#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-03-20

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[00:29:06] <ssi> dammit :(
[00:29:48] <alex4nder> sup
[00:30:50] <ssi> guy asked me to make some parts for him
[00:30:53] <ssi> and one of the parts I flat can't make
[00:31:00] <ssi> and it pisses me off, because it should be easy
[00:31:56] <Tom_itx> why can't you make it?
[00:31:57] <ssi> but my big manual lathe is just flat worn out, and I can't do it :(
[00:32:17] <ssi> it's a 7.5" long piece of 2.5"x1/4" DOM tubing, bored at each end for a bearing seat
[00:32:29] <ssi> and my big manual lathe is the only lathe that's reasonably big enough to do it
[00:32:38] <ssi> and it just won't cut that seat accurately enough
[00:32:50] <ssi> it's cutting a taper, and it can't hold a diameter even over 5/8"
[00:33:48] <alex4nder> yah
[00:33:51] <alex4nder> that sucks
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[00:43:15] <archivist> last large job like that on my worn lathe I was adjusting dia as it turned, one has to keep ones wits about you
[00:49:44] <elmo40> tighten the jib ;)
[01:00:50] <archivist> upturned v on a southbend
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[01:30:14] <ssi> PCW: new bitfile works, thanks :)
[01:30:50] <ssi> scale of 0.02 seems to be right on the money
[01:31:17] <frysteev_> wooo
[01:31:58] <ssi> dare I try to get the servo amps hooked up and jog the axes?! D:
[01:32:15] <frysteev_> DARE
[01:32:22] <ssi> :D
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[01:33:49] <elmo40> take a vid. I wanna see your hair all frizzy if something shorts ;)
[01:34:05] <ssi> I don't think it'll be quite that bad
[01:34:23] <ssi> I think all I'm lacking is the +/-12v bias supply for the amps
[01:34:28] <ssi> and I can take that from the PC power supply
[01:34:38] <ssi> however, I don't have limit switches wired yet, and servos without limits scare me
[01:34:57] <elmo40> that they would
[01:35:17] <frysteev_> just have the estop handy
[01:35:25] <ssi> I don't have a physical estop yet either
[01:38:03] <frysteev_> hurry up
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[01:43:29] <jdhnc> oh gn0!
[02:01:14] <alex4nder> yoh
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[02:42:09] <ssi> k both resolvers are working, and seem to be working pretty darn well despite the overdriven signals
[02:42:21] <ssi> also I'm able to measure my backlash
[02:42:36] <ssi> X has almost imperceptible backlash... maybe 0.0001" tops
[02:42:42] <ssi> Z is more like 0.036"
[02:44:44] <ssi> resolver wiring: http://p.twimg.com/AoZcHjLCQAEwcRC.jpg:large
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[03:25:22] <aitek> why spindle reverse does not send pwm to the motor?
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[03:26:48] <aitek> the spindle is working fine, but the reverse direction does not work
[03:27:07] <aitek> i connect net spindle-rev motion.spindle-reverse => parport.0.pin-17-out
[03:27:28] <aitek> when i do m4 the output goes on
[03:27:36] <aitek> but i do not get any pmw
[03:29:09] <aitek> curr-dc in pwmgen is always 0 unless i do M3 then it goes up
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[04:01:19] <aitek> anyone knows how spindle reverse direction is suppose to work?
[04:02:29] <aitek> it looks to me as if the pwmgen is asked to produce a negative pmw wich he can't since the minuimum is 0
[04:03:07] <aitek> and my spindle is stopped at pwm 0
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[06:53:51] <aitek> need help with spindle m4 reverse rotation
[06:54:30] <aitek> i cannot get any pmw to my spindle
[06:55:10] <aitek> in m3 normal clockwise rotation everything is fine
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[07:01:50] <aitek> http://pastebin.com/aynxYcYe
[07:02:03] <aitek> pastebin of the stepconf i'm using
[07:02:25] <aitek> help please
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[07:14:22] <aitek> http://pastebin.com/bu3zEYJ7
[07:14:49] <aitek> i edited the stepconf removing spindle speed halgui
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[07:15:58] <aitek> in this setting you can check on curr-dc of pwmgen and notice that i get a value only when the spindle is going clockwise
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[07:50:51] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:52:47] <alex_joni> Jymmm: cool
[07:52:54] <Jymmm> ?
[07:53:06] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[07:53:44] <Jymmm> alex_joni: what ya talkin bout willis?
[07:54:56] <alex_joni> the pic you've sent me silly
[07:55:16] <Jymmm> alex_joni: what pic?
[07:58:06] <aitek> need help with spindle reverse rotation
[07:58:42] <aitek> i cannot get any pmw if use m4
[08:00:45] <aitek> http://pastebin.com/bu3zEYJ7
[08:00:58] <aitek> this is a stepconf example
[08:01:30] <aitek> check curr-dc of pwmgen and notice that you get a value only when the spindle is going clockwise
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[09:07:53] <aitek> need help with spindle reverse rotation
[09:08:06] <aitek> i cannot get any pmw if use m4
[09:08:13] <aitek> http://pastebin.com/bu3zEYJ7
[09:08:21] <aitek> this is a stepconf example
[09:08:34] <aitek> check curr-dc of pwmgen and notice that you get a value only when the spindle is going clockwise
[09:22:36] <archivist> no need to repeat, perhaps ask a better or differently worded question
[09:23:05] <archivist> and stick around for possible answers
[09:24:13] <aitek> ok thanks
[09:24:33] <archivist> stepconf is only for the simpler setups edit the ini and hal files for more complex
[09:24:56] <aitek> yes i can do that
[09:25:14] <aitek> but the problem is there and i don't see why
[09:25:40] <archivist> stepconf xml means nothing to me
[09:26:01] <aitek> ok got it i'll give you hal and ini
[09:27:19] <archivist> note once you hand edit hal and ini you cannot use stepconf after
[09:29:29] <aitek> i know
[09:29:54] <aitek> i just tough the stepconf was easyer to setup
[09:30:10] <aitek> http://pastebin.com/SB21LTha
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[09:31:59] <awallin> spindle reversing corresponds to negative rpm? so you should see the same kind of pwm, but a reversed direction-bit on the pwmgen output?
[09:32:16] <aitek> http://pastebin.com/sGYmLCYR
[09:32:53] <aitek> i see 0 on pwmgen
[09:33:06] <aitek> when i try reversed direction
[09:33:31] <aitek> i think i should have same pwm but only an output that activate the other diretion
[09:34:06] <archivist> have you scoped the other pin that you think is direction
[09:34:44] <aitek> you mean the pwm is passed on the direction?
[09:34:56] <aitek> i'll try to check
[09:35:14] <awallin> loadrt pwmgen output_type=0 <--- this causes your pwmgen to have only one output pin
[09:35:53] <aitek> i need more than one/
[09:35:54] <aitek> ??
[09:36:16] <awallin> how would positive and negative rpm be different? if you had only one output pin?
[09:36:53] <aitek> with a direction switch output
[09:36:59] <aitek> like a brushless
[09:37:14] <aitek> you have a pin for direction and one for step
[09:37:36] <aitek> you don't need 2 step to round the other direction
[09:37:45] <awallin> right. that is output_type=1 I think. check the docs.
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[09:37:53] <archivist> awallin, I assumed net spindle-ccw => parport.0.pin-17-out is to set direction
[09:38:37] <awallin> we would really need a graphical view of these graphs. so much easier to spot errors.
[09:39:28] <archivist> I know someone is working on a graphical thing
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[09:40:54] <aitek> Sorry PC went off
[09:41:00] <awallin> yes, tom3p has sent me some pics/demos. Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on that.
[09:42:30] <aitek> in the spindle documentation i did not see mentioned that i should use 2 pmw outputs to use different rotation directions
[09:43:39] <aitek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples_spindle.html#Spindle%20Direction
[09:45:10] <awallin> it might be possible to get the spindle-direction directly from motion.spindle-??? then you would not need two outputs from pwmgen
[09:45:41] <aitek> motion.spindle-reverse
[09:46:48] <awallin> yes, ok. Then your problem might be that pwmgen wants only positive input values as it is setup now. So you would need to put an abs() component on the rpm-value. maybe.
[09:48:07] <awallin> I guess motion.spindle-speed-out is negative with M4? check with halmeter.
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[09:50:56] <aitek> checking
[09:51:53] <aitek> yes negative
[09:52:06] <aitek> motion.spindle-speed-out is negative with M
[09:53:07] <awallin> I'm guessing there are two fixes: 1) output_type=1, and take the direction output from pwmgen, OR 2) put abs() in front of the pwmgen input and keep output_type=0
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[09:55:22] <aitek> ok i'll try that thanks a lot
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[10:57:24] <Milos> Where can I get more stuff like this http://www.demandperipherals.com/home.html
[10:57:26] <Milos> more simple stuff like
[10:57:36] <Milos> echo "some-device-number some-servo-speed" > /dev/ttyUSB0
[10:57:43] <Milos> rather than messing around with "raw bytes" and C and all that
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[11:20:08] <KimK_laptop> Milos: Hi, this is not for closed-loop CNC use, right? I see that their quad and octal servo controllers are for hobby/RC servos, not what CNC users consider servos. And their quadrature input device, although shown picking up pulses from a motor disc (drilled holes), has an update rate set in multiples of 4ms, which is already 4 times slower than linuxcnc's default value. For open-loop steppers, it might work, I don't know.
[11:24:40] <KimK_laptop> Milos: Maybe if you told us more about what you would like to do? Or what you are trying to avoid?
[11:25:35] <Milos> KimK, have you heard of Python?
[11:25:45] <Milos> Sorry if it's an obvious question, but I want to make a point.
[11:25:58] <Milos> What I want to avoid is re-inventing the wheel.
[11:26:22] <Milos> I want to be able to communicate with a servo controller without doing something like this: http://dpaste.com/718984/
[11:26:58] <Milos> Which makes absolutely no sense.
[11:28:45] <KimK_laptop> So you want to use an external motion controller with LinuxCNC (LCNC)?
[11:29:00] <Milos> Well, I asked the same question in ##electronics and someone asked me to check out ##linuxcnc
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[11:29:09] <Milos> So I suppose you "make people's lives easier" such that you don't need to write stuff in plain bytes.
[11:29:31] <Milos> If that means LinuxCNC then great.
[11:30:05] <KimK_laptop> I think if you look into LCNC that you will find it much easier to use than that. It is easy to set up with ini files and so forth.
[11:30:43] <KimK_laptop> Many setups are already included. What are you trying to accomplish overall?
[11:30:48] <alex_joni> Milos: again.. we need to know what you want to do, to answer your question
[11:31:18] <Milos> I don't have anything speific I want to do - I just want to give commands to devices without speaking another language.
[11:31:21] <alex_joni> LinuxCNC is a software product for machine control (milling machines, lathes, plasma cutting machines, etc)
[11:31:22] <Milos> It is a generic question.
[11:31:40] <alex_joni> then probably LinuxCNC is not a good fit for what you need
[11:32:10] <KimK_laptop> You can use the HAL portion of LCNC to connect to assorted devices, if that helps.
[11:32:22] <Milos> Ah. I'm talking more like small motors and things like that.
[11:32:26] <Milos> Little circuits.
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[11:33:30] <archivist> size is not part of the problem probably
[11:33:37] <KimK_laptop> Sure, maybe you could set up a simple PID loop in HAL, for example. And not use the CNC-specific software. Would that help?
[11:34:31] <KimK_laptop> You haven't said if you just want to spin motors out of curiosity or if you have some ultimate larger goal in mind.
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[11:48:58] <KimK_laptop> Milos: Good luck, I'll scroll back later, post any questions. Goodnight.
[11:49:58] <Milos> KimK_laptop, thanks for being so helpful - I'll definitely take a look at linuxcnc and get back if I've got questions.
[11:50:06] <Milos> Good night :-)
[11:52:11] <jthornton> he must not be from around here...
[11:53:07] <Tom_itx> not many are from swampeast Mo :)
[11:53:32] <jthornton> LOL, nope it's pretty quiet here
[11:53:45] <jthornton> hell, can't even get internet here
[11:53:58] <Jymmm> (expect for the sounds of dialup)
[11:54:25] <jthornton> how do you type that sound in
[11:54:53] <SWPadnos> brrrrrrrrrrrrrr fwizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[11:54:56] <Jymmm> http://www.dialupsound.com/
[11:55:01] <SWPadnos> ^^ the sound of a modem :)
[11:55:21] <jthornton> LOL yea that's it
[11:55:42] <Jymmm> CONNECTED 9600 BAUD
[11:55:54] <alex_joni> 120 BAUD
[11:56:09] <Jymmm> NO CARRIER
[11:56:26] <SWPadnos> +++ATH
[11:56:35] <Jymmm> I can type faster than 300 baud!
[11:57:05] <SWPadnos> but not 1200 baud ...
[11:57:40] <Jymmm> only on days ending in 'y'
[11:57:58] <SWPadnos> actually, I'd be surprised if you could keep up 300 baud typing for very long. That's ~300 WPM
[11:58:48] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Well, get a 300 baud modem and lets find out!
[11:58:59] <SWPadnos> I have one ...
[11:59:03] <Loetmichel> SWPadnos: you forgot: "trrrrtrrrr Boing noing tschhhhhhhhhh"
[11:59:07] <SWPadnos> and a serial port to use it ;)
[11:59:14] <SWPadnos> that's a fax ;)
[11:59:26] <Loetmichel> no, mnp4/5
[11:59:41] <SWPadnos> true, the higher speed modems had a few extra noises at the end
[11:59:43] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: a 300 baud? Not a 1200/2400 baud one turned down
[11:59:55] <SWPadnos> yes, I think I may have one of those
[12:00:03] <Jymmm> Damn geek!
[12:00:04] <SWPadnos> but I don't know if I have a handset that'll fit in it
[12:00:20] <Jymmm> acoustic modem?!
[12:00:30] * Loetmichel has somewhere his old dioscovery 1200...
[12:00:31] <SWPadnos> hmmm, lemme try to remember that far back
[12:00:53] <Loetmichel> and at least last year it was still operational
[12:01:13] <SWPadnos> no, actually it isn't an acoustic coupler, it's an old Radio Shack modem, and now I'm not sure if it's 300 baud or 1200 baud. I think it may be 1200.
[12:01:29] <SWPadnos> but we'll never know, because I sure as hell don't have the time to look for it to find out :)
[12:01:30] <Jymmm> I picked up a beige one of these last week http://images.smithgear.com/2500-DESK-BLACK-BIG.jpg
[12:01:33] <SWPadnos> see you later
[12:01:39] <Jymmm> laters
[12:01:45] <SWPadnos> heh, cool
[12:02:01] <Jymmm> LOUD ringer on it too
[12:02:13] <SWPadnos> there's a bluetooth "headset" that's the shape/size of an old handset
[12:02:27] <Jymmm> I had one, was crap
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[12:03:01] <SWPadnos> ah, here's one that plugs in to the cell phone: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/7830/
[12:03:31] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Thinkgeek solde the bluetooth handset too
[12:03:44] <SWPadnos> that's almost cheap enough to buy for the comic value. hmmm.
[12:04:20] <jthornton> my neighbor showed me that he could plug his cell phone into his laptop and it acted like a modem, does that work with an iphone too?
[12:04:30] <SWPadnos> hahahahahahahaha
[12:04:37] <SWPadnos> is you computer a Mac? :)
[12:04:54] <jthornton> I have a Mac, but I think the HD is toast
[12:05:03] <Jymmm> jthornton: It's called a "tethered connection"
[12:05:06] <SWPadnos> actually, it can. you need a tethering plan, which usually means "pay us more money for less bandwidth", but it works
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[12:05:28] <SWPadnos> and you can use android phones as well - doesn't have to be an iPhone
[12:05:29] <jthornton> he, said he just plugs his in without buying the "air card"
[12:05:32] <SWPadnos> and you can use wifi
[12:05:58] <SWPadnos> sure, there are a bajillion tethering apps, which share the 3/4G connection via WiFi
[12:06:07] <Jymmm> or USB
[12:06:10] <SWPadnos> yep
[12:06:15] <Jymmm> ot Bluetooth
[12:06:16] <SWPadnos> anyway, see you all later
[12:06:18] <jthornton> he turned off the wifi
[12:06:23] <jthornton> ok see you later
[12:06:58] <jthornton> and plugged his phone into the usb port and it connected to the internet
[12:07:50] <Jymmm> jthornton: Yes, but most carriers charge extra to allow you to do that.
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[12:08:33] <jthornton> he said that ATT can't stop you from doing that and he doesn't pay anything to do it
[12:09:09] <Jymmm> Yes, like anything, there are ways around getting billed for it.
[12:09:33] <jthornton> oh yea he said using the cell phone as a modem
[12:19:41] <frysteev_> with acoustic coupler too?
[12:25:22] <jthornton> ah there it is, you just have to turn on internet tethering
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[12:38:30] <Loetmichel> jthornton: normal usage, even for a iphone.
[12:38:45] <Loetmichel> any android or nokia phone can do it, too
[12:38:57] <Loetmichel> with bluetoot and(or usb
[12:39:30] <Loetmichel> and androids have the wossobility to be a wifi-AP also
[12:39:35] <Loetmichel> possibility
[12:39:56] <jthornton> seems the 4s does not have that option any more
[12:40:04] <Loetmichel> thethering?
[12:40:13] <Loetmichel> ... .oO
[12:40:43] <jthornton> yes, it now has "set up personal hot spot" that sends you to a web page
[12:41:08] <Loetmichel> i think my aversion to anything with an I inthe front just got reassured ;-)
[12:43:08] <Loetmichel> not that android is any better technically, but at least you get the oportunity to install anything you want if you have to ;-)
[12:43:16] <Loetmichel> even to wirte your own
[12:43:22] <Loetmichel> write software
[12:43:42] <ssi> I've written plenty of my own software for the iphone
[12:44:00] <ssi> (which reminds me; I need to get that damn thread app put up for folks here)
[12:44:08] <jthornton> :)
[12:45:32] <ssi> too many projects, too few hours!
[12:45:32] <jthornton> ssi: I got a mac but I think the HD is doa
[12:45:32] <jthornton> I know that feeling
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[12:45:32] <ssi> I have working position readouts on both axes on the hnc though!
[12:45:33] <jthornton> Nice!
[12:45:33] <skunkworks> Yah!
[12:45:49] <skunkworks> ssi - what was the issue? (I have only been keeping track sporatically)
[12:45:56] <ssi> skunkworks: problem in the bitfile
[12:46:03] <ssi> skunkworks: pcw made me a new one and it works great
[12:46:11] <skunkworks> new bit file?
[12:46:11] <ssi> I still have the issue that I'm overdriving the ADs
[12:46:24] <ssi> but it at least works so far
[12:47:47] <jthornton> all right I'm off for a bit
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[12:48:26] <ssi> I also had to build a new computer for my g0602 control last night
[12:48:39] <ssi> the one I had was locking up right after boot consistently
[12:48:56] <ssi> also it's been on a piece of metal that was screwed to the wall behind the lathe, and so it got chips flung at it constantly :D
[12:49:10] <ssi> so this time, machine control in a box: https://p.twimg.com/AobmQv3CQAAqUGQ.jpg:large
[12:51:29] <skunkworks> Cool!
[12:51:55] <skunkworks> What mesa hardware are you using?
[12:52:46] <skunkworks> This is our mess - http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/panel/electricalbox.jpg
[12:52:49] <ssi> that machine is just a 7i43
[12:52:59] <ssi> the hnc is using a 5i23, 7i49, and 7i42
[12:53:03] <Jymmm> skunkworks: NO PANDUIT?
[12:53:26] <ssi> skunkworks: hehe looks nice :D
[12:53:31] <ssi> skunkworks: is that opto22 stuff?
[12:57:18] <jdhnc> ssi: does PC latency matter with a 7i43?
[12:58:04] <Jymmm> jdhnc: No, as it's generating the pulses, not the CPU
[12:58:15] <skunkworks> ssi: yes - a few versions of opto22
[12:58:42] <skunkworks> well - latency does matter - it just doesn't have to be as good as software stepgen.
[12:58:48] <jdhnc> I forgot to order a db25-idc26 or wtf cable
[12:58:51] <Jymmm> skunkworks: It does?
[12:58:54] <ssi> this new machine I just put together has crazy low latency
[12:58:55] <skunkworks> yes
[12:58:58] <ssi> like 6000ns max jitter
[12:59:18] <Jymmm> skunkworks: that makes no sense, that's the whole purpose of getting a card that generates pulses
[12:59:19] <skunkworks> ssi: what is it? I have had good luck with asus/amd boards
[12:59:37] <ssi> it's a shuttle
[12:59:47] <ssi> it was a board that was in a little toasterbox
[12:59:59] <skunkworks> Jymmm: yes - into the mhz - not even possible with the printer port. but the computer still needs to have decent latency for the servo thread.
[13:00:33] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Wait, am I confusing mesa boards here maybe?
[13:00:46] <Loetmichel> *ha* chinese ebayer has delivered.... and it even operates ... after filling the lighter gas in ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12943
[13:01:53] <skunkworks> Jymmm: I don't think so... You still need a reatime capable(sp) computer for emc to work well.
[13:02:00] <skunkworks> (or at all)
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[13:03:08] <Jymmm> skunkworks: But the sole purpose of getting a (pci based) mesa board is to OFFLOAD the pulse generation away from the mobo/cpu so there is not latency or other bullshit like that.
[13:03:21] <ssi> Jymmm: yeah and the 7i43 does that
[13:03:43] <Jymmm> ssi: That's not what skunkworks is saying though.
[13:03:47] <ssi> sure it is
[13:03:51] <ssi> without the mesa hardware
[13:04:00] <ssi> you need a REALLY low latency machine to run the fast stepgen loop
[13:04:02] <Jymmm> no, were tlaking WITH mesa hw
[13:04:09] <ssi> WITH the mesa hardware
[13:04:17] <ssi> you need a low latency machine to run the slower servo loop
[13:04:35] <skunkworks> Jymmm: yes. to offload the stepgen/pwm/encoder counting... But linuxcnc still needs to read and write info in a timely manner... say every ms or .5ms. so the computer needs to have decent latency (don't know how bad) say 50us or so
[13:05:01] <Jymmm> O_o Somethings not right there.
[13:05:06] <skunkworks> heh
[13:05:10] <ssi> my other machine is measuring like 44000ns, and it's running ok
[13:05:16] <skunkworks> I am probably not explaining it well.
[13:05:28] <ssi> but if it were a software stepping machine, it might not do so well
[13:06:17] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Maybe, and you have no panduit, so you can't do it!
[13:06:31] <ssi> panduit what
[13:06:36] <ssi> I have panduit tie wrap guns
[13:07:24] <Jymmm> skunkworks: (you dont think I was gonna let you get away of showing off your cabinet without me commenting, did you?"
[13:07:31] <Jymmm> )
[13:07:51] <Jymmm> skunkworks: lol
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[13:13:57] <ssi> I may end up adding sserial stuff to the hnc
[13:14:08] <ssi> I have a feeling I'm going to run out of IO otherwise :)
[13:17:32] <skunkworks> ssi: I had 96 i/o and have used them all up.
[13:18:00] <ssi> yea well your machine is on the large side :)
[13:18:20] <skunkworks> (2 5i20's with a 7i33 and 7i48)
[13:18:24] <ssi> I will have plenty of IO for the machine, but I don't think I'll have enough for a panel and a pendant too
[13:18:56] <skunkworks> I have not used all of the encoder inputs or analog outs.
[13:20:16] <skunkworks> The sserial stuff looks cool.
[13:20:36] <skunkworks> 2 pins gives you what - 48?
[13:20:43] <ssi> something like that
[13:21:38] <ssi> 7i69 is 48
[13:22:12] <ssi> The RS-422 interface at 2.5M Baud is compatible with HostMot2s SSLBP smart serial interface which can support as many as 32 7I69 cards for a total of 1536 I/O bits with real time update rates up to 10 KHz and cable lengths up to 100 feet.
[13:22:32] <skunkworks> neat
[13:24:11] <frysteev_> ssi has been reading the website
[13:24:18] <ssi> yeah!
[13:24:32] <ssi> 7i73 is the pendant interface, and it can do local encoder decoding too
[13:24:46] <frysteev_> all cool stuff if you can afford it
[13:24:56] <ssi> I CAN AFFORD ANYTHINGGGGGGGGgggggggg......
[13:26:42] <Jymmm> ssi: Your girlfriend(s)/wives are glad to hear that!
[13:27:04] <frysteev_> cool, can you buy me a 7143 and 7149 and 7137ta then mail them to me?
[13:27:19] <ssi> frysteev_: i could... but I probably won't ;)
[13:27:39] <ssi> I actually have a spare 7i43 and 7i37TA sitting here
[13:27:44] <ssi> Jymmm: she's learned to deal with it
[13:28:21] <ssi> how else do you suppose I can get away with "ohai, I bought a forklift today because I had something heavy to move"
[13:28:37] <Jymmm> narcotics?
[13:28:50] <ssi> not much into narcotiics
[13:29:18] <Jymmm> hide the checkbook?
[13:29:19] <Loetmichel> ssi: sounds a bit like my wife: "ha have NOTHING to wear!"
[13:29:32] <Loetmichel> <- looks in the closet: "and that ?"
[13:29:41] <ssi> Loetmichel: yea, and much like me, she earns the money, so damn right she can spend it ;)
[13:29:44] <Loetmichel> "thats old, weared onece/not pretty!"
[13:30:03] <Loetmichel> ssi: harhar
[13:30:31] <ssi> :D
[13:30:47] <frysteev_> ssi: well if you already have them,...
[13:31:01] <frysteev_> ill let you borrow my robot arm on the weekends if you do :P
[13:31:02] <Loetmichel> to be honest: that sentence is only said by my wife jopkingly
[13:31:06] <Loetmichel> jokingly
[13:31:17] <ssi> frysteev_: I'll trade you for the big laser!
[13:33:08] <ssi> and now, I have to drag my ass to work, so I can earn money to blow on CNC shit :D
[13:34:02] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[13:34:15] <ssi> back in a bit
[13:34:16] * Loetmichel is sitting at work ;-)
[13:34:51] <Loetmichel> ircing via VNC
[13:34:53] <Loetmichel> ;-9
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[13:58:18] * FinboySlick ah ha! Declares Loetmichel a german spy!
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[14:05:21] <cpresser> a slight offtopic question: how do i open a char-device on linux exclusively? like one process calls open(), when the second process calls open() on the same filename, i want it to fail
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[14:10:01] <jdhnc> afaik, you can't. You can use lockf() though. It is also kind of broken.
[14:20:07] Cylly is now known as Loetmichel
[14:20:25] <Loetmichel> FinboySlick: why?
[14:22:50] -!- jarray52 [jarray52!~solargrin@unaffiliated/jarray52] has joined #linuxcnc
[14:23:08] <jarray52> Do any pre-written open source engineering licenses exist? I'm looking for a GPL like license for open source engineering projects. I apologize in advance if the question is off topic.
[14:23:18] <ssi> back!
[14:24:43] <jarray52> ssi: Was that addressed to me?
[14:24:47] <ssi> nope
[14:27:07] <cpresser> jdhnc: thanks a lot. this is what i was looking for. now i am about to find out how broken it actually is :)
[14:27:47] <cpresser> jarray52: use google :) creative-commons might do
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[14:31:40] <FinboySlick> Loetmichel: Just being silly about the fact that (if I recall) you make secure hardware for the military and that you're poking though your work setup using VLC.
[14:37:03] <cradek> jarray52: I'm not sure what you mean by engineering projects. can you elaborate a bit? are you still talking about software, or something else?
[14:37:09] <Loetmichel> FinboySlick: correct
[14:37:22] <Loetmichel> but i am not poking though anywhere
[14:37:42] <Loetmichel> and i am the admin, so it would be no problem to use irc directly...
[14:37:58] <Loetmichel> but i dont want to see any irc in the netlogs ;-)
[14:39:44] <jarray52> cradek: I'm talking about CAD drawings/models, gcode, assembly drawings, mathematical models, written material to help with manufacture and modification of the product(stuff like tractors, diesel or propane generators, water pumps, etc.).
[14:39:46] <ssi> I just leave irc up in a screen session on one of my servers
[14:39:52] <ssi> and I shell in and reconnect from wherever I am :)
[14:40:14] <FinboySlick> Loetmichel: But that completely destroys my joke.
[14:40:26] <Loetmichel> FinboySlick: i know. Intentional ;-)
[14:41:17] <cradek> jarray52: that is a tough question. for something like gcode, which is very much an executable program that IS its own source code, the GPL is perfectly applicable in my opinion
[14:41:23] <Loetmichel> SWPadnos: my home PC is running 2477 anyways
[14:41:29] <ssi> I'm not getting nearly enough sleep :(
[14:41:36] <Loetmichel> so i use the IRC from there
[14:41:46] <cradek> about paper/printed documentation, there is also a GNU license for that, but I don't know much about it
[14:41:50] <Loetmichel> 'cause i dont like IRISSI or similar
[14:42:09] <ssi> 2477?
[14:42:10] <Loetmichel> oh, sorry, ssi was ment
[14:42:13] <Loetmichel> meant
[14:42:14] <ssi> I use irssi, I rather like it
[14:42:15] <Loetmichel> grrr
[14:42:32] * Loetmichel sorts his fingers (again!)
[14:42:45] <FinboySlick> Loetmichel: I see what you did there, you used a german stereotype to destroy my german stereotype.
[14:42:46] <cradek> but I'm not sure if that answers your questions. there may not be good, simple answers.
[14:43:13] <Loetmichel> FinboySlick: :-)
[14:43:22] <jarray52> cradek: That protects the gcode, but it still allows manufacturers to modify the code, produce a product, and sell the product without releasing the gcode modifications.
[14:44:03] <ssi> gcode is so machine specific that I don't see the point in releasing it
[14:44:12] <jarray52> cradek: They are selling the output of the code. Not the code or a binary.
[14:44:42] <cradek> jarray52: yes if you want that kind of protection (must send a copy of the gcode with every widget sold) the GPL is not going to give you that
[14:45:07] <Loetmichel> FinboySlick: so germans are recognisezed as spys? i thought 007 was/is british?
[14:48:08] <jarray52> cradek: Yes. I want full manufacturing instructions(CAD, gcode, coating information, computational models, and assembly drawings) sent with every widget sold.
[14:48:29] <FinboySlick> It's an old old stereotype, but it served my purpose.
[14:48:33] <cradek> jarray52: ok I understand; then I'm changing my answer to "I don't know", sorry
[14:48:59] <jarray52> cradek: Thanks.
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[14:49:55] <ssi> jarray52: write a new license
[14:50:16] <vin321> can you ping me in the direction of timing config for http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110834096417?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 plx
[14:50:29] <vin321> point*
[14:51:03] <jarray52> cpresser: The creative commons license allows manufacturers to sell a product without sending CAD, gcode, coating information, computational models, and assembly drawings to customers.
[14:52:36] <jarray52> ssi: That's what I was planning if I couldn't find such a license. It is a lot of work, and I'm not a lawyer.
[14:52:52] <ssi> I've never heard of such a thing as you're suggesting
[14:52:58] <ssi> it may exist...
[14:53:02] <ssi> but you may have to write it
[14:54:07] <jarray52> ssi: It would extend the copy-left methodology into the realm of manufactured products thus reducing their cost and improving their quality.
[14:54:22] <ssi> I'm not so sure about that
[14:54:38] <jarray52> ssi: Why?
[14:54:58] <ssi> well as I said before, gcode isn't particularly portable
[14:55:06] <ssi> and designs aren't as portable as they might oughta be
[14:55:31] <ssi> if a company is competent enough to manufacture a product like a tractor, there's probably a damn good reason for them to want to redesign from scratch anyway
[14:55:40] <ssi> plus there's an inherent cost in having to adhere to that license
[14:55:54] <jarray52> ssi: gcode is portable if machine specific instructions aren't used.
[14:56:01] <ssi> it's not like hobbyists could be like "oh look, tractor code... let me feed that into my CNC machine and have a tractor"
[14:56:46] <jarray52> ssi: Hobbyists can't by themselves, but the barrier to entry for new companies is much lower.
[14:57:02] <ssi> and I'd love to know how you go about making gcode that does anything useful without at least some machine specific stuff in it
[14:57:08] <jarray52> ssi: group of hobbyists=new company
[14:57:26] <ssi> gcode mostly doesn't have the abstraction concepts that traditional software does that allows you to abstract away the machine
[14:58:26] <jarray52> ssi: gcode for specific controllers such as linuxcnc could be used.
[14:58:52] <ssi> ok I give up
[14:58:54] <ssi> have at it, tiger
[15:00:13] <jarray52> ssi: There isn't good cad to cam for linux, but once it exists, that abstraction problem would be handled.
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[15:04:04] <alex4nder> hey
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[15:20:10] <ssi> bored!
[15:20:29] <alex4nder> there's so much code to write
[15:20:31] <alex4nder> how can you be bored
[15:20:39] <ssi> what code should I be writing?
[15:20:40] <archivist> hehe, you want to be home playing
[15:20:42] <ssi> yes I do
[15:21:00] <ssi> and I'm tired becouse I haven't been sleeping more than 5hr a night
[15:21:05] <ssi> because of this damn hardinge :)
[15:21:23] <alex4nder> ssi: a CAM suite would be a good start
[15:21:25] <alex4nder> one that doesn't suck
[15:22:04] <ssi> alex4nder: I'm right there with ya man
[15:22:14] <ssi> if I can figure out how to start eating that particular elephant, I will
[15:22:25] <archivist> thinking of cam methinks PCW should cross post as it can take ages to join that list
[15:22:31] <ssi> if one of you would step up to the plate and say "heck yeah, I have cocoa experience" we can get started on it!
[15:23:33] <alex4nder> I have cocoa experience, but I wouldn't write a CAM tool in it.
[15:23:49] <ssi> why not
[15:23:50] <alex4nder> but that's a small part of the problem I think
[15:24:46] <alex4nder> just because the machines I use with my mill aren't Cocoa-enabled, and I'm not to keen on GNUstep
[15:25:12] <ssi> does everyone run cam on their machine control computers?
[15:25:16] <ssi> I don't understand that at all
[15:25:27] <ssi> I want to do my cam work on my desktop, in a comfy chair
[15:25:38] <ssi> not standing next to a machine, oily and covered in chips, sweating my ass off
[15:25:52] <archivist> comfy chair is next to cnc!
[15:25:52] <alex4nder> I want to do both.
[15:26:51] <ssi> all I want is a reasonable little cam tool that will help me do lathe profiling better
[15:26:53] <archivist> I dont want to have to keep swapping which pc does what job, they should all work the same
[15:27:07] <ssi> that's got a native UI instead of some ugly motif piece of shit
[15:29:05] <alex4nder> if I was feeling really crazy, I'd write a CAM webapp.
[15:29:40] <ssi> that would certainly be crazy
[15:29:41] <frysteev_> alex4nder: EMC2 webapp!
[15:29:54] <ssi> alex4nder: so you want cross platform
[15:30:01] <alex4nder> ssi: yah, I think so
[15:30:02] <ssi> so like... pycam
[15:30:08] <ssi> or a java app :P
[15:30:08] <alex4nder> nope.
[15:30:16] <ssi> or *shudder* Adobe AIR
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[15:30:38] <archivist> I did a simple gear milling webapp....went to hand coding easier
[15:30:53] <alex4nder> ssi: or you know, release multiple platforms from one codebase like most large modern software projects.
[15:31:49] <frysteev_> cam iphone app? :P
[15:31:53] <awallin> webGL is nice but requires a fast machine and GPU
[15:32:16] <ssi> alex4nder: sounds thrilling. When can we expect the alpha release?
[15:32:22] <alex4nder> ssi: once you write it.
[15:32:25] <alex4nder> ;)
[15:32:33] <ssi> you won't like it if I write it
[15:32:44] <ssi> if you're gonna be bullheaded about the technology, you drive it, and I'll contribute
[15:33:04] <alex4nder> haha being cross platform isn't bullheaded, but sure
[15:33:16] <alex4nder> I don't really care about Windows, but someone else might.
[15:33:22] <ssi> I gave up caring about cross platform, because there aren't many good ways to do it
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[15:33:32] <ssi> windows has plenty of cam already
[15:33:36] <ssi> linux has a few
[15:33:37] <frysteev_> web app for emc, i will ocontribute beer
[15:33:38] <ssi> osx has zero
[15:35:17] * Loetmichel has a 7" android table that i want to use as a MPG fpr the CNC sometime
[15:35:22] <Loetmichel> tablet
[15:36:05] <Loetmichel> but now i have MUCH to less time to make it watertight, let alone to make the MPG-gui
[15:36:32] <ssi> alex4nder: so at least suggest some technologies so I can bitch about them
[15:36:44] <frysteev_> Loetmichel: same here
[15:36:59] <alex4nder> ssi: no way, when I get some code started, then the bitching can start.
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[15:44:54] <pgf> can someone remind me how to install a version of emc to run in simulator mode? i know i've done so, but it was years ago. can't remember if i built myself, or installed a package, or... what.
[15:45:35] <ssi> alex4nder: I'm serious... I'm discussing with a coworker what possible UI tech exists for the cross platformedness that you so desire, and we can't come up with anything reasonable
[15:46:07] <alex4nder> ssi: well it depends on where you abstract your UI, and what toolkit you use.
[15:46:33] <ssi> yeah, that's what I'm asking!
[15:46:46] <ssi> I'm not a UI developer, so maybe something amazing exists and I'm just not aware of it
[15:47:12] <ssi> for my dayjob I do mostly backend enterprise java, but I wouldn't dare suggest it be written in swing
[15:47:14] <skunkworks> pgf: in here?
[15:47:16] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Installing_LinuxCNC
[15:47:28] <ssi> the various flavors of TK all blow
[15:47:31] <alex4nder> ssi: well if it were just me doing the development, I'd use Qt and do a build for each platform. If I had more developers, I'd do a native UI for each and do OpenGL for graphics, and just use POSIX APIs wherever possible for interacting with the OS.
[15:47:33] <ssi> as does QT
[15:48:13] <alex4nder> Qt is what you make of it.. if you don't tweak for each platform, it can be really lame.
[15:48:45] <ssi> ok so assume we would do the latter
[15:48:49] <ssi> that's a reasonable choice
[15:49:06] <ssi> can have a lib to handle backend/math work, and native UIs for each os
[15:49:13] <alex4nder> yup
[15:49:29] <ssi> still leads me back around to cocoa :)
[15:49:59] <alex4nder> if you write an app with the expectation it's just "cocoa" you start down a path that is painful to move away from.
[15:50:12] <alex4nder> that's really my point.
[15:50:19] <ssi> don't mind me, I'm the freakin king of abstraction
[15:50:27] <alex4nder> like, port iTunes to Linux.
[15:50:35] <alex4nder> oh wait.
[15:50:42] <alex4nder> ;)
[15:50:50] <pgf> skunkworks: thanks -- yes, that has the pointers i guess i need.
[15:51:09] <ssi> thing is, most of the work is going to be in the UI
[15:51:25] <alex4nder> haha no
[15:51:49] <alex4nder> well, maybe you've got all the math figured out
[15:51:53] <ssi> MAYBE I DO
[15:51:54] <alex4nder> and if that's the case, let's do this.
[15:51:56] <ssi> maybe somebody does
[15:52:14] <alex4nder> I've been thinking a lot about the math.. the UI to me seems trivial
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[15:52:37] <alex4nder> (obviously doing a good UI takes work, but it's not something that I can't already 'see')
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[15:53:19] <ssi> well you're one up on me then
[15:53:22] <ssi> I can't "see" UIs
[15:53:30] <ssi> I have never been able to design frontend stuff
[15:53:53] <ssi> I certainly wish I could; I just can't :(
[15:54:02] <cpresser> doing a frontend is easy. but doing a good usable frontend is hard work^^
[15:54:02] <alex4nder> what field do you work in?
[15:54:27] <ssi> these days mostly enterprise integration
[15:54:37] <alex4nder> werd.
[15:55:02] <ssi> transforming and moving massive amounts of data from A to B :)
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[16:27:40] <vin321> im kinda stuck got me some new drivers there working but slow its probably a timing thing but i cant get my head around it the manual says its max frequancy is 600khz
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[16:28:47] <tom3p> archivist, gui4hal progress http://videobin.org/+5lu/62q.html
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[16:53:22] <joe9> anyone using linuxcnc on any other distro other than ubuntu/debian?
[16:53:36] <joe9> such as arch or gentoo or slackware ?
[16:53:43] <jdhnc> you can, but why.
[16:54:17] <joe9> jdhnc: i use crux (an arch like distro) on my pc's. just wanted to stick with it.
[16:54:59] <frysteev_> im using win98
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[16:55:40] <cradek> joe9: it's pretty easy to build in simulator mode on any linux platform
[16:56:06] <joe9> i am checking the docs http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?EMC_With_Custom_Kernel and the instructions talk about building a custom kernel, but, nothing about what options I would need to enable.
[16:56:15] <cradek> joe9: and you could build rtai (against a kernel.org standard kernel) with only the usual trouble
[16:56:32] <joe9> cradek: yes, that is what I want to do.
[16:56:46] <cradek> go for the rtai docs then, not ours
[16:56:54] <cradek> building linuxcnc is the least of your worries
[16:57:07] <alex4nder> yah
[16:57:12] <joe9> cradek: thanks, that is what I needed. I was thinking rtai == linuxcnc.
[16:57:20] <cradek> nope, totally separate projects
[16:57:31] <alex4nder> joe9: you got your mill running yet?
[16:58:06] <joe9> getting there. got my computer running now. next step "linuxcnc on it" -> assemble the mill -> run it.
[16:58:34] <cradek> so you're at step -1!
[16:58:41] <alex4nder> yup
[16:58:49] <cradek> (you'd be at step 0 if you planned on using ubuntu)
[16:59:35] <joe9> i have the livecd. I tried it.
[17:00:19] <alex4nder> did it work
[17:00:19] <alex4nder> ?
[17:00:24] * JT-Shop would be dead in the water without the LiveCD!
[17:00:39] <joe9> yes.
[17:00:59] <joe9> the latency test was pretty good.
[17:01:14] * djdelorie *was* dead in the water *with* the liveCD. Had to find a computer old enough to have a parallel port, but new enough to have a working CDROM drive...
[17:02:15] <frysteev_> djdelorie: i have a stand of spares for just that reason
[17:02:16] <JT-Shop> d525 is new and has a parallel port and a working CD drive
[17:02:29] <djdelorie> so did I. Took a while to find a "spare" that met all the criteria
[17:03:40] -!- Tom_itx [Tom_itx!~Tl@unaffiliated/toml/x-013812] has joined #linuxcnc
[17:03:43] <cradek> it's finally the case that all my (recycled) hardware seems to be able to install from usb stick. yay for that, I hate cdrom drives, may they become as rare as floppies.
[17:04:04] <djdelorie> the pc I ended up with has USB but won't boot off it
[17:04:52] <djdelorie> dual 800 MHz pentium, 512M ram
[17:05:13] <djdelorie> I might dig for a better one later, but that was in the pile near the cnc machine :-)
[17:05:26] <cradek> P3 I assume?
[17:05:35] <cradek> (no such thing as a 800 MHz pentium)
[17:05:46] <djdelorie> Pentium something
[17:05:51] <jdhnc> starts with a P
[17:05:52] <djdelorie> probably P3
[17:06:31] <djdelorie> back when "dual core" meant "dual chips" :-)
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[17:07:04] <jdhnc> does d525 have any real performance advantage over the single core one?
[17:07:21] <alex4nder> has anyone tested their latencies using PREEMPT_RT kernels with a userspace thread?
[17:07:26] <JT-Shop> what single core one?
[17:09:03] <ssi> JT-Shop: so I got a big batch of chucker tooling off ebay, and in it is a CC14 with a missing wedge
[17:09:04] <jdhnc> n270 or whatever the single core atom predecessor was
[17:09:09] <ssi> JT-Shop: any idea if it's possible to get replacement wedges?
[17:10:25] <jdhnc> atom D410 maybe?
[17:10:31] <ssi> ahahaha
[17:10:59] <ssi> last night on facebook i posted this: My drill is dead and fresh batteries are all the way downstairs :( #firstworldproblems
[17:11:10] <ssi> and my next door neighbor made and posted this:
[17:11:10] <ssi> http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/295482_10100354361009717_22603082_43933003_875510707_n.jpg
[17:11:36] <pcw__> djdelorie: use a pci parallel port (then its not so bad if you have a electrical accident of some kind with the port)
[17:12:04] <pcw__> also widens you motherboard choice
[17:12:32] <djdelorie> pcw__: I've yet to find a definitive list of "these work" but many reports of "...but this one doesn't"
[17:12:40] <frysteev_> pcw__: at that point why not just a pci mesa controller then :P
[17:13:06] <djdelorie> and, in my case, the electronics connected to the parallel port are more likely to take the hit than the pc itself
[17:13:16] <pcw__> I dont know of any that doesn;t for just step generation/ limit switch IO
[17:15:29] <pcw__> standard $9.00 NetMOS boards are fine for standard parallel port use
[17:15:30] <JT-Shop> ssi: you might try hardinge or just copy one
[17:16:09] <ssi> JT-Shop: I haven't actually seen one in person yet... is it just a wedge? no other features?
[17:16:36] <JT-Shop> it has threads and a little feature to capture it
[17:16:50] <JT-Shop> or maybe not threaded
[17:17:00] <ssi> maybe I oughta try to buy a complete one so I have one to copy
[17:17:05] <ssi> but other than that, I'm pretty well set for tooling
[17:17:16] <ssi> got a handful of the non-wedge-type extensions, a bunch of boring bar holders
[17:17:19] <ssi> even a hardinge knurl
[17:17:33] <JT-Shop> no, it has a notch for the bolt head, no threads
[17:17:42] <JT-Shop> cool
[17:17:49] <ssi> and one bar holder has a drill bushing and center drill in it
[17:17:52] * JT-Shop goes to break something...
[17:17:58] <ssi> and another has a bushing and what I guess is a chamfer drill
[17:18:37] * ssi wants this lathe running so freakin bad
[17:20:40] * skunkworks needs to get atleast 1 cnc lathe running
[17:20:51] <ssi> I'll trade ya a cnc lathe for a cnc mill
[17:20:58] <skunkworks> heh
[17:21:11] <Jymmm> ssi: (shipping not included)
[17:21:16] <ssi> working on lathe #2, but still no mill :(
[17:21:34] <djdelorie> working on mill #1, but I have three lathes... (none CNC though)
[17:21:38] <ssi> Jymmm: I HAVE A FORKLIFT NOW I CAN SHIP ANYTHINGGGGGG
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[17:24:13] <Jymmm> ssi: This is you isn't it!!!! http://i43.tinypic.com/28jck9e.jpg
[17:24:19] <jdhnc> I've given up on making my own conversion parts and am trying to convince cncfusion to sell me a G0704 kit
[17:25:22] <ssi> Jymmm: OMG who gave you that picture?!?
[17:25:38] <ssi> jdhnc: I'd love if someone would make screw/motor mounts
[17:25:49] <ssi> jdhnc: I have screws and bearings already, I'm just far too lazy to machine the mounts
[17:25:50] <Jymmm> ssi: You're insurance claims adjuster
[17:25:55] <ssi> crap
[17:26:01] <Jymmm> err Your
[17:26:44] <jdhnc> ssi: in theory, they will have a ballscrew/mount kit for $429
[17:26:57] <ssi> not terrible
[17:27:04] <ssi> I need to just get off my ass and make mounts
[17:27:17] <jdhnc> there is a guy on ebay selling motor mounts and ballnut mounts
[17:27:24] <ssi> got a link?
[17:27:26] <jdhnc> no screws though
[17:27:29] <ssi> oh I've seen that guys stuff
[17:27:32] <ssi> it's like a billion dollars isnt it
[17:27:36] <ssi> like $500 for a set?
[17:27:58] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Grizzly-G0704-Mill-CNC-Conversion-Kit-X-Y-Z-Mounts-/280842040891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41637d763b#ht_943wt_1378
[17:28:01] <ssi> that stuff
[17:28:05] <ssi> yea he's awful proud of it
[17:28:21] <ssi> the parts look really nice, but dammit
[17:28:49] <jdhnc> tehy look like there is a lot of work in them.
[17:30:10] <syyl> he should get finer material for his sandblasting setup...
[17:30:12] <ssi> I might try to do servos on my g0704
[17:30:16] <syyl> looks pretty rough
[17:30:20] <ssi> if they work out well, I may re-do my g0602 with servos
[17:30:21] <jdhnc> I woudl if I had servos
[17:30:39] <ssi> yea I dunno
[17:30:48] <jdhnc> I have a spare 34 motor that should work for Z and some big 23's for x&y
[17:30:50] <frysteev_> id like a kit like that for my small lathe
[17:30:51] <ssi> I have a pair of nema23 steppers that'd work well on the x/y
[17:30:56] <ssi> but I don't have a Z motor
[17:31:08] <jdhnc> $100
[17:31:38] <ssi> I really don't know much about servos
[17:31:45] <ssi> what kind of servo would you use for a machine that size?
[17:31:49] <frysteev_> ssi: finish your current project first :P
[17:31:50] <jdhnc> no clue
[17:31:57] <ssi> something like a KL23-120-36 ?
[17:32:00] <ssi> frysteev_: oh I will
[17:32:03] <ssi> 704 is next after the hnc
[17:32:08] <ssi> and then after that, the plasma table
[17:32:21] <ssi> oh and the 602 needs a new stand and better limit switches
[17:32:25] <jdhnc> ssi: that motor + encoder + drive + PS
[17:32:50] <frysteev_> robot arm is next after the laser, (that and wating for your surplus boards:P
[17:33:18] <skunkworks> I don't know when the puma arm is going to get worked on.... Another project...
[17:38:47] <frysteev_> well when im done with the robot arm, the old control cabinet is going to house my small cnc router
[17:43:06] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/cincinnatimi/cinclathe.JPG
[17:43:54] <ssi> omg that looks fun
[17:44:06] <ssi> I really enjoy slantbeds
[17:44:15] <skunkworks> going to try to run hydralic servos initally....
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[17:50:18] <pgf> djdelorie: i used to have a floppy boot disk that would boot USB sticks. handy for machines like yours that pre-date USB boot.
[17:53:15] <djdelorie> I would have to find a floppy drive that still worked...
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[17:54:31] <pgf> there is that.
[17:55:40] <pgf> i'm currently running my mill from live-USB. there seems to be no easy way to create such a thing without first booting live-CD, but i have a USB cdrom that serves that purpose.
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[17:56:39] <djdelorie> my box happened to have two disks in it, so I configured them as raid. WAY overkill, but they weren't doing anything else... although the linuxCNC livecd didn't include raid support!
[17:56:52] <pgf> (what i don't know yet is whether the unionfs features on the live-USB allow upgrades. i'm trying to avoid a disk.)
[17:56:54] <pgf> :-)
[17:57:47] <pgf> similar: i installed a wireless card before realizing i couldn't connect to WPA2 from the linuxcnc livecd.
[17:58:11] <djdelorie> and you guys made me run my first ethernet cable to the wood shop ;-)
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[17:59:07] <pgf> at least you got something out of the relationship
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[18:02:36] <pcw__> wiresless cards may not be a good idea latency wise anyway
[18:02:38] <pcw__> (the less weird crap in the kernel the better)
[18:03:13] <alex4nder> yah, and the wifi cards are all packet quicksand.
[18:04:15] <pcw__> yep an Ethernet connected access point keeps the crap where it belongs
[18:05:24] <ssi> I use airport express as little wireless access points... they give me a wired ethernet port anywhere in the house that I have power. Pretty handy.
[18:05:33] <pgf> interesting point(s). maybe i'll run ethernet to that side of the shop after all.
[18:05:34] <ssi> plus I can pipe music to them :)
[18:10:10] <frysteev_> or gcode over audio
[18:10:42] <alex4nder> that's what my mill is for
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[18:14:23] <IchGuckLive> hi all around the world
[18:14:27] <ssi> HI
[18:14:33] <IchGuckLive> B)
[18:22:49] <ssi> pcw__: are there any plans to make a sserial resolver card?
[18:23:22] <ssi> I'm looking at all the fancy sserial stuff and I can picture a system where the only thing on the host is an AIO card with an 8 port sserial interface with cat6 cables sprouting off it :)
[18:24:11] <ssi> a '69, '70, and '71 plus an sserial resolver/pwm card would be a hell of a powerful package
[18:25:22] <ssi> oh and don't forget the '73 in the pendant :D
[18:26:33] <pcw__> Possibly, we have quite a few SSERIAL remotes planned this year
[18:28:39] <pcw__> another possibility is a 5I25 daughtercard like he 7I77 but with perhaps 3 resolver and 3 encoder inputs
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[18:34:04] <frysteev_> pcw__: TEASE
[18:34:34] <frysteev_> to much snazzy stuff that is out of my budget
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[18:37:54] <frysteev_> pcw__: is there a serial pci host card for the pc?
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[18:41:27] <IchGuckLive> frysteev_: buget is always a miss
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[21:27:14] <SolarNRG> Hi guys, I'm still trying to build a CNC machine, but I don't have enough money to buy all the parts in one go. I have 3 big stepper motors, do you think it would be a good idea to buy a control system for them next?
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[21:28:28] <ssi> you're better off building the machine next
[21:28:42] <ssi> being able to control steppers that are sitting on your desk is not all that useful
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[21:29:59] <SolarNRG> I'm getting an aluminium forge on Thursday
[21:30:04] <SolarNRG> I can manually make molds
[21:30:11] <SolarNRG> And pour molten aluminium into it
[21:30:16] <SolarNRG> What parts do you think I should make first?
[21:30:19] <djdelorie> OTOH you could build a cheap machine with Home Depot parts, just to get "something" working...
[21:30:26] <SolarNRG> My intuition says make a block as a motor mount
[21:30:44] <SolarNRG> We don't have Home Depot in Scotland
[21:30:52] <ssi> do you have manual machines?
[21:30:56] <djdelorie> Sorry, Home McDepot then
[21:31:05] * ssi ^5's djdelorie
[21:31:06] <SolarNRG> LOL I wish we had that
[21:31:17] <SolarNRG> We have Mcdonalds, but I don't think they sell that
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[21:31:31] <SolarNRG> I want a machien that can mill steel.
[21:31:40] <ssi> buy one
[21:31:44] <SolarNRG> And I want to do it right first time and I hope you guys can advise me
[21:31:56] <djdelorie> basically, use cheap wood, threaded rod, angle iron, etc to cobble up *something* for those steppers to live in while you save for the "real" machine
[21:31:58] <ssi> you're not going to build a CNC mill capable of cutting steel in your backyard with no tools
[21:32:21] <ssi> just do what the rest of us do and buy a BF20 clone and convert it
[21:32:23] <SolarNRG> I can melt bean cans into ingots
[21:32:26] <ssi> use it manually to make parts for itself
[21:32:26] <SolarNRG> I have a dremel trio
[21:32:29] <SolarNRG> I have a jig saw
[21:32:33] <SolarNRG> I have a hack saw
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[21:32:35] <SolarNRG> A diamond file
[21:32:45] <ssi> those aren't machine tools
[21:32:45] <SolarNRG> A windscreen wiper motor I use as a lathe
[21:32:49] <raynerd> anyone in here use Vcarve?
[21:33:03] <djdelorie> I have a full wood shop, full electronics lab, and decades of experience, and even I'm building a "learner" machine first.
[21:33:11] <SolarNRG> I even have a Dremel 8000 rotory tool with a mount!
[21:33:23] * ssi writes SolarNRG off as a troll
[21:33:31] <SolarNRG> Hey, I'm not trolling
[21:33:39] <SolarNRG> I am actually trying to build something good
[21:33:44] <SolarNRG> I was just mentioning what I have
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[21:33:51] <raynerd> vcarve...anyone?
[21:34:10] <djdelorie> starting with what you have, you'll either be spending lots of money, or building some interim machines
[21:34:17] <Loetmichel> *knack* That was the next to last 2mm one flute TC bit... maybe F960 was a BIT much for 1mm aluminium ;-)
[21:34:25] <raynerd> What does everyone in here use to generate their g-code?
[21:34:36] <ssi> raynerd: I mostly write mine by hand, sadly :(
[21:34:48] <Loetmichel> <- CoralDraw and BoCNC,,, and a bit gray matter ;-)
[21:35:03] <raynerd> hummm ok
[21:35:30] <SolarNRG> OK, say I just sell on my parts and buy a professional CNC machine, what desktop professional machine do you recommend I save up for that I can build model turbines with?
[21:35:38] <raynerd> I just want to test my cnc machine :-( I just want to draw a capital letter "E" and cut all the way through my 6mm mdf sheet.
[21:35:53] <raynerd> so I end up with a perhaps leave a couple of tabs.
[21:36:18] <djdelorie> raynerd: for something that simple, writing it by hand is probably the easiest way
[21:36:23] <raynerd> sorry... so I end up with a captial E pop out. perhaps leave a couple of tabs.
[21:37:06] <raynerd> bugger... I don`t even know a single command line! I`ve just spent the last month building my machine and finally tonight I want to use it...lol and so the learning continues.
[21:37:37] <raynerd> I actually want to do E L L A
[21:39:25] <archivist> writing by hand is a good learning experience :)
[21:39:44] <SolarNRG> OK fine, I guess you guys are pros and have no time for amateurs. Thanks for your help
[21:39:53] <raynerd> I`m no pro
[21:39:57] <raynerd> What is your problem?
[21:40:58] <raynerd> SolarNRG ?
[21:41:02] <SolarNRG> My problem is I want a CNC machine and I'm upset that I've bought the wrong router and mount
[21:41:20] <SolarNRG> And I've got 3 stepper motors I can't even get to turn around because my arduino and ULN transistors aren't powerful enough
[21:41:22] <ssi> Its just not as easy as you're trying to make it
[21:41:29] <ssi> building machines is freaking hard, and it's not cheay
[21:41:30] <ssi> cheap
[21:41:43] <frysteev_> nope
[21:41:48] <ssi> the impression that you're giving us is that you want to do all this on practically zero money, and it's not practical
[21:41:53] <SolarNRG> Do you guys have a CNC machiene that can mill parts for me for a reasonable prive?
[21:41:54] <archivist> SolarNRG, starting with what you have helps you learn the pitfalls
[21:42:27] <archivist> hand make parts, then get the machine to make better parts
[21:43:27] <raynerd> SolarNRG - I can`t help as I don`t understand your initial question... you want a cnc machine but have purchased the wrong router.... ????
[21:43:29] <frysteev_> reasonable prive? that sounds dirty
[21:43:30] <archivist> I used a dremel as a temporary lathe motor to fix a drill a week ago
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[21:43:48] <SolarNRG> Yeah, I got a Dremel 8000
[21:43:51] <raynerd> why are you even worrying about router and mount...surely moving the 3 axis are the first steps.
[21:43:52] <SolarNRG> With a mount
[21:44:08] <syyl> wait
[21:44:12] <syyl> turbine parts?
[21:44:18] <syyl> dremel?
[21:44:29] <SolarNRG> I know, its not powerful enough
[21:44:32] <SolarNRG> It was a stupid buy
[21:44:34] <raynerd> ohhh...is this a troll ??
[21:44:37] <SolarNRG> I should have got a Kress at least
[21:44:41] <SolarNRG> Or maybe a Bosch
[21:44:49] <syyl> i dont want to dissappoint you...
[21:44:59] <SolarNRG> I was at a convention and the Dremel stand convinced me this was what I wanted
[21:45:09] <raynerd> is someone with the "power" going to kick him
[21:45:13] <SolarNRG> And it was a hundred quid including the stand and a free glue gun, how could I resist?
[21:45:26] <archivist> you will use the dremel just not as a spindle
[21:45:45] <syyl> but, for a turbine, you need to machine stainless steel, inconell and stuff like that, if i remember correctly?
[21:45:55] <ssi> if he's a troll then he's a damned tenacious one :P
[21:45:57] <SolarNRG> Sure
[21:46:04] <raynerd> lol
[21:46:10] <archivist> best to get a cast turbine blade
[21:46:13] <raynerd> SolarNRG - where you from?
[21:46:18] <SolarNRG> Glasgow, Scotland
[21:46:23] <syyl> you will need a "bit" more grunt
[21:46:26] <ssi> syyl: not just that, but to precisions much higher than most homemade machines will do
[21:46:28] <archivist> the frozen north
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[21:46:43] <raynerd> SolarNRG - where is that near?
[21:47:12] <syyl> yeah, thats the first requirement, ssi ;)
[21:47:19] <archivist> ! er raynerd you dont know Glasgow?
[21:47:26] <syyl> there are not to much hobby routers that can do that...
[21:47:40] <SolarNRG> I know, I want to build a tough machine
[21:47:53] <raynerd> Of course...I`m from Manchester
[21:47:59] <SolarNRG> I figured if my router head was diamond tipped and I took my time
[21:48:03] <SolarNRG> It would work
[21:48:04] <raynerd> he must be drunk because he is making no sense.
[21:48:05] <SolarNRG> But slow
[21:48:10] <archivist> I watched a turbine at the midland model engineer ex, they use cast turbine blades
[21:48:29] <SolarNRG> Do they use ceramics as molds for the castings?
[21:48:30] <syyl> most hobby turbines use solid cast turbine wheels
[21:48:34] <Loetmichel> *grrr. tha last 2mm bit in the machine... its time to order replacements...
[21:48:35] <raynerd> did you go to the Northern show last week?
[21:48:35] <SolarNRG> How do they get around the shrinkage?
[21:48:45] <syyl> or wheels from superchargers...
[21:49:08] <archivist> exhaust turbo blades as well
[21:49:30] <syyl> add enough material to compensate shrinkage? ;)
[21:49:47] <syyl> but casting is a complete topic for its own
[21:49:54] <archivist> the balancing is the real art though
[21:49:58] <raynerd> anyone got any good links for learning g-code?
[21:50:13] <archivist> raynerd, I used the emc manual
[21:50:33] <raynerd> ahh.. fair play!
[21:50:36] <archivist> but I was already used to programming
[21:50:38] <ssi> raynerd: it's intimidating at first, but you'll get it
[21:50:59] <ssi> raynerd: instead of trying to cut lettering, play around with just cutting squares. Simple rectilinear movements, learn about feedrates and such
[21:51:02] <SolarNRG> Aye, but I'm trying to make a custom made direct drive steam turbine that has the alternator inside the high pressure valve with coolant pipes extruding into the alternator so that there are no gearing or belt losses AND I'm trying to engineer the turbine so it is permanent magnetically suspended to reduce friction losses and the only point the turbine touches is the cooled alternator via a labyrinth seal
[21:51:03] <raynerd> ohh bollocks to this,..I`m going to have to find something as I am itching to test my machine!!!
[21:51:18] <SolarNRG> I doubt I could make that by hand
[21:51:29] <SolarNRG> But I have CAD and Rhino 3D experience
[21:51:54] <SolarNRG> I also have experience with little stepper motors, but last time I spoke to the pros, they advised me against a transistor based controller as it would be very very slow
[21:51:55] * syyl scratches his head
[21:51:58] <syyl> what? :D
[21:52:28] <DJ9DJ> lol
[21:52:45] <archivist> SolarNRG, use bipolar motors and get ready made drivers, not the cheap ebay ones
[21:52:49] <SolarNRG> Here's a link to a poorly constructed prototype with magnets and wood by yours truly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J68eplT9v2Y
[21:53:03] <SolarNRG> You see how only the thread is touching anything
[21:53:11] <SolarNRG> The magnets suspend it in mid air?
[21:54:07] <SolarNRG> Well the end product has to be stainless steel, very very precise, because if it is off centre it'll lose loads of efficiency
[21:54:14] <SolarNRG> I can not make this by hand.
[21:54:18] <SolarNRG> I've already got a CAD model
[21:54:36] <SolarNRG> Even if I build a machine that takes 3 days to make one part, I'm happy
[21:54:44] <SolarNRG> but it must make the part ACCURATELY
[21:55:02] <SolarNRG> I just want to make working prototypes for now so companies start takign me seriously
[21:55:12] <syyl> go for a industrial cnc
[21:55:20] <alex4nder> SolarNRG: you can find machinists that will build your parts for you for reasonable prices
[21:55:34] <syyl> but you will need also the knowledge to run a machine tool
[21:55:42] <alex4nder> or that
[21:55:46] <syyl> milling is not learned in 10 minutes
[21:55:53] <syyl> or machining in general
[21:56:00] <alex4nder> yah
[21:56:07] <syyl> its a trade that has to be learned over several years..
[21:56:13] <SolarNRG> They don't even teach this at Uni
[21:56:13] <Thetawaves> patience and tools
[21:56:21] <alex4nder> with associated tools that are collected over the same time frame
[21:56:25] <syyl> correction
[21:56:32] <syyl> you learn machining until retirement :D
[21:56:40] <alex4nder> hah
[21:56:53] <archivist> then you start forgetting :)
[21:57:13] <syyl> at uni?
[21:57:18] <syyl> you learn it in the real world :D
[21:57:32] <SolarNRG> That's what I learned, school doesnt really teach you much at all
[21:57:45] <SolarNRG> Just teaches you how to fill in tax returns
[21:58:11] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[21:59:14] <archivist> SolarNRG, why mess with magnetic bearings for a steam turbine as the percentage gain wont be much if any
[21:59:49] <SolarNRG> Because any bearing that requires lubrication will wear down if not lubricated
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[22:00:12] <SolarNRG> I'm hoping to approach NASA about a parabolic solar system that runs for a very long time
[22:00:23] <SolarNRG> I made a dish follow the sun
[22:00:31] <SolarNRG> I made a mirrored sky dish boil water
[22:00:48] <SolarNRG> I've been emailing back and forth with a NASA employee named John Fornaro
[22:00:56] <SolarNRG> He belives I'm on the right track
[22:01:04] <SolarNRG> He says photovoltaics degrade under UV
[22:01:19] <SolarNRG> If I can make a working prototype I may get a multi-million dollar contract
[22:01:44] <ssi> quick, let's everyone do this kid's work for him for free so he can make millions
[22:01:47] <SolarNRG> Right now I've got a dish that keeps bumping my lamp over, its got a mind of its own
[22:02:10] <syyl> maybe we should steal his idea
[22:02:13] <syyl> ;)
[22:02:15] <ssi> :D
[22:02:41] <syyl> ah
[22:02:43] <SolarNRG> You can, in fact you're probably far more developed and prepared to do it than I am
[22:02:43] <archivist> the condenser is the problem, lack of heatsink in space
[22:02:57] <syyl> iam just a machinist :D
[22:03:05] <syyl> no engineer
[22:03:59] <SolarNRG> The condenser isn't a problem if there are copper hairs all over a bundle of pipes that goes back to the cold water tank
[22:04:21] <SolarNRG> The heat will radiate as thre is no convection nor conduction
[22:04:42] <Loetmichel> SolarNRG: what else is new?
[22:05:00] <SolarNRG> Hiya Loetmichel
[22:05:04] <Loetmichel> parabolic dishes for solar energy are REALLY old
[22:05:07] <raynerd> guys, what is a .tap file?
[22:05:42] <syyl> can be a gcode file
[22:05:46] <raynerd> :D
[22:05:47] <syyl> for some controllers
[22:05:58] <syyl> open with a texteditor and look ;)
[22:07:34] <raynerd> WOOT :P
[22:07:40] <raynerd> nice one, cheers.
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[22:07:50] <syyl> no problem, sir ;)
[22:08:15] <SolarNRG> It is an old concept yes, but the computer control to be able to follow the sun is only as old as me
[22:09:25] <ssi> surely it's been around longer than twelve years :P
[22:09:48] <SolarNRG> Does my brain damage really seem that bad?
[22:11:02] <SolarNRG> This is what I've made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAWLjqMiulo
[22:11:30] <syyl> its the inverted disco ball from hell!
[22:11:46] <SolarNRG> The focal point gets quite hot!
[22:11:55] <syyl> yeah
[22:11:58] <syyl> i belive you
[22:12:09] <syyl> its a proofen concept ;)
[22:12:32] <SolarNRG> And here's proof of the aruino controlled, stepper motor driven, light dependent resistor guided system that enables it to follow the sun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CReRQb_UZj0
[22:15:53] <Jymmm> Since when is there visible Sun in the UK ?
[22:16:05] <SolarNRG> There isn't, hence the lamp
[22:16:12] <SolarNRG> But this isn't to be used in the UK
[22:16:16] <SolarNRG> This is to go on the moon
[22:16:21] <SolarNRG> At the south pole
[22:16:48] <SolarNRG> And the robots dig up moonrock with ice in it, it goes into this steel, sealable hopper that then gets moved to the focal point
[22:16:52] * archivist saw the sun today
[22:16:53] <syyl> the moon is already occupied
[22:16:53] <SolarNRG> And the ice steams off
[22:17:19] <SolarNRG> By who?
[22:17:19] <SolarNRG> Its been deserted since 72!
[22:17:19] <syyl> didnt you see a trailer of iron sky? ;)
[22:17:20] <Jymmm> On the moon? And it gets there how? Air Mail?
[22:17:23] <syyl> i think ups delivers to the moon
[22:17:25] <SolarNRG> Atlas V
[22:17:31] <Jymmm> ah
[22:17:41] <SolarNRG> Maybe a Delta IV heavy
[22:17:43] <Jymmm> and onthe south pole of the moon or earth?
[22:17:47] <SolarNRG> Possibly a russian Proton
[22:17:51] <SolarNRG> Moon
[22:17:59] <Jymmm> k
[22:17:59] <SolarNRG> And it has to go 180 degrees around
[22:18:16] <SolarNRG> Then double backs 359 the other way so the steam hoses don't stretch
[22:18:24] <SolarNRG> Because the sun is all around you there
[22:18:26] <SolarNRG> Never above
[22:18:38] <SolarNRG> And you robotically change two hoppers
[22:18:42] <SolarNRG> One is for processing
[22:18:46] <SolarNRG> One is for power generation
[22:18:47] <syyl> why no rotary joint?
[22:18:57] <SolarNRG> ??
[22:19:01] <syyl> winding/unwinding steam hoses seems to be a bit
[22:19:02] <syyl> uhm
[22:19:08] <syyl> rough
[22:19:29] <Jymmm> SolarNRG: as far as your "constant traking" when it's found the hot spot. Have it delay and seem if the hotspot has changed more than a certain percentage before looking for something "hotter"
[22:20:54] <SolarNRG> I learned critical damping when I was at UNI
[22:21:04] <SolarNRG> It helped me get around the knocking problem
[22:21:14] <SolarNRG> Sadly I smashed the thing to bits before I could video this :(
[22:21:28] <SolarNRG> The concept worked but wood was not very strong
[22:21:39] <SolarNRG> And machining metal by hand is very challenging
[22:21:41] <Jymmm> $hotspot=30; delay(60); If (hotspot < ($prev_hotspot - 5%)){find new hotspot();}
[22:22:02] <syyl> generations have done it by hand :)
[22:22:11] <syyl> chisel, saw, file, scraper...
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[22:22:37] <SolarNRG> I solved that by having a flag where if left light dependent resistor was less than 20 more than the right and vice versa the motors only ran at 1/10th speed
[22:22:49] <SolarNRG> Else they moved toward teh sun at top speed
[22:22:59] <Jymmm> why top speed?
[22:23:36] <SolarNRG> Because a geared down 5v 1 NM stepper motor with a 35mm pinion onto a 155mm secondary gear does 1 rotation ever 20 mins at top speed
[22:23:48] <syyl> uh
[22:24:12] <SolarNRG> That's easily fast enough to catch the sun!
[22:24:17] <SolarNRG> And energy efficent too
[22:24:25] <Jymmm> in the video it seemed to track very quickly, far faster than the sun would move
[22:24:40] <Jymmm> post initial setup that is
[22:24:42] <SolarNRG> Yeah with my old X axis I just glued the motor onto a broom handle
[22:24:47] <SolarNRG> The y axis had this setup
[22:25:02] <SolarNRG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88zYI2hgFuw
[22:25:11] <SolarNRG> This was my first and only videod y axis test
[22:25:23] <SolarNRG> I used a box of bolts as my counter-weight
[22:26:02] <Thetawaves> what a contraption
[22:27:06] <SolarNRG> Do you like it?
[22:27:20] <Thetawaves> what is moving in that video
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[22:27:33] <SolarNRG> The arm is moving down very very slowly
[22:27:44] <Thetawaves> i thought it was moving up!
[22:27:45] <Thetawaves> lol
[22:27:52] <SolarNRG> The counterbalance is moving up yes
[22:27:55] <SolarNRG> But the dish is moving down
[22:29:08] <SolarNRG> The arduino signals the pulses, the ULN2003 steps up the pulses to move powerful pulses from the 5v mains adapter
[22:29:21] <SolarNRG> The stepper motor is tapped onto a pinion gear that goes to a big gear
[22:29:46] <SolarNRG> Here's a vid of the guts of the gearbox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8vGB8JwtE
[22:30:36] <archivist> the steam engine I play with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgEQ-r0nU now with cnc made parts (2)
[22:31:19] <syyl> oh
[22:32:17] <SolarNRG> WOW
[22:32:40] <syyl> now i am realy envious, archivist
[22:32:45] <syyl> great machine
[22:33:07] <archivist> we were fixing the condenser pipe last night
[22:34:03] <SolarNRG> What was wrong with your condenser?
[22:34:06] <syyl> do you have a own machine shop there?
[22:34:52] <SolarNRG> corroded, clogged?
[22:35:22] <archivist> joint leaking
[22:35:41] <SolarNRG> Couldn't you have just welded solder around the leak with a blowtorch?
[22:36:01] <SolarNRG> actually
[22:36:02] <SolarNRG> that won't work
[22:36:04] <SolarNRG> its a joint
[22:36:07] <SolarNRG> it has to move, right?
[22:36:07] <archivist> syyl, no, we make parts wherever we can
[22:36:14] <syyl> ah ok
[22:36:23] <archivist> flange type joint
[22:37:05] <archivist> and with the sizes, sometimes parts cannot be taken off
[22:37:49] <syyl> do you do also onsite machining?
[22:38:01] <syyl> borewelding/repair and stuff like that?
[22:38:34] <archivist> we had a boiler maker come and do some onsite work
[22:39:01] <SolarNRG> Boiler makers work with inch thick plate steel
[22:39:13] <SolarNRG> or cast iron
[22:39:22] <archivist> our plates are thinner 5/8"
[22:39:37] * syyl takes out his calculator
[22:39:39] <Thetawaves> archivist, that is one of the coolest things
[22:39:55] <syyl> ~16mm
[22:39:56] <syyl> :o
[22:40:05] <syyl> better sheet metal ;)
[22:40:30] <archivist> we test at 60 psi blow off at 40 and run about 30
[22:40:56] <SolarNRG> I guess that's enough to drive a pump
[22:41:15] <SolarNRG> I was hoping to make a mini turbine run at about 450 PSI to drive an alternator the thousands of RPM it needs
[22:41:25] <Thetawaves> !
[22:42:16] <archivist> never mind the pressure what is T1 and T2
[22:45:23] <SolarNRG> Hmm, well in my proposed system I advise 6 or 7 parabolic dishes concentrating light onto 6 or 7 boilers respectively
[22:45:43] <SolarNRG> Each with thin bore, well insulated piping going to the turbine
[22:45:51] <SolarNRG> Running at about 1000 degrees+
[22:45:57] <SolarNRG> very high pressure
[22:46:10] <SolarNRG> Driving a stainless, cobalt nickel turbine blade
[22:46:20] <SolarNRG> That whizzes around at thousands of RPM
[22:46:35] <SolarNRG> The steam bypasses teh alternator and goes to the condenser
[22:46:43] <SolarNRG> which cools down and goes back to the tank
[22:47:12] <archivist> but as a person from Scotland why are you ignoring the stirling cycle
[22:47:49] <SolarNRG> The idea of using the heat within the condenser to further heat the steam and recycling the steam post flow into the start of the turbine?
[22:48:14] <SolarNRG> I thought about it
[22:48:30] <SolarNRG> But then the cooling of the alternator inside the turbine gets trickier
[22:48:46] <SolarNRG> especially if the stirling secondary tank encompasses the primary turbine
[22:49:06] <SolarNRG> The coolant pipes would need specialised insulation
[22:49:12] <SolarNRG> beyond my degree of material science
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[22:50:36] <SolarNRG> I looked into tesla turbines and I realised that a sterling cycle would not make it more efficient, it dramatically loses efficiency the more rpm there is due to friciton losses within the bearings themselves
[22:50:53] <SolarNRG> I think the bearings must be magnetic to maintain efficiency at high rpm
[22:51:18] <archivist> gas friction losses and heatsink
[22:51:48] <SolarNRG> any system is going to produce waste heat
[22:52:14] <SolarNRG> you can reduce gas fricion but not eliminate it as long as your turbine and pipes bend very gently
[22:52:20] <SolarNRG> and all surfaces are smooth
[22:52:39] <SolarNRG> 90 degree bends are recipies for eddie currents, loss of pressure
[22:53:33] <SolarNRG> I imagine the bit where the turbine shaft meets the alternator to be like a womans pair of spread legs hollowed out but made of smooth steel
[22:53:51] <SolarNRG> so the steam diverts instead of htis a brick wall
[22:54:28] <SolarNRG> Sadly all I can do is draw parts on CAD and crudely imitate them with bits of wood at present
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[22:54:56] <SolarNRG> I came to you guys in hope of making a machine that could accurately carve steel parts and make what I imagine to become a reality
[22:55:15] <SolarNRG> But it seems making a CNC machine is a lot harder than I first thought
[22:55:22] <SolarNRG> It isn't as easy as making a 3d printer
[22:55:27] <archivist> easiest is get an old cnc mill and retrofit
[22:55:34] <ssi> no, it's certainly not as easy
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[22:55:47] <ssi> cutting steel involves enormous forces
[22:55:48] <SolarNRG> Believe me I called up everyone in Glasgow from engravers to gas engineers
[22:55:56] <SolarNRG> They scrap and melt down their defunct machines
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[22:56:18] <SolarNRG> I even called up Aberdeen
[22:56:36] <archivist> I got my lathe from Inverness
[22:56:36] <ssi> SolarNRG: http://www.taysidemachinery.com/stocklist.asp#CC1
[22:56:46] <SolarNRG> I've rung up tayside
[22:56:54] <SolarNRG> they haven't had a CNC in 6 months
[22:57:22] <alex4nder> SolarNRG: what's your budget?
[22:57:23] <ssi> there's got to be someone in the UK that imports chinese machines and can ship you one
[22:57:51] <SolarNRG> I get under 400 quid a month in benefits, I can spend up to 300 of that because I gave up smoking and me and Lexi eat lentils
[22:58:55] <ssi> seems like you ought to be able to get something like a BF20 clone for 500-700 pounds
[22:58:55] <alex4nder> peatol sells taigs in the UK under their own name
[22:59:11] <SolarNRG> bf20?
[22:59:27] <ssi> http://www.bf20.com/
[22:59:37] <ssi> would be a decent size machine for you to start making parts manually
[22:59:44] <ssi> and then use the machine to make parts for its own conversion
[22:59:54] <alex4nder> damn, Peatol's Taig is 930 lbs.
[22:59:59] <alex4nder> er pounds
[23:00:02] <alex4nder> sterling
[23:00:05] <alex4nder> (funny money)
[23:00:09] <ssi> heheh
[23:00:15] <SolarNRG> Is a bf20 more like a cam?
[23:00:22] <SolarNRG> You can screwthead 3 axes by hand?
[23:00:32] <ssi> it's a manual mill
[23:00:34] <ssi> a smallish one
[23:00:46] <SolarNRG> So a bit better than a pillar drill?
[23:01:05] <ssi> considerably better
[23:01:17] <ssi> you need something like that at minimum to have any reasonable success making parts from steel
[23:01:25] <alex4nder> yah
[23:01:38] <ssi> you want a square column mill
[23:01:39] <SolarNRG> Can I mount big steppers into that and turn it into a CNC?
[23:01:42] <ssi> yes
[23:01:55] <SolarNRG> :D
[23:02:01] <ssi> and it's a common machine that's been converted many times
[23:02:09] <ssi> there are drawings for motor mounts available
[23:02:13] <ssi> you can buy complete kits
[23:02:14] <SolarNRG> Are there guides I can bookmark for future ref?
[23:02:22] <ssi> you can use the machine to make the motor mounts yourself
[23:02:26] <alex4nder> this channel should be renamed to #cncdreamers
[23:02:26] <ssi> yeah bookmark that site I linked you
[23:02:31] <ssi> alex4nder: lololol
[23:03:04] <ssi> SolarNRG: I built my first two cnc machines from scratch, but I already had a manual machine shop to do it with
[23:03:17] <ssi> and even so, they're crappy
[23:03:37] <ssi> you need machine tools to make machine tools
[23:03:56] <syyl> or patient people that own machines..
[23:04:14] <SolarNRG> Sounds like a BF20 is a must have
[23:04:20] <ssi> SolarNRG: it would be a good start
[23:04:27] <SolarNRG> In 2 days time I'm getting a crucible that can melt beer cans into liquid metal
[23:04:34] <SolarNRG> I can pour this into ingots
[23:04:40] <SolarNRG> I have clay
[23:04:47] <syyl> beer cans, pure high grade material ;)
[23:04:52] <SolarNRG> If I had this machine, I could mill the ingots, couldn't I?
[23:05:01] <SolarNRG> It'll be stronger than wood AND cheaper
[23:05:02] <ssi> yes
[23:05:11] <ssi> but I have a feeling you're not going to be happy melting cans :)
[23:05:17] <alex4nder> or milling the result
[23:05:18] <ssi> they oxidize really badly and give you mostly slag
[23:05:21] <archivist> the gas to melt it makes it cost
[23:05:22] <syyl> you will get 50% slag or so :D
[23:05:26] <syyl> but
[23:05:28] <syyl> i have heard
[23:05:30] <SolarNRG> I'm doing it in a microwave
[23:05:39] <syyl> that you can get ready made stock material
[23:05:47] <syyl> (!)
[23:05:49] <ssi> syyl: yeah I've heard about that too
[23:05:55] <syyl> but i think that are rumors
[23:05:56] <ssi> and it comes all regularly-shaped and easy to deal with
[23:06:18] <archivist> see local scrap yard for cheap metals
[23:06:28] <SolarNRG> I'm getting one of these on Thurs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jzKoIuFa0g
[23:06:32] <ssi> I haven't found a good scrap yard yet :/
[23:06:38] <SolarNRG> I know a good scrappy
[23:06:45] <ssi> I buy all my metal retail :'(
[23:06:57] <SolarNRG> He sold me a windscreen wiper motor, a car alternator and a fan I was hoping to use as as turbine but badly bent it out of shape
[23:06:58] <archivist> not looking hard enough
[23:07:00] <syyl> but casting is fun
[23:07:01] <syyl> :)
[23:07:02] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/P6111876.jpg
[23:07:11] <SolarNRG> I've been to a steel merchant and I have some 25mm bar
[23:07:13] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/nick-8.jpg
[23:07:14] <syyl> :D
[23:07:16] <ssi> I would very much like to get into casting
[23:07:32] <SolarNRG> Hey I'll be online again Thurs I'll upload you a vid
[23:07:33] <syyl> casting in shorts, dont try that at home ;)
[23:07:34] <ssi> I'd love to do some patternmaking and pour some iron; make a lathe bed from scratch
[23:07:41] <SolarNRG> I'll get Lexi to film me burning myself badly
[23:08:05] <ssi> SolarNRG: don't forget to run like fuck
[23:08:10] <SolarNRG> LOL
[23:08:10] <ssi> that's the most important step
[23:08:17] <SolarNRG> You saw my last video
[23:08:20] <ssi> yes :)
[23:08:23] <syyl> and no water in the near of molten metal
[23:08:23] <syyl> !
[23:08:40] <SolarNRG> I have my beer cans cut open and in the airing cupboard right now
[23:08:41] <syyl> otherwise you will look funny in the face...
[23:08:55] <alex4nder> s/funny/funnier/
[23:09:01] <syyl> ;)
[23:09:29] <syyl> wet concrete as a surface to cast on is fun too...
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[23:10:04] <syyl> ha, time to leave, have to get up early...
[23:10:19] <syyl> goodnight
[23:10:21] -!- syyl has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[23:10:29] <ssi> aw
[23:10:33] <ssi> now whos gonna be a smartass with me
[23:11:05] <SolarNRG> Iv'e heard pouring molten metal onto wet concrete makes an explosion and is very dangerou
[23:11:05] <SolarNRG> s
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[23:14:33] <SolarNRG> How about this one? http://www.easupplies.com/OPTIMUM-BF20-Gear-Head-MillDrill-p/pt1dei.htm
[23:15:05] <Loetmichel> explosion isnt really correct. the water turn instantly into vapor, and little pices of concrete gets jettiosned in the process
[23:15:35] <Loetmichel> so its like a fragmentation grenade ;-)
[23:15:49] <SolarNRG> Well my cast will be baked
[23:15:56] <SolarNRG> But if I spill onto the wet concrete?
[23:16:05] <SolarNRG> Would it be safer to have the cast on the grass instead?
[23:16:19] <Loetmichel> you have to buy new trousers/new skin
[23:16:32] <SolarNRG> I'll be wearing goggles and gloves
[23:17:01] <Jymmm> s/goggles/full face shield/
[23:17:04] <alex4nder> cup
[23:17:28] <Loetmichel> better solution than concrete/grass: lay a 2cm thick layer of DRY sand on the concrete below your crucible/casting place
[23:17:44] <SolarNRG> I've got sand
[23:17:51] <Loetmichel> DRY sand?
[23:18:05] <SolarNRG> Shall I cook some in a baking tray overnight?
[23:18:16] <Loetmichel> may be a wise idea
[23:18:51] <jdhnc> what is an acceptable latency if you are using 7i43 stepgen?
[23:19:11] * Loetmichel knows what the feeling of little drops of molten metal meltet into the skin is.
[23:19:58] * Loetmichel hat accidentally dropped a 17mm wrench in a 2000Ah 80V lead acid battery (electric luggage truck)
[23:20:18] <Loetmichel> ... was aa bullseye: exactly on the contacts
[23:21:20] <Loetmichel> the wrench was instantly vaporized, i had a gray face, mirroed Glasses and 100s of little black spots on the face/hands/neck
[23:21:55] <alex4nder> damn
[23:22:05] <SolarNRG> did it hurt?
[23:22:10] <SolarNRG> a lot?
[23:22:29] <SolarNRG> 2000 amp hour?
[23:23:03] <SolarNRG> You've worked at airport cargo vehicle reparis
[23:25:37] <SolarNRG> a bf20 costs about 1700 quids
[23:25:58] <SolarNRG> which is considerably cheaper than most professional cnc machines that start at 4 grand up
[23:26:36] <PCW> jdhnc depends on how its setup
[23:26:57] <ssi> SolarNRG: ya that's the machine... that's an awful lot of money it seems like though
[23:27:51] <SolarNRG> Can you find a better deal?
[23:27:56] <ssi> in the US I can :)
[23:27:56] <SolarNRG> I'm searching gear head mills
[23:28:05] <SolarNRG> Britain invented the CAM
[23:28:09] <SolarNRG> US invented the CNC
[23:28:38] <SolarNRG> By 1916 we had the most advanced CAMs in the world
[23:28:42] <SolarNRG> We made tanks!
[23:28:50] <SolarNRG> By ww2 the germans had better tanks
[23:28:56] <SolarNRG> But the US had more tanks
[23:28:56] <ssi> I don't know what CAM means in your context
[23:29:14] <SolarNRG> We had mechanical computers
[23:29:28] <SolarNRG> discrete gears could automate production
[23:29:54] <SolarNRG> but CNC was the genius work of MIT with punch cards
[23:29:57] <SolarNRG> in the 50s
[23:30:06] <SolarNRG> And the advent of the stepper motor
[23:30:37] <PCW> 100 usec should be ok (10% of servo thread)
[23:30:37] <PCW> it could be more tolerant but LinuxCNC would have to use
[23:30:39] <PCW> the actual thread time for position error calculation not the nominal one
[23:30:40] <PCW> if this was done, eve 1ms of latency would be ok
[23:31:53] <PCW> s/eve/even/
[23:32:14] <SolarNRG> What do you think of this axminster mill drill? http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-zx30m-mill-drill-prod719130/?src=froogle
[23:32:19] <SolarNRG> Its less than a grand
[23:32:31] <SolarNRG> I might be able to persuade my Dad to buy it for me for my b'day
[23:34:04] <ssi> avoid round column
[23:34:21] <SolarNRG> Round column?
[23:34:57] <SolarNRG> OK How about this Clake? http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cl500m-metal-lathemill-drill?da=1&TC=GS-060712520
[23:35:00] <SolarNRG> Only 900 quid
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[23:36:29] <SolarNRG> If I'm not mistaken that's a change your belts jobby if you want different speeds
[23:37:28] <SolarNRG> Do you think the Clarke's any good or a steer clear?
[23:37:48] <Loetmichel> [00:23] <SolarNRG> You've worked at airport cargo vehicle reparis <. close, german railway
[23:38:13] <SolarNRG> Deutschbahn
[23:38:23] <ssi> SolarNRG: not crazy about combo machines, and I'm pretty sure the mill head is still round column :)
[23:38:28] <Valen> the problem with that style of one is the size of things you can put into the "mill"/drill section is really small
[23:38:53] <Loetmichel> and no, it didnt hurt, becaus i was occupied by the tought of seeing nothing but stars for the rest of my live
[23:39:08] <Loetmichel> because i was blinded for more than an hour
[23:39:49] <SolarNRG> OK so the Clarke's a no go
[23:40:03] <Valen> SolarNRG: one of these isn't complete crap http://www.malzememarket.com/detail/1158911653/1158911653/urun-sieg-m2-torna-freze-tezgahi-makinasi-makinasi.php
[23:40:19] <Valen> but nothing in this kind of range is what you would call "good"
[23:40:38] <Loetmichel> ssi: i am more of a fan of the opposite way: get a bF20 CNC or similar, and mount a cnc roud table on it as a "lathe"
[23:40:42] <Valen> my firend has one of those and he bolted a massive I beam to the back of it to make the mill section stronger
[23:40:57] <Loetmichel> and use the mill spindle as a driven lathe tool ;-)
[23:41:06] <ssi> Loetmichel: yea that works :)
[23:41:23] <ssi> Loetmichel: or mount your stock in the spindle and clamp a single point tool in the vise
[23:41:52] <Loetmichel> works, too but is a bit uncomfortable ;)
[23:42:07] <SolarNRG> A turkish machine?
[23:42:13] <Valen> nah
[23:42:20] <Valen> just the first website i found lol
[23:42:26] <Valen> sieg is the manufacturer
[23:42:26] <SolarNRG> Definately this one, yeah http://www.easupplies.com/OPTIMUM-BF20-Gear-Head-MillDrill-p/pt1dei.htm?
[23:42:32] <SolarNRG> http://www.easupplies.com/OPTIMUM-BF20-Gear-Head-MillDrill-p/pt1dei.htm
[23:42:49] <Valen> what do you want to cut?
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[23:43:15] <SolarNRG> steel
[23:43:18] <SolarNRG> http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sieg-x2-mini-mill-prod568039/
[23:43:21] <SolarNRG> Here's a good sied
[23:43:24] <SolarNRG> seig even
[23:43:28] <SolarNRG> It's cheap too
[23:43:33] <SolarNRG> Only 600 quid!
[23:43:40] <SolarNRG> I could save up for only 2 months to get that!
[23:43:45] <ssi> X2 isn't a terrible choice
[23:43:49] <ssi> lots of people convert them
[23:43:52] <SolarNRG> :D
[23:43:53] <ssi> it's much much smaller than the bf20
[23:43:58] <SolarNRG> :D
[23:44:21] <SolarNRG> No round column!
[23:44:28] <SolarNRG> Can it do steel?
[23:44:33] <ssi> sure
[23:44:34] <Loetmichel> mine is much smaller
[23:44:35] <SolarNRG> Can I mount my steppers on it?
[23:44:36] <ssi> not real aggressively
[23:44:49] <ssi> yeah probably
[23:44:53] <SolarNRG> :D
[23:44:53] <ssi> do you know what size they are?
[23:45:03] <Loetmichel> and it CAN mill steel... slowly but it can....
[23:45:34] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11801
[23:45:50] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11816
[23:46:07] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11828
[23:46:16] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11840
[23:46:23] <SolarNRG> Wow, I think I'm in love with the X2
[23:46:28] <Valen> those gearhead mills are kinda not as usefull these days
[23:46:35] <Valen> we had one and did this to it
[23:46:35] <SolarNRG> Why not?
[23:46:36] <Valen> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_metal_working_machines/118358-phenolic_basalt_head_our_hm45.html
[23:46:42] <Valen> spindle speed is too slow
[23:46:44] <Loetmichel> (mild steel wasnt good to cut metallized nylon, though)
[23:46:56] <Valen> all the new carbide tools want spindle speed and lots of it
[23:47:18] <Valen> cutting stainless we start to come out the bottom side of the speed of our new spindle
[23:47:23] <Valen> 6K RPM minimum
[23:47:38] <raynerd> Any reason my z axis would be get really hot during running, say after 10 mins or so.. too hot to touch
[23:47:48] <raynerd> z axis stepper of course!
[23:47:49] <Valen> raynerd: guess its working hard?
[23:48:04] <Valen> too much current perhaps?
[23:48:05] <raynerd> nope, that is my issue, quite the opposite in my opinion
[23:48:07] <ssi> Valen: that machine is a RF pattern machine, yea?
[23:48:12] <raynerd> yes, maybe too much current
[23:48:19] <Valen> eh generic chinese crap ssi lol
[23:48:22] <ssi> :)
[23:48:24] <ssi> rong-fu 45
[23:48:28] <ssi> I'm pretty sure
[23:48:47] <Valen> pretty sure its a hu-flung-dung 45
[23:48:55] <ssi> I've seen those water cooled spindles on ebay
[23:48:57] <ssi> happy with it?
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[23:49:27] <raynerd> I have a cheapo TB6560 driver and i`m using that, it doesn`t state actual current like other drivers, just % "of current", I presume that is a % of the total for the motor?
[23:49:27] <Valen> it is a 45, but they all copy each other to the point that i don't think theres an "original manufacturer" any more lol
[23:49:37] <Valen> ssi: kinda...
[23:49:41] <ssi> what are the downsides
[23:49:48] <Valen> it had a pair of angular contact bearins in the front
[23:49:56] <Valen> they were a matched pair
[23:49:57] <Valen> great
[23:50:03] <SolarNRG> Well the x2 looks like you can machine your own upgrades
[23:50:04] <Valen> except they both pointed the same way
[23:50:07] <SolarNRG> It looks like it can do steel
[23:50:15] <SolarNRG> And it looks convertable to a CNC
[23:50:19] <Loetmichel> raynerd: no, its % of the maximum capability of the drivers
[23:50:23] <ssi> hah
[23:50:23] <SolarNRG> Do you guys recommend it?
[23:50:24] <Loetmichel> usaually 3A
[23:50:41] <ssi> SolarNRG: the X2 is small for my tastes, but it's a perfectly reasonable starting point for you
[23:50:57] <ssi> SolarNRG: look around and see what it'd cost you for an X3
[23:50:58] <raynerd> z
[23:51:03] <Loetmichel> ssi: i have on of the watercooled spindles, but the 800W variant
[23:51:08] <Loetmichel> i am totally happy
[23:51:12] <Valen> CnC conversion requires some work
[23:51:24] <Valen> the backlash adjustment in them is pretty crappy
[23:51:36] <raynerd> ahhhh, so if my little motors are only 2A and I`m shoving 3A through them, that is why they may not be happy
[23:51:41] <SolarNRG> x3? Is that a bit bigger, bit more umf?
[23:51:43] <Valen> yes
[23:51:47] <raynerd> although no, the motor will only take what it needs?
[23:51:48] <Loetmichel> raynerd: exactly
[23:51:50] <Valen> no
[23:51:55] <Valen> raynerd: no
[23:51:59] <Loetmichel> no, it will take wahts shoved in
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[23:52:12] <raynerd> ahhhh....oooops :S
[23:52:29] <raynerd> so my choices are 100%, 75, 50, 25
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[23:52:36] <Loetmichel> set the driver to 75% for this channel, shoud fit
[23:52:45] <Valen> don't guess, find out
[23:52:52] <Valen> does the motor have any markings on it?
[23:52:57] <Loetmichel> thats 2.25A, tahts close enough
[23:53:02] <SolarNRG> http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sieg-x3-mill-drill-prod377295/?src=froogle
[23:53:05] <SolarNRG> 1300 quid
[23:53:07] <SolarNRG> oooh
[23:53:13] <raynerd> yes, my motors are 2A
[23:53:13] <SolarNRG> cheaper than the optimum
[23:53:22] <SolarNRG> A bit heavy
[23:53:28] <SolarNRG> Looks good though
[23:53:37] <Loetmichel> SolarNRG: heavy is good
[23:53:38] <raynerd> would you perhaps be tempted to go to 50% and drive them a little under?
[23:53:43] <Valen> SolarNRG: its the same as the one i sent you
[23:53:54] <Valen> all that grey metal is just covers
[23:54:00] <Valen> and a kinda crappy table
[23:54:06] <Loetmichel> raynerd: if the resulting torque is sufficient: go for 50% ;-)
[23:54:18] <Valen> 2.25 with a fan perhaps
[23:54:40] <Valen> run one of the nastyass stress testers and make sure you dont loose steps
[23:54:51] <Loetmichel> Valen: i drive my 1A z stepper with about 1,3A
[23:54:54] <SolarNRG> Have you worked with an X3 before?
[23:55:05] <Loetmichel> gets alsmost to hot to touch and stays there ;-)
[23:55:10] <ssi> SolarNRG: the BF20 and X3 are very very similar
[23:55:12] <ssi> and yes, heavy is what you want
[23:55:14] <ssi> heavier the better
[23:55:22] <SolarNRG> The x3 is a bit cheaper than the bf20 it seems
[23:55:30] <raynerd> Loetmichel: can I just ask one more question. I am currently putting 24v to the driver as I believe any more and they blow, despite their rating. Is it current that denotes speed? Only I find all my motors/axis running slow compared to videos on the net! They also make a lot of noise and others I have seen are very quiet. they also make a noise when stationary
[23:55:37] <Valen> I'd suggest the combo machine as the first one you get
[23:55:49] <SolarNRG> The x3 has electronically controlled speed, I guess that's good for going under load
[23:55:54] <Loetmichel> raynerd: no, not directly
[23:56:20] <Loetmichel> a stepper motor hast 2 or more windings which will alternately poweer for each step
[23:56:31] <Valen> SolarNRG: any tool you get in this price range thats not second hand will be a toy basically
[23:56:42] <Valen> in comparison to the big heavy duty ones ;->
[23:56:56] <SolarNRG> a toy?
[23:57:02] <Loetmichel> so if you make FAST steps, the current has to be shoved in raidly, an inductor resists any change of current through it
[23:57:11] <Valen> so you will need to work around the weaknesses in the machine to make your parts
[23:57:33] <Loetmichel> so the more Voltage you have at the drivers, the faster the winding reaches nominal current
[23:57:39] <ssi> that's true of any machine thought
[23:57:49] <ssi> I have to work around the weaknesses of my little "toy" machines
[23:57:50] <Valen> 50 years ago a machine of the same size would weigh ~300-400kg
[23:57:53] <SolarNRG> So I won't be able to make a model steam turbine with this?
[23:57:54] <ssi> my big used old airon
[23:57:56] <Valen> now they weigh ~100
[23:57:59] <ssi> my HNC
[23:58:00] <Loetmichel> effect is: the more voltage on the drivers, the faster teh stepper can turn without loss of torque
[23:58:00] <ssi> everything
[23:58:11] <raynerd> hummm ok.
[23:58:13] <Valen> don't misunderstand when i say toy
[23:58:31] <Valen> it'll still cut metal
[23:58:36] <SolarNRG> You mean ok for prototyping, not ok for mass production?
[23:58:43] <Valen> but the finish and accuracy won't be the same
[23:58:44] <raynerd> you see if I try and increase the velocity in emc setup, I start stalling.
[23:58:58] <ssi> SolarNRG: like I said earlier, machining steel takes a lot of force
[23:59:07] <Valen> when you take a cut, the machine will bend
[23:59:08] <ssi> SolarNRG: a light machine will bend away from that force
[23:59:16] <raynerd> and I`m concerned about the noise... they seem to screach when still and moving.
[23:59:20] <Loetmichel> raynerd: dial down accerlerating and try agail
[23:59:23] <Loetmichel> agail
[23:59:25] <Loetmichel> ggrrrr
[23:59:27] <Loetmichel> again
[23:59:28] <raynerd> they are decent motors as well: Sanyo Denki Step-Syn bipolar steppers (Type 103H7126-5010) which are 2 amp
[23:59:46] <Valen> on our "big toy" lathe, we take a cut, then take another cut without moving the tool
[23:59:48] <SolarNRG> When I drill steel at home, I use my hand drill on its slowest speed
[23:59:53] <Valen> because the whole thing has bent