#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-02-18

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[00:00:19] <pfred1> newegg is selling reconditioned HDDs now a lot
[00:00:31] <pfred1> which people say are trash most don't work DOA etc.
[00:01:37] <pfred1> it seems like 2014 before anything gets sorted out to me
[00:02:55] <andypugh> This is more than enough for EMC2: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-MLC-Flash-DOM-Disk-Module-16GB-7PIN-SATA-SSD-/170629872507
[00:02:57] <pfred1> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9222522/Impact_of_hard_drive_shortage_to_linger_through_2013
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[00:03:30] <pfred1> yeah that is reasonable
[00:04:31] -!- theorbtwo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[00:04:32] <pfred1> andypugh so you have a mesa board in your PCI slot?
[00:04:40] <andypugh> Yes
[00:04:43] theorb is now known as theorbtwo
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[00:04:53] <pfred1> that is the other thing I kind of hate about the miniITX boards only like 1 or 2 slots
[00:05:07] <andypugh> One is plenty.
[00:05:10] <pfred1> I guess
[00:05:26] <pfred1> just makes me feel sort of limited though just not familiar with it
[00:05:39] <pfred1> way the world is going though everything integrated
[00:05:46] <andypugh> 5i23 + 3x 7i44 + lots of cards = 1600+ lines of IO...
[00:06:08] <jdhnc> but what if you need 1800 :)
[00:06:39] <pfred1> jdhnc then you need arduino glue
[00:06:40] <andypugh> 7i43 on the parport
[00:07:11] <jdhnc> I have a 7i43 I've been saving for my mill, but I guess I'll get a 5i25 instead
[00:08:01] <andypugh> (that could be 5 x 8 x 48 = 1920 IO lines.)
[00:08:14] <pfred1> I got my Z axis all done but the mechanics of it are all so shaky I chicken out before it stops going faster
[00:08:29] <pfred1> I took it up to 1.5 IPS
[00:08:47] <andypugh> that seems slow
[00:08:48] <pfred1> it didn't sound entirely healthy to me so that was as far as I went
[00:08:57] <pfred1> 90 IPM
[00:09:15] <andypugh> Probably fast enough for all practical purposes.
[00:09:22] <pfred1> it'd go faster just sounds like it is going th shake apart to me
[00:09:47] <andypugh> Bear with me, just going to try a restart
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[00:11:34] <pfred1> andypugh well for linear guides that cost me a grand total of $2 USD can't expect the world
[00:13:07] <pfred1> andypugh this is a picture of it as it stands now http://i.imgur.com/PHZCW.jpg
[00:13:15] <pfred1> the melamine machine!
[00:13:47] <andypugh> Ingenious
[00:13:56] <pfred1> this is what is inside it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHPKaHLzXes
[00:14:11] <pfred1> I upped the microstepping and got even more speed out of it
[00:14:34] <pfred1> but it is one shaky contraption
[00:14:45] <pfred1> I figured out where i went wrong
[00:15:04] <pfred1> the bearings the threaded rod are on are right on the threads and threads are at an angle to the radius
[00:15:19] <pfred1> so that makes the bearings kind of at an angle to the axis
[00:15:38] <pfred1> when I redo it I'll sleeve the threaded rod and get bearings that fit on the sleeves
[00:15:52] * pfred1 just didn't see any of that coming
[00:17:01] <pfred1> plus I can't tell for sure but I think that piece of threaded rod might have a bit of a bend in it
[00:17:15] <pfred1> it just doesn't run as true as I'd like to see it
[00:18:43] <pfred1> andypugh this is the rest of my hair brained plan http://i.imgur.com/lysGP.jpg
[00:19:20] <pfred1> that box will ride inside twin Y rails that will rid in twin X rails
[00:19:40] * pfred1 wanted to make a different router than the rest
[00:19:44] <andypugh> angle-iron tracks?
[00:20:03] <pfred1> heh not this time around no they'll be more like engineered wood beams
[00:20:18] <pfred1> I since came up with another idea let me up that picture
[00:20:33] <andypugh> By having the two X (as drawn) motors at opposite ends you are sacrificing travel
[00:20:59] <pfred1> yeah I'm probably going to end up putting them both on the same side I was really having a fit of balance that day
[00:21:41] <andypugh> And belt-coupling and single motors would be cheaper and possibly better.
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[00:22:21] <andypugh> Though two smaller motors might give you usefully more speed.
[00:22:32] <andypugh> Hi mhaberler
[00:22:35] <pfred1> andypugh actually if you think about it weaker steppers and drivers are a lot cheaper than stronger ones
[00:22:41] <mhaberler> hi!
[00:22:50] <pfred1> each of my motor driver combos cost me $25 a pop
[00:23:33] <pfred1> real motor drivers are like $150 a piece then real motors I haven't priced them lately but they're not cheap either
[00:23:45] <pfred1> like in the 435 oz/in range
[00:24:05] <pfred1> so I can get 2 200 oz/in for a fraction of the price
[00:24:17] <andypugh> mhaberler: There is a chap on the forum hoping to configure what M1 turns off. He thinks (quite reasonably) that you ought to be able to make the spindle stop and the coolant stop during an M1 pause. I have tried to figure out the code, but got lost in a maze of classes, all alike.
[00:24:53] <pfred1> andypugh this is a side view sketch of one of my axis linear slides http://i.imgur.com/8Y11S.jpg
[00:25:11] <pfred1> plywood and ripped 2x4s is the material plan now
[00:25:52] <pfred1> I had a much more complicated plan I abandoned
[00:25:54] <andypugh> I think you need more rollers.
[00:26:00] <jdhnc> and better wood
[00:26:06] <mhaberler> hm, I had another request for making m2 and friends remappable, which they currently arent
[00:26:10] <mhaberler> I'll read up
[00:26:31] <pfred1> jdhnc if it doesn't work out think of all the room for improvement I'll have
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[00:26:48] <pfred1> but seriously plywood is way better than MDF
[00:26:58] <pfred1> and lots make machines out of it
[00:26:58] <jdhnc> I meant the 2x4
[00:27:22] <pfred1> depends what grade i get if I can get spruce
[00:27:48] <jdhnc> I think MDF retains shape better than plywood
[00:28:02] <andypugh> pfred1: With that design there is nothing to persuade the two parts to remain parallel. One roller can slide down, and the other up.
[00:28:24] <pfred1> andypugh even if the mirror is on the other dise?
[00:28:26] <pfred1> side
[00:28:29] <mhaberler> hm, seems to be a common request
[00:28:38] <mhaberler> I'll look into it
[00:28:46] <andypugh> He is offering to pay...
[00:28:49] <pfred1> andypugh that is only half of it
[00:29:38] <pfred1> I figured as it is it should pinch into place but I'll see you may be right not like I've tried it out yet
[00:31:37] <andypugh> Have you considered simple Melamine box-ways. I can see that working surprisingly well.
[00:32:03] <pfred1> I have to admit my melamine tube works better than I thought it would
[00:32:11] <pfred1> stuff is slippery
[00:32:21] <andypugh> And will be very stiff
[00:32:23] <pfred1> I was going to strip the ways with it
[00:32:40] <pfred1> see I'll find my older plan
[00:33:39] <andypugh> mhaberler: Hmm, Seb might just have jumped to the top of your priority queue
[00:33:51] <mhaberler> where?
[00:33:59] <andypugh> dev list
[00:34:23] <pfred1> andypugh I scrapped this because there are just too many parts http://i.imgur.com/dJKvP.jpg
[00:34:43] <pfred1> but i was going to make those dark triangles out of melamine
[00:35:59] <pfred1> there are parts of that design I really like but it isn't practical to actually make
[00:36:19] <andypugh> The vast majority of machine tools use sliding bearings, not rollers. I reckon a melamine box-way router could be quite effective. You might need to spend a long time shimming.
[00:36:40] <pfred1> like dovetails
[00:37:12] <pfred1> I guess my design is sort of like backwards dovetails
[00:37:23] <pfred1> I never thought about it that way before
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[00:38:01] <andypugh> My miller has twin V-slides on the Z. That makes no sense at all to me. How are they meant to work?
[00:38:34] <pfred1> I'm kind of hoping to get halfway decent rapids on my X and Y axises but as of now I don't know what i can realistically expect with my leads
[00:39:10] <pfred1> having seen the stuff go in order to get any speed out of it at all it has to be revolving fairly quickly
[00:39:40] <pfred1> my whole machine I'm only shooting for 2x3 feet
[00:40:09] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/m3UWBaZAOXAoIMPsIuRcN9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink shows it. How can they reasonably expect all 4 sides to simultaneously bear? It's just not possible.
[00:40:44] <pfred1> andypugh but they're there just in case ;)
[00:41:01] <andypugh> pfred1: To get high speed with steppers you will need unusually large-pitch screws.
[00:41:14] <pfred1> yeah or really fast motors
[00:41:34] <pfred1> I'm running at 24V so I don't have any power at high speed
[00:42:19] <pfred1> but for now it is what I am doing I know I'll have to boost it up in the future
[00:43:16] <pfred1> people say they get 150 IPM out os 1/2x10 TPI leads I don't know how they manage it but I've heard the claim made
[00:43:48] <pfred1> I have to admit I'm pretty pleased with 90 as of now
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[00:45:41] <cstop> hypothetical question. Might just be a g-code thing, but is there a routine for lathe applications that coordinated spindle rotation and X position. Rather like a relieving tool, or an ornamental lathe.
[00:45:54] <pfred1> the ultimate goal of my machine is to do designs in woodwork so I don't mand if it isn't too accurate
[00:48:02] <cstop> pfred1 accuracy is relative. If you are working to within .010, and it gets too fuzzy, make your work bigger! ;-) .010 is nothing on a two meter diameter ;-)
[00:48:15] <pfred1> cstop you mean like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcey94oh6bY
[00:49:19] <pfred1> I love eggbot!
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[00:50:47] <cstop> well, if the control can move the pen "radially", a worm screw could redirect the motion
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[00:54:29] <pfred1> I bet andypugh would like to have one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kddPuLSaOjQ
[00:55:48] <pfred1> oh now it is making me seasick
[00:57:35] <andypugh> cstop: There is no way to do it in G-code that I know of, but it can be done with a bit of HAL trickery, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4q8gCpeY1A
[00:58:18] <andypugh> cstop: I thought that it would be possible with G38, but that can only move in one direction after each index.
[01:00:34] <cstop> pfred1 Is there any useful application for such an impeller made from aluminum? Andy, I'm looking at that reference now
[01:02:37] <cstop> ahh, yes, now I recall seeing just that video, I must have paid no attention to the Trickeryy
[01:03:28] <andypugh> cstop: It might well be for a big turbo, aluminium impeller, steel/nimonic/titanium turbine is a common combination.
[01:04:59] <pfred1> cstop my ultra high speed air die grinder has an aluminum whatever you call it in it
[01:05:06] <andypugh> cstop: I wrote a HAL component that calculates an offset based on an angle from an encoder and a lookup table.
[01:05:13] <pfred1> thing must spin at 80,000 RPM
[01:06:00] <cstop> Forces follow what power of the size? MV^2 and all that
[01:06:16] <pfred1> yeah it is pretty dinky
[01:06:55] <The_Ball> wow this looks promising a, looks like something proper build on opencascade, had anybody here played with it? http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/free-cad/index.php?title=Main_Page
[01:07:16] <cstop> andy, so if one were wanting to do ornamental work, the enries would require a bit of programming.
[01:10:09] <andypugh> cstop: Ah, you want to do ornamental turning?
[01:12:01] <andypugh> Have you seen http://www.deweygarrett.com/ ? He uses EMC2
[01:12:04] <The_Ball> pfred1, ref youtube vid, great comment "how do I get married to this machine"
[01:13:23] <andypugh> The_Ball: Ref your comment on the other channel about free-CAD, yes, there is a lot of crossover between that project and LinuxCNC (and HeeksCAD)
[01:14:02] <pfred1> The_Ball I saw that it was funny
[01:14:22] <The_Ball> andypugh, I remeber when cascade went open source a while back and I hoped for great things, this looks like it
[01:14:37] <pfred1> CAD on Linux?
[01:15:29] <pfred1> I swear I hate all CAD programs though their UIs are so distracting I can't actually get any real design done in any of them I'm better off sketching on a napkin
[01:16:04] <The_Ball> pfred1, I use gcam for "sketching on a napkin" type stuff
[01:16:08] <cstop> I have my hands full dealing with solid works, No need for a "kit of parts" ;-) but I celebrate the efforts of all.
[01:16:11] <andypugh> I like Inventor, but I did spend 8 hours a day using it for a couple of years.
[01:16:42] <jdhnc> I installed inventor, couldn't even make a cube
[01:16:58] <pfred1> andypugh I've been pushing pencils since I was about 6 so ah I've a bit to overcome
[01:17:23] <andypugh> Create a sketch, draw a square, pop up a level, extrude it
[01:17:46] <pfred1> like my old teacher always used to say, vector the points!
[01:18:03] <andypugh> I like to find where parts are inside each other in CAD-space rather than in the metal
[01:18:10] <pfred1> he never actually explained how points are vectored I think he just liked hearing himself say that phrase
[01:19:12] <andypugh> 3D cad lets me goof for free.
[01:19:23] <pfred1> I have two power erasors
[01:19:41] <pfred1> and a whole box of inserts
[01:20:29] <andypugh> And I have hopes for free-CAD. I actually have an Inventor license from work, an Alibre License I paid for, but I want something Mac-native so I am not trying to do 3D-Cad in a Virtual Machine, because that is painful.
[01:20:30] * pfred1 has a bit of a fetish with stationary supplies
[01:20:54] <pfred1> I got into a bit of a spat with the developer of that they've something against imperial units
[01:21:00] * JT-Shop hands pfred1 his 3 phase eraser
[01:21:05] <jdhnc> I installed the live cd in a VM the other day, what do I have to do to make it a sim- version?
[01:21:05] <pfred1> they're dead set against implementing them
[01:21:24] <pfred1> so it is a bit worthless for me
[01:21:50] <andypugh> pfred1: Does it matter what the units are if you are not mixing them?
[01:22:35] <andypugh> A length of "1" can be inches, mm or furlongs
[01:22:41] <pfred1> andypugh I know I'm not supposed to because it is only a graphical representation etc. but I actually calculate some dimensions right off my drawings and it works here for me :)
[01:23:39] <andypugh> Print at 2540% ?
[01:24:58] <pfred1> really I don't see what the big draw is with metric
[01:25:09] <cstop> If I were to write a book or make a film about the "uniqueness of "America", I would title the work 25.4
[01:25:37] <jdhnc> c'mon, it's not unique. Lybia does also
[01:25:41] <pfred1> they're dragigng us more and more into the metric system here
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[01:26:29] <jdhnc> our newest design is all in metric (imperial)
[01:26:33] <pfred1> I think mostly for military compatibility as if we need those allies
[01:26:51] <jdhnc> but, if you ask anyone, the tube OD is still .404
[01:27:35] <pfred1> the 8 soldiers Germany sends to a theatre
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[01:29:59] <pfred1> when you have 43 commissioned Los Angeles class nuclear attack subs you don't need any allies!
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[01:32:10] <cstop> strength through $$$ er fire power.
[01:32:39] <pfred1> cstop each one of those subs has more explosive potential than all the bombs used in every war in the entire 20th century
[01:33:23] <pfred1> just one would alter life on this planet as everyone knows it in about 20 minutes
[01:34:00] <jdhnc> you can't nuke everyone who deserves it.
[01:34:11] <pfred1> jdhnc we can 7 times over
[01:34:43] <pfred1> just in case the first 6 times we hit them wasn't enough
[01:35:19] <pfred1> now when they say a bomb is so many megaton is it imperial or metric?
[01:35:32] <cstop> I reluctantly "volunteered" to become collateral damage when they issued me a birth certificate.
[01:35:47] <jdhnc> 43 subs?
[01:35:55] <cstop> metric actually
[01:35:57] <pfred1> yeah in active service
[01:36:09] <pfred1> we had 69 but retired a few
[01:36:48] <pfred1> I went to where they make them once
[01:37:04] <cstop> someone should but a plexi view bubble on one of the retired ones and sell amusement rides
[01:37:28] <pfred1> like how those japanese boaters got amused when the one porpised on top of them?
[01:38:00] <pfred1> that happened back in the 80s by Hawaii IIRC
[01:38:46] <pfred1> was pretty embarassing an incident
[01:39:28] <andypugh> pfred1: Metric is a bit more rational, there are fewer fudge-factors in calculations. Power is exactly torque x angular velocity, for example.
[01:39:31] <pfred1> the reason we have so many is it is one of he industries they have to keep going because if it ever gets shut down that's it no more
[01:40:03] <pfred1> so we build them whether we need them or not I mean we don't need anymore but we still buld them just to keep in practice
[01:40:10] <andypugh> Imperial is rather confused between mass and weight
[01:40:26] <jdhnc> in theory
[01:40:43] <pfred1> andypugh but this is the counter argument sometimes you should have to think hard about some things
[01:41:01] <cstop> andy the math is easier, but the increments are "uncomfortable". 10X is often too much
[01:41:25] <andypugh> So, you either have to keep pounds as mass and invent a force unit, or use pounds as force and invent a mass unit (slugs)
[01:41:29] <pfred1> yeah the imperial system didn't just come about it was refined over centuries to be scaled for human use
[01:41:31] <jdhnc> just use 3/16 of a cm
[01:42:17] <jdhnc> F is a good scale, the rest I could live without
[01:42:19] <andypugh> pfred1: Yes, by us. But we saw sense.
[01:42:28] <pfred1> you caved in
[01:42:38] <pfred1> you should have stood by the USA!
[01:42:48] <andypugh> cstop: Actually, it isn't 10x, it is always 1000x
[01:43:00] <pfred1> you know no matter what those europeans ever do we'll come over there and set them straight for you
[01:43:04] <cstop> I deal with nanometers or micrometers. both "distances" are too small to perceive, so it makes no matter
[01:43:23] <pfred1> we did it twice already
[01:43:31] <andypugh> I have machined to 100nm thickness :-)
[01:43:42] <cstop> Andy this is a "machining" oriented chat
[01:44:02] <cstop> .1 mm or .01 mm BIG difference!
[01:44:02] <jdhnc> 100 newtonmeters?
[01:44:03] <pfred1> that is another thing that drives me nuts
[01:44:28] <pfred1> amateur machinists looking for 0.0001 accuracy with cutting machines
[01:44:42] <pfred1> yeah it can be done kind of sort of but is it practical?
[01:45:27] <pfred1> if yes is the right answer why are precision grinding machines made?
[01:45:27] <cstop> andy How did you evaluate your work? Sptectroscopy?
[01:46:30] <cstop> I have a nice flat lapping machine in the lab, works so well. The interferometyer confirms ;-)
[01:46:36] <pfred1> when I worked in a tool and die shop we didn't realistically expect to lathe or mill anything closer than 0.003 any closer we'd grind it
[01:47:02] <cstop> sorry about the extra keys, I'm just trying out these new fingers
[01:47:22] <andypugh> pfred1: Actually, not just the amateurs. I know of only very few applications where things 1000mm apart need to be 1000mm +/- 0.1mm. This means that almost nobody needs the super-accurate ballscrews that they insist on. Even the worst screw will take off exactly 0.1 mm if you turn it 0.1 revs and it is 1mm pitch.
[01:47:59] <andypugh> cstop: Electron microscopy :-)
[01:48:40] <cstop> depth of field?
[01:48:53] <pfred1> andypugh like a buddy of mine said once once i get past my 6" calipers a tape measure is good enough :)
[01:49:09] <pfred1> he made nice machines too
[01:49:37] <cstop> I helped build some of the first scanning tunneling microscopes (atomic force) back in my days at the University of California Santa Barbara.
[01:50:24] <pfred1> cstop whenever someone says first I always think of this http://www.k6may.com/Images/transistor.jpg
[01:50:55] <pfred1> though there are other firsts that look even worse
[01:51:12] <andypugh> cstop: http://www.springerlink.com/content/v700132v11u87606/
[01:51:15] <cstop> My day today was spent with LASER illumination of a Twyman Green Interferometer, the reference is 1/50th wave at 633 nanometers. We can all do the math
[01:52:18] <pfred1> it is because of that I'm not too worried how my first machine comes out I figure it just gives me more room for improvement
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[01:53:40] <cstop> Andy Have you any good suggestions for suppressing "speckle" when delivering laser light through a fiber?
[01:53:41] LasTwo is now known as Lasivian
[01:55:34] <andypugh> cstop: I have almost no experience in the actual application of optical fibres, bit I think the "speckle" is unavoidable. You get it even with a bare laser.
[01:56:59] <pfred1> you have to train the sharks not to go deep in the water
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[01:58:21] <pfred1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw
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[01:59:17] <andypugh> Ooh! I am glad I looked up my papers, last time I checked (about 10 years ago) I had never once been cited. It seems that now I have, most recently last year.
[02:00:22] * pfred1 got out of serving on jury duty
[02:00:28] <pfred1> score!
[02:01:43] <pfred1> andypugh do you guys have to do that over there?
[02:02:06] <andypugh> Yes. I think we invented it.
[02:02:17] <pfred1> gawd it is a fate worse than death!
[02:02:21] <andypugh> (Magna Carta)
[02:02:43] <pfred1> I did it once when I was really young so boring
[02:02:56] <andypugh> I have never been called up, but if I was, I would try to do it because I think it is an important idea
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[02:03:09] <pfred1> that's what yo usay now
[02:03:28] <pfred1> face it if they're in court it can't be good and they have to pay
[02:03:29] <andypugh> It helps that I would still get paid
[02:03:43] <cstop> I sat on a homicide....whoa! Took a while
[02:04:04] <pfred1> I was grand jury we just heard the prosecutors
[02:04:07] <andypugh> I can imagine that a 3-year fraud case might get a bit wearing.
[02:04:10] <pfred1> indite!
[02:04:31] <pfred1> it was a lesson in human stupidity I swear
[02:04:58] <pfred1> really really dumb people seem to get in trouble with the law
[02:05:35] <andypugh> Yes, well, not just them. I had a lot of bother getting myself a US visa recently.
[02:06:08] <pfred1> why you're like a convicted mad bomber or something?
[02:06:11] <andypugh> (Because I have been arrested in the US)
[02:06:20] <pfred1> wouldn't surprise me if you were
[02:06:26] <pfred1> for what?
[02:07:15] <andypugh> "Disorderly Conduct"
[02:07:34] <cstop> you rebel!
[02:07:40] <pfred1> you must have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time
[02:08:06] <pfred1> because the USA is all about Disorderly Conduct
[02:08:48] <pfred1> we kind of celebrate it here
[02:08:53] <andypugh> The thing is, you don't even have to have been convicted. For example, if you have ever been arrested for a drug crime, even by accident, or if acquitted, you can never get a visa to visit the US.
[02:09:38] <cstop> a case of guilty even after proven innocent
[02:09:41] <pfred1> yeah our drug laws defy logic and reason but I figure they're the way they are so the CIA can fund illegal wars and stuff
[02:10:08] <pfred1> can't float everything by the voters you know?
[02:10:34] <pfred1> evne stuff that needs to be done
[02:10:41] <Jymmm> andypugh: have they denied you yet?
[02:10:49] <andypugh> The problem with Democracy is that some people's opinions actually are worthless.
[02:11:00] <pfred1> some?
[02:11:23] <pfred1> the funniest thing here is voter turn out
[02:11:27] <pfred1> or lack of it
[02:11:51] <pfred1> I bet you this next presidential election less than 50% will go to the polls
[02:12:10] <pfred1> I probably won't
[02:12:24] <cstop> there is no democracy, the laws are made by "lawyers" read $$$
[02:12:50] <pfred1> what my government does has so little impact on my life why should I waste my time?
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[02:14:40] <pfred1> andypugh then there are illegals that get busted a dozen times and al lthey get is a free ride back home
[02:14:56] <pfred1> they skip the whole visa process entirely
[02:15:25] <andypugh> Jymmm: No, I have my Visa. In fact they gave me a 10 year business/tourist one. I think they were of the opinion that a "senior engineer" of a US company with a completely clean slate for the last 25 years really ought not to be forced to produce documents that the US court system has lost/destroyed any time he wants to visit.
[02:16:31] <Jymmm> andypugh: so you told them you were arrested though?
[02:16:32] <andypugh> pfred1: "No matter who you vote for, the Government gets in"
[02:16:44] <pfred1> we're so tight with the UK I don't even see why any of them need visas to visit the US most of you speak English right?
[02:17:04] <Jymmm> pfred1: Brit Speak
[02:17:15] <pfred1> Jymmm well it beats spanish
[02:17:28] <pfred1> which I've 0 chance of understanding
[02:17:31] <Jymmm> pfred1: Nah, the Spanish were here before we were.
[02:17:42] <Tom_itx> yeah they make no effort to learn the native language
[02:17:44] <pfred1> not where I am
[02:17:56] <pfred1> I think the dutch got where I am first
[02:18:02] <Tom_itx> where would that be?
[02:18:06] <pfred1> then the indians slaughtered them all
[02:18:09] <andypugh> Jymmm: Yes, that was my error. I assumed they kept records and that lying would be bad. I should have lied, nobody can find the records, not even my state attorney friend. (though his letter stating that might have helped :-)
[02:18:13] <pfred1> delaware
[02:18:43] <Tom_itx> you're not ammune to the import problem up there?
[02:18:45] <Jymmm> andypugh: Well, now you are on the up and up and they can't surprise you down the line.
[02:18:48] <Tom_itx> immune
[02:19:08] <pfred1> andypugh in the USA when dealing with official matters playing dumb is always the best policy
[02:19:22] <pfred1> they can never prove you're smart enough to know better
[02:19:44] <Tom_itx> no speakie engish
[02:19:55] <pfred1> it is amazing how much latitude you'll gain by simply acting stupid
[02:19:55] <Jymmm> andypugh: Now that you got your visa, I'll be sure to talk to someone at SF ICE and make sure you get deported =)
[02:20:25] <andypugh> Well, hmm, I do have letters in front of my name that hint I might not be totally stupid.
[02:20:30] <pfred1> like once at inspection the guy told my aunt her tires were bald she said no they're goodyears so he passed her
[02:20:57] <pfred1> he couldn't be bothered explaining to her what bald tires were
[02:20:59] <Jymmm> andypugh: I'm gnna tell them you wanna blow up something, which thurps any letters you might have =)
[02:21:00] <Tom_itx> andypugh you need letters on both sides
[02:21:16] <andypugh> Jymmm: Deportation in SF would be great, I get to not clean the boat :-)
[02:21:46] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Dr...BscPhdARCS?
[02:21:56] <Tom_itx> :)
[02:22:02] <Jymmm> andypugh: Oh, I'll wait till your done cleaning =)
[02:22:06] <pfred1> Jymmm I'll admit what the USA did to get California was wrong
[02:22:20] <pfred1> I say we give it back to the Mexicans
[02:22:28] <Tom_itx> that was texas
[02:22:40] <pfred1> nah we messed them up in california too
[02:22:52] <Jymmm> pfred1: Calif, Texas, the lousiana pirchase, etc.
[02:22:54] <pfred1> texas isn't as in debt so I say we hang onto it for a bit
[02:23:03] <andypugh> Ever been to Mexico? I really liked it there.
[02:23:04] <Tom_itx> pfred1, they seem to be getting both back with little effort
[02:23:22] <pfred1> ah we purchased the louisanna purchase fair and square
[02:23:29] <Tom_itx> andypugh, the caribbean side
[02:23:35] <Jymmm> pfred1: What $20 ?
[02:23:46] <pfred1> Jymmm hey low price gets it
[02:23:51] <Jymmm> =)
[02:23:59] <Jymmm> silly frecnh
[02:24:04] <pfred1> I think by the square mile Alaska was cheaper
[02:24:13] <Tom_itx> no doubt
[02:24:17] <Jymmm> and the oil
[02:24:19] <Tom_itx> worth more too
[02:24:28] <Tom_itx> and forestry
[02:24:29] <andypugh> I think Mexico is the only properly-foreign place I have thought I could live in happily.
[02:24:35] <pfred1> but the USA took california by force
[02:24:51] <Jymmm> andypugh: Not any more. Unles you want to die.
[02:25:07] <Tom_itx> i found out a burger costs $30 in Grand Caymen
[02:25:54] <Tom_itx> and fuel is $8/gal
[02:25:56] <pfred1> Tom_itx if you live in Alaska yo uget a check from the state every year for resources
[02:26:12] <Tom_itx> you must endure alot for it though
[02:26:39] <pfred1> still thats crazy
[02:26:47] <pfred1> what other state pays you to live in it?
[02:26:53] <andypugh> I felt less in danger of dying in Mexico than in some parts of the US I visited. I felt about the same risk of being robbed, but a much lower risk of being shot afterwards.
[02:27:12] <pfred1> andypugh oh i could take you some places in the USA that are hell on Earth
[02:27:14] <Tom_itx> andypugh how long ago?
[02:27:23] <Jymmm> andypugh: Not any more (in the last 2yrs)
[02:27:36] <Tom_itx> i've a neighbor from there and when he visits he swears he won't leave the hotel
[02:27:37] <pfred1> yeah mexico is kind of going through a civil war
[02:27:51] <Jymmm> s/civil/drug cartel/
[02:28:02] <Tom_itx> yeah the cartel is winning
[02:28:13] <pfred1> well yeah they're buying their guns off us
[02:28:37] <Jymmm> andypugh: Mexico is kidnapping tourist is the big thing right now.
[02:28:39] <pfred1> if our government isn't out and out giving htem to them
[02:29:11] <andypugh> US was 1986 (NY, NJ, NC, FL and back), Mexico (Quintana Roo) was 2001
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[02:29:26] <Tom_itx> andypugh things are much different now
[02:29:50] <andypugh> Shame, it was poor but nice then,
[02:29:55] <pfred1> yeah the mexican thing seems to have come to a head in the past 4 years or so
[02:30:08] <pfred1> well it is poorer now because of china
[02:30:20] <pfred1> cheap mexican labor isn't so cheap compared to china
[02:30:39] <pfred1> so you either run drugs or run away
[02:31:26] <andypugh> I am going to China in less than a week. That will be odd, I won't even be able to read signs. At least in Greece I can work out what signs say, if not what they mean.
[02:31:30] <pfred1> there is even a TV show here now called border wars
[02:32:21] <Tom_itx> yeah
[02:32:23] <pfred1> andypugh in the USA we turn every tradegy into a reality TV show
[02:32:44] <andypugh> I am likely to be in a reality TV show
[02:32:59] <pfred1> oh yeah?
[02:33:17] <pfred1> brits in their sheds?
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[02:33:33] <andypugh> http://northonetv.com/?p=highlights&toppage=clipper&sect=1
[02:33:55] <pfred1> you sail?
[02:34:09] <andypugh> a bit
[02:34:18] <pfred1> I've a friend into that
[02:35:02] <andypugh> I am sailing from china to california next week. (eek! it is suddenly very imminent!)
[02:35:08] <pfred1> not competitive though just commercial
[02:35:23] <pfred1> like he delivers boats
[02:35:37] <pfred1> still the stories he tells
[02:35:39] <andypugh> A lot of people do.
[02:35:55] <pfred1> yeah the rich idiots who buy them don't seem to know how to operate them
[02:36:01] <pfred1> that is where my buddy Dave somes in
[02:36:08] <andypugh> Rich folk own boats, other people sail them 90% of the time
[02:36:12] <pfred1> yup
[02:36:20] <pfred1> exactly what he does
[02:36:31] <pfred1> he sails the boats to where the rich folks wants them
[02:37:02] <pfred1> then they sit on it in dock
[02:37:24] <andypugh> The boat I will be sailing belongs to Robin Knox Johnston though. I think he knows how to sail
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[02:38:31] <pfred1> dave has hiw own boat but he diesn't even have it in the water everyone always wants him to sail their boats sort of like a free inspection
[02:38:55] <pfred1> he'll tell them what is wrong with it what htey need etc.
[02:39:11] <andypugh> That was a disingenuous statement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Knox-Johnston
[02:39:49] <pfred1> I'm a land lubber
[02:40:11] <pfred1> IU been out in dave's boat it's not for me
[02:40:49] <andypugh> I don't understand why most of the sailors I know do it.
[02:41:10] <pfred1> yeah of God meant us to travel the oceans we'd have been born with gills
[02:41:34] <Tom_itx> why did he make them so big then?
[02:42:10] <pfred1> Tom_itx to keep us from going everywhere
[02:42:33] <pfred1> it worked for a long time too
[02:42:45] <andypugh> Well, for me travelling the oceans is the point, because the sea takes you anywhere on earth. But most sailors sail out of, and back in to, the same port. They aren't going anywhere.
[02:42:46] <Tom_itx> curiosity got the best of us though
[02:43:24] <pfred1> andypugh the sea ain't going to take you to Death Valley
[02:43:32] <Tom_itx> it's awesome what you see out there too
[02:44:24] <pfred1> andypugh I go to these lakes in Maine to boat that is enough open water for me
[02:44:34] <andypugh> pfred1: I can walk to Death Valley from somewhere a boat can take me, though. I can't walk there without a boat.
[02:45:03] <clytle374> So I was hanging out at my buddies shop this afternoon, when the plastic holding the insulation to the ceiling tore from being full of water from an unknown leak in the roof.
[02:45:06] <Jymmm> andypugh: Ok Noah
[02:45:06] <Tom_itx> andypugh, not sure you would want to though
[02:45:27] <Jymmm> pfred1: Well, Mono Lake might
[02:45:28] <clytle374> Water dumped right into the 3 phase generator and blew it up
[02:45:30] <pfred1> clytle374 you need a leaker
[02:45:33] <clytle374> What's the chances of that
[02:45:34] <andypugh> But yes, the Pacific is probably bigger than I can currently imagine.
[02:45:51] <clytle374> pfred1, what is a leaker?
[02:45:56] <pfred1> clytle374 when I roofed we had one guy he was the leaker
[02:46:12] <pfred1> they send the leaker out to places that have leaks and he figures out where they are
[02:46:13] <andypugh> pfred1: Big bladder?
[02:46:34] <Jymmm> andypugh: pfred1 http://jetlev.com/
[02:46:40] <clytle374> well a 3 year old building shouldn't need a leaker
[02:46:45] <pfred1> clytle374 if he can't figure it out what he'd do is use a fluorescent dye
[02:47:25] <pfred1> roofing supply places probably carry it
[02:47:38] <pfred1> or they could tell you where you can get it
[02:47:53] <andypugh> I was out on the balcony of the hotel in Cologne on thursday. It has a lead roof, and I am sure that every single balcony has lead that has peeled up to make a leak.
[02:48:10] <pfred1> I never did a lead roof
[02:48:22] <pfred1> don't think I'dwant to sounds heavy to carry up a ladder
[02:48:22] <Jymmm> http://vimeo.com/31008456
[02:48:47] <pfred1> when we did rubber roofs the roll weighs 600 pounds
[02:49:08] <pfred1> one roll
[02:49:34] <clytle374> The leak is the least of his problem right now, 4 cncs are sitting waiting for 3 phase power
[02:49:40] <pfred1> andypugh how you think we got the roll on the roof?
[02:50:37] <andypugh> Big lead roof (and a bigger glass one) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=50.935381,6.961911&hl=en&ll=50.935331,6.961904&spn=0.00131,0.002435&sll=50.935278,6.961742&sspn=0.000655,0.001218&t=h&z=19
[02:50:50] <pfred1> ha ha I got a funny story about a glass roof
[02:51:03] <pfred1> a buddy of mine Larry he knew a guy that sold glass roofs
[02:51:15] <pfred1> the guy was like these are safe so he walks out on it and falls through
[02:51:21] <pfred1> OK it isn't too funny because he died
[02:51:44] <andypugh> It;s a really odd hotel. That middle atrium is 6 storeys, very wide and largely empty.
[02:51:44] <pfred1> still kinda funny though isn't it?
[02:51:46] <cstop> sailors prayer: "Oh Lord, Your ocean is so big, and I an so small, Please Lord, Don't fuck me now"
[02:52:15] <pfred1> the crap a salesman will do to try to sell you their product huh?
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[02:52:35] <Tom_itx> what else have they got goin for em?
[02:52:53] <pfred1> I bet they didn't get the sale
[02:53:28] <Tom_itx> a good marketing department can make anything look good
[02:53:38] <pfred1> not a dead body
[02:53:48] <cstop> malorganite!
[02:53:51] <andypugh> "Look how easily the blood mops up"
[02:54:20] <pfred1> every job i ever been on where someone died it always meant lost time
[02:55:05] <pfred1> usually the company responsible changing their name too
[02:55:26] <andypugh> Luckily I have never had that, and only one hobby-death (caving(
[02:55:27] <clytle374> yeah, they don't let you just shove the corps into a foundation anymore
[02:56:01] <pfred1> clytle374 I've worked with demolition outfits out of NYC and the stories they tell
[02:56:17] <pfred1> just flip 'em in the truck!
[02:56:25] <pfred1> one less check we have to cut that week
[02:57:01] <Tom_itx> they removed the bodies from the hoover dam because it would weaken it otherwise
[02:57:08] <pfred1> the downside of illegal workers I guess
[02:57:27] <andypugh> Most of the things I have worked with, you would need to be really patient and cooperative for them to kill you.
[02:58:20] <pfred1> andypugh one job i was on a guy was leaning into his trunk getitng something and a 4x4 fell off the side of the building caught him right at the base of the neck
[02:58:32] <pfred1> ne never even saw it coming
[02:59:12] <andypugh> Though, having said that, the current prototype cars I am driving don't fill me with confidence.
[02:59:31] <andypugh> 4x4 timber or 4x4 truck?
[02:59:51] <pfred1> 4x4 timber
[02:59:54] <clytle374> would it matter where a 4x4 truck hit him?
[03:00:05] <pfred1> was holding up a concrete deck about 4 stories over him
[03:00:12] <pfred1> it shrank and came loose
[03:00:26] <pfred1> just kind of fell over and he was in the wrong place
[03:00:41] <andypugh> There was a guy took an 8' plank into a paternoster lift when I was a student. That was fatal.
[03:00:47] <pfred1> everyone said one nail would have saved him
[03:02:19] <cstop> If you are born to drown, have no fear of fire!
[03:02:31] <pfred1> yeah anymore I'm a big believer in fate
[03:02:56] <pfred1> I've done so much stupid stuff that should have killed me and never a scratch from any of it
[03:03:25] <cstop> my guardian angles still work overtime
[03:04:23] <clytle374> I've learned 3 lessons this year. never trust a swtich, the guy driving the forklift, or the terrified cow stuck in a ditch.
[03:04:25] <cstop> angels?
[03:05:01] <pfred1> could be flim flammers playing angles
[03:05:10] <cstop> do cows go through life drunk? I mean all that fermentation in all those stomaches?
[03:05:25] <pfred1> cows aren't too bright
[03:05:27] <clytle374> wrong kind of fermentation
[03:05:33] <clytle374> cows are not dumb
[03:05:58] <clytle374> they are slow to make any decision other than fight or flight
[03:06:02] <cstop> depends on which one
[03:06:19] <andypugh> They are very curious though. If you are ever doing anything in a cow field, they will all come over to look. and they do have horribly heavy feet,
[03:06:44] <clytle374> like all other species, they come in above and below average
[03:06:52] <cstop> they do have warm teats, I'll give 'em that
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[03:06:57] <pfred1> andypugh if all you did was stand in a field and chew grass all day you'd go check out whatever too
[03:07:19] <andypugh> I think they might be a bit cleverer than horses.
[03:07:53] <clytle374> I agree
[03:08:10] <pfred1> I got some cows around the corner fro mme and whenever I drive by they do stare
[03:08:42] <cstop> horses are "place" oriented. if something bad happens , they remembver that the "place is bad, not the cause or effect.
[03:09:10] <pfred1> my neighbor next door used to have a horse i think it died though
[03:09:40] <cstop> All horses die! eventually
[03:10:15] <pfred1> really what i think happened is he was riding in my back yard and hit a hole back there I know was there in the tall grass and broke its leg
[03:10:15] <andypugh> I do recall riding my enduro bike in Wales, we stopped in a field full of cows, with their half-grown calves, There was one rather well built little bullock with little nubs of horns. He kept goring a pile of earth and them looking at us meaningfully as if to say "You see this pile of earth, that could be you, that could, if you come near these heifers"
[03:10:33] <pfred1> but I don't really talk to my neighbor so I can only speculate
[03:11:30] <pfred1> andypugh that was what I sas going to tell you earlier if you like to be disorderly we go to this GP motocross race and it is very disorderly there
[03:11:42] <pfred1> like extremely
[03:11:54] <clytle374> One of our cows breaks out when she's in heat to see the neighbour's bull, then comes home to be milked
[03:12:04] <andypugh> Well, I don't normally like to be disorderly, that;s the odd thing.
[03:12:28] <pfred1> andypugh they build the outhouses there explosion proof
[03:12:41] <pfred1> it gets that out of hand
[03:13:04] <clytle374> That can't be good if you're in it
[03:13:09] <pfred1> funny thing is they all get wrecked anyways
[03:13:13] <andypugh> The story is long and involved, but includes pretty girls and two physicists.
[03:13:20] <pfred1> clytle374 rule #1 is never go into one
[03:13:50] <pfred1> clytle374 I saw a guy once at 6 in the morning jump on top of one and break it out from under him with a sledgehammer
[03:14:14] <pfred1> they're made out of concrete casket casings with plywood doors stood on end
[03:14:31] <clytle374> girls and physicist?
[03:14:41] <pfred1> and the crowd still manages to destroy them al levery year
[03:14:50] <andypugh> clytle374: An unusual and volatile mixture
[03:15:31] <clytle374> Updating Precise to see if that fixes my odd error
[03:15:40] <pfred1> andypugh one group of people bring VW engine blocks to the event to burn
[03:15:53] <pfred1> you ever see a VW engine block burn?
[03:15:55] <clytle374> I love a good case fire
[03:16:10] <pfred1> you can see it from about 30 miles away
[03:16:26] <pfred1> it is pretty awesome
[03:16:29] <clytle374> You could see it from 100 if you had line of sight
[03:16:39] <pfred1> probably it is like ET is landing
[03:16:40] <andypugh> OK: Me and a friend (physics students) were working on a girls summer camp in upstate NY. Now, as physicists we had hardly ever seen girls, so when 3 of then asked for a lift to a concert in the car we had bought, we said "yes"
[03:17:30] <pfred1> andypugh that is where they hold this race upstate NY
[03:17:38] <pfred1> unadilla NY
[03:18:07] <andypugh> So, then it turns out that it is actually a 300 mile round trip, and after work.
[03:18:20] <pfred1> upstate NY is pretty big
[03:18:34] <andypugh> But the girls were very pretty.
[03:18:48] <andypugh> And the band was "The Monkeys"
[03:18:59] <andypugh> But the girls were very pretty
[03:19:02] <pfred1> how long ago was this?
[03:19:12] <andypugh> 1986
[03:19:27] <pfred1> not the monkees was it?
[03:19:37] <pfred1> like of TV show fame?
[03:19:45] <andypugh> Even then the Monkees were old has-beens
[03:19:52] <andypugh> Yes, them.
[03:19:59] <pfred1> well I didn't think a lot of them were talking to each other
[03:20:12] <pfred1> lot of bad blood there you know?
[03:20:22] <clytle374> So you think you're going to get lucky,, and?
[03:21:05] <pfred1> I had a friend who was a huge monkees fan
[03:21:44] <andypugh> Anyway, so, 3 hours or so after leaving work, we arrived at the Saratoga Concert Thingy, to find that the band had decided that no tickets would be sold after the concert had started.
[03:22:04] <pfred1> ought oh
[03:22:30] <andypugh> So, we were left outside the venue. Two physicists and three pretty girls.
[03:24:28] <pfred1> at the height of their popularity the monkees were bigger than the beatles
[03:24:51] <pfred1> then they released a record
[03:24:55] <andypugh> The girls found a gap in the fence. (I am not sure if this was to escape the physicists, or to see the band), slipped through, smiled sweetly at a hugely fat security guard with an enormous torch, and traipsed into the arena.
[03:25:42] <clytle374> Time to go home
[03:26:35] <clytle374> Or did you have a better plan?
[03:26:59] <andypugh> So, we couldn't get into the concert, and the girls couldn't get home (150 miles away) without us.
[03:27:14] <andypugh> What were we to do?
[03:27:52] <pfred1> andypugh bribe the guard with 10 Subway sandwiches?
[03:28:14] <andypugh> Nowadays, with mobile phones, it would be easy "We are going home, come out, or walk"
[03:28:41] <andypugh> But the girls were _very_ pretty. :-)
[03:28:57] <clytle374> So you're waiting, or sneaking in
[03:29:01] <pfred1> a lot of them are at that age
[03:29:54] <andypugh> I will point out that these were camp counsellors, not the kids at the camp. They were 17/18 to our 18/19
[03:30:51] <andypugh> Actually, Melinda was 16, I think, but that was legal at home, if not there..
[03:31:20] <pfred1> everything is legal until you've completely run out of appeals
[03:33:06] <andypugh> I am not sure what US law or convention says, but 16 + 18 doesn't strike me as actually criminal. Especially if they are on the other side of a wire mesh fence. 150 miles from home.
[03:33:23] <clytle374> Depends on the state in the US.
[03:33:40] <pfred1> yeah some places you could get married evne if she was your cousin
[03:34:29] <pfred1> didn't bill hailey marry his 13 year cousin?
[03:35:10] <clytle374> Through the fence?
[03:35:14] <pfred1> messed up his career but it was legal
[03:35:57] <andypugh> So, we mooched, and found another gap in the fence. Which I squeezed through. And found an equally fat guard, with an even bigger torch. Who insisted that I stop while he waddled over to me. In retrospect, He would never have caught me. But I was a well brought up lad, who respected authority. So I stopped. And he put me in handcuffs, and took me to a proper policeman, who arrested me.
[03:36:18] <pfred1> doh!
[03:36:24] <pfred1> yes you should have ran
[03:37:00] <pfred1> you brits i swear you're as bad as canadians
[03:37:11] <andypugh> And then, 28 years later, that made getting a US visa really quite a chore.
[03:37:33] <pfred1> no red blooded american boy of 18 would have stood there
[03:37:34] <clytle374> dang, I hope the US don't kick me out :)
[03:37:56] <pfred1> we'd have been like skip you phat boyie and took off
[03:38:37] <pfred1> andypugh know what i did for fun when I was growing up?
[03:38:52] <andypugh> Like, $100 for a certificate from the UK police saying they have never heard of me, and a US attorney's letter saying that the original court records no longer exist,
[03:38:53] <pfred1> we used to get real cops to chase us in parks
[03:39:40] <clytle374> andypugh, sorry about that, our government has lost its mind
[03:40:01] <pfred1> yeah don't blame us americans our government just does its own thing anymore none of us understand it
[03:40:11] <pfred1> it is completely out of control
[03:40:54] <pfred1> like someone said earlier doesn't matter who you vote for a politician always wins
[03:41:37] <Tom_itx> there used to be statesmen
[03:41:49] <clytle374> We are really fortunate that our government tries to keep dangerous people like Andy out, while God only knows how many thousands of sleeper we have in the USA from an open border
[03:42:28] <pfred1> yeah like the shoe bomber
[03:43:35] <andypugh> That's one good thing about being fairly old and on the internet, you meet folks. That US attorney is actually a friend from a motorbike group. He might be the (ex) director of the WI Supreme Court, but I know him as a Ducati and Bimota enthusiast :-)
[03:43:37] <pfred1> it is still funny they lost all records
[03:44:03] <andypugh> They destroy them after 25 years
[03:44:08] <pfred1> only the US government could lose documents in the Information Age
[03:45:08] <clytle374> Think maybe someday our military will establish a democracy in the USA?
[03:45:10] <pfred1> here 25 years is a life sentance
[03:45:19] <andypugh> Statute of Limitations. Except that doesn't apply to Visa applications. Heck, being found innocent doesn't apply to visa applicattions.
[03:46:01] <pfred1> andypugh be happy you aren't a US citizen
[03:46:10] <clytle374> Should have just carried a backpack full of cocaine, or nerve gas, over our southren border
[03:46:27] <pfred1> do yo uknow at the present rate of incarceration by the year 2050 every man woman and child in the USA will be behind bars?
[03:46:45] <cstop> security!
[03:47:02] <jdhnc> if santorum gets elected, every man-woman will be behind bars.
[03:47:06] <clytle374> They will parole you to work in some camps by then ;)
[03:47:11] <pfred1> well I should say every US citizen al lthe illegals will still be wandering around I'm sure
[03:47:17] <jdhnc> that was funnier in my head.
[03:47:54] <andypugh> pfred1: Extrapolation is risky: http://xkcd.com/1007/
[03:47:56] <cstop> trans gendered thoughts running rampant will get you behind bars in a hurry!
[03:48:07] <clytle374> I wish we would get back to the United States of America, less federal insanity
[03:48:49] <Tom_itx> keep wishing
[03:48:59] <pfred1> don't worry Obama has a lock on the next election
[03:49:02] <cstop> States rights my friend, If it is not explicitly the provence of the feds, then HANDS OFF, says so in the constitution!
[03:49:24] <pfred1> it is as if the repubs don't evne want to win I mean are these candidates really the best they can do?
[03:49:25] <Tom_itx> some states are taking things back into their own hands
[03:49:37] <jdhnc> people and bureaucracy never give up power by choice
[03:49:47] <pfred1> I could probably scare up winos at the bus terminal that make more sense
[03:49:49] <Tom_itx> too many federal mandates are causing them to go broke
[03:49:52] <clytle374> Funny how the rest of the constitution makes sense when viewed like that.
[03:50:07] <cstop> I'm pulling out first chance I get, Like "French Canada" Oh Oh, I don't speak Quebecquios
[03:50:16] <andypugh> In the UK, we don't have a constitution, we just guess. it actually seems to work OK.
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[03:50:44] <pfred1> andypugh my government scares me
[03:50:59] <clytle374> The UK isn't as large to more local control, like our states are supposed to be
[03:51:04] <clytle374> so more local
[03:51:12] <pfred1> seems they're capable of almost anything but the right thing at times
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[03:52:06] <cstop> it comes down to the interests of the wealthy and powerful really
[03:52:25] <jdhnc> that's actually a good thing
[03:52:30] <jdhnc> if you are wealthy and powerful
[03:52:37] <andypugh> pfred1: If you are in the US, then your government scares me too. We are largely on the same side, too. I really can see why the "other side" are so scared and hateing
[03:53:05] <clytle374> BlowBack
[03:53:30] <pfred1> andypugh they've nothing to fear as my government is so inept they bungle everything they attempt
[03:54:11] <clytle374> yeah, except our missiles hit their targets quite well.
[03:54:24] <pfred1> even if it is just an aspirin factory
[03:54:57] <clytle374> intelligence is a different subject
[03:55:16] <pfred1> how did we manage to sink so much money into afghanistan and have absolutley nothing to show for it?
[03:55:21] <andypugh> I (personally) am worried by fundametalist muslims, then nearly as much by fundamentalist christians. Fundemantalist atheists are nearly last, just ahead of the buddhists,
[03:55:23] <pfred1> I mean nothing
[03:55:32] <pfred1> it is no better today than the day we went there
[03:55:56] <jdhnc> I'm a non-practicing atheist.
[03:56:24] <pfred1> if the Universe is as big as tey say it is I say there is room for everything
[03:56:41] <andypugh> Hmmm, actually, I am going to put Zionists right at the top of "loonies who might mess up my world" and the Japanese are a little scary too.
[03:56:43] <pfred1> someplace there has to be a berarded guy in the clouds
[03:57:07] <pfred1> now whether he gives a rats ass about us is another matter entirely
[03:59:32] <pfred1> I want to know why my country sides with israel so much
[03:59:39] <pfred1> like what do we owen them?
[03:59:42] <pfred1> owe even
[04:00:07] <pfred1> I mena just once take the other side to break up the monotony
[04:02:01] <clytle374> What I don't understand if how many Christians believe that our government 's lying, cheating, and underhanded deals in the world are justified.. My bible doesn't read liek that
[04:02:29] <pfred1> well everyone is naturally going to try to strike the best deals for themselves that is just human nature
[04:02:31] <clytle374> And they aren't going to retaliate? really? Come on now
[04:02:32] <cstop> $$$ Isreal...Jews...money...it's a circle
[04:02:40] <andypugh> With apologies to anyone who wants an apology, it does seem bizarre that any entity with the power to create a million million galaxies of a million stars each, would care what one example of a thousand million members of a thousand million species did on one day of seven of a 50th of the time his planet takes to orbit that star that he created,
[04:02:45] <pfred1> well all they do is take our money
[04:03:28] <pfred1> a couple years ago isreal said they don't need our aid anymore, but send it anyway so we did
[04:04:17] <cstop> \Andy, all this "stuff" is only a back drop, theater props for the real play going on inside each of us. Don;t get caught in the props!
[04:04:20] <clytle374> andypugh, No offence taken. much of the bible is how to live.. and rest is needed
[04:04:39] <pfred1> andypugh I heard this one guy who made a pretty good case for our entire universe being a simulation
[04:05:12] <pfred1> the guy was no dope he had it all figured out
[04:05:45] <cstop> perception is the reality. Make yours gratitude. You won't be sorry!
[04:05:51] <clytle374> pfred1, it's all theory until you can escalate privileges.
[04:06:18] <pfred1> clytle374 I live in the woods so everytime a tree falls I'm like yup they do make sound
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[04:06:57] <andypugh> Some of the bible is just weird, though. Like it is virtuous in the eyes of god to offer your virgin daughters to a baying crowd of Sodomites to save some Angels (who can probably look after themselves) from a bit of gang-buggery,
[04:07:00] <cstop> so, At last we find out wwho "nobody to hear it" is! Glad it's you,
[04:07:00] <pfred1> I'm convinced they make it whether I'm around to hear it or not too
[04:07:21] <pfred1> yup I'm just a nobody living in the woods
[04:07:51] <cstop> sound is only your interpretation of the even. Some would call it a "disruption in the force"
[04:07:57] <pfred1> they drop with fair regularity
[04:08:35] <cstop> and the "sound"? densification and rarification of the surrounding air? Not much to that...
[04:08:54] <pfred1> usually it is a crack followed by a thump
[04:08:54] <andypugh> pfred1: It's a common argument. I think it goes back to the ancient greeks, though at that time it was phrased as that it is impossible to prove that you are not just a part of someone else's dream.
[04:09:27] <clytle374> andypugh, most of the old testament is beyond me.
[04:09:31] <cstop> I am dreaming that I am awake. waiting to wake up
[04:09:39] <pfred1> andypugh well this guys theory hinged on the way everything can be quantified on and off like it was computer data he was very convincing
[04:10:22] <pfred1> clytle374 they had really good hash back then is all I can figure
[04:10:38] <cstop> I strongly feel that my experience of reality is like a rug that roles out before me, and rolls up as I pass. Gone....
[04:12:10] <clytle374> andypugh, wondering about what you stated, can you pinpoint that a little better?
[04:13:32] <cstop> And at the center of each galaxy is a black hole, the doorway to another dimension.
[04:13:49] <andypugh> pfred1: it's an old argument. Really old. Rene Descarte with "I think therefore I am" was part of the same argument. If you think you are real, then you are, even if you are part of a simulation. Who can say that that simulatione we are in is not one of a milion other simulations running in a simulation? it's a fundamentally null question, it can never be proved true or false, and even if it could, it would change nothi
[04:13:49] <andypugh> our level of experience.
[04:14:21] <pfred1> I also heard that because our Universe has black holes it makes this a false dimension because it invalidates some law of the conservation of energy
[04:14:34] <cstop> A Yaqui Way of Knowing
[04:15:03] <pfred1> if nothing can escape a black hole then where does it all go?
[04:15:32] <cstop> to the other side!
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[04:15:59] <pfred1> well then that invalidates this and that side
[04:16:08] <cstop> a speck of dust on the shin of some megalioth
[04:16:43] <cstop> Duality is not reality
[04:17:02] <cstop> Lila
[04:17:07] <cstop> Play
[04:17:27] <pfred1> now everything is based on dark energy and dark matter neither of which we've actually seen
[04:17:31] <cstop> "Angels fly, because they take themselves lightly"
[04:18:14] <cstop> Nah, everything, is based on human acceptance. The rest is theory
[04:18:20] <pfred1> I'm kind of hoping we figure out how to tap into this dark energy though i mean the way gas prices are going I'll take any kind of energy I can afford!
[04:18:39] <cstop> take a solar flare for instance
[04:18:51] <clytle374> Here is a good example of why voting doesn't matter in the US http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDJ6Ay4QMw
[04:19:03] <cstop> just one...enough for all our energy needs just about forever
[04:19:10] <pfred1> is it true a solar panel will never generate the amount of energy it took to create?
[04:20:19] <cstop> true!, at least if "never" has an amortization schedule
[04:20:35] <pfred1> well I don't think they last forever
[04:20:45] <pfred1> don'tthey like oxidize eventually or something?
[04:20:53] <cstop> Same with Gasahol
[04:21:14] <cstop> Si is the most abundant of elements.
[04:21:20] <pfred1> yeah I heard it takes more fossil fuels to make gasahol than we get out of the stuff
[04:21:44] <pfred1> I thought hydrogen was the most abundent?
[04:21:45] <cstop> At the expense of real food production
[04:22:16] <pfred1> well the USA wastes over 90% of its food produciton anyways
[04:22:28] <cstop> Well, Elemament on our planet
[04:22:28] <pfred1> its crazy
[04:22:47] <pfred1> there is a lot of hydrogen tied up in water isn't there?
[04:22:52] <cstop> Spell much?" me
[04:23:29] <pfred1> not that we can economically get to it but it is still there
[04:23:40] <cstop> The oceans only cover the surface, how big is our planet?
[04:24:02] <pfred1> I hear the core of the planet is still molten because of nuclear reactions
[04:24:10] <pfred1> like it should have solidified years ago
[04:24:28] <cstop> I suppose there is a bunch of iron supporting the magnetic feilds (which flop from time to time)
[04:24:32] <pfred1> good thing it hasn't though for us
[04:24:54] <pfred1> amazing all the things that had to work in order for us to be alive
[04:25:06] <cstop> Yes
[04:25:11] <cstop> amaxing
[04:25:15] <cstop> accident?
[04:25:23] <cstop> I don't think so
[04:25:27] <pfred1> like if we didn't have a big Moon like we have higher life probably would have never evolved on this planet
[04:25:57] <pfred1> who would have thunk we're here because of the Moon though?
[04:26:10] <cstop> and we are only suited to live in such a tiny band of environments. Like goldilocks
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[04:26:39] <pfred1> yeah I am totally against manned space missions
[04:26:46] <pfred1> I don't think humans have any future in space
[04:26:46] <andypugh> This probably isn't the time and place to discuss the strong and weak anthropic principles, let alone the various versions of the many-worlds hypothesis.
[04:26:53] <cstop> means nothing to me
[04:27:17] <pfred1> andypugh that parallel dimension stuff is creepy
[04:27:30] <pfred1> but it is the only way to make sense of UFOs
[04:27:37] <cstop> Andy, will you proclam a suitable time and place? I shall like to be there!
[04:27:49] <pfred1> think about an advanced race actually traveling interstellar distances
[04:28:12] <pfred1> it'd be cheaper to actually build a planet in your system than it wold be to travel to a different one
[04:28:38] <clytle374> And men will never fly ;)
[04:28:38] <pfred1> I mean smart money would stay home right?
[04:28:50] <pfred1> men don't planes fly
[04:29:19] <pfred1> men drop like rocks
[04:29:32] <cstop> The PROOF of intelligent extraterrastial life is the fact that they have NOT tried to contact us!
[04:30:08] <pfred1> well the other side of the coin is when was the last time you walked over an ant hill and tried to talk to any of the bugs and if you did did you get any interesting replies?
[04:30:16] <cstop> Anything can fly...once!
[04:31:00] <kb8wmc> interesting subjects or your conversations fellas
[04:31:01] <pfred1> anything that could span interstellar distances would be as above us as we are over bugs
[04:31:46] <andypugh> Well, here's a thought. In 2005 MIT organised a Time Traveller convention, and no Time travellers turned up. So, either it is impossible, or we will/have destroyed ourselves before we will/did invent time travel.
[04:32:03] <pfred1> in 1976 we launched the Voyager missions which hold several human records today and they're still not out of the solar system yet
[04:32:38] <kb8wmc> I am curious if any have researched what is termed "fossil fuels"?
[04:33:15] <pfred1> this is what i don't get at the end of WWII the germans were making their fuel out of coal how come we don't do that today?
[04:33:49] <Tom_itx> one of our mines has been on fire for decades
[04:33:51] <clytle374> Precise is going to be downloading for several more hours and I'm not waiting, good night all
[04:33:56] <pfred1> one?
[04:33:58] <andypugh> kb8wmc: In what sense?
[04:34:14] <pfred1> Tom_itx there are coal fires going on that put out more CO2 than the whole human race
[04:34:27] <Tom_itx> yup
[04:34:33] <andypugh> pfred1: Err, no.
[04:34:35] <Tom_itx> they tried to flood them once
[04:34:45] <pfred1> andypugh seriously
[04:34:56] <pfred1> there is a bad one in china and another one in africa
[04:35:01] <andypugh> And I mean, not, not at all
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[04:35:15] <Tom_itx> i was referring to the us
[04:35:32] <pfred1> Tom_itx we got them too but they're not the biggest
[04:35:44] <kb8wmc> I find it difficult to believe that if my old cow "Bessy" dies out in the pasture, if she will turn into oil and deposit herself 30,000+ feet beneath the surface of the earth...
[04:35:46] <pfred1> a whole town collapsed because of one once
[04:35:48] <kb8wmc> some of the geologists have held for almost a hundred years now, that oil is abiotic
[04:36:03] <kb8wmc> the russians have several research papers on the subject
[04:36:10] <cstop> Indonesian forest burn under the surface
[04:36:23] <pfred1> oil came from oceans dying
[04:37:16] <pfred1> I remember the ground fire that used to burn between newark and Hoboken
[04:37:29] <andypugh> Yes there are big fires. But they are equivalent to single mines. Every ton of coal from every working mine gets burned within weeks. And there are thousands of mines. A natural mine fire is limited by air supply, too.
[04:37:38] <pfred1> man at night in the summer you'd see these glowing cracks in the ground
[04:37:38] <kb8wmc> could be pfred1, but some research shows that oil is churned up every day from the supposed molten core acting against the underside of the mantles as I understand it
[04:38:00] <kb8wmc> and it deposits the released hydrocarbons in any fissures that it can find
[04:38:12] <pfred1> kb8wmc well when that wel llet go in the gulf it made me wonder just how rare the stuff really was
[04:38:28] <kb8wmc> agreed
[04:38:41] <cstop> Well, times were different when "oil" was being made. Global warming was in full swing, and there was an odd mix of gasses that really helped plants along. Go figure...It's not like that now. I want it back the way it was! (crys if the traditionalist)
[04:38:47] <pfred1> and i was shocked at how badly the whole recovery was bungled
[04:39:02] <pfred1> I figured humans were a bit better than we apparently are
[04:39:12] <kb8wmc> as I understand it, there is no where on earth where oil cannot be found, getting it out is another story
[04:39:41] <pfred1> this frakking stuff is kind of crazy
[04:39:41] <andypugh> There is no evidence for signifiacant abiotic oil and the amino acid content of the oil that is minedindicates that it came from living things.
[04:40:04] <pfred1> people's sinks catching on fire and what not
[04:40:21] <kb8wmc> are you sure it was actually bungled pfred1 ? it could just possibly been a successfully carried out operation
[04:40:35] <cstop> Enron!
[04:40:45] <pfred1> kb8wmc you think they did it on purpose?
[04:41:26] <andypugh> Not that abiotic oil is impossible, there is methane everywhere you look in the universe, and it is likely polymerise in all sorts of places. But the stuff we burn is old, dead, stuff, ]
[04:41:48] <pfred1> seabed methane ice is pretty freaky stuff too
[04:42:03] <kb8wmc> I don't know...but I know that by simple flip of a coin anyone would be about 50% correct in making a decision, not 100% always wrong....
[04:42:27] <pfred1> evidence suggests the seas have coughed up lots of it at times and the whole planet has gone off like a flash bulb as a result
[04:42:34] <cstop> Nah to much trouble. But huge balls or "tar wash up from the Santa Barbara channel, sub ocean leaks of petrolium
[04:42:55] <kb8wmc> maybe it is how we perceive right or wrong, some people would think others are crazy for holding on to positions they believe to be right
[04:43:00] <pfred1> I seen beach tar balls I always figured it was leaking out of tankers
[04:43:14] * pfred1 grew up in New jersey
[04:44:13] <cstop> We would call PFed1 a "joey" ;-)
[04:45:04] <kb8wmc> andypugh: there was a man, who passed away several years ago now, he was a young officer pilot during WWII and was tasked with flying around geologists all over North Africa looking for oil sites
[04:45:26] <pfred1> I remember whne the Elmhurst tanks went up and that pipeline in Edison too I could see both of thsoe from my house
[04:45:37] <andypugh> About twice the volume of the BP leak seeps naturally into the Gulf each year. But it takes all year, and it's not localised, and it's different. The plus side is that this means that the Gulf of Mexico is full of oil-eating bugs, so hopefully it will get dealt with.
[04:45:59] <pfred1> andypugh yeah apparently lots of stuff in the ocean likes oil
[04:46:33] <kb8wmc> his name was Col. Fletcher Prouty, there is still a website dedicated to him last time I looked, where he covers what the geologists informed him of, and how long that knowledge had been known, even some of the Russian documents on the subject
[04:46:38] <cstop> So, just what does happen to all the rubber that wears from the tires of passing automobiles? Bugs?!
[04:47:27] <cstop> Heck more and more our own foods are made of "petro chemicals. sick egh!
[04:48:04] <pfred1> if i missed my exit on the turnpike this is what i saw http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_B8FZWhBd6x0/TC-dzg4eysI/AAAAAAAABW4/TE3whWOSoIA/s1600/Bayway-Refinery-lg.jpg
[04:48:16] <pfred1> pictures just don't do the place justice I must say
[04:48:25] <andypugh> pfred1: I do suspect that there was a political incentive to try to use the Gulf spill to break BP, I don't think that US interests are at all happy that an Anglo-Dutch oil company like BP is so big in the US oil extraction business,
[04:48:55] <pfred1> andypugh well wasn't BP trying to fix it?
[04:49:09] <cstop> Is BP the "biggest" revenue in the world? I think it might be...so I heard
[04:49:34] <pfred1> andypugh all I'm saying is it was shocking it took so long to get it under control
[04:50:02] <pfred1> granted I'm sure it wasn't easy but I'd think a big cmpany would be prepared for that kind of thing
[04:50:47] <cstop> I fitted out a heli-copter for the Sultan of Brunei. BP money I am sure
[04:51:04] <pfred1> andypugh also I am convinced the USA does kind of want to hold onto it's reserves until the end
[04:51:22] <andypugh> BP are no 4. 1 is ExxonMobil, 2 is Walmart, 3 is Shell. Walmart, however, are not primary industry.
[04:51:24] <kb8wmc> no matter on origin, I still have difficulty believing that when ol' Bessy dies and trees fall, and plants and birds and everything else die, they just don't lay there and decay, and don't deposit themselves as oil miles beneath the surface
[04:52:00] <pfred1> when oil was created it happened in unique circumstances
[04:52:12] <kb8wmc> oh
[04:52:17] <cstop> NO OIL is being made in this era! Fact! embrace the change
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[04:52:21] <andypugh> kb8wmc: They do need to get buried good and deep first.
[04:52:36] <cstop> and lots of 'em
[04:52:41] <pfred1> well at least oil we cna tap
[04:53:14] <pfred1> I thnk the commercials in the 70s of dinosaurs dying reuined a lot of people's perceptions of reality
[04:53:30] <pfred1> oil ain't dino poo
[04:53:38] <cstop> Imagine a tropical jungle ...gone crazy!
[04:53:43] <kb8wmc> pfred1: then would that preclude being classified as fossil fuels then
[04:53:56] <pfred1> they were very tiny fossils
[04:54:23] <kb8wmc> lol
[04:54:28] <cstop> an ocean choked with plankton
[04:54:32] <pfred1> yup
[04:54:47] <cstop> lemmings!
[04:54:50] <pfred1> then the thole thing dropping dead all at once and getting buried
[04:55:10] <pfred1> doesn't happen everyday but in the past couple billion years it has happened enough times
[04:55:11] <kb8wmc> it makes for a good story pfred1
[04:55:21] <andypugh> But you can see peat beds, and see how they have been there a long time, and will stay there. Some of them could easily be buried by sediment or volcanos in the short term, then be further buried by tectonics in the longer term.
[04:55:51] <cstop> a sucession of "dropping dead Where are the dreationists when you need them, they could tell us the real events
[04:56:04] <cstop> creationists
[04:56:09] <andypugh> Coal is quite obviously made of trees. Limestone caves 1000m deep are clearly made of shells,
[04:56:29] <pfred1> andypugh thats a lot of clams
[04:56:35] <kb8wmc> the creationists are driving their fossil fueled autos to their church
[04:56:51] <pfred1> yeah how some cling to the literal bible is beyond me
[04:57:08] <pfred1> what is the world to them 6,800 years old?
[04:57:31] <pfred1> the devil put them fossils in the ground to fool you!
[04:57:33] <kb8wmc> I read some of the earlier posts about giver-ment, most interesting
[04:57:48] <cstop> Wait! Every culture on every continent has it's version of the deluge. Heck, I even have one!
[04:57:52] <pfred1> who ever thought the devil was such a boring guy?
[04:58:15] <pfred1> he has nothing better to do than to run around and fake fossil evidence
[04:58:16] <kb8wmc> "government", a disease masquerading as its own cure!
[04:58:39] <kb8wmc> lol
[04:58:41] <pfred1> should we evne be scared of a creature like that?
[04:59:18] <cstop> If they put flouride in the water we should be
[05:00:13] <pfred1> the way some people think makes me think there is more than just flouride in some folks water
[05:00:26] <kb8wmc> yes sir
[05:00:32] <andypugh> Why put stuff in the water? Chemtrails from planes are so much easier :-)
[05:00:50] <cstop> this conversation is much like the egg machine. A pretty pattern for the entertainment of any who may look upon it
[05:00:56] <kb8wmc> maybe it is a combination of things
[05:01:03] <kb8wmc> try everything
[05:01:25] <kb8wmc> in either case, someone has a purpose behind the actions
[05:01:29] * pfred1 has partaken of some funny water and never had such strange notions
[05:01:48] <andypugh> My excuse is that I am drunk. I hope that is true of you guys too.
[05:02:17] <pfred1> andypugh I've been drunk enough in my past to excuse all of my tomorrows
[05:02:22] <kb8wmc> haven't even started yet andypugh , maybe I should consider it
[05:02:46] <andypugh> And I just noticed that it is 5am ! Eeek!
[05:02:59] <cstop> the Bilderberg society
[05:03:05] <pfred1> andypugh take it from me never drop acid then try to siphon gasoline
[05:03:06] <andypugh> OK, must sleep,
[05:03:09] <kb8wmc> heard of them
[05:03:26] <kb8wmc> night to you andypugh
[05:03:46] <cstop> night then Andy!
[05:03:49] <andypugh> Night, err, morning all
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[05:05:29] <kb8wmc> good conversations, but I am gonna call it quits for tonight....good night to all
[05:05:39] <pfred1> least not unless your idea of a good time is to rip a hole in the fabric of time and space and live an eternity in an instant
[05:05:40] <kb8wmc> have a good one
[05:06:02] <kb8wmc> best to all
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[05:06:25] <pfred1> because that is what happened to me when I tried it!
[05:07:33] <pfred1> then it really got weird
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[05:10:24] <cstop> must have been something you ate
[05:10:45] <pfred1> I blame it on the energy crisis of the 70s
[05:11:03] <pfred1> see after that they put anti siphon devices into all filler necks
[05:11:16] <pfred1> butdamned if I was gonna take no gas for an answer!
[05:11:16] <cstop> If you remember the 70's, you were not there...
[05:11:26] <pfred1> I was there
[05:11:40] <pfred1> but i didn't really come of age until the 80s
[05:11:41] <cstop> whoa flash back
[05:12:32] <cstop> night owl
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[08:17:09] <craynerd> Hi, has anyone any experience modding a pc powersupply as a cnc supply?
[08:17:58] <Jymmm> at more than 12V, no.
[08:19:14] <mrsun> buy a better powersupply with the voltage you want insted? :)
[08:19:29] <craynerd> I have one of these cheapo 6560 3 axis sets an I`m trying to source a cheap supply
[08:19:39] <craynerd> I know...I`m just being a tight arse!! :p
[08:19:58] <Jymmm> it's an UNregulated PS that you want.
[08:20:13] <Jymmm> xfmr + rectifier + caps
[08:20:24] <craynerd> unregulated...ok ! Will need to google that one...I`m a bit of a noob when it comes to cnc
[08:20:58] <Jymmm> just a transformer, bridge (or four diodes), and some big capacitors.
[08:21:05] <craynerd> I`ve setup a few steppers on a rotary table with a dedicated PIC to control it for dividing, but never a full system off a PC
[08:21:43] <craynerd> I`ve just used an 18v laptop power supply to run those when I make them for people
[08:22:20] <mrsun> craynerd, these regulated power supplies doesnt cost much realy =)
[08:22:43] <mrsun> Jymmm, is a unregulated better then a regulated for cnc applications? :)
[08:22:58] <Jymmm> mrsun: Yes, due to the BEMF
[08:23:17] <Jymmm> Reasd thispage in full will help understand the basics... http://www.geckodrive.com/ark-2/support.html
[08:23:19] <mrsun> and bemf is? :)
[08:23:24] <craynerd> OK... problem is, how do I know the total voltage and current needed? I believe over 24v and the tb6560 chips can easily blow desite their ratings
[08:23:28] <craynerd> back emf!! :D
[08:23:42] <Jymmm> Back EMF, which is produced when a motor slows/stops.
[08:23:42] <craynerd> I knew that one... :D not got a bloody clue what it means!!
[08:24:00] <craynerd> ahh!
[08:24:02] <mrsun> ahh =)
[08:24:14] <Jymmm> the motors PRODUCE electricity (in essense)
[08:24:15] <mrsun> hadnt seen that short for it before =)
[08:24:44] <Jymmm> just read that link
[08:24:48] <craynerd> ahhh! , so it is the emf produced BY the motor which then damages things!!#
[08:25:00] <Jymmm> READ
[08:25:16] <Jymmm> and damages nothing.
[08:26:19] <mrsun> oh well, the regulated one i have works fine atm so ill just kick it with that for now, expensive to upgrade to transformers =)
[08:27:19] <craynerd> to be honest Jymmm, call me a thick git but I`ve read the first few paragraphs an graph an it isn`t meaning much to me
[08:27:42] <mrsun> need to figure out how to remove the metal in the big hole ive done for the cabinett without a milling machine =)
[08:27:52] <craynerd> then again, I do have The Smurfs on an my three year old shouting in my ear hole.
[08:28:08] <mrsun> it SUCKS that i just rebuild, rebuild rebuild .... the mill was put together, working fine ... "oh lets make a new electronics enclosure *rip everything apart*" ...
[08:28:14] <Jymmm> craynerd: Just understnad what you can, and maybe read it a few times other days may help
[08:28:48] <Jymmm> craynerd: just skip other the confusing parts for now
[08:28:48] <craynerd> Will it also help about my power supply choice or just bemf understanding?
[08:28:55] <Jymmm> yes
[08:29:33] <Jymmm> No, I'm just fucking with you guys, it's all about scarry clowns!
[08:29:44] * Jymmm rolls eyes!
[08:30:01] <craynerd> ohhh yes!
[08:30:27] <craynerd> section 9 - Scary Clowns and their percetion by the Community
[08:31:54] <craynerd> Jymmm... I don`t like this.. I already have coulrophobia
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[09:04:10] <craynerd> just another question, sorry
[09:04:32] <craynerd> just been to look at my motors and these are currently fitted: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/51460.pdf
[09:05:23] <craynerd> they are only 5v!
[09:06:08] <craynerd> is this normal. like I said, the only stepper motors I`ve ever used, the drivers have been fed 18v from a laptop supply.
[09:06:57] <craynerd> talking balls...ignore me
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[09:09:55] <craynerd> actually, will someone please talk to me for a second.
[09:09:59] <craynerd> I have one of these: http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/3753-TEP-educational-CNC-machine-using-TechCAD
[09:10:05] <craynerd> that isn`t my post..
[09:10:43] <craynerd> to run it, I`m using the original software called TECHCAD which is aweful. Imagine making the worst software you could, then double it!
[09:11:10] <craynerd> So first step is to get the two axis running off emc2,
[09:11:14] <craynerd> linuxcnc**
[09:11:58] <craynerd> could I utilise the powersupply from the original machine to run this? What would I need to see, voltage outut and is there any way of testing the max current?
[09:12:27] <craynerd> I`m just most concerned about this step of test power supply because I don`t want to blow anything!
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[09:53:55] <archivist> craynerd, the stepper drivers control the current so dont worry about current
[09:55:30] <archivist> I would use the old supply in the old unit it is likely suitable
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[10:21:18] <yoyo_> hi
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[10:38:48] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[11:00:17] <archivist> craynerd, mjolinor who wrote that forum post lurks in here sometimes
[11:00:18] <archivist> !seen mjolinor
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[11:03:34] <yoyo_> where can I find current documentation of api *VCP
[11:05:18] <jthornton> VCP as in Virtual Control Panel?
[11:05:35] <yoyo_> yes
[11:05:48] <yoyo_> pyVCP or gladeVCP
[11:06:19] <jthornton> the manual contains the current documentation
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[11:06:50] <yoyo_> I'm trying from some time now to start with simple button. defeat
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[11:07:06] <yoyo_> realy :) try to add something :)
[11:07:23] <jthornton> I don't understand
[11:07:58] <yoyo_> I'm trying to add simple button. and I'm defeat by that task.
[11:08:18] <jthornton> pyvcp or gladevcp?
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[11:08:41] <yoyo_> pyvcp is including xml.dom.ext from python what is depricated
[11:09:06] <yoyo_> gladevcp is not pressent on my instance
[11:10:23] <jthornton> so I assume your not using a stock LiveCD install then
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[11:10:48] * jthornton waits for more information
[11:10:50] <yoyo_> no :) I'm on gentoo
[11:11:33] <jthornton> good luck then
[11:11:45] <yoyo_> :)
[11:12:16] <yoyo_> as always. fight fight fight
[11:12:49] <jthornton> by your choice
[11:13:19] * archivist cannot understand the gentoo mentality
[11:13:26] <yoyo_> jthornton: I'm a c, php developer I'm not able to work on standard distro
[11:13:58] <archivist> c and php work just fine on my standard distro
[11:14:01] <jthornton> c and php works on my Ubuntu box
[11:14:39] * jthornton hears an echo in here LOL
[11:15:09] <yoyo_> bright :) try to build zenstudio on cross platform compiller
[11:15:50] <archivist> who needs zen studio! just use a normal editor
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[11:16:54] <yoyo_> zen studio it is not only a editor :) it is a possibility to inject "C" code "lib" to your php engine
[11:17:06] <yoyo_> my target from work is not a x86 machines :)
[11:18:08] <yoyo_> bit it's my job. how the gladevcp ?
[11:22:20] <yoyo_> can someone direct me where is *.so with widgets for glade ?
[11:23:20] <jthornton> have you downloaded the source code?
[11:23:45] <yoyo_> jthornton: emc and glade
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[11:28:01] <jthornton> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GladeVcp
[11:28:14] <jthornton> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/gui/gladevcp.html
[11:29:40] <yoyo_> really I'm using linux 11 years now. asking questions on irc it's a last resort. I know RTFM
[11:31:02] <jthornton> I assume what your looking for is in the source code but I would have to 'find' it
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[12:44:15] <bedah> hi
[12:46:26] <jthornton> he left I think
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[13:28:09] <yoyo_> I give up. can someone explain me how to make z axis probing ?
[13:28:43] <jthornton> do you have a probe input?
[13:29:23] <yoyo_> I have connected button and I'm able to get input from it by hal
[13:29:52] <jthornton> and it is connected to motion.probe-input in hal?
[13:30:31] <yoyo_> ok I can make that one sec.
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[13:34:20] <yoyo_> jthornton: ok DONE. what next ?
[13:35:42] <jthornton> now you can do a probe move http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#_g38_x_straight_probe_a_id_sec_g38_probe_a
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[14:01:56] <mazafaka> Our small plant has its own wood shop and I plan to get some sliced pieces of wood there and store for the wood stove in the garage.
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[14:02:49] <craynerd> anyone any suggestions for a reasonably prices spindle, suitable for small cnc router
[14:03:02] <craynerd> sorry, full router spindle...motor and all.
[14:03:49] <craynerd> all the wood router i see seem too big for my machine
[14:04:06] <jdhnc> proxon?
[14:04:14] <jdhnc> bosch colt?
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[14:05:18] <cpresser> craynerd: those kress FME1050 spindles are quite popular in germany
[14:05:23] <cpresser> i also use those
[14:05:25] <mazafaka> jthornton: I finally think at least for coal I need a flue damper. I can make one normally-open as a sheet of metal which inserts into the pipe at some angle and is being fixed, otherwise pipe will be open. But do I need to restrict the amount of fumes if I use wood in the stove?
[14:05:27] <yoyo_> jthornton: thx !
[14:06:03] <craynerd> that bosh colt looks a good one
[14:06:08] <craynerd> I`ll look at the kress
[14:06:24] <jthornton> mazafaka: I use a flue damper to control the burn rate of wood
[14:06:37] <jthornton> yoyo_: glad you got that part figured out
[14:06:56] <craynerd> I`m still looking at the bosh and I still think that`ll be too big
[14:07:23] <craynerd> by machine is only 13" x 13" and the z axis needs to be made as it currently has a solonoid
[14:08:27] <mazafaka> jthornton: what if the door of the wood stove is open and I use flue damper, will it make heat to go into the room and still making all amount of fumes to go into the pipe?
[14:09:03] <jthornton> no, you will get a room full of smoke
[14:09:16] <craynerd> kress looks a good size
[14:09:37] <mazafaka> heh. but otherwise i can not get any heat from the stove made of 2 mm thick stainless steel
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[14:10:10] <jdhnc> put a heat exchanger in it and use forced air
[14:10:59] <jthornton> the heat is radiant not hot air
[14:11:58] <mazafaka> what if i want to paint and instead, I even need to vaporise the air in the room a little for the possible dust in the air to settle down...
[14:14:24] <jthornton> just open the door to your heater after starving it for oxygen for a while and the air will vaporize... along with your hair :P
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[14:15:42] <mazafaka> well i use water and some hot piece of metal.
[14:16:59] <mazafaka> I think without flue damper the amount of air going from the street to the garage and then back to the street is just huge. I somehow need to restrict this 'flue' (as you call it).
[14:17:31] <jthornton> I just call it what it is
[14:17:46] <mozmck> if you have a good wood stove that is air tight, they generally have an air damper to control the air coming in.
[14:17:57] <jthornton> and yep without a flue damper your heat just goes out to the street
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[14:18:11] <mazafaka> But sounds like 'mandarins are flu dampers' ;)
[14:18:30] <jthornton> and a flue damper to control the air going out
[14:18:40] <jthornton> could be
[14:19:51] <jthornton> all the wood heaters and stoves I've seen have a flue damper built in or included with the kit or the instructions tell you to install one in your flue pipe
[14:19:52] <mozmck> jthornton: I don't have a flue damper and haven't even seen one on most of the better woodstoves. They are air tight though with an air input damper. I heat only with wood and mine works pretty well.
[14:20:05] <mozmck> interesting
[14:20:10] <jthornton> all the ones we have here are cheap
[14:20:31] <jthornton> and leaky
[14:20:59] <mozmck> I have an old ashley type here, and the air input bypass hole is a little big, so it does much better with a good bed of ashes to limit air flow.
[14:21:28] <mazafaka> my stove is self-made, it only has a door, mozmck the stove: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilyagalkin/6877887061/in/photostream and weird thing of which it's made: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilyagalkin/6877885387/sizes/l/in/photostream/
[14:21:50] <mazafaka> what ashes are?
[14:21:55] <jthornton> https://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=309&product_id=498
[14:22:00] <jthornton> is the one I have
[14:22:56] <jthornton> and one of these https://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=310&product_id=506
[14:23:30] <mozmck> I like to call a fireplace a heat pump. It pumps the heat out of the house and up the chimney.
[14:23:45] <jthornton> ashes = remains of wood after burning
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[14:24:13] <jthornton> lol at the fireplace
[14:25:01] <mozmck> jthornton: my stove is similar to the second link you sent. but I bought it used so I didn't get any flue damper if there was one originally. I bet it might help when my ashes are not thick enough.
[14:25:21] <mazafaka> mozmck: it sounds not just interesting as jthornton had said, but also safely. Because fumes make dead
[14:25:35] <jthornton> the instructions tell you to install a flue damper in the flue pipe, it does not come with that heater
[14:26:08] <mozmck> My dad has a regency and it does really well. We used to have a huge cast iron stove and it was hard to keep it air tight.
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[14:26:52] <mozmck> I built my stove pipe out of 8" x 1/8" steel pipe, welded up. Might be hard to put a damper in now.
[14:27:53] <jthornton> just have to drill two holes and have someone hold the damper while you push the pin in
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[14:28:10] <mozmck> mazafaka: yeah, you don't want fumes.
[14:29:14] <mazafaka> I also want to upper part of the chimney to be less hot at the place where metal touches the concrete walls
[14:29:40] <mozmck> jthornton: maybe so. It works pretty well now so I might not have enough incentive to add another project to my list. It heats a 2200 sq ft house to 75 or so pretty nicely, and will keep it there all night with one good sized log.
[14:31:01] <mazafaka> mozmck: also, kids or someone. what if regular flue damper closing 100% will be used causing danger.
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[14:31:31] <jthornton> flue dampers don't close 100% they have holes in them
[14:31:33] <jthornton> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPDvjB0EZaA
[14:31:35] <mozmck> mazafaka: I put a large piece of pipe around the chimney where it goes through a wall.
[14:32:47] <mazafaka> mozmck: it's welded to such a pipe in late evening at about -15 Celsius with me alone. the wood stove levitates in the air and waves a little being kept on the chimney
[14:33:47] <mazafaka> When the door of my stove is closed, wood or coal stops to burn in about 15 minutes or so
[14:34:06] <mozmck> heh, I like the reuse of the mixer bowl!
[14:35:27] <mozmck> sounds like it is pretty air tight then. If you can put a little sliding flap over a hole to control how much air is let in, it may work pretty well.
[14:37:23] <mazafaka> little sliced pieces of wood burn down to ashes very soon. I probably need to try with relatively big-sized dry logs
[14:38:30] <mozmck> true. the harder the wood the better. oak is good, and around here we have a tree called bois d'ark that is quite a bit better than oak.
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[14:38:52] <mozmck> hard wood has more btu of energy than soft.
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[14:40:32] <mazafaka> Yeah, I already close the door a little more so the air comes into the stove at the low part of the door. Although, edges are too sharp and i need another 'door's butt' (a thing which you take in hand to open the door, don't know how it's called. 'door's butt' sounds correct)
[14:43:00] <mazafaka> mozmck: I know. i use some, it's not really dry. But our habit to celebrate 'New Year' makes many fir-tree to get sliced. I have took many at trash bins. then put it on the sled naking a huge rig and take to the garage.
[14:43:47] <mazafaka> Some heat-resisting glass would offer infra-red rays to heat all around.
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[16:06:01] <yoyo_> cu
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[16:43:13] <mazafaka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzqpm3_i8AM but all this tan is a bit too much, and nutririon itself could be less sophisticated. stewed potato would be fine enough
[16:47:16] <mazafaka> i myself hate watever restricting me of, sqay. mtb ryde through 20 kilometers in -20 celsius when it is somehow snowing, or through about 100 kilometers at summer.
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[16:51:24] <JT-5i25> pcw_home: small typo in the 5i25 manual Breakout Power Option "The breakout 5V power is protected by per connector PTC devices..."
[16:52:12] <JT-5i25> might be "The breakout 5V power is protected per connector by PTC devices..."
[16:53:08] <JT-5i25> now my real question, does the 5i25 need to be powered down to swap the W1 and W2 jumpers?
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[17:29:16] <JT-5i25> pcw_home: also on the TB1 Connector page pin 5 VIN is listed as 8-32v
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[17:43:12] <yoyo_> can I put my pyvcp panel as a next tab in main window or it can be only as a panel ?
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[17:48:34] <psha> not easy but technicaly possible
[17:55:57] <yoyo_> emc2 is great program. but add to it something out of the box is a suicide
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[18:05:45] <psha> not so hard
[18:05:58] <psha> at least starting with 2.5 you may add anithing you want as a new tab
[18:06:02] <psha> (nearly anything)
[18:06:10] <psha> for example console, mplayer :D
[18:06:31] <psha> with 2.4 you need some extra stuff in .axisrc
[18:07:29] <psha> but pyvcp is a bit harder
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[18:09:25] <IchGuckLive> hi all around the globe
[18:09:42] -!- ve7it [[email protected]] has joined #linuxcnc
[18:09:45] <IchGuckLive> this wars the sexiest Rio carnaval so far if seen
[18:10:14] <IchGuckLive> example http://s.glbimg.com/jo/g1/f/original/2012/02/18/dsc_4963.jpg
[18:11:04] <yoyo_> boobs !
[18:12:09] <IchGuckLive> fright trains like full of yoyo_
[18:12:49] <jdhnc> that's a lot of man-made material
[18:14:09] <IchGuckLive> even the presentation lady on bahia did show up there boobs
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[18:15:01] <yoyo_> man don't wear bras :P
[18:15:04] <yoyo_> man
[18:15:06] <yoyo_> men
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[18:16:04] <IchGuckLive> but also a butyfull show with all the colors
[18:17:08] <IchGuckLive> http://glo.bo/yvJetA -> movie
[18:17:27] <IchGuckLive> http://glo.bo/zGIEeD pictures Nr20 ..!!!
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[18:20:12] <IchGuckLive> tonight the next 6 sambaschools will take a walk in the dark hot sambadrome live on TV
[18:21:38] <IchGuckLive> yoyo_: that sounds like 2 and a half man
[18:21:47] <IchGuckLive> O.o
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[18:24:15] <yoyo_> i recommend new episode of big bang theory
[18:25:37] <IchGuckLive> oh the 4th episode list is not that good as they all have girlfriends
[18:25:52] <IchGuckLive> its a kind of a miss it is better for them to have no n
[18:26:12] <IchGuckLive> and penny also added lots of kilo
[18:27:42] Vq_ is now known as Vq
[18:27:50] <jdhnc> kilopascals?
[18:29:03] <IchGuckLive> Dr. Leslie Winkle got a baby from here Girlfriend
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[18:37:29] <IchGuckLive> but sara rue lost 50lbs WHOW at 40 its the best http://www.cardiogirl.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Sara-Rue-Weight-Loss.png
[18:42:50] <IchGuckLive> ok by for today more tomorrow if you like Europ TvGlobo Hotbird 2:30MEZ US TVBrasil on 72W
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[18:49:56] <Loetmichel> OUCH... isntallung a new CNC Computer... linuxcnc livecd. (10.04)... jittertest goes up to 7556/29673... when the Screensaver (GLTEXT) activates.
[18:50:24] <Loetmichel> MAY have to to with the oooollld matrox PCI graphics board.
[18:50:41] <Loetmichel> but is that normal on a AthlonXP 2600?
[18:55:27] <bedah> dissable all screensavers!
[18:56:02] <cradek> it usually depends more on the video card and driver than the motherboard/processor
[18:56:31] <cradek> if you want to use AXIS you need working opengl, so disabling the screensaver will not help you.
[18:58:18] <Loetmichel> so: change the videocard to something with 3d?
[19:01:44] <Loetmichel> bedah: why? maybe i am a little spoiled by the fact that my own CNC computer has a c2d 2,4ghz... but there i play sauerbraten(cube) and still have jitter less than a teht of tis old box here.
[19:01:53] <Loetmichel> tenth
[19:02:24] <Loetmichel> (and a decent onboard graphics with some 3d-support :-)
[19:03:27] <Loetmichel> i want to donate the old box to a local open workshop (Hackerspace FFM) so they can mill AND surf the web... atm there is only one PC ;-)
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[19:15:48] <Loetmichel> hmmm... found an old TNT2 M64... is that sufficient?
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[19:50:27] <vin321> hi all
[19:54:07] <vin321> i think i may have got lucky i by passed the opto-coupler for each clock line and place a jumper wire on my tb6560 bord with out changeing the caps the sound nealy dissapeard
[19:55:33] <vin321> its runing faster not sure about missing steps yet
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[20:33:18] <cstop> vin321 Why did you do that?
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[21:06:26] <JT-5i25> I have this power supply for my plasma http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/PS-10N56R.pdf with 12v regulated and 5v regulated. The 0v on each one is isolated from ground.
[21:07:07] <JT-5i25> should I ground each one? the 56v - 0v is grounded through the Gecko 203v's
[21:07:38] <JT-5i25> the 12v and 5v is going to the 7i76 power rail
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[21:14:57] <pcw_home> the 12V is for the field I/O?
[21:15:14] <ries> JT, the way I have it is that the low power electronics have a separate ground (not to may case or rails of the gecko's)
[21:15:41] <ries> The gecko's are grounded on my case, but that's only on the rail. I don't have the 0V of the gecko grounded to the case
[21:19:47] <pcw_home> On the 7I76 you are probably OK with using power from the 5I25 for the 5V. I would probably keep the 12V isolated to keep machine noise out of the PC
[21:32:24] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: yes the 12v is for the field power
[21:33:19] <pcw_home> The 5V draw of the 7I76 is low enough that I would just use the 5I25 power for that
[21:33:36] <JT-Shop> ries: my 203v's the 0v is bonded through the gecko to the base of the 203v
[21:34:08] <JT-Shop> ok I'll use the 5i25 5v for the 7i76
[21:34:34] <JT-Shop> I just "discovered" that with my meter
[21:34:56] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: did you see my earlier post on the manual?
[21:34:59] <ries> JT-Shop: I have mine 0V of the gecko floating.. goes straight to the power supply But.. I haven't looked in my cabinet for a while...
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[21:37:10] <ries> anybody seen KimK lately?
[21:37:11] <JT-5i25> I just pulled the wire from the Power Ground on the 203v and it is 0 ohms to the case
[21:37:53] <pcw_home> JT-Shop I saw the old one about TB1
[21:39:33] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: small typo in the 5i25 manual Breakout Power Option "The breakout 5V power is protected by per connector PTC devices..."
[21:40:01] <mrsun> http://i40.tinypic.com/2elbdrt.jpg <-- yeey finaly got to making the new connection panel for the stepper driver enclosure =)
[21:40:09] <JT-Shop> might be "The breakout 5V power is protected per connector by PTC devices..."
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[21:41:01] <JT-Shop> and also on the TB1 Connector page pin 5 VIN is listed as 8-32v, should that be 5v
[21:41:12] <JT-Shop> fresh download of the pdf's today
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[21:59:11] <Jymmm> mrsun: For future reference; you want to keep the signal lines (DB9) away from the mains (IEC) if you can.
[22:00:16] <Jymmm> mrsun: Also, LABEL your axis connectors! It's far too easy to wire inside as XYZ and forget it's reversed on the outside ZYX.
[22:00:37] <Jymmm> or vise versa.
[22:00:54] <Jymmm> mrsun: and the cbales too
[22:02:13] <Jymmm> mrsun: Looks good btw.
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[22:03:00] <mrsun> Jymmm, will label dem, im not totaly done =)
[22:03:26] <mrsun> Jymmm, hmm ok .. yeah might be a good idea to do, i might redo the panel in the future as its made from a cad drawing easy to change and mill anew ?=
[22:03:28] <mrsun> =)
[22:04:04] <Jymmm> If you are using shielded cable, not as much of a big deal.
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[22:04:22] <Jymmm> Also, only ground one end of a shield cable, not both.
[22:05:29] <jrcrane> Trying to find "Camview" and get this response "Couldn't find package camview".
[22:05:55] <pcw_home> JT-Shop what page,manual is the TB1 error?
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[22:10:23] <JT-Shop> one second I'll find it again
[22:11:03] <JT-Shop> online it says page 15 of the 7i76 pdf
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[22:11:34] <JT-Shop> TB1 Pin 5 VIN LOGIC POWER 8-32V
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[22:22:38] <mrsun> Jymmm, what is the problem with having the data cables close to the mains? that it transfers power to it ?
[22:22:57] <Jymmm> mrsun: Yes, FREE WIRELESS ELECTRICITY FOR ALL!
[22:23:12] <Jymmm> mrsun: Electrical noise
[22:23:13] <mrsun> haha :P
[22:23:23] <mrsun> Jymmm, the power connector is a emi filter also =)
[22:23:35] <mrsun> but i guess there will be noise anyhow
[22:23:36] <Jymmm> so?
[22:24:24] <pcw_home> Page 15 (manual page 9) in 7I76 manual starts
[22:24:26] <pcw_home> CONNECTORS
[22:24:27] <pcw_home> FIELD POWER CONNECTOR
[22:24:29] <pcw_home> TB1 is the 7I76s field power connector. TB1 pinout is as follows:
[22:24:31] <pcw_home> TB1 PIN SIGNAL FUNCTION
[22:24:32] <pcw_home> 1 VFIELD FIELD POWER 8-32V
[22:24:34] <pcw_home> (Bottom pin)
[22:24:36] <pcw_home> which is all correct AFAIK
[22:28:21] <andypugh> pcw_home: Did you get that patched file, and does it work?
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[22:38:19] <pcw_home> I haven't had a chance to try it (Ill try on Monday)
[22:40:19] <andypugh> It's just that time is getting a bit short.
[22:41:29] <pcw_home> Did you push it (I've been reluctant to pull do to the renaming kerfuffle)
[22:41:42] <pcw_home> due to
[22:44:10] <andypugh> No, I don't want to push it without testing, but I don't have any hardware with 32 or 64 element-wide data. I sent you a complete new sserial_auto.c file to just plonk in and recompile.
[22:44:24] <pcw_home> AKAIK it only causes trouble with the fast LCD output mode on the 7I73 so its not a show stopper
[22:44:48] <andypugh> Well, I changed eveything else too, as they would all fail with 64 bits.
[22:46:41] <pcw_home> I'll make sure I do it first thing Monday
[22:46:42] <pcw_home> Practically speaking there are really no physical quantities that need more than 24 or so bits so its only odd corners that would have errors
[22:46:44] <pcw_home> (like our quad characters on the 7I73)
[22:52:26] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: is VIN LOGIC POWER 8-32V as well?
[22:52:40] <JT-Shop> pin 5
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[22:54:53] <pcw_home> Yes
[22:55:32] <pcw_home> (current firmware will bellyache below 10V however)
[22:55:33] <andypugh> pcw_home: No plan for a 96-bit card then?
[22:55:50] <Loetmichel_> *grrrr* am i right that the default kernel of the 10.04 livecd doesent support a Tadeon x1650pro (RV530)?
[22:55:53] <pcw_home> bit that would be bits
[22:55:54] <Loetmichel_> radeon
[22:56:01] <pcw_home> but that
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[22:58:02] <andypugh> I think I left bits unchanged, but changed all the others to support 64 bits wide (double precision A/D for example)
[22:58:22] <pcw_home> do bits have the same error? (data with width >31 and type bits has wrong mask)
[22:59:07] <pcw_home> I think they are parsed differently
[22:59:09] <andypugh> The error was endemic, but all the other data types hit the problem at 64 not 32.
[23:00:02] <pcw_home> OK thats good so no existent cards except 7I73 in a funny mode tickle the error
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[23:01:59] <pcw_home> Overall it works really well even with weird things like the 7I77 with its packed 13 bit analog out fields
[23:02:05] <andypugh> I just found the same problem somewhere else. (in the code that assembles the data into buffers)
[23:02:30] <andypugh> I will fix that and send you a new version.
[23:03:13] <pcw_home> I do know that simply fixing the mask for the 32 bit stream fixed our LCD problem
[23:04:07] <andypugh> Yes, I am fixing a problem that will almost certainly never be seen. I could just document that you are only allowed 63 bits :-)
[23:05:27] <pcw_home> I can see a type "bits" being bigger but only type bits
[23:07:04] <pcw_home> and we could always break it up in the process TOC (lie about it size) to work around driver limitations
[23:07:16] <andypugh> If you want more than 64, then you will have to split it into two banks, I am afraid. Or I will have to create a 96-bit datatype from scratch.
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[23:08:27] <pcw_home> I think its better for us to just break the data objects up (rather than have all that overhead all the time)
[23:09:20] <pcw_home> like I said I doubt any type other than bits has any excuse for being bigger than 32 or maybe 64 bits
[23:10:12] <pcw_home> and data of type bits can always be broken up into smaller chunks
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[23:16:19] <andypugh> This is going to need some test code. I have very much forgotten how I did the bit-slicing.
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[23:20:53] <Nick001-Shop> jthornton - are you around?
[23:21:10] <pcw_home> I wonder if such a big re-write belongs in 2.5?
[23:21:51] <pcw_home> since everything but one corner case works now
[23:22:45] <Nick001-Shop> I have some questions about your hardinge tool changer
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[23:27:42] <pcw_home> I need some better HAL test code for the SSERIAL remotes (maybe a loopback) so I dont have to test every bit/field by hand
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[23:54:04] <JT-Shop> Nick001-Shop: I'm out in the shop
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[23:59:00] <alex_joni> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/418343_331920770184305_100000991540750_970703_449684920_n.jpg