#emc | Logs for 2011-02-01

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[01:00:55] <skunkworks> I bought one of these at target today after seeing one. http://www.amazon.com/Air-Hogs-Havoc-Heli-RED/dp/B000NU0CWI
[01:01:07] <skunkworks> 24 dollars and it works pretty decent.
[01:01:13] <skunkworks> unreal
[01:02:14] <skunkworks> li-po battery and a pretty decent fly time. 20 minute recharge
[01:03:05] <skunkworks> 2 chanel
[01:03:07] <skunkworks> channel
[01:04:58] <toastydeath> buy two, then
[01:05:02] <toastydeath> strap BB guns to them
[01:05:07] <toastydeath> DOGFIGHT
[01:08:17] <skunkworks> This thing is like 6 inches long. it would have to be a very small bb gun
[01:09:06] <toastydeath> make one!
[01:10:07] <toastydeath> with a little BB magazine and everything.
[01:20:52] <skunkworks> they come in 3 different 'stations'. They are infrared though - so they don't work the greatest outside or under really bright lights.
[01:21:00] <skunkworks> channels I mean
[01:21:14] <skunkworks> not had an isssue yet
[01:21:55] <toastydeath> oh
[01:22:32] <skunkworks> but for 24 dollars... :)
[01:24:25] <skunkworks> http://youtube.com/watch?v=XjG2gZFRXSs
[01:24:36] <skunkworks> although I don't think I would fly it around children
[01:31:43] <skunkworks> the cats are interested in it though ;)
[02:05:15] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl: unobtrusively save view preferences
[02:05:14] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: unobtrusively save view preferences
[02:20:52] <cradek> I have a Dell Inspiron laptop with WinXP Pro SP2 installed and I was attempting to resize a partition on it using Partition Magic in order to install Linux when the power on my laptop ran out and it shut down without any warning mid-process. Now I cannot reboot into WinXP
[02:21:04] <cradek> ^^ wow, if there was ever a thing to not do on battery power, that's it
[02:22:08] <jmkasunich> hoo boy
[02:22:19] <jmkasunich> I guess thats one way to move to a better operating system
[02:22:35] <cradek> "when was your last backup?" </always my answer in those situations>
[02:22:47] <jmkasunich> "the day before never"
[02:23:04] <cradek> yeah
[02:24:21] <jmkasunich> i resisted.....
[02:24:25] <cradek> ?
[02:24:33] <jmkasunich> my reply to fengli
[02:24:56] <jmkasunich> I so wanted to say "if you have to ask this question, you can't write a gui"
[02:24:58] <skunkworks> cradek: what model inspiron?
[02:25:21] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: I don't think cradek is the one who did that
[02:25:25] <cradek> skunkworks: it's a post from a forum
[02:25:31] <skunkworks> oh
[02:25:33] <skunkworks> oops
[02:25:41] <jmkasunich> he wouldn't be so foolish as to use windows in the first place
[02:25:43] <cradek> skunkworks: I don't use windows, and I'm not dumb enough to do something like that on battery :-)
[02:25:52] <cradek> and I make backups!
[02:25:55] <skunkworks> I was wondering..
[02:25:59] <cradek> yay me
[02:26:18] <cradek> * cradek pats /me on the back
[02:26:32] <jmkasunich> don't dislocate yer elbow there...
[02:27:40] <jmkasunich> does this website look as fscked up on your screens as it does on mine? http://www.geocachingbullets.com/
[02:28:21] <cradek> looks ok.
[02:28:33] <jmkasunich> the text isn't screwy?
[02:28:33] <skunkworks> guy at work dislocated his shoulder by flipping a quad runner. He went to the hospital and had it popped back in. was given directions and a sling. got home - decided that he didn;t need the sling. promply popped the shoulder back out. back to the hospital he went.
[02:28:41] <cradek> nope
[02:29:04] <cradek> skunkworks: I'm happy all my joints have stayed together so far...
[02:29:22] <cradek> that seems so freaky
[02:29:32] <skunkworks> same here.
[02:29:36] <cradek> I guess I'm still squeamish about being made of meat
[02:30:06] <skunkworks> humans are meat containers? ;)
[02:30:20] <cradek> yes, freaky isn't it
[02:30:33] <skunkworks> ok - time for bed - night guys.
[02:30:53] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gb.png this is how it looks to me
[02:31:13] <jmkasunich> (the site belongs to my doze using html illiterate brother
[02:32:09] <cradek> that's surprisingly bad
[02:32:24] <jmkasunich> it was even worse on my 150dpi laptop
[02:32:28] <jmkasunich> text scaling issues
[02:32:41] <cradek> yeah I'm 75dpi on this laptop
[02:32:43] <jmkasunich> he used some horrible piece of crap authoring tool
[02:32:51] <cradek> yeah obviously
[02:32:54] <jmkasunich> that used fixed pixel locations for everything!
[02:33:51] <cradek> yeah through some miracle my default text setting looks ok
[02:34:01] <cradek> of course, it goes to hell if I enlarge or reduce it
[02:34:20] <jmkasunich> the sad thing is, they're proud of their crap:
[02:34:22] <jmkasunich> " <table><tr><td><h1>Header Goes Here</h1></td></tr><tr><td>main body of page</td></tr><tr><td>footer goes here</td></tr></table>
[04:01:11] <ds3> Hmmmmm
[04:01:17] <jmkasunich> I know tables (thats one of the few things I do know)
[04:01:30] <Jymm> One column, three rows -----> <table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=2><tr><td><h1>Header Goes Here</h1></td></tr><tr><td>main body of page</td></tr><tr><td>footer goes here</td></tr></table>
[04:01:37] <Jymm> flip those
[04:02:25] <jmkasunich> I used a table already, for the heading and the bullet pic
[04:02:30] <Jymm> jmkasunich Yes, but instead of having a zillion <font> tgs, just one css tag
[04:02:48] <jmkasunich> ok, I might change to css after I read up on it
[04:02:58] <jmkasunich> I'm more interested in the layout issues at the moment
[04:04:13] <jmkasunich> want to keep the basic layout (images and text kind of zigzagging down the page
[04:04:28] <jmkasunich> but I'm gonna merge both pages, and put the ordering info at the bottom
[04:04:38] <ds3> please don't use CSS
[04:04:42] <ds3> CSS == the devil
[04:08:54] <toastydeath> lol how is css the devil
[04:13:03] <ds3> it is a tool used by ad pushers
[04:13:15] <ds3> CSS should be discouraged so any CSS will flag an ad pusher
[04:13:42] <toastydeath> uh
[04:13:56] <toastydeath> that's an interesting reason to supress a very flexible tool
[04:14:52] <ds3> it is a good reason
[04:14:57] <ds3> same reason why IFRAMES should never be used
[04:15:11] <ds3> damn pop overs needs to DIE
[04:15:44] <toastydeath> iframes are annoying
[04:15:53] <toastydeath> you can build an effective website that is easy to change with css
[04:16:39] <ds3> BAH
[04:16:58] <ds3> have it preprocessed through perl, etc and keep the original maintainable
[04:17:09] <ds3> what's more CSS's are great for breaking device independance
[04:17:26] <ds3> i.e. the wikipedia CSS royally blows up on the Treo
[04:17:35] <toastydeath> i don't think we'll be swaying the entire web design/development industry anytime soon
[04:17:49] <toastydeath> i'll certainly be using it anytime I build a webpage
[04:18:26] <ds3> and I will certainly be filtering it out of any page =)
[04:19:05] <toastydeath> then we have an accord!
[04:22:30] <Jymm> jmkasunich save as test.html http://pastebin.ca/424987
[04:24:57] <jmkasunich> done
[04:25:17] <jmkasunich> I guess I could just have two tall columns, and mix text and pics in each
[04:26:06] <jmkasunich> why is the right column wider than the left?
[04:26:21] <jmkasunich> (seems to hold true no matter how wide I make the window
[04:28:01] <toastydeath> unless you give it rules to set it
[04:28:10] <toastydeath> it will pick sizes based on what's inside the thingers
[04:28:28] <jmkasunich> I guess the picture biases it towards the right column then
[04:28:40] <jmkasunich> even when both columns are much wider than the pic
[04:29:45] <toastydeath> width="50%"
[04:29:49] <toastydeath> in the <td> element
[04:29:53] <toastydeath> the first time it appears
[04:29:56] <toastydeath> for that column.
[04:32:14] <Jymm> jmkasunich it's based upon the content of the cell.
[04:32:43] <Jymm> less text == less width =)
[04:33:09] <toastydeath> or you set the width element in the <tr> tag
[04:33:13] <toastydeath> to a percentage =(
[04:33:28] <toastydeath> er
[04:33:28] <toastydeath> td
[04:33:29] <toastydeath> <td>
[04:33:43] <Jymm> unless you do as was suggested
[04:33:53] <Jymm> toastydeath calm down, I'm getting there =)
[04:34:03] <toastydeath> * toastydeath hyperventilates
[04:34:32] <Jymm> * Jymm bags toastydeath.... now paper or plastic???
[04:34:54] <toastydeath> hahah.
[04:36:48] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[04:36:55] <ds3> PLASTIC!!!
[04:37:32] <jmkasunich> I just love Cleveland weather.... I just took the dog out. Yesterday we had shirtsleeve weather (70ish F), tonight there's 2" of snow on the ground
[04:39:01] <Jymm> jmkasunich: http://pastebin.ca/425000
[04:40:56] <jmkasunich> I see, thanks
[04:46:55] <Jymm> jmkasunich http://pastebin.ca/425008
[04:47:40] <jmkasunich> lines 5-15 are the stylesheet?
[04:48:55] <Jymm> Yeah, if you choose to use them.... just a lil css only doing font and colors
[04:49:04] <Jymm> oh and alignment
[04:49:56] <jmkasunich> since you named them after existing things (body, h3, p) they apply to those things, right? but I could also name them foo and bar?
[04:49:57] <Jymm> if yu want to see what it looks like w/o the css, just rename <style> to <sty> and it'll disable it
[04:50:28] <Jymm> jmkasunich If you have <div name="foo"></div> in your content, yes.
[04:50:43] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:51:32] <Jymm> body in the stylesheet applys to EVERYTHING between <body> and </body>, unless overwritten by another tag, such as <p></p>
[04:51:44] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:51:52] <jmkasunich> thats the "cascading" part, eh?
[04:52:08] <Jymm> yeah, pretty much =)
[04:55:47] <Jymm> If you want ideas.... http://www.oswd.org/
[04:56:23] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna try to keep the basic look that he already had
[04:56:27] <Jymm> that should give you an idea on what css can do, YMMV
[04:56:38] <jmkasunich> right
[04:57:03] <Jymm> CSS is nice, if you keep it basic (like not using it for layout)
[04:57:16] <jmkasunich> I can see that
[04:57:27] <Jymm> gets rid of those gawd awefule <font></font> tags all over the place
[04:59:09] <Jymm> jmkasunich Now, this is THE EXTREME of CSS ---> http://www.csszengarden.com/
[04:59:33] <jmkasunich> pretty
[04:59:46] <Jymm> jmkasunich The content on EVERY PAGE is the same, just different style sheets that people have submitted.
[04:59:58] <jmkasunich> you know, I think my blog uses CSS, and I've even tweaked it some, just didn't realize it at the time
[05:00:15] <Jymm> jmkasunich no no you need to look at zen garden again
[05:00:21] <Jymm> click th elicks on the right
[05:00:29] <jmkasunich> I see
[05:00:34] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich boggles
[05:04:34] <Jymm> jmkasunich anyhoo... Just thought I'd give you a small sample of CSS since you're working on html right now.
[05:05:05] <jmkasunich> thanks
[05:05:15] <jmkasunich> I've added styles to the file
[05:05:32] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/sb.html is the working copy, changes every few minutes
[05:06:08] <Jymm> get rid of this, looks like crap ---> LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0
[05:06:52] <jmkasunich> is there any way to say "render with a minimum width of X" (and side scroll if the window is narrower than X)
[05:07:09] <jmkasunich> (I'm trying with a table, but a width spec on the body seems more natural
[05:07:15] <Jymm> you WANT to scroll left and right?
[05:07:31] <jmkasunich> only if they have a narrow window - less than 700 pixels or so
[05:08:21] <jmkasunich> if they make the window 450 pix, and a picture is 300, that means the text is crammed into 150 pixels - you get one or two words per line and it looks awful
[05:08:42] <jmkasunich> if they make the window 1000, I want to use it all
[05:08:52] <jmkasunich> just scroll if its narrower than some minimum
[05:09:01] <Jymm> if they make the window 400, not your problem - really.
[05:09:22] <jmkasunich> I guess
[05:09:31] <jmkasunich> I can also worry about that later
[05:09:37] <jmkasunich> chop hack
[05:09:55] <Jymm> you gotta have working area even if they resize there window to 20x20
[05:10:13] <Jymm> I go a min of 800x600 usually, others go higher
[05:10:38] <Jymm> once in a while I go 640x480 as min depending on the site content
[05:10:47] <Jymm> but that' spushing it
[05:10:49] <Jymm> pushing
[05:11:32] <ds3> sigh
[05:11:52] <ds3> that is so annoying
[05:12:17] <toastydeath> it also depends on who the website is for
[05:12:21] <toastydeath> wait, you said that
[05:12:25] <toastydeath> great, i'm retarded
[05:12:41] <toastydeath> i would go for 640 wide on this website
[05:12:54] <toastydeath> because i don't think it's really geared toward a traditionally web-savvy demographic
[05:13:59] <ds3> designing for a specific screen size is just a bad idea; that's just declaring war on mobile people
[05:14:27] <toastydeath> you need to determine if you want your stuff to be well-designed for full screen
[05:14:38] <toastydeath> or if you need a compromise for mobile stuff
[05:14:57] <toastydeath> designing to a set width allows you to enforce good typesetting practices
[05:15:11] <toastydeath> and makes your stuff far easier to read
[05:15:50] <ds3> it should designed so people choose how they want it to look depending on their device, i.e, the browser should determine the actual formating
[05:16:03] <ds3> that way, it will work fine on any device, anywhere
[05:16:17] <toastydeath> and it makes it less readable
[05:16:41] <toastydeath> that's why professional web designers design to a set width most of the time
[05:16:48] <toastydeath> so they can enforce typesetting
[05:17:39] <ds3> guess we have philosphical differences there
[05:17:49] <toastydeath> i don't think this is a philosophical difference
[05:17:51] <ds3> a page can be device independant and completely readable
[05:18:27] <ds3> you seem to believe the page designer should know about the rendering device; I completely disagree. A page should be completely agnostic of the rendering device.
[05:18:51] <toastydeath> no, i'm saying the designer needs to pick a set of objectives
[05:19:18] <toastydeath> and very frequently, device independence is not a goal at all
[05:19:25] <ds3> I don't see there as being any valid objective other then device independance
[05:19:43] <toastydeath> erm
[05:19:54] <toastydeath> huh?
[05:20:04] <toastydeath> the only objective you can possibly have for a webpage is to have it viewable on any device?
[05:20:24] <ds3> yes, that is, IMO, the whole point of a web page.
[05:20:29] <ds3> if you want control, go with something like PDF
[05:20:37] <toastydeath> erm
[05:20:46] <jmkasunich> Jymm: can you tell me why my "st1" style isn't being applied to the "Ask about our temporary...." line?
[05:21:04] <toastydeath> things like keeping people on the webpage, developing trust, and ease of readership take a lot more prescidence
[05:21:15] <toastydeath> than the minority of people trying to read it on a mobile device
[05:21:50] <toastydeath> for most designers, anyway.
[05:21:53] <ds3> proper content is more important for developing trust
[05:21:55] <jmkasunich> I gotta disagree there - HTML is intended to be portable - if you want a fixed look, use pdf
[05:22:15] <toastydeath> that's kind of silly
[05:22:15] <ds3> mobile device and the minority issue is a chicken and egg problem
[05:22:19] <toastydeath> pdf is incredibly inconvinient
[05:22:22] <Jymm> jmkasunich when I said "sty" that BREAKS the <style></style> paired tags, then the browser ignores that part.
[05:22:26] <ds3> designers are doing there best to complete screw over mobile users
[05:22:37] <jmkasunich> st1 is a style name
[05:22:39] <ds3> so there aren't that many
[05:22:41] <toastydeath> designers are doing their best to be the most appealing possible to the largest demographic
[05:22:50] <Jymm> jmkasunich same url?
[05:23:01] <jmkasunich> yes
[05:23:02] <ds3> take bestbuy.com for example.... it is completely unusable on a portable device
[05:23:09] <Jymm> jmkasunich btw ty for removeing the margin tags =)
[05:23:14] <toastydeath> and they don't care if it's usable on a portable device
[05:23:32] <toastydeath> because the vast majority of their users are not on portable devices
[05:23:56] <ds3> and that's fine with me... I goto their competitor's site to do a search for stores near me since they are not willing to help me find their stores
[05:24:02] <toastydeath> and that's fine
[05:24:10] <toastydeath> because they make more money by excluding you
[05:24:51] <toastydeath> a fundimental tenet of good business - exclude the people who would cost you more money to attract than you make by attracting them
[05:25:04] <ds3> if you want to believe that so be it ;) seeing how they are being sued for playing games with their web site
[05:25:30] <toastydeath> best buy is one site out of many
[05:25:35] <toastydeath> that follow that principle
[05:25:58] <ds3> on the other end of the scale, there is amazon
[05:26:09] <ds3> actually trying to help make their content more accessible
[05:26:11] <toastydeath> don't they have a seperate webpage for portable devices?
[05:26:23] <toastydeath> that's what I would do, if I wanted to support portability
[05:26:40] <ds3> bestbuy does not; amazon has a seperate web page but their normal one works okay; just loads a bit slower due to more graphics
[05:27:28] <toastydeath> yeah
[05:29:51] <ds3> and that has proven itself to be quite useful for price comparisms in another store
[05:30:19] <toastydeath> i don't doubt that you find tremendous use in that
[05:31:08] <ds3> beyond all this there is also a debate (think there are law suits in progress) on the legality of such pages
[05:31:27] <toastydeath> there are lawsuits regarding accessability
[05:31:32] <toastydeath> for large corporations subject to such laws
[05:31:39] <ds3> yep
[05:32:37] <toastydeath> but a small web business with only one person, or a couple employees
[05:32:40] <toastydeath> are excempt from those laws
[05:33:16] <toastydeath> that is a side note, more than anything else
[05:33:26] <ds3> *nod*
[05:36:19] <toastydeath> and to be more fair, typesetting is only real important on webpages where the text is of heavy importance
[05:36:23] <toastydeath> blogs, etc
[05:49:43] <Jymm> bbiab foodage
[07:27:24] <jmkasunich> well, I declare it done: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/sb.html
[07:33:18] <alex_joni> go to bed :P
[07:34:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: looks a tiny bit odd on my widescreen display, but for regular people it's way better than before
[07:34:58] <alex_joni> and btw, the old one looked terrible to me too (~128dpi here)
[07:35:25] <Jymm> jmkasunich s/temporary/limited time/
[07:36:42] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yeah, if you stretch it really wide it gets kinda bad
[07:37:33] <jmkasunich> but his target market is ordinary people, not computer jockies - they'll have lower res screens
[07:38:17] <jmkasunich> Jymm: I agree, but I don't want to change his words - I only fixed the formatting
[07:38:31] <Jymm> k
[07:39:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: 1680 wide here..
[07:39:52] <alex_joni> it's an odd product...
[07:39:56] <jmkasunich> it would be nice to be able to tell it "render this page no more than 1024 pixels wide, if the screen is wider, put white stripes down the sides
[07:40:25] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yes, it is - but apparently my brother has sold a few hundred
[07:40:28] <alex_joni> you can do that with css... but you don't want to go there
[07:40:36] <alex_joni> good for him
[07:43:52] <Jymm> jmkasunich: If you left the table I created for you originally, you could of done that.
[07:44:23] <jmkasunich> tables have a width, not a min or max width (I think?)
[07:44:40] <Jymm> Width="1024"
[07:45:01] <jmkasunich> understood - but that means its _always_ 1024
[07:45:12] <alex_joni> not if you rescale it smaller
[07:45:14] <jmkasunich> if they are viewing on a narrower screen they need to side-scroll
[07:45:28] <alex_joni> nope, browsers try to be "intelligent"
[07:45:34] <jmkasunich> oh
[07:45:34] <alex_joni> at least most of them..
[07:45:54] <jmkasunich> well, its rediculously late here - I'm not gonna mess with it any more tonight
[07:46:03] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: agreed..
[07:46:16] <alex_joni> you could however reply to Fengli
[07:46:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hides
[07:46:30] <jmkasunich> I did that once already
[07:46:33] <jmkasunich> your turn
[07:46:46] <alex_joni> ouch :D
[07:48:30] <alex_joni> I like the way he used about 3 different fontsizes in that email :D
[07:54:53] <jmkasunich> goodnight all
[07:55:00] <jmkasunich> thanks everyone for the HTML help
[10:06:11] <Rugludallur> morning
[10:18:17] <anonimasu> hi
[11:27:50] <alex_joni> hi
[11:30:51] <anonimasu> what
[11:30:52] <anonimasu> 's
[11:30:53] <anonimasu> up?
[11:34:59] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: up is a vector which can be defined as originating from the center of the earth and intersecting the observers referrence point on the earths crust
[11:37:04] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: Well, I dont give a shit about vectors..
[11:37:07] <anonimasu> :D
[11:37:19] <anonimasu> what's up with you?
[11:37:19] <anonimasu> where's your vector pointing?
[11:37:44] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I finally have some time for the plasma stuff, easter vacation started today :D
[11:37:52] <anonimasu> ince
[11:37:54] <anonimasu> mine
[11:37:58] <anonimasu> 's supposed to start now
[11:38:09] <anonimasu> but I guess I have a few hours of work..
[11:38:30] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: how's the table working out ?
[11:38:47] <alex_joni> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070401.html hahahahaha
[11:39:04] <anonimasu> nicely
[11:39:18] <anonimasu> though we need to replace the bents with a screw..
[11:39:21] <anonimasu> they flex too much..
[11:39:42] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: it's not a problem, but for everything to be perfect
[11:39:45] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: I think NASA people have to much spare time
[11:40:02] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: how long are the belts ?
[11:40:20] <anonimasu> about 2m..
[11:40:27] <anonimasu> 2.5 I think..
[11:40:33] <anonimasu> err rail length..
[11:40:34] <anonimasu> ;)
[11:40:42] <anonimasu> the belt length is double..
[11:40:49] <anonimasu> 4m or something
[11:40:49] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: ahh, well you could also look at using kevlar polyurethane belts
[11:41:02] <anonimasu> hm, yeah, maybe..
[11:41:13] <anonimasu> acme threaded screws are cheap
[11:41:14] <anonimasu> :)
[11:41:19] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: true :D
[11:41:29] <anonimasu> and with a homebrew anti backslash nut..
[11:41:29] <anonimasu> ;)
[11:42:12] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I have a couple of kensington lab stages here, they are mostly used for cpu wafer work and such, they have a really wierd split plastic screw for anti-backlash
[11:42:30] <anonimasu> got a picture?
[11:42:39] <Rugludallur> anonimasu:hmm I might have one , just a sec
[11:42:41] <anonimasu> you made me really curious
[11:44:51] <Rugludallur> http://dallur.com/fileadmin/user_upload/100_4761.jpg
[11:44:56] <Rugludallur> that's a picture of a broken one
[11:45:02] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I have been looking for replacements
[11:45:39] <Rugludallur> http://dallur.com/fileadmin/user_upload/100_4767.jpg
[11:54:29] <anonimasu> fancy
[11:54:53] <anonimasu> well, I guess thoose wouldnt be impossible to make..
[11:55:00] <anonimasu> with a cnc lathe.. ;)
[11:55:05] <anonimasu> and a mill..
[11:55:10] <anonimasu> and a edm machine, for the mold..
[11:56:20] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: lol :D
[12:00:07] <anonimasu> seriously you can probably turn one on a lathe..
[12:00:16] <anonimasu> then split it with a saw..
[12:00:23] <anonimasu> drill holes and then split it..
[12:00:38] <anonimasu> I've seen thoose before..
[12:12:16] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: It would be possible, but I only have a manual lathe and getting those internal threads right would be quite hard
[12:12:40] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: it's not as hard as you think
[12:12:44] <anonimasu> not nearly
[12:13:16] <anonimasu> I turned lots of threads for my spindle by manual..
[12:13:38] <anonimasu> it just takes quite a bit of work to get the dimensions all right..
[12:14:16] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I might try it when/if I have use for those stages
[12:15:16] <anonimasu> :)
[12:44:05] <alex_joni> http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_4.htm
[12:50:58] <skunkworks> I had heard a little about that
[12:52:16] <skunkworks> alex_joni: 24usd at the local store - works pretty good considering :) http://youtube.com/watch?v=XjG2gZFRXSs
[12:55:47] <alex_joni> cool.. I want one too :P
[12:56:43] <skunkworks> might have to buy another one just in case ;) it has a li-po battery in it and is charged by the controller.
[13:54:30] <jackc> jackc is now known as crepincdotcom`
[16:17:39] <maddash> is EMCIO realtime or not?
[16:17:53] <maddash> cause of my confusion: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMCTask
[16:20:42] <tomp> good question. i dont have the exact answer, only an impression that data gathering >is not< realtime, and execution of position control >is< realtime.
[17:45:37] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[17:50:36] <Rugludallur> Anyone have any nifty ideas on how to implement a time delay on for a mux in hal ?
[17:54:31] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: calculate primes..
[17:57:15] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: lol
[17:57:34] <tomp> keep what ever logic you have, but OR the output with a new component that is a comparator fed by a stepgen like pulse stream, and given a threshold. th eout put is only valid after n counts
[17:57:47] <tomp> ( delay by n counts)
[17:57:58] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I don't want to halt execution, I want to do something in a certain time
[17:58:13] <Rugludallur> tomp: hmm then the time would depend on the period of the thead right ?
[17:58:35] <tomp> yep ( all just thoughts )
[17:58:34] <Rugludallur> tomp: well if there is a threshhold that would make it work all right
[17:58:56] <tomp> comparator has threshold
[17:59:03] <Rugludallur> tomp: If I can make a count down timer I can throw away the classicladder stuff I have for the plasma config
[17:59:18] <Rugludallur> tomp: I can also use a freqgen and set a max
[17:59:45] <tomp> nice, i'd work on a bit of it with you, but dont know which bit
[18:00:08] <Rugludallur> tomp: let me upload a snapshot of the current design
[18:00:12] <tomp> great
[18:02:28] <Rugludallur> http://imagebin.org/7991
[18:03:01] <Rugludallur> tomp: bahh it was cut a bit short, i'll re-export
[18:10:04] <Rugludallur> tomp: http://imagebin.org/7993
[18:10:36] <tomp> wow!
[18:11:02] <tomp> what did you use for the graph?
[18:11:28] <Rugludallur> tomp: Openoffice Draw
[18:11:34] <tomp> very nice
[18:12:00] <Rugludallur> tomp: It's come a long way, now it's getting better than Visio and it's ages ahead of Dia
[18:12:34] <tomp> it'll take me a while to understand it fer sure. i was redrawing your old stuff, you saved me a lot of time with this :)
[18:13:23] <Rugludallur> tomp: This is quite a bit different from the old stuff, simplified and replaced most of the classicladder stuff with hal
[18:14:15] <tomp> Rugludallur: yep, you been busy
[18:14:37] <Rugludallur> tomp: to bad I don't have more time, should have finished this 3 weeks ago but work keeps getting in my way
[18:14:39] <Rugludallur> tomp :D
[18:16:03] <tomp> i was just packing all your old files onto a cf chip for a session with a laptop, just to look at your stuff. might you post the oo draw file sometime?
[18:17:57] <Rugludallur> sure, I will post everything when ready but if you want I can upload right now
[18:19:03] <tomp> Rugludallur: yes, please, just the source for that image you pastbin'd.
[18:19:37] <Rugludallur> http://dallur.com/fileadmin/user_upload/NewPlasmaDesign.odg
[18:20:12] <tomp> got it. thank you
[18:20:46] <Rugludallur> no prob
[18:22:18] <tomp> opens fine :)
[18:33:07] <tomp> it's even nicer than i first thought. you spent a lot of time on this. I think your monitor might be a bit larger than my 1280x1024 17" diagonal lcd ;)
[18:34:48] <tomp> heck, when i saved it to the desktop, the icon is even a transparent mini-image , cool
[18:35:39] <tomp> (sorry that was an svg dup i made) :-[
[18:36:56] <rcsu> hi *
[18:37:01] <tomp> stop that noise!
[18:37:26] <tomp> yes that one!
[18:37:28] <rcsu> tomp: i hope you dont mean me ;)
[18:37:41] <tomp> no, erDiZz
[18:37:45] <erDiZz> wha? :)
[18:38:08] <erDiZz> * erDiZz was just messing with IRC client, over now
[18:38:11] <tomp> you make a noise when you enter ytou make a noise when you leave, then you you come in out in ouit in ouit ;)
[18:40:49] <erDiZz> erDiZz is now known as erdizz
[18:41:44] <tomp> erdizz, no problem, i just keep my volume way up so the system can read the emails to me when i am away
[18:42:41] <erdizz> tomp, no, there _is the problem_, don't try to decoy :)
[18:43:35] <tomp> Rugludallur: i'm packing your file up and headed for the forrest, thanks
[18:46:34] <tomp> Rugludallur: if your technique works ( feeding present position back into correct position and using non-emc position commands), then you've solved a lot of whats needed for a 'rack' type tool changer :)
[18:48:38] <Rugludallur> tomp: that part works fine :D
[18:48:48] <Rugludallur> tomp: have a good journey
[19:26:54] <Rugludallur> I'm thinking about creating a new hal component, a "mux2" which switches based on a timer. Any thoughts or suggestions ?
[19:27:34] <cradek> since we already have a mux2, I think you should make the simplest block (timer only) instead
[19:28:40] <Rugludallur> cradek: makes sense, just a float input time and bit out 0/1 ?
[19:30:16] <cradek> yeah, input time, reset or enable input, output?
[19:30:46] <cradek> output goes high [time] after enable goes high
[19:32:30] <cradek> time would be rounded (floor? ceil?) to a multiple of periods
[19:32:55] <Rugludallur> cradek: input time (float), input, output makes sense
[19:33:03] <cradek> if you had [time] in periods instead, the block would not require fp
[19:33:18] <Rugludallur> cradek: hmm that would save cpu
[19:33:25] <cradek> but I think most of hal is moving toward using times, and round/floor/ceil to periods
[19:34:14] <cradek> would time time be a pin or param?
[19:34:38] <cradek> if it's a pin, you have to think about all the ways it can change while the timer is already running
[19:34:39] <Rugludallur> cradek: I have not thought it through
[19:34:46] <cradek> yeah me either :-)
[19:34:56] <cradek> just brainstorming
[19:35:17] <Rugludallur> cradek: I just started looking at implementing a timer with freqgen and counter and it's just to ugly
[19:35:39] <cradek> yeah that seems unnecessarily evil
[19:36:41] <cradek> oh hey did you see oneshot?
[19:37:37] <Rugludallur> cradek: I have not looked at it no
[19:37:45] <cradek> I bet it does what you want
[19:38:25] <Rugludallur> cradek: hmm im reading the html doc as we speak
[19:42:42] <Rugludallur> cradek: oneshot does everything I need and more, thanks :D
[19:42:48] <cradek> yay
[19:42:58] <Rugludallur> cradek: the doc is a bit cryptic at first though
[19:43:34] <cradek> Rugludallur: patches gratefully accepted!
[19:43:43] <cradek> hi jmk
[19:43:45] <Rugludallur> cradek :D
[19:43:52] <jmk2> Rugludallur: regarding a delay...
[19:44:12] <jmk2> there are some components that could be used already
[19:44:12] <Rugludallur> jmk2: yup
[19:44:26] <jmk2> debounce
[19:44:28] <Rugludallur> jmk2: cradek just pointed me towards oneshot, which seems to be able to do everything I need
[19:44:35] <jmk2> integ + comparator
[19:44:41] <jmk2> oneshot ;-)
[19:46:12] <maddash> is there some doc that lays out the architecture of emc?
[19:46:22] <ejholmgren> http://www.jcrocket.com/nike-asp.shtml
[19:46:33] <ejholmgren> that is one huge f'ing model rocket
[19:46:49] <jmk2> maddash - not really all in one place and easy to follow
[19:47:23] <ejholmgren> cradek around?
[19:47:24] <jmk2> there is http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Home.htm
[19:47:32] <jmk2> which is somewhat out of date.....
[19:48:35] <ejholmgren> * ejholmgren hollers, "Oooohhhh craaaaaaadek ...."
[19:48:50] <maddash> jmk2: it's not so easy to follow
[19:49:04] <jmk2> I never said it was :-)
[19:49:12] <maddash> jmk2: not when there's documentation that contradicts itsef
[19:49:16] <maddash> 15:46:46 <jmk2> maddash - not really all in one place and easy to follo
[19:49:25] <maddash> eg http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMCTask
[19:50:14] <maddash> is emcmot realtime or not?
[19:50:51] <jmk2> emcmot is the old name of the motion controller
[19:50:59] <jmk2> now called motmod, and yes, its realtime
[19:51:32] <jmk2> src/emc/motion is the main source for motmod, plus code that is pulled in from src/emc/kinematics
[19:51:36] <maddash> "In the four modules of EMC, only EMCMOT is a realtime module. The other three,i.e. EMCTask,EMCMOT and GUI, are non-realtime modules."
[19:51:39] <maddash> wtf?
[19:51:58] <cradek> that's not great writing, is it
[19:52:01] <jmk2> probably a typo
[19:52:06] <maddash> what about emcio?
[19:52:21] <jmk2> I think the second mention of emcmot was supposed to be emcio
[19:52:28] <maddash> jmk2: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Control_LG.gif <--- how outdated is that?
[19:52:41] <jmk2> there are dates on the first page
[19:52:46] <jmk2> 2003
[19:53:10] <maddash> so how different is that from 2.1?
[19:53:45] <jmk2> well, 2003 had no HAL at all
[19:53:58] <maddash> hm, seems like it neglects emcsh, which bypasses the emctask system
[19:54:10] <jmk2> emcio is now called iocontrol, spindle stuff is in motion now, not iocontrol
[19:54:28] <jmk2> emcsh doesn't bypass task
[19:54:42] <jmk2> its the interface between task an the tcl guis
[19:55:20] <jmk2> (think of the box labeled GUI as being split in half. the bottom half is C (or C++) and talks NML to task
[19:55:32] <jmk2> the top half is tkemc or mini - Tcl code, and talks to the bottom half
[19:56:03] <lerneaen_hydra> ejholmgren: that sure is one big ass rocket!
[20:05:22] <ejholmgren> yeah
[20:05:29] <ejholmgren> once they're more than 6' ...
[20:05:39] <ejholmgren> it's hard to call it a "model" anymore
[20:05:57] <toastydeath> that's what she sais
[20:05:59] <toastydeath> *said
[20:06:26] <ejholmgren> O_o
[20:07:02] <maddash> tell me if i got this right: emcsvr is first launched to initialize the appropriate RCS channels through which the NML msgs will flow. the GUIs (inside emc2/src/emc/usr_intf) take their commands from the user, and send the appropriate NML messages. emctaskmain receives these messages, and interacts accordingly with motmod.
[20:07:26] <jmk2> thats it I think
[20:07:40] <jmk2> (my real area of expertise is motmod and below)
[20:15:12] <lerneaen_hydra> jmk2: who are you? jmk's clone? or backup perhaps? :p
[20:18:29] <jmk2> clone
[20:19:04] <jmk2> the real jmk is at work
[20:20:05] <cradek> which one of you watches the irc logs for something interesting to happen?
[20:20:36] <jmk2> "watch" isn't quite the word
[20:20:45] <Rugludallur> cradek: I think they have an AI for that
[20:20:51] <alex_joni> hi guys
[20:21:03] <toastydeath> "piped into a terminal running cat" is the correct word
[20:22:45] <alex_joni> cradek: I usually watch for highlighting stuff
[20:23:05] <jmk2> I happpened to look at the web based log....
[20:29:35] <jmk2> jmk2 is now known as jmk-original
[20:29:51] <jmk-original> damn clone.... I told him to stay off the internet!
[20:30:22] <lerneaen_hydra> omg! the clone was posing as the original jmk!
[20:30:31] <lerneaen_hydra> "jmk2 is now known as jmk-original"
[20:39:14] <ejholmgren> cradek: when you got sim running on ppc, was that in linux?
[20:39:35] <cradek> yes
[20:40:04] <cradek> just build cvs trunk. I committed the changes
[20:40:21] <maddash> how do i purge all traces of mist coolant from emc?
[20:40:23] <ejholmgren> what test system were you running it on?
[20:40:37] <cradek> a 300 MHz iBook ca 1999
[20:40:53] <cradek> maddash: if you use AXIS the checkbutton disappears if you don't hook mist to anything in HAL
[20:43:04] <ejholmgren> g3?
[20:43:17] <cradek> yes I think so
[20:43:21] <ejholmgren> ouch ;)
[20:43:33] <cradek> it actually runs pretty nice
[20:43:39] <ejholmgren> which wm
[20:43:45] <cradek> icewm
[20:43:48] <ejholmgren> ah
[20:44:04] <ejholmgren> I was running debian on one of my g4's for a while
[20:44:18] <ejholmgren> but both kde and gnome were slow as balls
[20:44:50] <ejholmgren> both of the g4's are sitting in the basement w/o hds and ram now
[20:45:10] <cradek> are those laptops? (I don't know squat about macs)
[20:45:16] <ejholmgren> towers
[20:45:27] <ejholmgren> g4 sawtooths, 400mhz
[20:45:40] <ejholmgren> decent systems
[20:45:42] <cradek> ah
[20:45:57] <ejholmgren> but work was throwing away an 800mhz quicksilver g4 ...
[20:46:12] <ejholmgren> for some ungodly reason, so I'm usin that now
[20:47:16] <ejholmgren> although ... I suppose if you can afford to subsidize your software with hardware prices
[20:47:57] <ejholmgren> it's easy to pay the devs mucho moolah to make sure that your prop wm runs smoother than anything on comparable hardware
[20:48:05] <ejholmgren> damn apple
[20:49:03] <cradek> I was impressed by how responsive X is on that iBook
[20:49:22] <cradek> I didn't want gnome because it probably doesn't have the ram to run it comfortably
[20:49:23] <cradek> (128 I think)
[20:49:33] <cradek> but for traditional X, that's perfectly fine
[20:50:02] <cradek> suspend, both network interfaces (wireless & wired), etc - everything works great on it
[20:50:09] <cradek> better than I can say about my intel laptop
[20:50:19] <ejholmgren> the ppc's def have nuts for the clock speeds they run at
[20:50:32] <ejholmgren> good harware too, not half assed
[20:51:37] <ejholmgren> * ejholmgren weeps
[20:51:47] <ejholmgren> I miss my sun ultra 2
[21:21:21] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: the same algorithm should take the same time under the same load ;)
[21:28:47] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: huh ?
[21:29:16] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: you asked for a delay..
[21:29:27] <anonimasu> how would calculating a prime yeild a locked up system?
[21:29:47] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: just put a cap on memory usage and kill it off when your delay's big enough ;)
[21:29:54] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: ahh my point was that I did not want to waste cpu cycles, I wanted to delay an action and do other things while it was waiting
[21:30:05] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: after all you asked for a nifty idea..
[21:30:16] <anonimasu> how is calculating a prime a waste of cpu cycles :/
[21:30:18] <anonimasu> *cry*
[21:30:37] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: Why dont you use a GXX p5 for delays?
[21:30:55] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: I were just kidding you asked for something nifty ;)
[21:31:28] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: :) This is actually for the pierce delay, so you can adjust how long you want to wait before starting a cut after the torch is turned on
[21:31:42] <anonimasu> I use PXX for pierce delay..
[21:31:45] <anonimasu> the delay gcode..
[21:32:06] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I prefer to leave such things out of the gcode
[21:32:11] <anonimasu> err gXX p
[21:32:29] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: well, you are free to complicate things..
[21:32:30] <anonimasu> :)
[21:32:59] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: It can always be turned off if the delay is already in the gcode
[21:33:56] <anonimasu> how do you know when to pierce?
[21:34:13] <anonimasu> or are you assigning a macro with a GXX for piercing?
[21:35:39] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: spindle-forward is the "torch on"
[21:35:53] <anonimasu> oh ok..
[21:35:58] <anonimasu> you could make a pierce macro..
[21:36:19] <anonimasu> there's macro functionality in the interpreter(somewhere)
[21:36:24] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: when spindle-forward is set to 1, I automatically start a probe sequence to find the plate, set the pierce height and implement the delay
[21:37:12] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: There are a couple of advantages to doing it this way, for example the pierce delay only starts counting after the ArcOK signal is received, and if the arc refuses to strike I trigger an estop
[21:38:55] <anonimasu> I dont see why you cant do that in a macro either.
[21:39:10] <anonimasu> _if_ there was functionality to read hal pins ;)
[21:40:42] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: sorry, im just _pondering_
[21:40:45] <anonimasu> :)
[21:41:04] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: integrator wise that's a easier solution to implement for other kinds of things
[21:42:16] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: what I'm looking for is the most automated solution :D
[21:42:28] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: well, that would be as automated..
[21:42:29] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: and I also want to have the option of manually cutting with the THC
[21:42:43] <anonimasu> that can still be acomplished with that kind of setup..
[21:45:05] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I don't know why but I just feel like THC should be handled transparently
[21:45:15] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: That is transparently.
[21:45:40] <anonimasu> the only thing is that you dont stick the pierce stuff as a big blob in hal..
[21:45:39] <anonimasu> :D
[21:45:47] <anonimasu> all of it atleast ;)
[21:46:09] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I would actually think that running it in hal would be the most efficent way to do it
[21:46:42] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: since it has to be realtime
[21:47:20] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: but I might be wrong on that
[21:48:01] <anonimasu> I may be also :)
[21:48:13] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: did you see the diagram btw ?
[21:48:22] <anonimasu> no I missed it
[21:48:27] <anonimasu> I'm not too hal sawwy..
[21:48:49] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: http://imagebin.org/7993
[21:49:17] <anonimasu> nice
[21:49:31] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: Some/Most of it would have to be in hal in any case, like the Corner Height Lock
[21:49:42] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:49:43] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: it's still work in progress though
[22:16:10] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: Final draft -> http://imagebin.org/8006
[22:22:58] <anonimasu> looks nice
[22:23:22] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: Tomorrow I plan to get it all into config, and then it's testing and debugging over the weekend
[22:47:08] <anonimasu> ok
[22:51:59] <robin_sz> meep?
[22:52:50] <SWPLinux> Rugludallur: what did you use to generate those diagrams?
[23:02:45] <eric_u> graphviz?
[23:03:37] <SWPLinux> it looks too clean for graphviz ;) (IMO)
[23:03:48] <eric_u> does look nice
[23:04:36] <SWPLinux> petev pointed out something obvious: why not make geda schematic symbols, and a halcmd-like parser for geda netlist files?
[23:04:38] <SWPLinux> duh!
[23:04:46] <eric_u> i dunno, looks like something you could do with graphviz
[23:05:38] <SWPLinux> I'm not sure that you can stick other text (like the "17.5 Khz" comment) and the other boxes (like "INI file") wherever you want
[23:05:59] <SWPLinux> it may be possible, but I don't know if it's reasonably easy
[23:07:26] <eric_u> tomp pointed me at a tutorial where they showed how to do that just the other day
[23:08:16] <ds3> wheeeee
[23:08:19] <ds3> that was fun
[23:08:38] <eric_u> the idea behind the tutorial is what you do if you hate powerpoint, and want to use a dot program instead
[23:09:16] <eric_u> and I'm thinking to myself that eating glass is easier
[23:09:50] <SWPLinux> heh
[23:10:01] <SWPLinux> easierthan a dot program or easier than PowerPoint?
[23:10:16] <eric_u> dot
[23:10:21] <SWPLinux> heh^2
[23:10:30] <eric_u> powerpoint is evil, but not that hard
[23:10:54] <SWPLinux> I guess it depends on whether you want to do something nearly identical to an included template or not
[23:11:00] <eric_u> although, making things line up is impossible in pp
[23:11:18] <eric_u> different problem domains
[23:15:25] <eric_u> I swear I had geda on this system, but I must be wrong
[23:15:50] <eric_u> my drawing skills are wretched, I need a cad program
[23:16:38] <renesis> is hot swapping monitors bad?
[23:16:42] <renesis> this one is pissing me off
[23:16:48] <cradek> no
[23:16:59] <renesis> ok ty, ima go do it
[23:18:43] <renesis> heh
[23:18:45] <renesis> yeah fuck this monitor
[23:18:54] <renesis> unplug it and the LED still glow
[23:27:56] <renesis> omg new monitor too
[23:28:09] <renesis> theyre like stuck in power save mode
[23:28:26] <toastydeath> ?
[23:30:23] <renesis> stupid old 15" crts
[23:31:05] <renesis> works when i reboot
[23:31:13] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: revert unintended change, fix 'suspicious line 452' reported by emacs
[23:31:26] <cradek> heh do old crts come that small? :-)
[23:31:51] <renesis> im using the two old 17" for my workstation dual setup
[23:32:08] <renesis> all i have left is two 15", i dunno where i got them
[23:32:21] <renesis> shit
[23:32:33] <cradek> it's amazing how many nice CRTs are around - people are throwing out perfectly good ones and buying LCDs for no reason
[23:32:43] <renesis> is ubuntu i think
[23:33:11] <renesis> maybe bad scan/sync lines in xorg.conf
[23:33:23] <renesis> stupid old no name with no docs crt
[23:33:22] <cradek> yeah that'll freak them out
[23:33:34] <renesis> worked before tho
[23:33:37] <SWPLinux> did you have a 17" plugged in before?
[23:33:38] <cradek> does it do EDID? that's usually reliable
[23:33:40] <renesis> no
[23:33:46] <renesis> is two 15"
[23:33:52] <renesis> the other one would turn on sometimes
[23:34:00] <renesis> you have to time the button right (wtf)
[23:34:19] <SWPLinux> ok, so it works sometimes with this specific monitor (or at least this monitor type)?
[23:34:33] <renesis> worked fine for a week
[23:34:55] <renesis> restarted x few times too, cuz messing with window managers, same x config tho
[23:34:58] <SWPLinux> try plugging in one of the 17" monitors, then set the desktop resolution / refresh down, and plug in a 15" again
[23:34:59] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:35:02] <SWPLinux> night Ales
[23:35:04] <SWPLinux> x
[23:35:15] <renesis> omg nooo, im not taking apart my workstation
[23:35:49] <SWPLinux> then try ctrl-alt-minus while the monitor is plugged in
[23:35:54] <renesis> ill put a livecd in and mount the drives to edit xorg.conf before i start crawling around
[23:36:01] <anonimasu> cradek: I find the glare with crt's distorbing..
[23:36:02] <SWPLinux> that may go to a lower refresh/resolution
[23:36:07] <anonimasu> disturbing..
[23:36:12] <renesis> itll just restart gdm
[23:36:21] <cradek> C-A-F1 will give you a text console
[23:36:29] <SWPLinux> restarting GDM doesn't change the resolution
[23:36:43] <renesis> ok cool my vga terms work
[23:36:45] <SWPLinux> that's true too, then you can look at the xorg.0.log file
[23:36:50] <ds3> or use xvidtune
[23:36:51] <renesis> who said it does?
[23:37:00] <renesis> thats what ctrl+alt_bksp will do
[23:37:04] <renesis> your suggestion =)
[23:37:05] <SWPLinux> which is especially helpful if you've restarted X
[23:37:23] <SWPLinux> I suggested CTRL-ALT-minus, not backspace
[23:37:47] <ds3> and make sure the minus is on the keypad
[23:37:51] <SWPLinux> yep
[23:38:02] <SWPLinux> ds3: did you get to the show today?
[23:38:22] <ds3> SWPLinux: yep, got back a few hrs ago
[23:38:37] <SWPLinux> I was walking through the front lobby-ish area and noticed Luminary Micro - did you see their ARM microcontrollers?
[23:39:03] <ds3> yes, but I don't see anything exceptional about them
[23:39:04] <eric_u> at work, I'm sending a 22" 21" and a 19" crt to salvage
[23:39:15] <renesis> heheh, zoom view
[23:39:39] <ds3> the ADI ARMs are quite nice
[23:39:50] <SWPLinux> ~$1 parts that have motor control PWM outputs and encoder inputs, and are full 32-bit ARM chips with built-in flash/SRAM
[23:39:54] <ds3> even got a few of their eval boards just for sitting in the talks
[23:39:54] <eric_u> isn't luminary the one that does native motor control?
[23:40:00] <SWPLinux> yes
[23:40:06] <eric_u> oops I'm slow
[23:40:20] <eric_u> I like the ADI ones too, but they have dsp motor control
[23:40:30] <SWPLinux> they're $5-10 in digikey/mouser quantities, but at 1k+, they're in the $1 range
[23:40:32] <eric_u> they probably don't want to cannibalize that with their arms
[23:40:37] <renesis> what do you mean by encoder inputs?
[23:40:39] <ds3> what makes it the PWM unique to motors?
[23:40:50] <renesis> its got an encoder input peripheral?
[23:40:52] <SWPLinux> built-in quadrature counter inputs
[23:40:54] <SWPLinux> yes
[23:40:57] <renesis> thats neat
[23:41:07] <ds3> actually, the AVR32 looks quite neat... a version runs full linux
[23:41:14] <SWPLinux> ds3: if you want to drive an H-bridge, you need synchronized PWM with dead-time
[23:41:22] <renesis> ds3: is there more than one chip yet?
[23:41:23] <SWPLinux> or at least it's easier if the PWM has that
[23:41:28] <ds3> Ah
[23:41:37] <renesis> i havent even looked at the avr32 docs yet
[23:41:43] <SWPLinux> when you have 3-phase, it's good to have 6 wynchronized PWMs, with phase offsetting and deadtime ...
[23:41:50] <ds3> renesis: Think they claim 2 right now that will do full Linux and another handful that will do uClinux
[23:41:51] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/CodingStyle: most of this file is not useful, but fix some gratuitous problems anyway
[23:41:56] <eric_u> I don't know if an avr32 is that great of an idea
[23:41:57] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 is very cool. I have the STK1000 at home
[23:42:09] <renesis> oh its got synced multiple phase output pwm, probably
[23:42:36] <SWPLinux> they have a 3-phase induction motor drive design kit (and reference design), which even comes with a motor ...
[23:42:44] <ds3> their $69 something7 eval board looks very nice; dual ether, USB (slave only) + LCD in a PC104 like size
[23:42:48] <eric_u> for which chip?
[23:42:50] <SWPLinux> like a 1/2 HP motor, from the look of it
[23:42:53] <SWPLinux> the Luminary
[23:43:01] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 isn't geared for motor control
[23:43:08] <ds3> SWPLinux: but aren't they 1.8V parts? which means a whole mess of power amps
[23:43:08] <renesis> its powerful enough to do it
[23:43:12] <SWPLinux> AVR32 has LCD controllers, ethernet, USB, ...
[23:43:24] <ds3> I wish their big AVR32 had OTG
[23:43:25] <renesis> yeah but code for quadrature and syncing pwm isnt hard
[23:43:27] <SWPLinux> ds3: yes, of course you need the FETs to drive the motor
[23:43:33] <renesis> especially at a couple hundred MHz
[23:43:49] <ds3> actually, you might be able todo quadrature sync in the ADI part
[23:43:56] <ds3> it has a PLD on board
[23:43:56] <SWPLinux> code for counting quadrature is actually very difficult to make fast enough, even on a microcontroller
[23:44:07] <ds3> so do it on the PLD ;)
[23:44:16] <SWPLinux> well, that's the easy way ;)
[23:44:22] <renesis> you could do that discrete pretty easy
[23:44:24] <ds3> it is on the ADI ARM chip
[23:44:27] <eric_u> I've seen the new micros guy say you can do it with a regular counter though
[23:44:43] <renesis> you could do it with a register, an sram location, whatever
[23:44:50] <SWPLinux> renesis: most microcontrollers don't have a direction input for their on-chip counters, even if they have an external count pin
[23:45:06] <renesis> theres overhead involved tho, interrupt entry/exit, etc
[23:45:18] <SWPLinux> so you'd need an external quad counter, and a serial or parallel interface to get the dat ainto the micro
[23:45:44] <renesis> you could just use a pcint, check the input against last
[23:45:50] <ds3> there is always a Microblaze on a Xilinx if you got the budget
[23:45:49] <renesis> inc or dec a reg
[23:46:03] <SWPLinux> that's the problem - unless you dedicate registers to the interrupt, you end up taking lots of cycles pushing/popping registers, then doing the actual counting (Which is ~10-15 instructions)
[23:46:23] <Rugludallur> SWPLinux: those drawings are Open Office Draw :D
[23:46:30] <renesis> dude avr is 32 working register, 16 full functional, and 3 ram pointers to access sram in a couple cycles
[23:46:34] <SWPLinux> Rugludallur: cool!
[23:46:45] <renesis> i dont see that as a problem as much as programming a microcontroller =)
[23:46:56] <SWPLinux> renesis: I'm very familiar with the AVR, I've been using them since they were released
[23:46:56] <ds3> SWPLinux: or go half way, use the onboard PLD and maintain a 5 bit counter in hardware with occassional interrupts in SW to do overflows
[23:47:15] <renesis> im saying, its doable, few lines of code
[23:47:30] <SWPLinux> renesis: I'm saying it isn't as simple as you think (I've done it ;) )
[23:47:40] <renesis> it wont be as fast as a dedicated circuit, either external or peripheral
[23:47:40] <ds3> SWPLinux: why did you choose the AVR route? I don't see a strong argument for them other then their DIP-8 parts
[23:47:44] <SWPLinux> ds3: yes, that can certainly work
[23:48:10] <renesis> avr is cheap and available, kickass instruction set
[23:48:17] <SWPLinux> I had been using PICs, but when an inexpensive chip that actually knew what to do with its carry bit came along, I jumped :)
[23:48:20] <ds3> same can be said about PICs
[23:48:27] <SWPLinux> bzzzt!
[23:48:28] <ds3> oh hehe
[23:48:31] <renesis> PIC docs are scary
[23:48:34] <renesis> wont touch the chips
[23:48:38] <SWPLinux> I think the PIC instruction set is crap (for most applications)
[23:48:48] <eric_u> how can you program without the carry bit?
[23:48:58] <ds3> hand coding on the PIC is pretty decent, IMO
[23:49:25] <SWPLinux> there are places where the treatment of a full memory bank as pseudo-registers is good, but in most cases, I can't justify the annoying banking, single working register, and a host of other pet peeves
[23:49:25] <cradek> which instruction set is better? the one gcc knows!
[23:49:36] <SWPLinux> AVR, regardless of GCC ;)
[23:50:00] <SWPLinux> I have an AVR (8-bit) program (in assembly) that's roughly 800k of source code
[23:50:12] <SWPLinux> that one should be C at this point, but isn't due to legacy reasons
[23:50:15] <cradek> I don't know why hobbyists are stuck on pics. Do they even have uarts yet?
[23:50:19] <renesis> hahahah
[23:50:31] <renesis> c, heheh
[23:50:35] <cradek> I've seen too many terrible bit-banging pic programs
[23:50:45] <ds3> who needs UART ;)
[23:50:53] <SWPLinux> cradek: sure, you can get them with UARTS, and they even decided that "flash" isn't a peripheral that needs to conflict with the UARTS :)
[23:50:53] <renesis> ?
[23:51:09] <eric_u> pic was very hobbyist friendly first
[23:51:16] <cradek> yep
[23:51:17] <eric_u> before that, life was very hard
[23:51:20] <ds3> think PICs are more available
[23:51:21] <cradek> that's why people still use them
[23:51:21] <renesis> bigger mega avr have 2 uart modules
[23:51:24] <SWPLinux> (it used to be that the flash parts had basically no peripherals - the flash was the "peripheral", in the old 16C84s)
[23:51:31] <renesis> ds3: theres tons of avr on digikey
[23:51:36] <ds3> and PICs don't get obsoleted as quickly
[23:51:39] <SWPLinux> PICs used to be cheaper than AVRs, but that's not true any more
[23:51:41] <renesis> and the local reps drive to my apartment to give me chips
[23:51:46] <ds3> renesis: try sampling an AVR!
[23:51:52] <renesis> like, how muich more avialable do you need?
[23:51:54] <SWPLinux> people use them because for some strange reason, PIC is like Kleenex
[23:52:02] <renesis> um, i get chips that arent at digikey yet =)
[23:52:08] <cradek> I use emacs
[23:52:15] <SWPLinux> I use Kate ;)
[23:52:15] <cradek> (... and vi)
[23:52:23] <renesis> i have atmega88, atmega164p, the newest 8dip 20MHz tiny
[23:52:24] <SWPLinux> (and nano)
[23:52:25] <renesis> free =D
[23:52:41] <ds3> The tiny's are so nice
[23:52:44] <jmkasunich> uh-oh, the 8-bitter wars are happening again
[23:52:50] <renesis> ds3: is all about your local rep, atmel distributes their sample orders
[23:52:58] <cradek> jmkasunich: I just started trying to make fun of the argument - join in
[23:53:05] <eric_u> I have about 40 8748's
[23:53:13] <SWPLinux> nah, just use the 32-bit ARMs that support Linux (and are only $2 more) and be done with it ;)
[23:53:14] <ds3> renesis: think every attempt at sampling an avr part has come back with.... no longer available
[23:53:36] <jmkasunich> I hate short life cycle parts, regardless of the vendor
[23:53:39] <renesis> i just ask for the biggest newest things
[23:53:42] <eric_u> now the 8748 has an instruction set that will put hair on your chest
[23:53:54] <SWPLinux> Z80000
[23:54:10] <ds3> what is a 32 bit ARM that supports fully Linux and is under $2 that is available in 1) Single quantities, and 2) does not come in a pin count > 48pins?!
[23:54:09] <eric_u> z32000
[23:54:10] <SWPLinux> (don't laugh, I still have the "preliminary" datasheet on that one ;) )
[23:54:23] <SWPLinux> the 32000 was a National Semiconductor part, I think
[23:54:33] <renesis> natsemi yayay
[23:54:38] <renesis> theyre awesome about samples
[23:54:40] <eric_u> you're right, flashbacks are low fidelity
[23:54:55] <SWPLinux> ds3: I give up...
[23:55:29] <SWPLinux> eric_u: as I recall, the 32000 series was available (for a short time) in two flavors, the 32016 (16-bit bus) and the 32032 (32-bit bus)
[23:55:49] <SWPLinux> one ow chich was in only one computer, I think an Acorn
[23:55:50] <SWPLinux> s/ow/of/
[23:55:52] <ds3> think the RM9200 and some Cirrus Logic parts are the only nonBGA ARMs that support full linux
[23:56:13] <SWPLinux> is the 9216 available in non-BGA?
[23:56:23] <SWPLinux> I guess I could look
[23:56:53] <eric_u> have you looked at some of the freescale arms? They have silly peripherals like vga and framegrabbers
[23:57:02] <SWPLinux> man. it is nice having a better internet connection in a hotel than I have at home
[23:57:10] <ds3> hahahahahah
[23:57:13] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 is in the same class
[23:57:27] <SWPLinux> (I have DSL at home, so it's not like I'm Ray or anything)
[23:57:28] <eric_u> you can do vga on an avr?
[23:57:41] <ds3> I am just happy for the free eval boards from ADI :)
[23:57:51] <SWPLinux> better - the AVR32 has a 2048x2048 LCD controller built in
[23:57:56] <renesis> cant really compare avr32 and arm yet
[23:58:10] <renesis> hard to compare arm to anything
[23:58:18] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 has identical peripherals to the Atmel ARM chips - it uses the same AHB bus internally
[23:58:35] <renesis> is what im saying, everyone makes an arm
[23:58:41] <SWPLinux> yes
[23:58:46] <renesis> theres gonna be tons more variety
[23:58:48] <ds3> unless you need USB host functionality
[23:58:54] <SWPLinux> actually, the one on the Mesa 4C81 is an interesting part
[23:59:06] <SWPLinux> it has a full 5-port 10/100 switch in it
[23:59:15] <SWPLinux> plus the ARM chip
[23:59:20] <SWPLinux> and other stuff
[23:59:37] <eric_u> usb host would be nice
[23:59:48] <SWPLinux> Mesa only uses 2 of the ports (the "upstream" and one of the switched ports)

#emc | Logs for 2007-04-05