#emc | Logs for 2012-01-05

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[00:03:58] <jackc> hm
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[00:04:09] <jackc> its mad simple... you make pins in python and they appear in hal
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[00:04:20] <jackc> pretty handy
[00:12:28] <andypugh> If you know any Python, I guess :-)
[00:13:19] <jackc> haha :-p its just like any other language, with the addition of annoying object shit and even more annoying spacing shit
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[00:18:03] <andypugh> Objects I like. Functional Witespace bugs me
[00:19:22] <jackc> word
[00:21:07] <Tom_itx> feed it a char(255) and see what it says
[00:25:27] <JT-Shop> is tom3p and Tom_itx the same person?
[00:29:11] <Tom_itx> nope
[00:29:35] <JT-Shop> thanks, I get confused from time to time... what was the question?
[00:30:35] <Tom_itx> did i have one?
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[00:30:59] <JT-Shop> I thought I did, but forgot...
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[00:31:58] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, ever use any UV paint??
[00:32:06] <JT-Shop> no
[00:32:08] <Tom_itx> UV cured
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[00:35:34] <KimK> JT-Shop: Hi JT, Happy New Year, and thanks for carrying on with the docs when I couldn't. Hi Andy, Hi Tom_itx. Belated happy new Year to all. Any gEDA users around? (gschem at the moment).
[00:37:21] <JT-Shop> Hi KimK HNY and thanks for all the work you did to get that far... what is a gEDA?
[00:40:03] <KimK> The gnu free/open schematic and PCB layout suite. I'm trying to learn it, fiddling with simple tasks, trying to place a 7400 four times in gschem (schematic), but it doesn't change the pinouts to the other three pinouts, all four show the same pinout. Probably a beginner's mistake on my part, but I'm stuck for the moment, looking up tutorials on the web and youtube.
[00:41:36] <Tom_itx> i use eagle
[00:43:07] <KimK> Hi Tom_itx, yes Eagle is nice, but I'm afraid I'm becoming a free/open software zealot, lol. How free are your weekends looking these days?
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[00:43:41] <Tom_itx> next couple are filled up
[00:44:05] <KimK> OK, no problem.
[00:44:25] * JT-Shop wanders inside to some jambalaya
[00:44:27] <Tom_itx> you still in town?
[00:45:44] <KimK> Still here, should be for awhile yet, no news there. Temporary seems to be slowly creeping toward permament, we'll see.
[00:45:52] <Tom_itx> seems you turned that into a full time occupation
[00:46:28] <Tom_itx> you hear about Boeing?
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[00:46:37] <Tom_itx> they decided to pull outta town
[00:46:48] <Tom_itx> after we got them that contract
[00:47:16] <Tom_itx> i'm sure that'll affect everybody
[00:52:16] <KimK> Things are not as they seem, I'm temporarily covering general CNC maintenance instead of doing control upgrades, because of losing our full-time maintenance guy to medical issues. Yes, I haven't heard the Boeing story myself yet, just the rumors. Are they leaving for certain or are they just threatening to leave unless they get tax breaks, etc.? When is this supposed to occur?
[00:52:44] <Tom_itx> it was on the news tonight
[00:53:15] <Tom_itx> i didn't catch the whole story
[00:55:40] <jdhNC> Boeing makes it official; the Wichita defense plant will close
[00:56:15] <Tom_itx> they pulled out the commercial some time back and Spirit took over that part
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[01:00:06] <jdhNC> conservative, family values. Check.
[01:00:13] <jdhNC> <urk>
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[03:20:45] <Ekkeri> PCW, ok, but after some more research, it seems that 7I52 was still the right choice, I can get enough pwms from it, and RS422 for 7I73 without modding, I get confused with "6 pwm/dir" for 7I52S, since I don't need dir 7I52 will be enough
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[03:24:15] <Ekkeri> PCW, and I would also need PWM to 0-10V (and dir) :)
[03:26:21] <Ekkeri> PCW, sorry, I think there was 0-10V PWM option too, so I need only opamp with "some" gain.. and maybe differential receiver before it?
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[03:28:13] <Ekkeri> damn.. 10V PWM, not 0-10V
[03:28:43] <Ekkeri> well.. technically it's 0-10V :)
[03:28:58] <Ekkeri> maybe it's time to get some sleep :P
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[03:39:05] <Valen> whats wrong with functional whitespace?
[03:39:27] <Valen> bah i hate it when people leave
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[04:03:26] <Ekkeri> hmm, differential pwm to single sided 10V pwm doesn't seems to be so trivial after all.. at least to me :)
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[04:58:21] <Ekkeri> maybe it's just 5V rs422 receiver + opamp with gain of 2?
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[06:31:03] <MattyMatt> can anyone see the downside of these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-RECIRCULATING-BALL-LEAD-SCREW-PAIR-1-3431-/270730768562
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[06:46:44] <Eartaker> ?
[06:52:16] <KimK> MattyMatt: If the picture is accurate, they are not preloaded, so, not zero-backlash. Possibly you could figure out a way to combine two of those ball nuts and a belleville washer on one shaft, but it would be a lot of work and it would subtract from available travel. Especially after you machined the ends for anchor bearings, one end double. Sorry to disappoint, no free lunch I guess.
[06:54:39] <KimK> I think these are the type used to raise RV's for parking, and raise big camper pickup bodies, so the load is always applied (down). Plus machine tool accuracy is not needed.
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[06:54:59] <KimK> Hope that helps.
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[07:26:48] <MattyMatt> KimK thanks that's helpful. at that price tho I'd still use them on a Z axis :)
[07:26:55] <MattyMatt> try them at least
[07:27:27] <MattyMatt> if I was in US. $58 shipping to here so not today
[07:29:02] <MattyMatt> most of my machine did grow on trees :)
[07:29:45] <Eartaker> KimK: I disagree... its easy to do and is a cheap option I have a screw and 2 nuts per axis from ebay seller linearmotionbearings
[07:30:14] <Eartaker> I cant view that link right now as im in a terminal but you can use double nuts with ease and still have your full travel
[07:30:31] <MattyMatt> shame you couldn't butt those 2x 18" together
[07:31:00] <Eartaker> MattyMatt: lookup linearmotionbearings2008 on ebay
[07:31:00] <MattyMatt> the nuts are 2 1/4" long so that's what youd lose + spring
[07:31:10] <MattyMatt> yeah I know them well
[07:31:14] <Eartaker> ahh
[07:31:49] <MattyMatt> even they are too spendy for me. I go for second hand and surplus
[07:32:20] <Eartaker> =/
[07:34:27] <MattyMatt> until I'm earning more than I'm spending, then I can consider investing in new stuff :)
[07:35:40] <MattyMatt> I buy new tooling at least
[07:35:52] <Eartaker> lol thats good
[07:37:03] <MattyMatt> mostly. my lathe tooling is mostly someone's old collection of homeground off ebay
[07:37:32] <MattyMatt> it matches the lathe really :) it's hard to buy insert tools for a lathe this small
[07:38:14] <MattyMatt> 3/8" toolpost
[07:38:30] <MattyMatt> so 10mm glanze just won't fit
[07:40:22] <MattyMatt> yep, grindwheel next for me
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[07:40:58] <MattyMatt> or another lathe, and I'll just use this one for grinding
[07:42:06] <Eartaker> what lathe is it?
[07:42:17] <Eartaker> I have a 7x10 that I use tcmt inserts on
[07:42:57] <MattyMatt> it's an old british one a bit smaller than that
[07:43:13] <MattyMatt> 6x12 roughly
[07:44:15] <Eartaker> brb
[07:44:16] <MattyMatt> the 4 way toolpost is 3/8" tho, and a tight fit at that
[07:44:53] <KimK> Eartaker: Sorry, I was delayed. Hey, disagreeing is fine, if it works well enough for you, great! Post articles, pics, etc., maybe it will be good enough for others too?
[07:46:45] <MattyMatt> KimK, you could also, as they come in pairs anyway, use both on one axis and do the antibacklash between the nuts in parallel
[07:48:06] <KimK> MattyMatt: Yes, on a z axis they might do well, especially if it's heavy. Ah, pairs, that's an idea, a bit unusual though.
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[07:49:15] <MattyMatt> well it's all speculation :) I was hoping someone had tried them
[07:49:33] <MattyMatt> what shipping do they quote to US?
[07:50:51] <KimK> To the US? They're in the US already, aren't they?
[07:51:14] <MattyMatt> yep, but I'm not. it's $58 to UK
[07:51:27] <KimK> Ah, let me check.
[07:51:38] <KimK> Oops, you did already, nevermind.
[07:53:25] <KimK> They have a well known non-eBay store in Lincoln, NE: http://www.surpluscenter.com/
[07:54:25] <KimK> Mostly mechanical and hydraulic things, with maybe just a few electric and electronic items.
[07:56:21] <Eartaker> KimK: I have a thread on cnczone ill get it
[07:56:59] <Eartaker> also here http://eartaker.net/machining/milling/zx45.php
[07:57:20] <Eartaker> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/104146-rf-45_cnc_advice_needed.html
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[08:00:32] <KimK> Eartaker: Wow, lots of pics, you're a busy guy, thanks! I clicked, but I'd better study them later, it's getting late here. I know you'll be around off and on. Chat more later?
[08:01:20] <Eartaker> KimK: thanks yeah im always on here
[08:01:45] <Eartaker> always logged in... just afk sometimes
[08:04:18] * MattyMatt too
[08:05:10] <MattyMatt> yow bargain on the metric bearings http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?keyword=PBF4&catname=powerTrans&PAGELEN=20&PageNo=4
[08:05:58] <MattyMatt> my lathe headstock is made out of 2 of those. it's pretty effective
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[10:41:09] <awallin> http://www.springerlink.com/content/r56x11h534392232/
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[11:17:33] <Mjolinor> anyone here ever used / owned / had hands on a Boxford Duet?
[11:17:44] <Mjolinor> I am wondering whether to buy one
[11:19:28] <archivist> a bit light for real work
[11:19:35] <Mjolinor> so am I :)
[11:19:41] <Mjolinor> hav ebeen for years
[11:19:58] <Mjolinor> I think mainly I want to make plastic boxes with it anyway
[11:20:17] <Mjolinor> that is if I ever find anywhere to buy plastic at a reasonable price
[11:20:50] <Mjolinor> i think they are all ballscrew
[11:21:02] <Mjolinor> only small on the table but enough for me I think
[11:22:47] <archivist> I have used an earlier boxford cnc mill and the small travels are a problem
[11:23:46] <Mjolinor> 125 x 75 x 260 mm
[11:24:32] <archivist> 125x75 really cramps your style
[11:25:12] <Mjolinor> I sitll have my PCB mill ting that does about 200 x 200 but only has 28 mm vertical
[11:25:23] <Mjolinor> and 28 mm vertical is not enough
[11:25:43] <archivist> have you seen the boxford prices too
[11:25:49] <Mjolinor> yup
[11:26:03] <Mjolinor> ther eis one on ebay at the moment but I dont think it is complete
[11:26:18] <archivist> must be something better and cheaper available
[11:26:25] <Mjolinor> it does not have it's control box so the market is limited, it will have t0o be converted to EMC (or similar)
[11:26:50] <Mjolinor> the good thing about the boxford is that it will fit in my loft
[11:27:14] <Mjolinor> my Chester adn my Denford are both too big, it woudl end up on the bed one florr down
[11:28:04] <archivist> give me the denford then :)
[11:28:10] <Mjolinor> :)
[11:28:12] <Mjolinor> go buy one
[11:28:15] <Mjolinor> they are cheap enough
[11:28:25] <Mjolinor> I have 2
[11:28:25] <archivist> I have a starturn
[11:28:34] <Mjolinor> paid £80 for one and 200 for the other
[11:28:55] <Mjolinor> the £80 one has a multi tool changer too
[11:29:20] <archivist> I have never seen them that cheap
[11:29:35] <Mjolinor> you ahve to look but they are out there
[11:29:41] <Mjolinor> no point looking n the Internet though
[11:30:13] <Mjolinor> you ahve to ask everyone you know, caretakers at schools are a good strating point because all the schools in the UK had them at one time and a lot are still stashed in storerooms
[11:41:34] <archivist> just been outside, it was windy last night, tree down in the field next door
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[12:02:33] <jthornton> better a tree down in the field than in the house
[12:02:46] <Mjolinor> or on the car
[12:03:12] <Mjolinor> the only genuine candidate for a fallen tree is a mother in law
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[12:52:24] <automata> Hi, does anyone know what firmwares can be installed on the new mesa 5i25 card?
[12:52:48] <automata> How many stepgens, pwmgens and encoders?
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[12:58:11] <cncbasher> automata> all depends on the pins available , but up to six is the norm , what do you need ?
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[13:04:03] <automata> I was looking 8 stepgens and 4 encoders
[13:04:19] <cncbasher> yea no problem with that
[13:05:03] <automata> So where do I get the firmware for doing that?
[13:06:05] <automata> Also, will I have to burn that firmware along with the PCI stuff using a Xilinx JTAG cable?
[13:06:34] <cncbasher> let me have a look see if i have a config already set up
[13:07:03] <cncbasher> no you dont need a jtag
[13:07:16] <cncbasher> emc will upload the config
[13:08:10] <jthornton> I don't think that is the case with a 5i25
[13:09:07] <cncbasher> arh yea the 5i25 uses the spartan 6
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[13:11:11] <cncbasher> automata> if you ask PCW he can make one and let you know how to install it if needed
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[13:12:04] <automata> The 5i25 has the PCI bus master on the same FPGA
[13:12:33] <automata> so the configuration may not be uplodable online
[13:12:57] <automata> it probably is an offline process
[13:14:47] <cncbasher> looking at the manual it's unclear , but certianly PCW can advise
[13:14:57] <automata> We have to decide the configuration and program it (along with the PCI bus master)... I think
[13:16:08] <automata> The manual says 7i76x2 includes 10 stepgens and 2 encoders and 4 smart serial interfaces
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[13:18:40] <cncbasher> yea i'd clarify with PCW
[13:18:59] <cncbasher> the 5i25 is more predefined i think
[13:19:21] <cncbasher> back in half hour
[13:19:39] <automata_> The VHDL source is available so it may not be that much of a push to get it configured the way we wnat it..
[13:21:15] <automata_> But for now I may just go with 7i43-U-4 with 12 stepgens / 4 pwngens / 4 encoders
[13:21:42] <automata_> PCW said that he will see about making a 2 channel PWM to analog converter
[13:22:00] <automata_> so from a 7i43 we get 4 analog outputs too!!
[13:25:12] <jackc> out of curiosity, when do you need analog motor drivers? ie, whats the reason PWM wouldnt work?
[13:26:53] <automata_> To drive (cheap) VFD's that donot have PWM Speed control!!!
[13:27:05] <automata_> VFD is for the spindle
[13:27:20] <jackc> vfd -> variable frequency drive?
[13:27:46] <automata_> Also, you could use Analog output to control OLD copley amplifiers for Brush DC motors
[13:27:55] <jackc> oh interesting
[13:28:08] <automata_> Yes VFD is a variable freq drive
[13:28:25] <jackc> thanks for the info
[13:28:54] <automata_> 10-15 years ago most servo amplifiers were analog 0-10V or -10V to 10V
[13:29:05] <jackc> input?
[13:29:35] <automata_> yes that was the torque (or velocity) input
[13:29:43] <jackc> like, input voltage was purportional to output current?
[13:29:51] <jackc> ah
[13:30:10] <automata_> yes output torque was propotional to input voltage
[13:30:44] <automata_> you can still buy such amplifiers and they are really good if you want to do precise force control
[13:30:57] <jackc> was that because it was easier to build drivers like that, or because it was easier to make analog outputs on the controllers?
[13:31:14] <automata_> Not sure actually
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[13:49:30] <A2Sheds> http://buy3dink.com/UV/ just FYI, the formulas here for UV resins are pricey and on the brittle side, I'm checking on 1,000 -10,000kg pricing but I expect ~$250/L
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[13:53:24] <A2Sheds> it looks like the Yahoo group is starting to give up on DLP's and are moving to laser designs http://laserpointerforums.com/f47/homemade-scanning-laser-color-projector-tv-32628.html
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[13:55:52] <A2Sheds> at some point DIY laser is not safely in the realm of DIY, but laser scanning stages with mirrors are relatively simple to construct and the same resins will work
[13:56:28] <A2Sheds> there are a few EMC projects that have most if not all the software available under GPL for laser scanners
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[14:07:12] <cncbasher> ok i'm back
[14:12:04] <jdhNC> good, we've been waiting
[14:12:38] <archivist> I gave up waiting and started eating
[14:12:46] <archivist> how rude!
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[15:16:26] <pcw_home> automata_ You can update 5I25 firmware via the host but you need a power cycle after to load the new firmware
[15:16:55] <automata_> pcw: That is nice to know
[15:17:11] <cncbasher> pcw_home >thanks for that clarification
[15:18:07] <automata_> pcw: I am trying to operate a servo motor as a spindle...
[15:18:37] <automata_> But I also need it to operate as a regular Axis too
[15:19:18] <automata_> so I have defined an input (in HAL) which controls the behavior of the axis...
[15:20:38] <automata_> I have hooked up one stepgen to Axis C (to control the servo motor as a regular C Axis) variables in motion.axis variables
[15:21:43] <automata_> and I ahve connected another stepgen in velocity mode to the motion.spindle-out-rps
[15:22:27] <automata_> Then I connect the two physical stepgen outputs from the 7i43 card together to the servo drive step/dir pins
[15:23:14] <automata_> Now I want to enable only one of the stepgens at a time and that is controlled from the HAL pin
[15:24:01] <automata_> My question is when I disable the stepgen on the 7i43, what will the physical voltage level of the pin on the 7i43?
[15:24:14] <automata_> will it be pulled up?
[15:24:31] <automata_> Ok I am just checking that and report the results...
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[15:32:36] <automata_> if I disable the stepgen it still outputs 0V at the pin
[15:32:45] <automata_> at the physical pin
[15:33:03] <pcw_home> I dont hink the driver allows disabling one set of outputs and replacing with another (the firmware can)
[15:33:05] <pcw_home> I think this is better handled with one stepgen
[15:34:28] <automata_> The problem with one stepgen is the position-fb signal
[15:35:53] <pcw_home> Yes so some HAL/COMP/MUX work needs to be done with that
[15:36:07] <automata_> Once the motor is run with stepgen control-type as velocity, it messes up the axis.0.motor-pos-fb signal
[15:36:32] <pcw_home> too bad EMC does not natively support servo spindles
[15:36:51] <automata_> the problem it gives a following error because the motor-pos-fb signal is very large while the axis.0.motor-pos-cmd is at a small value
[15:38:47] <pcw_home> well if you dont care how many turns it has done, you just insert an offset in the right place
[15:39:42] <pcw_home> is ther a index on the encoder?
[15:40:50] <automata_> Nope no Index...
[15:41:10] <automata_> But I have hit upon a new idea... Use the invert_output
[15:41:15] <automata_> on the 7i43
[15:42:12] <pcw_home> So your servo mode doesnt actually know thw spindle orientation anyway?
[15:42:14] <automata_> Since the outputs have pullups connected, I could connect 2 pins together
[15:42:35] <automata_> That is correct. The servo mode does not care about the spindle orientation.
[15:43:27] <pcw_home> Not really (in open drain mode yes but the outputs of the inactive channel have to be guaranteed to be high)
[15:43:31] <automata_> I am thinking instead of connecting the two pins in software( i.e., using the same stepgen) or in HAL , I could connect them in actual hardware!!!
[15:44:05] <automata_> The output of the stepgen when not generating steps can be ensured to be High right?
[15:44:19] <pcw_home> I dont think that will work without actually messing with the Alternate source registers
[15:45:02] <automata_> what are the Alternate source registers?
[15:45:30] <pcw_home> You may be able to trick the driver into setting the pins high but its kind of iffy
[15:46:08] <automata_> So open drain will external pullups will work?
[15:46:37] <pcw_home> Not without raw-writing some registers
[15:47:36] <automata_> The sticking point is to ensure that the un-used stepgen output is held High right?
[15:48:04] <pcw_home> actually i think this can be done easily with encoder feedback (so you dont use the stepgens feedback at all)
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[15:48:47] <automata_> I see where you are going with this... disconnect the encoder when not in use!!!
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[15:48:51] <pcw_home> the encoder feedback has the virture of being resettable
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[15:49:24] <automata_> i.e., disconnect it in HAL
[15:49:48] <pcw_home> no you always use the encoder bu you can clear it when going into servo mode (or better still get an index and home to index)
[15:50:13] <automata_> and the AC Servo drive already has encoder feedback signal
[15:50:34] <automata_> I see
[15:51:36] <pcw_home> so you have a velocity mode PID loop and a position mode PID loop, and you just switch between them (mux comp)
[15:51:38] <pcw_home> when you switch you clear the encoder
[15:52:26] <automata_> ok got it...
[15:53:19] <pcw_home> better still would be index, becuse then you could have spindle orient
[15:54:03] <automata_> One ore question: How would I clear a parameter in HAL on the switch?
[15:54:55] <automata_> having an index also sounds good... I'll check if the drive and motor has an index pulse
[15:55:15] <automata_> yes it does...
[15:56:06] <automata_> I'll try this approach in the morning.... might have to connect up a rs422 decoder to the encoder output...
[15:56:43] <pcw_home> encoder counter reset is a pin so just connect to proper net
[15:56:45] <pcw_home> I have left out about 100 details :-)
[15:57:20] <automata_> probably only 99... :-)
[15:58:05] <automata_> Just to be clear: the approach of physically connecting two stepgen outputs together will not work because we cannot ensure that the disabled stepgen pin cannot be ensured to be logic High right?
[15:58:18] <pcw_home> so stepgen always in velocity mode, feedback always from encoder PID brainswap/clearecoder
[15:59:04] <pcw_home> yes without fussy non-portable bit twizzling it not possible
[16:00:21] <pcw_home> also inactive PID loop needs to be disabled (so it does not build up a large I term when its not in control)
[16:00:57] <automata_> got that...
[16:03:46] <automata_> PCW: I just check the stepgen step and direction pins both remain logic High when not in use
[16:04:57] <automata_> I have a logic analyzer hooked up to both the pins and they show high when not pulsing
[16:06:13] <automata_> I had my doubts about the dir pin but that is also behaving in a predictable fashion
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[16:08:26] <pcw_home> It may depend on the last move direction
[16:08:43] <automata_> It does not!!
[16:09:02] <automata_> even after a negative move, it resets back to High
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[16:09:57] <pcw_home> I would not depend on the behaviour however
[16:10:17] <automata_> ofcourse I have invert-output parameter asserted
[16:11:39] <automata_> ok.. so there is a scenario there the step pin will leave the step half way ? maybe when E Stop is pressed?
[16:13:20] <pcw_home> I think its better to do this is HAL so tha you do not depend on undocumented & unguaranteed behavior
[16:13:21] <automata_> just tried to interrupt a jog move with ESTOP. The pins still retain logic high
[16:13:42] <automata_> I agree...
[16:15:12] <automata_> PCW: how was your birthday yesterday?
[16:15:23] <automata_> hope you had a good time!!
[16:15:47] <pcw_home> Probably the direction pin returns to 0 because the driver writes 0 to the rate regsiter when idle
[16:15:49] <pcw_home> Yes it was nice
[16:16:32] <automata_> I am going to check that up in the hostmot2 driver and the stepgen VHDL files
[16:17:36] <automata_> another way to go would be to use an external MUX and have a hardware switch signal...
[16:18:15] <automata_> I am guessing a two input MUX (HC series) would do the job...
[16:19:04] <automata_> I mean if I am making hardware (RS422 decoder for the encoder) I might as well consider all the options
[16:19:50] <automata_> Just ensure that it works in the 500 Khz - 1MHz range
[16:20:13] <automata_> so as not to miss any pulses...
[16:22:30] <pcw_home> there are daughtercards tha have encoder inputs and step/dir outputs
[16:31:57] <automata> The daughter cards use the complete P3 or P4 connector and I cannot then use the other signals as GPIO
[16:34:03] <awallin> latest vd-work: http://www.anderswallin.net/2012/01/ttt-and-font-vds/
[16:38:40] <automata_> PCW: I end up making an interface PCB to selectively connect the pins to the daughter cards
[16:42:33] <automata> small single sided PCB with a 74HC257 would probably serve the purpose
[16:43:40] <automata> You will not believe how cheap it is to make a (single sided) PCB here in India!! I pay Rs 500 (~$10) for 25 pcs of this PCB
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[17:17:27] <A2Sheds> with copper traces?
[17:18:45] <A2Sheds> automata: can you get 4-8 layer boards there FR4, with 3mil trace and space?
[17:18:52] <jdhNC> does the stepgen assume the line is currently in the off state (+ or - depending on invert) when it sends a pulse?
[17:19:31] <automata> A2Sheds: with copper traces!!!
[17:19:40] <A2Sheds> :p
[17:19:42] <automata> but 4-8 layer boards are expensive!!
[17:20:06] <automata> I generally get my multi-layer boards from www.pcbpower.com
[17:20:24] <automata> I have found that they have very good ontime delivery...
[17:20:28] <A2Sheds> as compared to the 1 layer in India or 4-8 layer out of China or Brazil?
[17:20:59] <A2Sheds> thanks for the link!
[17:21:29] <automata> as compared to a 1 layer in India... it is simillary to multi-layer in india
[17:21:43] <automata> sorry multi-layer in Brazil and China
[17:22:33] <automata> pcbpower offers online quotations too...
[17:23:15] <automata> I can get Single layer boards with 35 um copper clad done in 36 Hrs!!
[17:23:21] <A2Sheds> I've been following a few projects in India like the Aakash tablet
[17:23:51] <automata> Me too.. one of my ex-employees was working on that project!! he left to go work on that!!
[17:24:08] <automata> he keeps me updated
[17:24:38] <automata> The specs are not too interesting though... they tried to go too cheap!!
[17:24:56] <A2Sheds> I worked on a similar project there for United Telecom, low cost swappable CPU module
[17:26:19] <A2Sheds> we are designing a 1.5GHz ARM cortex-a8 module now for $35, with 1GB-DDR3
[17:26:23] <automata> jdhNC I am checking the hostmot2 driver and the stepgen VHDL code to ensure the behaviour.. At the same time I am also laying out the 74HCT258 PCB with screw terminals.. and a RS422 type decoder (26LS32) with screw terminals
[17:26:28] <A2Sheds> just add display
[17:26:53] <automata> that way I have my A** covered in all scenarios!!
[17:27:09] <automata> wow!! does it have wired ethernet??
[17:27:47] <automata> I have been following the Raspberry PI also intently.. and hope to port EMC2 to arm someday!!
[17:27:57] <A2Sheds> already done
[17:28:22] <automata> what!! EMC@ on arm??
[17:28:27] <automata> emc2 on ARM??
[17:28:37] <A2Sheds> http://rhombus-tech.net./allwinner_a10/ info on the module
[17:29:08] <A2Sheds> http://code.google.com/p/miniemc2/ emc on arm
[17:30:11] <jdhNC> emc on a gumstix would be cool
[17:33:38] <automata> I was thinking the same thing!!! to convert RTAI to xenomai!!!
[17:34:41] <robin_sz> I think raspberry pi will be still some months
[17:35:29] <robin_sz> the guys workingon it are only doing it in their spare time ... which is crazy, because it could be HUGE
[17:35:37] <A2Sheds> http://rhombus-tech.net./allwinner_a10/ we have working kernel and tablets right now
[17:35:53] <A2Sheds> I'm going to finish the cpu module later this month
[17:36:31] <A2Sheds> we have a factory in China ready to make boards right after Chinese New Year
[17:36:37] <robin_sz> beaglebone is a good alternative to rasp.pi.
[17:36:58] <A2Sheds> A10 will be even better
[17:38:24] <A2Sheds> A10 boards by Feb http://tabletrepublic.com/forum/cortex-a8-allwinner-a10/ tablets are now
[17:38:55] <A2Sheds> from $80 usd ad up, most are $120
[17:39:30] <A2Sheds> I'd like to spin an A10 board with an FPGA on the NAND interface
[17:39:40] <A2Sheds> maybe next month
[17:39:47] <robin_sz> it look similar to many of the others
[17:40:34] <A2Sheds> the A10 is only $5 so there are lost of possibilities for low cost boards
[17:40:41] <A2Sheds> lost/lots
[17:40:43] <automata> If the xenomai port is complete for EMC2 then there is nothing stopping the port to ARM!!!!
[17:40:47] <robin_sz> $5?
[17:41:07] <A2Sheds> yeah $5 arm cortex a8 soc
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[17:41:14] <automata> I mean the port is already done!!
[17:41:21] <robin_sz> + board, parts, etc
[17:41:25] <A2Sheds> yeah, it works
[17:41:41] <A2Sheds> robin_sz: boards will be ~$35
[17:41:48] <robin_sz> cheap enough
[17:42:00] <robin_sz> with ethernet?
[17:42:17] <A2Sheds> http://rhombus-tech.net./allwinner_a10/
[17:42:42] <A2Sheds> http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/PCMCIA
[17:42:45] <robin_sz> my current search is for a Arm9 cheap, with ethernet and 2 x RS232
[17:42:51] <A2Sheds> I have to rewrite the specs
[17:42:53] <Mjolinor> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/hal/pyvcp_examples.html#_gs2_rpm_meter_a_id_gs2_rpm_meter_a
[17:42:54] <robin_sz> or better still 2 x RS485
[17:43:02] <Mjolinor> is you try to follow that manually it doesnt work
[17:43:17] <A2Sheds> sam9g45
[17:43:19] <Mjolinor> there needs tobe an instruciton in there to add HALUI=halui in your ini file
[17:43:23] <A2Sheds> ~$70
[17:43:26] <Mjolinor> and hte button names are wrong
[17:43:28] <robin_sz> currently I am looking at beaglebone with a custom extender card
[17:43:45] <robin_sz> sam9G20 is current favourit
[17:43:58] <A2Sheds> http://www.mini-box.com/pico-SAM9G45-X
[17:44:09] <robin_sz> or this
[17:44:10] <robin_sz> https://www.ledato.de/shop_content.php?coID=14&language=en
[17:44:32] <A2Sheds> the A10 is 1/2 the cost for 10x the performance
[17:45:06] <A2Sheds> I wish the sam9g45 was out a year ago when it was supposed to
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[17:47:08] <robin_sz> the mini-box looks interesting
[17:47:15] <robin_sz> is that really mini PCI?
[17:48:20] <robin_sz> ah, miniPci-e better
[17:48:28] <robin_sz> I could put a GSM card in that ;)
[17:48:59] <robin_sz> but no RS232 on board sadly :(
[17:51:14] <A2Sheds> mini-pci with only the USB lines used
[17:51:22] <A2Sheds> the SOC has no PCIe bus
[17:51:30] <A2Sheds> only arm9 400mhz
[17:51:47] <robin_sz> same with the A10, no RS232 and has video drivers that I dont need, but thats not so bad
[17:51:51] <A2Sheds> usb-serial adapter $12
[17:52:02] <robin_sz> no, no adaptors
[17:52:16] <robin_sz> slow, buggy
[17:52:37] <robin_sz> I already have to convert from 232 to 485 half duplex
[17:52:47] <robin_sz> and need the RTS and CTS pins
[17:52:57] <A2Sheds> ah, are you running 422 or 485 all over
[17:53:07] <robin_sz> 485 half duplex
[17:53:28] <robin_sz> 2 wire
[17:53:37] <A2Sheds> maybe spin-II with FPGA?
[17:53:54] <robin_sz> so need the RTS and CTS to indicate the bus is clear
[17:54:50] <robin_sz> beaglebone with a cape would be easier
[17:55:09] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[17:55:48] <robin_sz> but I dont think beaglbone is available in the EU
[17:55:53] <robin_sz> sadly
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[17:56:54] <robin_sz> beaglebone is not CE marked or RoHS .. so not sold in EU at moment
[17:58:18] <robin_sz> will the A10 be CE marked?
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[17:58:29] <robin_sz> or a USA only product?
[17:58:38] <A2Sheds> China first
[17:59:03] <A2Sheds> it will have CE and RoHS since there are customers world wide
[17:59:26] <robin_sz> interesting
[17:59:37] <robin_sz> well, better than beaglebone already :)
[18:00:25] <A2Sheds> I might respin beaglebone in the EOMA format
[18:01:07] <A2Sheds> the FSF is looking for a board they can sponsor
[18:01:10] <robin_sz> whatever that is
[18:01:37] <robin_sz> I thought beaglebone was in standard format?
[18:01:56] <robin_sz> same exactly as my Stellaris 6965 eval kit
[18:02:01] <A2Sheds> ingenic jz4760 is the only all open SOC so far of interest
[18:02:55] <robin_sz> shrug
[18:03:04] <robin_sz> raspberry pi is not all open
[18:03:14] <robin_sz> but important parts are
[18:03:21] <robin_sz> so, does it matter?
[18:04:00] <A2Sheds> it's a programming platform, not a swappable cpu module to run a tablet/netbook/set-top-box etc
[18:04:22] <A2Sheds> different applications
[18:04:57] <A2Sheds> plus no connection to broadcom
[18:05:07] <robin_sz> does that matter?
[18:05:52] <robin_sz> providing it compiles C, thats all that really matters
[18:06:05] <A2Sheds> nah Broadcom
[18:06:22] <A2Sheds> lots of devs dislike broadcom
[18:06:34] <robin_sz> shrug
[18:06:53] <robin_sz> I wonder if there is a arm9 + gsm for sensible money
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[18:18:14] <andypugh> PCBs arrived from China. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Of6lsgdXzIDmIRxQI0WZONMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
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[18:21:29] <JT-Shop> what does the encoder wheel fit on/in?
[18:22:49] <andypugh> It wedges between the rotor magnets
[18:22:53] <jdhNC> how long did those boards take?
[18:23:20] <JT-Shop> cool
[18:23:26] <andypugh> I ordered them on the 21st, they arrived today. (total cost, delivered, was $14)
[18:23:48] <jdhNC> wow
[18:24:17] <jdhNC> where did you get the motor magnets?
[18:24:35] <JT-Shop> a flea bay item?
[18:24:40] <andypugh> http://www.guysmagnets.com/
[18:25:41] <jdhNC> I broke a motor magnet, need to find a replacement.
[18:27:16] <mshaver> andypugh: Check your gmail!
[18:27:44] * JT-Shop seems to be smart and dumb at the same time now
[18:28:13] <JT-Shop> or so I'm told
[18:29:08] <andypugh> mshaver: What address did you use? I see nothing, not even in Sapm.
[18:29:26] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Yeah, I thought he was quite remarkably rude.
[18:30:34] <JT-Shop> I'm glad I'm not the only one feel that way after reading it :)
[18:31:02] <andypugh> I decided to assume he was foreign and stupid, rather than evil.
[18:31:13] <JT-Shop> LOL
[18:33:14] <mshaver> andypugh: Andy Pugh <[email protected]>
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[18:35:58] <andypugh> mshaver: That one got through. Did you also send one to [email protected]? Because that didn't.
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[18:36:45] <mshaver> No, sorry. I am confused (obviously!) I guess I meant Email, rather than Gmail...
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[18:45:36] <pcw_home> JT-Shop: not a good strategyto solicit help from volenteers and then insult them
[18:46:44] <pcw_home> feel free to insult my spelling
[18:47:16] <Mjolinor> your spelling is crap
[18:47:42] <Mjolinor> but for sure it is better than mine
[18:53:50] <Mjolinor> I was thinking that it should be possible to make a web server based pendant, are there any pages on this?
[18:54:09] <Mjolinor> manual control over a web page I mean
[18:54:38] <Mjolinor> someone must have done it, soemone seems to have already done anything that can be conceived
[18:55:29] <andypugh> Maybe not that. Is the plan to let the World crash your tools?
[18:55:42] <Mjolinor> :)
[18:55:52] <Mjolinor> no, no plan, jsut wondered
[18:56:12] <Mjolinor> thought it would be good to use my android tablet and that seems the easiest way
[18:56:53] <Mjolinor> could problay do it directly in a shell script using halcmd
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[19:01:44] <andypugh> You know about emcrsh?
[19:02:39] <Mjolinor> nope
[19:02:46] <Mjolinor> but google will :)
[19:03:00] <andypugh> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/emcrsh.1.html
[19:03:08] <Mjolinor> got it :)
[19:03:49] <Mjolinor> thats easy then
[19:03:58] <Mjolinor> can jsut telnet or SSH
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[19:18:17] <JT-Hardinge> 28 second cycle time does not leave much time for surfing
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[19:20:38] <archivist> JT-Hardinge, no automatic bar feed and part removal ?
[19:22:26] <JT-Hardinge> no :/
[19:23:25] <archivist> or yes it's you!
[19:23:40] <JT-Hardinge> the parts are bigger than my spindle through hole and yes it's me
[19:23:41] * archivist waits 28 secs
[19:24:07] <JT-Hardinge> so a saw cut first
[19:24:39] <JT-Hardinge> then use an oversize 5c collet
[19:24:57] <archivist> I have done time on a capstan, so understand
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[19:37:36] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: yea, that strategy has never worked for me when I was a little kid so I quite using it long ago :)
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[19:40:39] <jdhNC> priorities
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[19:49:08] <mshaver> andypugh: Another e-mail at bodgesoc.org for you!
[19:56:11] <cradek> mshaver: an unnamed, former or current, boss of mine would walk to my office after sending an email. He'd say I SENT YOU AN EMAIL DID YOU GET IT and invariably I had received it and already answered it while he was walking over.
[19:58:19] <A2Sheds> archivist: will the clocks on leap second day say "and 61 seconds" or just jump to the next minute?
[20:00:16] <archivist> A2Sheds, dont know, probably "and 61 seconds" though
[20:00:19] <mshaver> cradek: I'm an old guy. I use POP e-mail myself, so i have to "Get Mail" to see a new message, and I may only do that a couple times a day unless someone says, "Get your e-mail". I really prefer to call people on the phone, but Andy is in England.
[20:09:19] <automata> PCW: got the external MUX PCB done... will get it printed and let you know the results... Am planning to use 74HCT258 Quad 2 input MUX...
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[20:27:36] <PCW> OK but I still think this is better done in HAL
[20:28:57] <cradek> A2Sheds: :60, not :61
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[20:31:53] <automata> I will do it in HAL too and let you know the results... I do have a 7i33 so I can try it out too...
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[22:00:11] <andypugh> mshaver: Are you there now? Some of the effects you are seeing baffle me.
[22:00:35] <mshaver> They baffle me too! But, there I am...
[22:01:07] <mshaver> Have you looked at my files? Perhaps I've done something stupid in there.
[22:01:23] <andypugh> initvalue ought to have no effect at all if you are not using the init pin, and you shouldn't even have an init pin in any modes other than "q" and "qi"
[22:01:56] <mshaver> Right, it only exists with "q".
[22:02:27] <mshaver> When in q mode, reducing initvalue seems to make the initial homing move less violent.
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[22:03:08] <andypugh> encoder.N.scale needs to suit the machine/PID. bldc.N.encoder-scale needs to be the counts-per-rev of the encoder, and is negative about half the time (it depends on the UVW phases)
[22:03:18] <mshaver> But even at .01 it causes a runaway. Hand twisting the spindle to home it is the only way to make it work, and then not 100%.
[22:03:49] <andypugh> Ah, yes, in q mode that is exactly right. But q mode is something that you would only use if desperate
[22:04:48] <andypugh> bldc should _never_ cause a runaway. It causes a stall when wrong. If there is a runaway then I would be looking at the encoder.N.scale sign.
[22:05:16] <andypugh> (this is why bldc has it's own encoder scale, and needs a rawcounts connection)
[22:05:17] <mshaver> At first I changed bldc.0.encoder-scale. This changed the situation from runaway to a homing move and then the spindle wouldn't move at all.
[22:05:58] <andypugh> I don't see your configs in any of the emails
[22:06:30] <mshaver> http://www.mattshaver.com/8i20/
[22:06:41] <mshaver> all the 1240.* files
[22:06:45] <andypugh> I assume you have a recent pull of EMC2?
[22:07:30] <mshaver> emc2 1:2.5.0~pre2.61.g14363c8 from the buildbot
[22:08:28] <andypugh> Hmm, I do recall PCW saying that negative PGain in PID was bad, I think.
[22:09:03] <mshaver> He said something like that to me on the phone as well.
[22:10:25] <mshaver> Maybe if I set bldc.0.rev to true I could change them to positive values?
[22:11:44] <mshaver> I wonder why negative gains are bad? I would think it would just invert the output polarity....
[22:12:48] <andypugh> I might be misremembering, and even if not I am vague on the details. I am hoping PCW or pcw_home will chip in.
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[22:13:33] <andypugh> The first thing I would suggest is to take the PID out of the system. Work on getting the motor spinning nicely when you setp the bldc.N.value
[22:14:02] <andypugh> I am pretty sure that all runaways are PID based.
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[22:14:50] <andypugh> (because generally the problem is getting the motor to spin at all...)
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[22:16:44] <mshaver> OK, that's a strategy I can follow. Talking to Peter on the phone now...
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[22:18:47] <clytle374> anyone with a 5i20 run lspci? what's it show?
[22:19:00] <JT-Shop> just a sec
[22:19:38] <clytle374> what's it show.. sounds normal around here... doesn't look right on paper lol
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[22:20:24] <jt-plasma> http://pastebin.com/RRx0HVwF
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[22:21:43] <JT-Shop> clytle374: ^^
[22:21:44] <clytle374> jt-plasma, thanks, yours doesn't show up either
[22:25:44] <Spida> 02:03.0 Bridge: PLX Technology, Inc. PCI9030 32-bit 33MHz PCI <-> IOBus Bridge
[22:25:44] <clytle374> is this the 5i20?
[22:25:47] <clytle374> Bridge: PLX Technology, Inc. PCI9030 32-bit 33MHz PCI <-> IOBus Bridge
[22:26:02] <clytle374> good timing Spida
[22:26:16] <Spida> I would assume it is, id it is conencted to pci
[22:26:29] <Spida> waah, typos.
[22:26:33] <andypugh> mshaver: Yes, once you have the motor responding well to current demands (positive and negative) then you can freeze that part, and then work on the runaways.
[22:26:37] <clytle374> I've got one of those listed too.
[22:26:47] <mshaver> hold on a sec...
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[22:28:02] <Valen> rather gory lathe fatality http://imgur.com/a/7nP0b#0 be careful guys
[22:28:15] <mshaver> Peter'll be here in a moment to talk about this.
[22:28:17] <andypugh> I have found a way to make a motor + 8i20 run away outside PID, though, and I think that can happen when the motor runs one pole +/- a fraction inside a servo cycle. It sort of "verniers" round in the wrong direction.
[22:28:54] <andypugh> Valen: Why oh why did I click that link?
[22:28:58] <mshaver> He explained the negative PID gain problem though, so I'm going to change that first off.
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[22:29:34] <Valen> andypugh: i was fairly descriptive about it
[22:29:59] <mshaver> Bookmarked!
[22:30:04] <Valen> moral of the story is long sleeves are not for the workshop
[22:30:13] <andypugh> Yeah, and normally I don't follow such links. I think I was expecting a description and report, not just the pictures.
[22:30:32] <clytle374> safety rule number one: lots of layer of clothing
[22:30:38] <Valen> seems pretty self explanatory
[22:30:44] <Valen> clytle374: huh?
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[22:30:56] <mshaver> My youngest son is going to VoTech next year for machine shop, so i want to make safety an issue with him.
[22:31:08] <clytle374> looked like 3 diffrent garments wrapped on the spindle
[22:32:16] <andypugh> kick e-stop and spindle brake seem like good ideas on a lathe with significant power.
[22:32:52] <Valen> andypugh: i bet it was over well before human reaction time could kick in
[22:33:03] <Valen> it takes .2 seconds for you to start doing stuff
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[22:33:32] <andypugh> Maybe, it depends on the spindle speed.
[22:33:32] <Valen> at 2000 rpm the lathe has already done 7 turns by then
[22:33:39] <andypugh> Aye.
[22:34:15] <andypugh> Apparently boring machines are dangerous the other way, you have time to get in the wrong place as the bar goes round.
[22:34:26] <Valen> ooh that sounds nasty
[22:34:54] <PCW> Andy in the BLDC QH mode does the preliminary rotor angle get set by the Hall state or Hall edge?
[22:36:27] <andypugh> Initial angle is Hall state, which it uses for the first movements, then it gets a more accurate fix from the edge transition.
[22:36:49] <andypugh> Once it sees an edge, it swaps to the encoder
[22:37:05] <andypugh> I am wondering is 1mS is fast enough for this.
[22:37:39] <andypugh> Perhaps a limit1 on the velocity command would help?
[22:38:17] <mshaver> Fast enough to see the edge correctly?
[22:38:19] <PCW> Trying to understand how this can be so wrong that the commutation is not working
[22:38:20] <PCW> I dont think you could get enough velocity in the first ms to be a problem
[22:38:23] <andypugh> Valen: Not as nasty as the guy at Dagenham Press Shop who was dressing the car body press..
[22:38:28] <Valen> do you still wobble the motors when you start to get a position?
[22:38:54] <Valen> ?
[22:39:04] <PCW> Thats one startup mode (Q)
[22:39:32] <PCW> needs only encoder but wobbles at startup
[22:39:37] <andypugh> Valen: Car bodywork is what, 1m thick? So was he...
[22:39:43] <andypugh> (1mm)
[22:41:29] <Valen> nasty
[22:41:43] <Valen> least it'd be quick
[22:41:52] <andypugh> Gore aside, the lesson there is that when chocking a press and climbing inside, you need to make sure that the chocks are secure and the press is on the down stroke. Otherwise if it starts, it moves up, the chocks fall out, and you don't even have time to swear.
[22:42:10] <andypugh> In the case of that lathe accident, I want to know what he did wrong.
[22:42:14] <Valen> I will keep that in mind
[22:42:32] <Valen> if you look at later photos you can see clothes wrapped around what looks like the job
[22:43:06] <mshaver> Maybe he wiped off the spinning workpiece with his shirt tail.
[22:43:11] <PCW> presumably the QH mode is done with the motor stopped so the maximum RPM for HAL edge sample is how fast the motor can get going in 60 degrees
[22:43:18] <andypugh> Yes, but normally your clothes are nowhere near the work. I am wondering if he was polishing or filing on the lathe, for example.
[22:44:07] <Valen> i presume he was futzing with the work piece when it was spinning so something like that would make sense
[22:44:43] <Valen> I generally try to get right down the other end from the chuck when doing that though so i'm out of the line if something gets flung
[22:45:23] <andypugh> Which is why I want to know, because I do that sort of thing all the time. So far I have only ever been tapped by a chuck jaw.
[22:46:02] <andypugh> I guess that you could get pulled in clearing swarf, too.
[22:46:14] <Valen> i presume theres general safety advice around
[22:46:27] <Valen> i always use something like a scribe for that
[22:46:41] <andypugh> (swarf grabs sleeve, chuck grabs swarf....)
[22:47:02] <Valen> i also never have long sleeves on
[22:47:39] <andypugh> mshaver: Odd, your "8i20 Experiments" original email only just arrived, long after the replies.
[22:47:41] <Valen> i'm not so concerned about the swarf dragging me in but i could see it slicing you up pretty bad if your grabbing it by hand
[22:47:55] <andypugh> Aye, I always use pliers.
[22:48:19] <Valen> grip loosley if your using something like that
[22:48:26] <andypugh> (I know people who use hooks, but that strikes me as vaguely risky too)
[22:48:38] <Valen> the scribe i use is kinda hookish
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[22:48:47] <Valen> but i stand off to the side while i'm doing it
[22:48:54] <Valen> lathe scares the crap outta me lol
[22:48:57] <Valen> so much KE
[22:49:08] <andypugh> Let go of pliers and they let go of the swarf, not so for a hook.
[22:49:35] <Valen> thats the thing, if your grabbing the pliers you could wind up hanging on to them as they go in,
[22:49:55] <andypugh> I suspect I am not nearly as scared of lathes as I ought to be. I have been using them since I was 7.
[22:50:04] <mshaver> andypugh: E-mail is like that sometimes! I'm going out to the shop and try out yours and Peter's suggestions. I really appreciate both of you helping me! What I get from you guys is that "new angle" that is hard to come by when you're working alone.
[22:50:05] <Valen> about 12 here
[22:50:10] <A2Sheds> nothing like opening that link while eating rare roast beef... and yet no effect
[22:50:41] <andypugh> A2Sheds: I am a sensitive individual. (no, really)
[22:51:20] <andypugh> If my lathe ate me, it would probably be weeks before anyone came looking.
[22:51:29] <A2Sheds> you can never make a machine too safe
[22:51:46] <andypugh> A2Sheds: You can, in some ways
[22:51:59] <Valen> my lathe would probably just wrap your arm around the spindle and leave you there
[22:52:36] <A2Sheds> punchpress with 5 buttons that need to be pressed simultaneously?
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[22:52:59] <andypugh> A2Sheds: You can certainly add so much safety kit to a machine that the operators have no choice but to disable it to get the actual job done.
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[22:53:37] <A2Sheds> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGiYlyo2-eQ safety saw
[22:53:41] <andypugh> But yes, a press (or a chainsaw) should probably always take two hands.
[22:55:06] <Valen> my other halfs grandmother cut her thumb off with a hedge trimmer
[22:55:14] <Valen> you needed 2 hands to make it work
[22:55:18] <Valen> and it has a brake
[22:55:24] <Valen> nobody knows how she managed it
[22:55:28] <andypugh> A2Sheds: Now that is good safety, unobtrusive but very effective.
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[22:56:11] <Valen> I was talking to a guy who uses table saws all day and he didn't like them
[22:56:22] <Valen> they false positive too often and break the crap out of everything
[22:56:35] <andypugh> Compare to the semicircular telescoping plastic guards they put on pillar drills. Have you _ever_ seen anyone use one?
[22:56:43] <Valen> those are a joke
[22:57:24] <Valen> I was designing one based on a car disc brake to stop the saw without breaking anything
[22:57:25] <andypugh> Yeah, the false-positive on that table saw looks expensive.
[22:57:52] <andypugh> DC injection would maybe be enough.
[22:58:03] <Valen> it might be a teensy bit slower and draw blood in the case of an actual trigger but theres no harm to a false trigger
[22:58:14] <Valen> the problem is wood and people look pretty similar electrically
[22:58:36] <A2Sheds> stopping a spindle or large chuck is another story
[22:59:37] <andypugh> Bench grinders always come with inadequately transparent guards in a place where the sparks don't go too.
[22:59:55] <Valen> I just wear eye protection when using those
[23:00:02] <Valen> the clear guard things are just in the way
[23:00:23] <Valen> angle grinder is i think the most dangerous tool in the shop by number of injuries
[23:00:25] <syyl> i put on eye protection on every machine i use..
[23:00:35] <syyl> even for drillpress or so
[23:00:49] <PCW> mshaver: can you disconnect the motor from the 8I20 use the BLDC QH mode and see if the rotor-angle matches the electrical position at startup (before moving the shaft) for a full set of starting positions
[23:00:51] <PCW> and also see if it jumps more than 60 degrees when a Hall edge is hit (.1666666)
[23:00:55] <Valen> at qantas (australian airline) safety glasses are required at the door
[23:01:04] <syyl> and hearing protection for loud stuff...
[23:01:16] <syyl> like circular saw or angle grinder
[23:01:17] <andypugh> syyl: Good practice certainly. I put the glasses on when the 4th bit of metal pings off my face, but your way is better.
[23:01:30] <syyl> ;9
[23:01:43] <syyl> and now i start to use a face shield on the lathe
[23:01:46] <syyl> better view
[23:01:50] <Valen> i use hearing protection for hammers
[23:02:01] <syyl> and less burned skin in the face from hot chips
[23:02:05] <Valen> should probably use glasses too but ey
[23:02:15] <Valen> one thing i have learnt is don't cheap out on the glasses
[23:02:23] <Valen> if they suck you won't use them
[23:02:26] <syyl> jep
[23:02:39] <syyl> the 99ct ones are good for..
[23:02:40] <syyl> uhm
[23:02:41] <andypugh> That reminds me, I lost an ear plug, I need to find the impressions and get a replacement. I wear them all the time on my bike, wind-noise in a helmet is 80dB or thereabouts.
[23:02:58] <Valen> nasty
[23:03:16] <syyl> seems to be good practice
[23:03:18] <Valen> syyl: they don't have to be expensive, jut fit you well
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[23:03:33] <syyl> never heard of someone who wears earplugs on a bike
[23:03:40] <Valen> andypugh: take a look at different helmets
[23:03:55] <Valen> my missus has been through a few and the latest one she got is really quiet aparently
[23:03:56] <andypugh> Talking lathe pain , why oh why oh why do US pattern manual lathes put the Z handle right where the chips drop?
[23:04:07] <clytle374> I wrecked a big SL Mori once. Broke all 3 jaws off the chuck. Standing 2 foot from the chuck
[23:04:11] <syyl> european lathes too...
[23:04:14] <clytle374> Never ran a lathe much again
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[23:04:40] <syyl> always hot chips on the left hand...
[23:05:13] <Valen> clytle374: rather loud i imagine
[23:05:31] <clytle374> flying jaws was the scary part
[23:05:46] <clytle374> tranferred to mills next morning
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[23:06:12] <andypugh> syyl: No, compare the handle position: http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/index.html http://www.lathes.co.uk/colchester/page24.html . I can see resistance to change, as you effectively have to swap hands between the two.
[23:07:10] <andypugh> clytle374: The lathes were probably grateful too
[23:07:26] <syyl> hmm, all german lathes i know have the handwheel also on the right
[23:07:32] <clytle374> It was mutual
[23:08:01] <syyl> as i saw the colchester of a friend the first time
[23:08:13] <syyl> i made jokes like "they held the plans the wrong way round"
[23:08:35] <syyl> because its so uncommon here, to have the carriage handwheel on the right...
[23:10:39] <andypugh> Hmm, maybe it is a UK-only thing then?
[23:11:01] <syyl> seems so
[23:11:05] <syyl> and some chinese...
[23:11:18] <andypugh> http://www.lathes.co.uk/dsg/page2.html
[23:12:15] <andypugh> This one avoids the issue (and would make a nice retrofit candidate) http://www.lathes.co.uk/cromwell/index.html
[23:12:38] <syyl> heh
[23:12:55] <A2Sheds> what is about youtube where you start looking for vids on machining techniques and 10 links later it's slow motion bikini weather girls
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[23:13:18] <syyl> mh
[23:13:20] <syyl> its lathe
[23:13:25] <syyl> eh
[23:13:26] <syyl> late
[23:13:27] <syyl> ...
[23:13:36] <syyl> time to leave
[23:13:47] <syyl> goodnight
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[23:15:42] <andypugh> A2Sheds: I almost guarantee that lathe-loving girls don't have that problem.
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[23:30:03] <skunkKandT> I think we finally figured out why the tool change would not align perfectly in one in 200 changes
[23:30:25] <JT-Shop> accumulation error?
[23:30:31] <skunkKandT> one of the flow control valves was adjusted wrong causing the arm creep to not creep fast enough..
[23:30:49] <skunkKandT> so every once in a while it would not run it against the hard stop..
[23:30:57] <JT-Shop> my arm doesn't creep fast enough either
[23:31:04] <skunkKandT> about 2 turns in... ;)
[23:31:37] <skunkKandT> but I did modify the ladder just a bit to make it even better..
[23:31:53] <JT-Shop> gotta love EMC2
[23:32:11] <skunkKandT> yes - for sure... this thing has been rock solid
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[23:35:34] <skunkKandT> it beats a rack full of time delays... ;)
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[23:36:45] <JT-Shop> I've seen some relay cabinets that would blow your mind...
[23:43:13] <clytle374> tomorrow I will have the emc disk. rtai has defeated me
[23:47:58] <skunkKandT> clytle374: we don't think any less of you... :)
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[23:49:12] <clytle374> yeah, but I have more grey hairs when I look in the mirror. I think I shrunk 2-3" also
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