPadnos> G - A - G - B - G
[21:33:33] <jmkasunich> did the original setup use the shell of the d-shell? was/is the cable from the d-shell to the h-bridge board shielded, and is that shield grounded at one or both ends?
[21:33:42] <alex_joni> sounds like udma133 ribbon
[21:33:46] <cradek> nothing was shielded
[21:33:59] <SWPadnos> yes, or SCSI or parallel port :)
[21:34:16] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: hi-end parport cable
[21:34:42] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: or a parport ribbon cable
[21:34:59] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: never had one of those :-%
[21:34:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe you should try one of those high-end round IDE cables, they have 80 conductors with one ground wrapped around each
[21:35:05] <SWPadnos> 8 grounds, 8 data. coincidence?
[21:35:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> parport ribbon?
[21:35:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cool
[21:35:21] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra: IDE cables have the wrong number of pins
[21:35:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shouldn't be that hard to make an adapter board, though for something like this it feels over the top
[21:35:56] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: remember the internal cables that went from a header on the mobo or a parport board to a db25 on the chassis
[21:36:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as parport pins < ide pins
[21:36:03] <SWPadnos> the FPGA card is the adapter board ;)
[21:36:05] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra: it is over the top
[21:36:15] <alex_joni> I vaguely remember the very old ones (with coloured wires)
[21:36:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmk, yeah ;)
[21:36:28] <alex_joni> the newer ones I've seen were all grey ribbon with 1 ground
[21:36:32] <jmkasunich> cradek: IIRC, the encoder signals were going to a uC that divided them down
[21:36:44] <cradek> for all the encoder signals besides the index pulse, yes
[21:36:45] <cradek> they still are
[21:36:51] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, no - they have one colored edge to mark pin 1, but pins 18-25 are still all grounds
[21:36:54] <jmkasunich> those were differential? and you were using only one side for the uC?
[21:36:59] <cradek> the plan was to take that chip out and bypass it but that hasn't been done yet
[21:37:14] <cradek> yes, the signals have always been used as single-ended, not differential
[21:37:19] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: yeah, maybe.. but not twisted
[21:37:33] <SWPadnos> no - I've never seen a twiste pair ribbon cable except for SCSI
[21:37:36] <jmkasunich> so what have you done? the encoder signals are now going direct to the db-25, right?
[21:37:43] <SWPadnos> well, and you can buy them rom DigiKey
[21:38:15] <jmkasunich> or are you still running them thru the divider uC?
[21:38:30] <cradek> they're still going through the divider uC
[21:38:38] <jmkasunich> ok, then the original question was a red herring
[21:38:48] <jmkasunich> you asked about using half of a differential signal
[21:38:50] <cradek> the differential question?
[21:38:50] <SWPadnos> heh - true enough
[21:39:06] <cradek> the troublemaking signal isn't, though
[21:39:09] <cradek> going through the uC
[21:39:15] <jmkasunich> its not?
[21:39:21] <alex_joni> it's index?
[21:39:25] <jmkasunich> what signal is it then, the index?
[21:39:30] <SWPadnos> what's the sample clock for the quadrature counters on the FPGA?
[21:39:39] <cradek> SWPadnos: 40MHz
[21:39:42] <SWPadnos> eex
[21:39:44] <SWPadnos> eek
[21:39:52] <SWPadnos> slow that down, and add filter caps to the inputs
[21:40:20] <SWPadnos> the mirocontroller reads once every couple of microseconds, so there's a software filter in there
[21:40:34] <alex_joni> most encoders can only do a couple of hundred kilohertz
[21:40:39] <alex_joni> the high end can do 2-3MHz afaik
[21:40:47] <SWPadnos> also the pin capacitance may be a real filter as well
[21:40:51] <cradek> why does slowing down the frequency I read the pins help?
[21:41:00] <SWPadnos> sure, but for noise immunity, the uC is better than the fast response FPGA pins
[21:41:05] <jmkasunich> IMO slowing down is _NOT_ the right answer
[21:41:10] <jmkasunich> its a bandaid
[21:41:18] <SWPadnos> slowing down will give the same masking of the problem that the uC has ;)
[21:41:20] <alex_joni> an RC might be good
[21:41:35] <cradek> actually things got a lot better after we added a C (There was already an R pull-up)
[21:41:37] <SWPadnos> but the filter caps are probably hte real answer (if grounding can't fix it)
[21:42:05] <jmkasunich> cradek: you never answered - what signal is giving the problem?
[21:42:20] <cradek> jmkasunich: the index (Z) input from the spindle encoder
[21:42:37] <jmkasunich> you are sending A and B thru the uC, but Z direct?
[21:42:43] <cradek> yes
[21:42:47] <jmkasunich> eww
[21:43:17] <SWPadnos> you should have a 0.5 - 1 uS time constant for the RC filter, I think. if you do that, then the clock has no need to be 40 MHz
[21:44:03] <jmkasunich> I bet all the signals have noise - but quadrature is naturally resistant to it, if the quadrature to counter logic is done right
[21:44:05] <cradek> I don't understand why a lower sample rate would fix anything, as opposed to hiding it.
[21:44:20] <jmkasunich> count up on the leading edge of the nosie pulse, down on the trailing edge, no net effect
[21:44:30] <SWPadnos> it doesn't fix anhything, it's just unnecessary if there are low pass filters on the input pins
[21:44:33] <cradek> right, it might be off by one count during noise on A or B
[21:44:40] <jmkasunich> cradek: it won't fix anything - its is strictly hiding
[21:44:46] <cradek> let
[21:44:55] <SWPadnos> it has no effect if there is filtering on the pins
[21:45:23] <SWPadnos> so it's unnecessary to slow it down
[21:46:13] <jmkasunich> if noise events last 10nS, and you are clocking at 40MHz, you have a 1 in 2.5 chance of seeing them
[21:46:30] <jmkasunich> if you are clocking at 1MHz, you onlyhave a 1 in 100 chance of seeing them
[21:46:40] <jmkasunich> but the chance is still there
[21:46:53] <jmkasunich> slowing the clock is _absolutely_ the _wrong_ way to solve the problem
[21:46:55] <alex_joni> cradek: index pulses have also 2 lines usually: one that is always low, and turns high on index, the other one reversed
[21:47:07] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: thats differential
[21:47:09] <SWPadnos> of course, that's why I've ben saying that an external RC filter is probably the answer
[21:47:30] <jmkasunich> part of the answer
[21:47:31] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: right
[21:47:51] <SWPadnos> if you have an external filter with a 1 uS time constant, then there can't be a 10 nS glitch (in theory)
[21:47:52] <jmkasunich> good grounding and wiring can transmit high frequency signals without allowing noise in
[21:48:00] <SWPadnos> yes
[21:48:09] <Rugludallur> bahh, I can't seem to commit to CVS can someone add t quadrature is naturally resistant to it, if the quadrature to counter logic is done right
[21:48:10] <Rugludallur> <cradek> I don't understand why a lower sample rate
[21:48:12] <jmkasunich> if you have not so good grounding and wiring and noise is getting in, you can reduce bandwidth with filters
[21:48:26] <SWPadnos> you have to remember that the noise margin on the FPGA is also much smaller than that of the uC
[21:48:25] <Rugludallur> Rugludallur: sorry, wrong paste
[21:48:48] <Rugludallur> Can't seem to commit, can someone add http://imagebin.org/6692 to main.lyx
[21:49:06] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: why smaller margin? 3.3V vs 5V?
[21:49:12] <SWPadnos> yes
[21:49:23] <SWPadnos> the FPGA is 5V tolerant, but it's a 3.3V part, I think
[21:50:13] <jmkasunich> cradek: you can try the RC filter
[21:50:20] <jmkasunich> add it right at the fpga board
[21:50:38] <jmkasunich> and after the pullup
[21:50:54] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, you're right - proper cabling and grounding design is better than a filter, and a filter is better than a slower clock ...
[21:50:54] <cradek> you're right about the 3.3v vcc_io
[21:51:00] <jmkasunich> otherwise the series resistance and the current from the pullup will prevent "low" from begin as low as it should be
[21:51:12] <jmkasunich> s/begin/being/
[21:51:37] <jmkasunich> another option is digital filtering
[21:51:47] <SWPadnos> takes too many LE's ;)
[21:52:23] <jmkasunich> feed the input into a shift register, when all SR bits are high, set the output ff, when all SR bits are low, reset the output ff
[21:53:09] <SWPadnos> like I said - too many LEs (I think the FPGA is basically full already)
[21:53:36] <jmkasunich> my first choice if I was building a board (as opposed to using an existing board) would be a 26LS32 differential receiver chip
[21:53:51] <jmkasunich> I'll let cradek / jepler decide if its too many LEs
[21:53:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:54:19] <SWPadnos> actually, most FPGAs can configure pin pairs as differential pairs
[21:54:30] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure what voltage tolerance they have though
[21:54:40] <jmkasunich> yeah, but the fpga on the pluto board is pin limited
[21:54:48] <jmkasunich> not fpga pins, but pins leaving the board
[21:54:50] <SWPadnos> yes
[21:54:51] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:54:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: not this one
[21:55:13] <SWPadnos> ah - well, maybe that's why they phased out this line ;)
[21:55:30] <jmkasunich> you can certainly use logic to make them differential
[21:55:30] <SWPadnos> this is kind of a CPLD/FPGA mish-mash chip, I think
[21:55:53] <cradek> as soon as someone sends me a sample of their new parport-based fpga board I'll shift my development to it
[21:55:55] <jmkasunich> if in0 and not in1, set FF, if not in0 and in1 reset FF, else no change to FF
[21:56:08] <SWPadnos> cradek / jepler: ok. it's a deal :)
[21:56:26] <jmkasunich> but the real obstacle to that is the limited number of header pins on the board, so lets drop that idea
[21:56:51] <cradek> adding RC filters and/or schmitt triggers sounds like the thing to look at first
[21:56:57] <jmkasunich> digital filter (if you have FFs and logic), analog filter, differential receiver, or better wiring and grounding practice
[21:57:38] <cradek> digital filter for the Z inputs would be my next choice -- the device is 90% full, so not too many more FFs will fit
[21:58:02] <jmkasunich> is the Z input registered?
[21:58:12] <jmkasunich> (ie, first thing it goes to is a ff in the I/O block of the fpga)
[21:59:41] <jmkasunich> depending on how long the noise pulses are, a single FF of filtering might do wonders
[22:00:12] <cradek> no, it's not registered
[22:00:17] <jmkasunich> otoh, if the noise glitches are 200nS long, then digital filtering is right out
[22:00:40] <jmkasunich> usually an I/O FF is free - I'd register everything
[22:00:55] <cradek> I don't know how long they are -- it was hard to see them on the scope
[22:01:29] <jmkasunich> especially since external inputs are asynchronous - you risk nasty metastability issues especially if the Z input drives more than one FF in the logic (like reseting a multi-bit counter, or latching a multi-bit value)
[22:02:08] <jmkasunich> do you have a URL for the FPGA datasheet?
[22:02:22] <cradek> jas
[22:03:02] <cradek> http://www.altera.com/literature/lit-acx.jsp
[22:06:06] <jmkasunich> "Each IOE contains a bidirectional I/O buffer and a flipflop that can be used as either an output or input register"
[22:06:55] <cradek> I hadn't quite mad this idea of registering inputs click before, but I think it just did
[22:07:20] <jmkasunich> ?
[22:07:28] <cradek> the "metastability issues"
[22:08:07] <cradek> I have been chasing a bug where sometimes the 32-bit-extended count of the last index pulse was wrong, and it led to the HAL module going back to 16384 (the size of the register on the fpga) when an index pulse was seen
[22:08:06] <jmkasunich> s/mad/had/ and s/I think it just did/I think it registered them anyway"/ ?
[22:08:25] <jmkasunich> oh
[22:08:26] <cradek> no, I think I just understood the *reason* for it -- and if so, I know my inputs aren't registered
[22:08:29] <cradek> time to try this again without the uC
[22:12:36] <jmkasunich> the next time you are using the FPGA tools, try registering _ALL_ input signals, and see if the LE utilization changes. it shouldn't, since it should use IOB FFs, not LE FFs
[22:15:22] <jmkasunich> also, configure slew rate control for slow slew rate on all outputs
[22:15:29] <jmkasunich> that will limit ground bounce
[22:21:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: have you also got a pluto-p?
[22:22:27] <jmkasunich> right now, cradek is jepler
[22:23:04] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[22:23:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> O.o
[22:23:32] <alex_joni> huh? did anyone commit anything?
[22:23:37] <jmkasunich> no
[22:23:38] <alex_joni> or is jmkasunich playing with python stuff
[22:23:51] <jmkasunich> I triggered the build
[22:23:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as in they are one and the same or they're at the same place?
[22:23:58] <alex_joni> Makefile:225: *** KDIR is not set and /lib/modules/2.6.16.20-rtai/build is not a valid kernel build location.. Stop.
[22:24:13] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: they are at the same place now
[22:24:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, cool
[22:24:20] <alex_joni> both writing as cradek :)
[22:24:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> do they live that close to each other?
[22:24:55] <jmkasunich> both in lincoln nebraska
[22:25:05] <jmkasunich> and both work at the same place
[22:25:08] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: http://frappr.com/emc2
[22:25:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha, cool
[22:25:13] <alex_joni> you can see there
[22:27:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice
[22:28:10] <eholmgren> ha ... Nebraska, poor bastards
[22:28:37] <eholmgren> grew up in SD and live in MN now though, so I guess I can't talk
[22:28:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[22:29:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can say that though
[22:29:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra repeats
[22:29:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the closest I've been to nebraska is probably texas or lousiana
[22:29:57] <alex_joni> where is fest again?
[22:30:12] <jmkasunich> galesburg Illinois
[22:30:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> far too far for me at least ;)
[22:30:26] <alex_joni> IL ?
[22:30:28] <jmkasunich> about half way between me and cradek/jepler
[22:30:31] <jmkasunich> IL
[22:30:40] <alex_joni> ok
[22:31:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night people
[22:31:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra does not like getting up early
[22:31:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> bah
[22:35:05] <alex_joni> "the world of open source is really rough! never fool around with the gpl-guys or you might end up with a pinguin head in your bed one day."
[22:35:08] <alex_joni> ROFL
[22:36:01] <jmkasunich> it is very quiet in my basement now....
[22:36:14] <jmkasunich> (turned off the old compile farm hardware)
[22:36:50] <jmkasunich> logs show each slot compiled CVS head about 1200 times in the last 13 months
[22:36:55] <alex_joni> nice
[22:37:28] <jmkasunich> anybody want a nice cubix 8 slot blade system? ;-)
[22:39:04] <alex_joni> :-)
[22:41:00] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: arent thoose very expensive?
[22:41:12] <jmkasunich> at one time it was _very_ expensive
[22:41:18] <jmkasunich> but this one is very old
[22:41:35] <anonimasu> ah, I were thinking about thoose cube linux computers ;)
[22:41:35] <jmkasunich> each blade is a 200MHz Pentium (1)
[22:41:48] <jmkasunich> 1995 or 1996 manufacture I think
[22:44:18] <eholmgren> cold down there now too?
[22:44:39] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[22:45:16] <eholmgren> could have had an 8 way xeon system
[22:45:30] <eholmgren> but I didn't have 220v :)
[22:45:40] <jmkasunich> this wasn't so bad
[22:45:53] <jmkasunich> it had dual 375W power supplies, but that was for reduncancy
[22:45:56] <eholmgren> put that baby on the floor in front of the monitor and saddle it up
[22:46:07] <jmkasunich> I was running 6 of the 8 slots on a single supply
[22:46:07] <eholmgren> don't need a chair then
[22:54:56] <SWPadnos> new compile farm: ;) http://www.tyan.com/products/html/typhoon_b2881.html
[22:56:03] <alex_joni> only 4 slots :/
[22:56:17] <SWPadnos> but 8 (possibly dual core) CPUs
[22:56:23] <SWPadnos> good for VMs :)
[22:56:29] <eholmgren> that's pretty hot
[22:56:53] <SWPadnos> it's fairly cheap too - ~$4500 for the bare system
[22:56:58] <eholmgren> only 45dB too
[22:57:13] <SWPadnos> I think that's with no CPU, no RAM, and no HD though
[23:04:36] <jmkasunich> nice, but spendy
[23:04:39] <jmkasunich> I think I'll pass
[23:05:12] <jmkasunich> I wonder why it doesn't have 4 identical mobos
[23:07:03] <alex_joni> the first one is some kind of master
[23:07:07] <alex_joni> with 3 lan's
[23:07:12] <SWPadnos> yep
[23:07:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: wonder why 4.51 is failing on 2_0_branch
[23:07:29] <SWPadnos> the case has 9 GbE ports O_O
[23:07:37] <jmkasunich> because of that stupid KDIR thing which I am too lazy to figure out
[23:08:12] <alex_joni> hmm.. thought that was only for 4.30
[23:08:18] <alex_joni> how come 2.1 and hEAD are working?
[23:08:31] <jmkasunich> because their configure is smarter maybe?
[23:08:39] <alex_joni> oh ok
[23:09:46] <alex_joni> Always add KDIR=/usr/src/kernel-headers-`uname -r` to the make commandline.
[23:10:25] <alex_joni> from http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_38_Compile_EMC2
[23:10:25] <jmkasunich> exactly what does that mean?
[23:10:34] <jmkasunich> make KDIR=blahblah
[23:10:43] <alex_joni> that works too
[23:10:45] <jmkasunich> or KDIR=blahblah ; make
[23:10:50] <alex_joni> or that
[23:11:14] <jmkasunich> so not really to the make command line - I could just set KDIR once?
[23:11:42] <alex_joni> yeah
[23:11:43] <jmkasunich> the script does "make clean", then "make"
[23:11:56] <jmkasunich> ok, I'll give it a try and see what happens
[23:12:01] <alex_joni> set it at the beginning of the script
[23:12:12] <jmkasunich> after configure tho
[23:12:22] <jmkasunich> since that seems to work
[23:13:12] <alex_joni> that's safer
[23:13:21] <alex_joni> configure might unset it
[23:16:02] <jmkasunich> testing
[23:17:11] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[23:18:00] <jmkasunich> hmm, wonder if I have to export it?
[23:18:59] <jmkasunich> there is no directory /usr/src/kernel-headers
[23:19:24] <alex_joni> it's called linux-headers lately
[23:19:24] <jmkasunich> there is /usr/src/linux-headers-blahblah
[23:19:25] <SWPadnos> wouldn['t it have the kernel version in there somewhere?
[23:19:47] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: I just didn't want to type all the crap
[23:19:51] <alex_joni> blahblah is the version ;)
[23:20:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:20:11] <cradek> /lib/modules/uname/build should point to the build directory
[23:20:25] <SWPadnos> new olympic sport: "synchronous IRC typing"
[23:21:01] <cradek> (replace uname with the kernel version)
[23:21:23] <SWPadnos> so /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build
[23:21:27] <cradek> yes
[23:21:41] <cradek> that's how kbuild works
[23:21:46] <jmkasunich> I'm trying with KDIR=linux-headers-blahblah
[23:22:01] <SWPadnos> blahblah should be `uname -r`
[23:22:05] <jmkasunich> right
[23:22:10] <alex_joni> cradek: it was missing on some BDI's
[23:22:21] <SWPadnos> like the RTAI testsuitr ...
[23:22:24] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[23:22:24] <SWPadnos> testsuite
[23:22:37] <alex_joni> cradek: guess paul didn't took care of the symlink which gets deleted
[23:22:41] <cradek> alex_joni: but after 51 versions I assumed it would be right, I haven't looked
[23:22:59] <jmkasunich> lol
[23:23:06] <alex_joni> I stopped looking after 30 or so
[23:23:07] <alex_joni> :)
[23:23:17] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: is /lib/modules/blahblah/build exist?
[23:23:23] <alex_joni> s/is/does/
[23:23:47] <jmkasunich> yes
[23:24:03] <jepler> maybe you need to specify: --with-kernel-headers=<directory> Location for kernel headers
[23:24:04] <alex_joni> and does it point the right way?
[23:24:14] <jmkasunich> /lib/modules/2.6.16.20-rtai
[23:24:45] <jmkasunich> is a directory (doesn't "point" anywhere)
[23:24:51] <jmkasunich> should I use that as KDIR?
[23:24:51] <alex_joni> I said /build/
[23:25:03] <jmkasunich> oops
[23:25:03] <alex_joni> so /lib/modules/2.6.16.20-rtai/build/
[23:25:20] <alex_joni> that should be a symlink to the /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.16.20-rtai folder
[23:25:21] <jmkasunich> no such thing
[23:25:33] <alex_joni> cradek: 51 more versions needed then ;)
[23:25:40] <jepler> then his debs are fubar, but you ca nwork around it with --with-kernel-headers=/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.16.20-rtai
[23:25:58] <jmkasunich> instead of KDIR=, or in addition to?
[23:25:59] <jepler> btw cradek is cradek again
[23:26:05] <alex_joni> jepler: we figured
[23:26:07] <jepler> I think that's instead of KDIR=
[23:26:14] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich tries
[23:26:15] <jepler> so you don't have to give it every time you compile
[23:26:35] <jepler> er, every time you "make"
[23:26:53] <SWPadnos> out of curiosity, do you expect to keep te compile farm slots up to date, or leave them "as installed"?
[23:27:12] <jmkasunich> good question
[23:27:18] <SWPadnos> or should there be two slots for BDI and Ubuntu?
[23:27:24] <jmkasunich> ?
[23:27:29] <alex_joni> original, updated
[23:27:43] <SWPadnos> yeah -two slots each
[23:27:45] <jmkasunich> I can't afford more slots
[23:27:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:27:53] <SWPadnos> just add RAM :)
[23:27:57] <jmkasunich> I have a gig
[23:28:00] <SWPadnos> just add RAM :)
[23:28:16] <jmkasunich> thats all I can do on this system because I'm running the magma kernel on the host
[23:28:24] <jmkasunich> RTAI and >1G don't get along
[23:28:30] <SWPadnos> really?
[23:28:37] <cradek> yes
[23:28:38] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[23:28:55] <skunkworks> I remeber that ;)
[23:29:02] <skunkworks> remember
[23:29:06] <SWPadnos> I'm dimly being reminded :)
[23:29:11] <cradek> SWPadnos: paolo says he'd try to fix it if only someone would send him some ram
[23:29:18] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:29:19] <alex_joni> hmm.. is the host RT ?
[23:29:19] <cradek> (paraphrase)
[23:29:51] <SWPadnos> how long ago was that? he may have a newer machine with real memory by now ;)
[23:30:25] <alex_joni> it wasn't for his machine ;)
[23:30:46] <alex_joni> the ram was intended for him :P
[23:31:06] <SWPadnos> not a battering ram, silly
[23:31:14] <alex_joni> MRAM
[23:31:53] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yes, my host is RT
[23:32:03] <jmkasunich> Ubuntu 6.06 LTS with the realtime kernel
[23:32:08] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: oh ok
[23:32:25] <cradek> I thought someone said vmware didn't agree with that
[23:32:27] <alex_joni> wonder if you can boot without more than 1G and instruct vmware server to use the rest
[23:32:28] <jepler> that was me
[23:32:39] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[23:32:40] <jepler> my rt breezy locked up when I tried to start a vmware guest on it
[23:32:48] <cradek> huh
[23:33:01] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: doesn't matter, because I have two slots on the mobo, and two 512M sticks in them
[23:33:16] <jepler> jmkasunich: hm, maybe --with-kernel-headers wasn't in 2.0?
[23:33:19] <jmkasunich> If I have more memory, it will be on a newer machine, and that is some ways down the road
[23:33:36] <alex_joni> jepler: I'm sure KDIR=... was
[23:33:56] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: I removed KDIR
[23:34:23] <jmkasunich> checking /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.16.20-rtai/include/linux/version.h usability... yes
[23:34:34] <jepler> jmkasunich: yeah, I see that
[23:34:37] <jmkasunich> its either using the --with-kernel-headers line, or found it on its own
[23:35:09] <jmkasunich> looks like the presence and usability tests are in the wrong order, but irrelevant here
[23:35:54] <alex_joni> it did find that even before
[23:36:03] <alex_joni> so my guess is that --with-kernel-headers was not there
[23:36:10] <alex_joni> ./configure --help can clarify
[23:36:46] <jmkasunich> with-kernel-headers is listed under help
[23:37:25] <jmkasunich> oops
[23:37:38] <SWPadnos> hmmm - /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.16.20-rtai/include/linux/version.h isn't the same as /lib/modules/2.6.16.20-rtai/build
[23:38:02] <jmkasunich> with-kernel-headers is _not_ listed (for version 2.0)
[23:38:14] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: but it should
[23:38:45] <jmkasunich> nor is --with_realtime - need to use --with_rtai
[23:38:48] <jmkasunich> lemme try that
[23:39:04] <SWPadnos> I suppose the make clean target is trying to remove modules, so maybe they should be different
[23:39:22] <SWPadnos> shouldn't configure barf if you give it an invalid option?
[23:39:34] <jepler> SWPadnos: no, I think it's a feature that you can give it bogus options
[23:39:35] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: not according to the specs
[23:39:35] <jmkasunich> you'd think
[23:39:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:39:42] <SWPadnos> ok
[23:39:56] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: it's supposed to do that, so you can use the same script over a variety of configures
[23:40:06] <alex_joni> and it only uses the options it knows about
[23:40:07] <SWPadnos> can it be made to barf if you give it an unrecognized option? ;)
[23:40:10] <jmkasunich> a warning "WARN: unknown option --foo" would be nice
[23:40:11] <jepler> so for instance you can use "--with-gnu-ld" everytime you run configure, even if most packages don't know what it means
[23:40:11] <SWPadnos> ok
[23:40:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: wonder if you need the --with_rtai option at all
[23:41:06] <alex_joni> it seems to be finding it all
[23:41:34] <jmkasunich> lets get it to work, then I'll start removing hints until it breaks again ;-)
[23:41:49] <alex_joni> ha
[23:42:57] <jmkasunich> failed again
[23:43:08] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[23:43:51] <jmkasunich> yeah, its pretty clear that it _was_ finding rtai on its own, and now is getting it from the command line
[23:45:29] <SWPadnos> I may be misreading the error, but it looks to me like the error is bogus. the headers dir isn't the same as the modules dir, and make clean should need the modules dir so it can delete old modules
[23:45:40] <SWPadnos> make <other target> should need KDIR so it can build modules
[23:45:42] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: it goes deeper than that
[23:45:46] <jmkasunich> and I'm about 99% certain its finding /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.16.20-rtai on its own as well
[23:46:07] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2.0branch_slot6_log.txt
[23:46:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: try it manually, not from the script
[23:46:18] <alex_joni> KDIR=foo ; make clean
[23:47:49] <jmkasunich> "export KDIR=foo ; make clean" works much better
[23:48:19] <jmkasunich> without the export it doesn't work
[23:48:41] <alex_joni> ok
[23:52:07] <jmkasunich> seems to be working, should get the answer in a few minutes
[23:55:36] <eholmgren> what's the best wire to run between the drives and the steppers
[23:55:44] <eholmgren> only need 4 wires
[23:56:50] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 (2.6.16.20-rtai) * 10emc2.0branch/: build PASSED
[23:56:53] <alex_joni> what current?
[23:56:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: yay
[23:57:32] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: quite faster than the old compile farm
[23:57:44] <eholmgren> 3A steppers
[23:57:52] <eholmgren> 24V ps
[23:58:22] <alex_joni> put some thicker wires, so you don't get losses
[23:58:38] <eholmgren> what gauge multi conductor would you suggest?
[23:58:43] <alex_joni> maybe like the ones powering HDD's in your PC
[23:58:48] <alex_joni> no idea how you call it :)
[23:58:53] <alex_joni> 1-2 mm^2
[23:59:12] <alex_joni> how long?