#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-04-02

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[00:04:04] <Jymmm> alex_joni: But the thing is he can get it to full bloom with no priming in less than 10 seconds!
[00:05:43] <Jymmm> alex_joni: He mentions that ONE stove take FIVE cans to build. I can only think he's using the extra sheets as coils within the double-wall. There's no "external" wicking he says, sound like he's implying that there's internal wicking of some sort,
[00:06:36] <Jymmm> alex_joni: which sorta kinda makes sense as then the fuel would be spread out more across the metal
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[00:17:41] <Jymmm> alex_joni: But I can't figure out what type of configuration would use 4 cans within the double-wall and maybe some wicking. Layered and curled? squarewave shaped? something else?
[00:19:33] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I keep trying to think like a heatsink, where the more surface area there is the better. But since the heat source is the center, not sure what type of pattern would disburse the heat the best.
[00:21:45] <mozmck> maybe here's another candidate for a linuxcnc computer: http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.%20Linux%20on%208bit
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[00:24:08] <Jordan__> anyone know the diff in a 1"TPI screw vs a 1"TPI pulley/belt system? Would it take the same torque to move them?
[00:24:30] <alex_joni> Jymmm: "This stove blossoms fast due to the size of the holes.
[00:24:30] <alex_joni> Not sure that getting a quick blossom is the best thing.
[00:24:32] <alex_joni> What is most important is how hot and long she can burn."
[00:25:28] <mozmck> Jordan__: I don't think a pulley/belt system is measured in TPI?
[00:25:31] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I haven't seen, nor been able to get a bloom in less than 30s and that is WITH priming it.
[00:25:45] <Jordan__> mozmck, just making a comparison if it were
[00:25:54] <Jordan__> try to get all variables out
[00:26:27] <Jordan__> i'm talking turn per inch
[00:26:45] <Jymmm> alex_joni: From what I do know, larger jets == hotter flame and more fuel consumption.
[00:26:47] <mozmck> I think if the ratio is the same so the motor turns the same number of turns per inch the torque should be roughly the same.
[00:27:25] <mozmck> The only difference would be in losses which I think (not totally sure) would be about the same.
[00:27:32] <Jymmm> Jordan__: are ALL the pulleys have the same qty of teeth?
[00:28:50] <Jymmm> If the pulley on the motor has (let's say) ten teeth, and the leadscrew (or whatever) pulley has 20 teeth, then it's a 2:1 ratio.
[00:29:41] <mozmck> ubuntu on an AVR is pretty amazing.
[00:30:11] <Jymmm> It takes about 2 hours to boot to bash prompt
[00:30:14] <Jordan__> i'm trying to compare turns, 1 turn on each translates to 1" linear
[00:30:32] <Jymmm> Then 4 more hours to boot up the entire Ubuntu
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[00:30:48] <Jymmm> Starting X takes a lot longer.
[00:31:16] <mozmck> yeah, but that it runs at all it something. and on top of an ARM emulator too.
[00:31:35] <Jymmm> mozmck: Oh, I think it's VERY FUCKING COOL!!!
[00:31:49] <Jymmm> mozmck: I even have some SIMMs around here too =)
[00:32:17] <mozmck> Heh, I don't have time to mess with something like that - or I would :)
[00:32:38] <Jymmm> mozmck: Like like you have to be fast or anything =)
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[01:07:47] <alex4nder> hey
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[01:36:15] <ReadError> ordered a mill ;)))))
[01:46:39] <alex4nder> nice
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[02:23:48] <Jordan__> hey if i wanted speed why don't i just get a 6tpi drive screw, with a 7.5degree motor
[02:23:57] <Jordan__> this one is $2
[02:24:04] <Jordan__> http://www.nmbtc.com/pdf/motors/PM55L048.pdf
[02:26:41] <Jordan__> it looks like it has amazing torque
[02:27:28] <Jordan__> actually no
[02:28:16] <Jordan__> but it's not too bad
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[02:50:05] <Jordan__> would it be stupid to use a cheap PM 7.5-15 degree stepper with a Drive Screw if I wanted to sacrifice resoultion for speed?
[02:50:18] <Jordan__> insead of a hybrid?
[02:53:00] <ssi> why not just get motors that you can run fast, so you get speed and resolution at the same time
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[02:53:44] <Jordan__> key word cheap
[02:54:04] <Jordan__> i don't mind sacrificing resolution for speed, i don't want to sacrifice precision
[02:54:18] <Jymmm> second key word: bastard!
[02:54:33] <Jymmm> Now, put them all together and what do you get??/
[02:54:39] <Jordan__> ...
[02:54:57] <Jymmm> Everybody who has ever joined this channel!
[02:55:36] <Jymmm> Then they learn in 3 months they wasted a few hundred when they could have just got what they needed the first time had they listened =)
[02:55:58] <Jordan__> so get the most expensive motor one can buy?
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[02:56:11] <Jymmm> I never said that
[02:57:13] <Jymmm> One option http://www.surpluscenter.com/
[02:57:21] <Jordan__> the idea is to exchange high resolution steppers belts combo, with high resolution drive screw and low resolution stepper
[02:57:43] <Jordan__> should qualify low rez stepper high speed
[02:57:44] <Jymmm> Jordan__: for a laser?
[02:57:50] <Jordan__> no a 3d printer
[02:57:54] <Jymmm> ah
[02:58:35] <Jordan__> basically very little load
[02:59:02] <Jymmm> so you could use belts even?
[03:00:00] <Jordan__> yes, with about a 30N-cm 1.8 degree motor
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[03:01:19] <Jordan__> I wanted to possibly switch to drive screw, but it wouldn't compete with speed of belt. So 5-6 TPI drive screw with a fast high degree PM motor
[03:01:46] <Jordan__> http://www.nmbtc.com/pdf/motors/PM55L048.pdf for instance
[03:02:08] <Jordan__> this is $2 a piece on ebay
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[03:03:21] <Jordan__> 48steps/rev
[03:03:33] <Jordan__> compared to 200steps/rev of a hybrid
[03:03:52] <Jordan__> but 48 steps/rev is fine on a drive screw
[03:04:28] <Jordan__> do you get my meaning sir
[03:05:27] <Jordan__> as an added benefit they wouldn't run as hot don't think
[03:05:42] <ssi> stepper motors are one of the cheapest parts of building most machines
[03:05:57] <ssi> I don't see the point of trying to scrimp so hard
[03:06:11] <Jordan__> well for one It would be a necessity
[03:06:11] <ssi> false economy
[03:06:25] <Jordan__> these PM motors look like they spin faster
[03:06:56] <Jordan__> a nece ssi ty!
[03:07:31] <ssi> wut
[03:09:23] <Jordan__> 2 they wouldn't run as hot...
[03:09:37] <Jordan__> 3 it would be cheaper
[03:10:49] <Jordan__> 4 smaller power supply
[03:11:20] <ssi> you can't get something for nothing
[03:11:35] <ssi> if it takes X power to run with the bigger motors, it'll take X power to run with the smaller
[03:11:35] <Jordan__> what is it you think i'm getting for nothing
[03:11:47] <Jordan__> no i changed the drive mechanism
[03:11:53] <ssi> doesn't matter
[03:11:54] <ssi> work is work
[03:12:36] <Jordan__> i thought you get way more torque out of drive screw
[03:13:07] <ssi> you can trade torque for speed or speed for torque, but work is work
[03:13:30] <djdelorie> gears change torque but not horsepower (not counting efficiency losses ;)
[03:13:31] <Jordan__> what i lost was the resolution of the stepper
[03:13:47] <Jordan__> but i gained back with the drive
[03:13:52] <ssi> my point is if you want to move the same mass at the same or higher speed
[03:13:52] <Jordan__> sorry lead screw
[03:13:57] <ssi> you can't do so with a smaller power supply
[03:14:05] <ssi> regardless of resolution or drive mechanism
[03:14:59] <ssi> also bear in mind that acme screws aren't the worlds most efficient power transfers
[03:15:13] <ssi> and those little $2 printer motors likely won't have the power to do much
[03:15:33] <ssi> also, you're way better off going with a nema form factor
[03:15:51] <ssi> otherwise when you finally realize that your $2 motors aren't cutting it, you're gonna have more work for yourself trying to change out the motors
[03:17:13] <Jordan__> yea actually thes don't even spin fast enough
[03:23:16] <ssi> how much do you expect to spend on the rest of the machine?
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[03:29:00] <KimK> Has anyone tried 2.5.0 on a real machine yet?
[03:29:26] <ssi> I've been on the 2.5 branch for awhile, but I haven't pulled since the official release
[03:30:18] <KimK> OK, thanks, just curious.
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[03:58:55] <Jordan__> i'm already building one now, just waiting on electronics board.
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[04:50:32] <djdelorie> is there some magic to setting up a tool table from within the gcode file?
[04:57:53] <ssi> I was wondering how to do that earlier
[04:57:57] <ssi> let me know if you figure it out :)
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[05:03:36] <djdelorie> it looks like the tool table is part of the machine description, not the job description.
[05:03:44] <ssi> yeah
[05:04:28] <ssi> also, I was wondering if it's possible to force a G43 after a tool change
[05:04:36] <ssi> I hate messing that one up
[05:04:49] <djdelorie> for now, I'm just toggling between tools 1 and 2, and "updating the tool table" on the fly with G10 L1
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[05:06:00] <djdelorie> and/or using pause/message to simulate "tool change" manually
[05:06:28] <djdelorie> ok, how do you bring up the current tool info from the main GUI ?
[05:06:52] <ssi> axis shows the current tool in the status bar at the bottom
[05:06:58] <ssi> other than that, I don't know what you're asking
[05:07:31] <djdelorie> how do you bring up axis then?
[05:07:42] <ssi> axis is the default GUI
[05:07:59] <djdelorie> ah! There it is. It lies.
[05:08:19] <ssi> heheh
[05:08:35] <djdelorie> it ignores the G10 L1 changes
[05:08:46] <Jymmm> BINGO!
[05:08:47] <ssi> after you do the G10
[05:08:51] <ssi> try doing a reload tool table from the menu
[05:08:58] <djdelorie> oh wait, no it doesn't... I'm confusing radius and diameter...
[05:09:01] <djdelorie> grrr
[05:09:23] * Jymmm tosses in circumference in there too
[05:09:25] * djdelorie tweaks script again
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[05:10:05] <Jymmm> I think I'm gonna need to take apart my heater tomorrow =(
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[05:31:48] <ssi> hrm
[05:32:52] * djdelorie thinks it would be easier to generate one gcode file per drill size, so I can manually touch off each bit as needed, z-wise
[05:33:16] <djdelorie> linuxcnc doesn't seem to let you jog while the program is waiting for you to unpause it
[05:33:24] <ssi> that's been a common complaint lately
[05:33:28] <ssi> I think some folks have a way around that
[05:33:52] <djdelorie> I figured I could jog the cutter to me, swap bits, jog it back, zero the Z, and continue...
[05:33:52] <ssi> best option if you can manage it is to make your tool length repeatable
[05:35:04] <djdelorie> but... I can't jog it. Do I have to configure a manual changer that's always at a specific location, with a gauge plate available to act as a local zero?
[05:35:12] <djdelorie> that would be annoying
[05:35:25] <djdelorie> especially since drill bits vary in length
[05:35:38] <ssi> well if it makes you feel any better
[05:35:51] <ssi> be glad you only have to worry about length and diameter
[05:36:04] <djdelorie> and not the other 15 columns in the tool table? ;-)
[05:36:09] <ssi> yeah
[05:36:26] <ssi> tool tables for lathes are much bigger pain in the ass
[05:36:30] <djdelorie> yeah, I mentioned adding CNC to my lathe to my wife, she just looked at me funny...
[05:37:18] <ssi> I spend more time screwing with setup and zeroing tools than I do making parts :(
[05:37:54] <djdelorie> so far on my lathe, I've spent 100% of the time on setup, mostly because it's a semi-restoration :-)
[05:38:03] <ssi> yeah :)
[05:38:05] <djdelorie> I did a test cut, does that count?
[05:38:32] <djdelorie> I did manage to get it all cleaned and lubed over the weekend, at least the parts that need to be in order to do "normal" lathe things with it
[05:38:39] <ssi> how's it cut
[05:38:42] <djdelorie> half the gears are still un-de-rusted though.
[05:38:59] <djdelorie> straight, but not smooth. I was using the first tool I pulled out of the bucket so it's probably my fault
[05:39:12] <djdelorie> I was just testing the power feed
[05:39:14] <ssi> ever run a lathe before this one?
[05:39:31] <djdelorie> er, yes, but they were either (1) a wood lathe, or (2) too crappy to cut right
[05:40:02] <ssi> speeds and feeds are non-trivial
[05:40:08] <ssi> takes a lot of practice to get a good finish
[05:40:22] <djdelorie> yup. I've got a friend in town who's a machinist, I'm hoping he'll find time to teach me enough to get by
[05:40:54] <djdelorie> but at least any problems from now on will be my fault, and not the lathe's fault. Well, maybe the bit's fault ;-)
[05:41:15] <ssi> hopefully :)
[05:41:24] <mhaberler> djdelorie: look at master, and configs/sim/remap/manual-toolchange-with-tool-length-switch
[05:41:25] <ssi> I can't do crap with my manual lathe, and I think it's mostly the lathe's fault
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[05:43:08] <djdelorie> mhaberler: thanks!
[05:43:41] <mhaberler> the jog-while-paused is on my longer term list, no ETA
[05:44:16] <djdelorie> it's rough trying to support big fully-automatic machines *and* small mostly-human machines at the same time, yes? ;-)
[05:44:49] <djdelorie> perhaps the python g-code remapper could take over M00 ?
[05:45:00] <mhaberler> had to jump a lot of hoops to get that one working (700+ commits)
[05:45:37] <djdelorie> perhaps it's safer for me to split the file up into one g-code file per drill bit then :-)
[05:45:44] <mhaberler> well, M0: Iet me see, I did something around that recently
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[05:46:00] <djdelorie> as long as the X and Y part origins don't change, it should work fine
[05:46:39] <mhaberler> http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/emc2-dev.git/commit/ed8b97129a1b79667bb3180924cfead17fecb545
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[05:46:51] <mhaberler> http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/emc2-dev.git/commit/43169eb9d69c7adedf19506257809eca10f9c5d9
[05:46:59] <ssi> djdelorie: what is your spindle?
[05:47:01] <Nick001> Finally got another video uploaded
[05:47:01] <Nick001> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbGPS6bGzg
[05:47:14] <djdelorie> 1/8" die grinder
[05:47:23] <andypugh-iPhone> Hi
[05:47:49] <mhaberler> hi andy - great to hear you made it!
[05:48:20] <ssi> andy :)
[05:48:28] <djdelorie> the one in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHQffhbGyRE
[05:48:32] <ssi> djdelorie: do tools not bottom out in the collet or chuck you're using?
[05:48:46] <mhaberler> ok, M0 can be remapped
[05:49:11] <djdelorie> the bits are not all the same length, even within a given box of the same size. They're all reground pcb bits
[05:49:30] <ssi> djdelorie: yeah but you can put a caliper on them and put that length in a tool table
[05:50:00] <djdelorie> I'd have to keep track of which 0.013 bit is which, though
[05:50:13] <djdelorie> the spindle is this one: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Micro-Air-Grinder-17-pc-Kit/H8212
[05:50:31] <ssi> Nick001: your oil looks the same color as my oil
[05:50:51] <andypugh-iPhone> Ah, do this client "away"s me if I look at Yputube?
[05:50:53] <djdelorie> I think for now, it's easier to (1) split the job into one-file-per-bit so I can manually zero Z, and later (2) put in the switch-sense manual tool zeroing thing
[05:51:35] <djdelorie> mhaberler: the second half of that question is, can python re-enable jogging and touching off ?
[05:52:02] <mhaberler> nope, sorry - no ETA yet
[05:52:46] <djdelorie> ok, sticking with plan B then
[05:52:59] <mhaberler> I see the need, I want it myself, but when I last tried I didnt understand the implications well enough yet; it's marginally better now
[05:53:26] <mhaberler> (my understanding, not the functionality ;-)
[05:57:06] <djdelorie> understood; I maintain a few packages myself so I see it too
[05:59:40] <ssi> Nick001: part looks good
[06:01:00] <mhaberler> q whether this would fit your need: I thought about a rs274 code which would enable jogging during auto, and wait until done (say some hal pin); this isnt as general as jog-while-pause but could get most of the milage while being simpler to do?
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[06:01:55] <djdelorie> like M00 but specific to linuxcnc ?
[06:02:25] <mhaberler> sort of; to mean 'when you come here, enable jogging until done'
[06:02:40] <andypugh-iPhone> This is no good. I will get back when I am actually home.
[06:02:47] <mhaberler> :-/
[06:02:55] <mhaberler> uh, oh.
[06:03:02] <Nick001> ssi - at least it's making parts for a change instead of collecting dust - have a lot of wires to get back into cabnets
[06:03:11] <mhaberler> anyway, gotta run - cu, folks
[06:03:12] <djdelorie> perhaps we're thinking of it wrong. Maybe we need a new type of tool changer that is "human is fiddling"
[06:03:13] <ssi> Nick001: definitely :)
[06:03:33] <ssi> Nick001: mine's back together and running again with the silver soldered coupler
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[06:04:00] <ssi> Nick001: i had to do a bunch of messing with the home switch in there... stupid little wires on those terminal blocks are fragile
[06:04:10] <Nick001> saw that - hope it stands up
[06:04:40] <Nick001> did you get the pins out
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[06:04:55] <ssi> yeah
[06:05:24] <ssi> one of them came out, and I soldered it back on
[06:05:33] <ssi> the other wouldn't come out and I soldered it in situ
[06:06:06] <Nick001> need the tool to get them out without breaking something
[06:06:11] <ssi> yeah
[06:06:18] <ssi> and I'm sure the tool is a billion dollars
[06:07:08] <Nick001> about 150 back in the early 80's from amp - remember that one well
[06:07:51] <Nick001> alot of money for what I got
[06:08:11] <Nick001> but at least it works
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[06:09:10] <ssi> $430 from newark
[06:09:10] <ssi> heh
[06:09:23] <Nick001> ouch
[06:09:34] <ssi> I have enough multi-hundred dollar crimp/insertion/extraction tools, thankyouverymuch
[06:09:51] <ssi> amp 29250 terminal crimper is $1k for gods sake
[06:09:52] <Nick001> does newark have the pins?
[06:10:01] <ssi> yeah
[06:10:17] <ssi> http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-amp/42574-3/connector-contact-pin-crimp/dp/93F7321
[06:10:20] <ssi> I think it's those?
[06:10:23] <ssi> $5 apiece is spendy
[06:11:13] <Nick001> about what hardinge gets if I remember - have a print to make them
[06:11:44] <ssi> hah
[06:11:48] <ssi> have you made any?
[06:12:41] <Nick001> not yet - bought enough to get 3 encoders hooked up
[06:13:05] <ssi> I'll probably keep my eyes open for the tools on ebay for a reasonable price
[06:13:08] <ssi> it'd be nice to have
[06:13:32] <ssi> I end up going through this damn cycle of ridiculously expensive connectors more often than I'd like
[06:13:53] <Nick001> add to your tool collection
[06:14:11] <Nick001> can't have enough -)
[06:14:11] <ssi> you don't understand
[06:14:35] <ssi> I have something like $15,000 retail price worth of aviation crimpers and tools
[06:14:48] <ssi> and some of the connectors themselves are $20 APIECE
[06:15:04] <ssi> but I buy the tools on ebay and a buddy brings me bags of connectors from delta :D
[06:15:25] <Nick001> now thats what you should be making
[06:15:41] <ssi> the connectors?
[06:15:52] <ssi> it's a four-part connector. Two gold plated machined pins and two plastic housings
[06:16:06] <ssi> and actually, the plastic housings themselvles are two parts, because they have a rubber strain relief boot
[06:17:08] <Nick001> guess they want them to stay connected at 30,000 feet - good idea
[06:17:22] <ssi> they're really nice connectors
[06:17:33] <ssi> push them together and they snap together easily, very secure
[06:17:37] <ssi> twist and pull to release
[06:20:16] <Nick001> time to get some sleep - later
[06:20:57] <ssi> night
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[06:43:56] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:03:51] <Loetmichel> mornin
[07:03:54] <Loetmichel> '
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[08:40:18] <MattyMatt> random lathe porn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwgobIVj4fU
[08:51:13] <Valen> 's some nice porn
[08:52:43] <MattyMatt> I wish I could afford 2 hydraulic chucks to do that
[08:54:23] <MattyMatt> I've got a plan involving a collet chuck being tightened by the spindle motor, but it seems complicated
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[09:01:56] <archivist> MattyMatt, look at the citizen lathe porn there are two tool axes so both ends can work at the same time
[09:03:21] <Tecan> next project is a pick n place
[09:03:45] <Tecan> i need a bigger room
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[09:25:28] <Thetawaves> i love how they left the burs on the part
[09:25:43] <Thetawaves> if they had done the final turning after drilling the holes, there would be no burs
[09:26:12] <Valen> there would still be burrs
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[09:26:21] <Valen> they would just be inside the holes not sticking out
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[10:01:48] <mhaberler> motion id zero: can somebody explain what this really means? No motion? end of queue?
[10:02:49] <mhaberler> oop,s wrong channel
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[10:57:05] <archivist> Thetawaves, burs are also a sign of blunt tools :)
[10:59:41] <archivist> I made a gear Saturday and the burs between the teeth after final diameter turning forced me to make a second gear
[11:00:08] <archivist> top left is the second attempt http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/IMG_1214.JPG
[11:04:43] <jthornton> archivist, must have good eyes or eye helpers
[11:06:01] <archivist> I use a stereo zoom microscope to eyeball the swarf
[11:07:02] <archivist> worse when on the machine with the rotaries obscuring the view
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[11:29:45] <jthornton> is the small gear on the shaft one piece?
[11:36:26] <Jymmm> jthornton: If you like puzzles... http://pastebin.com/WyDsdVNg
[11:41:44] <Tom_itx> how many _______ does it take to screw in a light bulb
[11:42:49] <archivist> jthornton, yup
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[11:58:07] <mazafaka> Do you create the watches, archivist ?
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[12:10:58] <ReadError> seems i will need a rotary table ;/
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[12:24:04] <archivist> mazafaka, no, just spare parts
[12:24:25] <mazafaka> anyway, very specific work
[12:24:55] <archivist> or general as each job is different
[12:26:02] <mazafaka> each job is different, yeah.
[12:27:03] <mazafaka> details appear in a right shape only when you respect the level of difficulty of the task. Many things can go crooked way at any moment.
[12:27:50] <Tectu> guys, when i have simple L297/L298 Drivers, and I have on one Axis two motors, can i put both motors parallel on one driver, or isn't that good? (don't worry about the current)
[12:27:51] <archivist> ReadError, two rotaries stacked :)
[12:28:09] <ReadError> lol
[12:28:17] <archivist> Tectu, that sounds wrong
[12:28:30] <Tectu> archivist, i know, i just ask if it would work ;)
[12:28:58] <archivist> I dont think it will be very good at all
[12:29:24] <Tectu> archivist, how so?
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[12:29:31] <Tectu> it's just double inductivity for the driver
[12:29:34] <archivist> you could possibly put the two in series
[12:29:59] <archivist> better to just get another driver
[12:30:26] <Tectu> why series?
[12:30:45] <archivist> better current sharing/control
[12:30:59] <Tectu> ah, better slopes?
[12:31:18] <Tectu> archivist, well, it's for a 3D Printer, so well... i don't need to mill 5000mm steal sheets ;)
[12:31:20] <archivist> define slope
[12:31:31] <Tectu> rising of the voltage/current?
[12:31:50] <archivist> no worse due to less across the coil
[12:33:43] <archivist> Tecan, is this for a gantry?
[12:34:53] <Tectu> i guess you mean me? what do you mean with gantry?
[12:36:11] <archivist> Im trying to find out why you are putting motors in parallel
[12:37:22] <archivist> this form with motors both sides http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GantryPlasmaMachine
[12:37:57] <ReadError> if a stepper motor misses a step, is there feedback so the controller knows?
[12:38:10] <ReadError> or that would require additional sensors correct?
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[12:38:19] <ReadError> optical encoder
[12:38:45] <archivist> most dont have feedback
[12:39:02] <archivist> so dont allow lost steps
[12:40:15] <ReadError> gecko controllers the best for the home machinist?
[12:42:16] <jthornton> I use the 203v on all my stepper projects
[12:42:16] <archivist> some like them, I happen to use some chinese drivers, probably leadshine
[12:42:38] <jthornton> but the 251 is the same driver but scaled down
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[15:05:52] <ssi> hrm
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[15:15:04] <ssi> let's all think happy thoughts and hope I get a mesa box in the mail today
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[15:31:10] * djdelorie is already thinking happy thoughts: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/osboard-cnc-015-closeup.html
[15:32:15] <ssi> nice
[15:32:23] <archivist> random holes! some close to a straight line :)
[15:32:29] <ssi> eheheheh
[15:33:09] <djdelorie> 409 0.0145" holes in 12 minutes, average 1.7 sec/hole. Drill feed 3 in/sec
[15:33:14] <djdelorie> ONE DRILL BIT
[15:34:15] <djdelorie> that's with the grizzly H8212 micro air grinder as a spindle and a resharpened pcb drill bit
[15:34:16] <archivist> removing the human does make tooling last longer :)
[15:34:43] <djdelorie> actually, I have a cantilever drill press I use for pcbs, I rarely break bits. But it takes forever and it's hard to get the hole in the right spot
[15:35:27] <djdelorie> the H8212 does spit oil on the pcb, though, something to consider. It has an inline oiler which works pretty well, the spindle head was cool to the touch at the end of the job
[15:35:50] <djdelorie> here's the whole board: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/osboard-cnc-015.html and I'm working on the video
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[16:03:18] <djdelorie> just checked distances with the dial calipers; the Y direction is off by 0.1% (half a hole across the width of the board) but X and diagonals appear dead on :-) :-)
[16:03:52] <ssi> have you done any trace milling yet?
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[16:04:39] <djdelorie> no, I have a UV film setup for etching
[16:05:06] <djdelorie> I can line up the films with a pre-drilled board with pretty good accuracy, done it before
[16:05:36] <djdelorie> hmmm... I can make my own solder paste stencils now...
[16:06:11] <djdelorie> I think I can mill a vacuum hold-down out of a piece of one-by wood, too.
[16:07:01] <djdelorie> here's a good shot of the spindle though (video in 20 more minutes): http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2604.html
[16:08:32] <djdelorie> most of the oil, and the exhaust air, goes up the clear tube surrounding the air hose. A little oil escapes through the head and spits out on the work piece.
[16:08:43] <djdelorie> The silver knurled part is the on/off/speed control
[16:09:59] <djdelorie> the runout is a LOT less than a dremel. Aside from spitting oil (which I suppose is good for the tool), I really like it
[16:10:53] <archivist> is the y error some backlash/play
[16:11:12] <djdelorie> I don't know. It's got an anti-backlash nut on it.
[16:11:36] <archivist> time for a dti and a test
[16:12:03] <djdelorie> the gcode generator does the Z plunge in two steps, to make sure it's stopped moving before it cuts. The Y screw itself might have some movement to it
[16:13:11] <djdelorie> I suppose I could script a "left, center, right, center, left, center, etc" drill pattern and see how well the holes line up. If I needed more accuracy. And if I thought I could fix it.
[16:13:58] <archivist> if backlash/play emc can compensate
[16:14:22] <djdelorie> true
[16:14:28] <archivist> but for pcb work far better to fix mechanically
[16:15:05] <djdelorie> one thing I did notice facing off the board under it, is that the router seems to tilt depending on which way it's travelling. The Z carriage seems to have some tilting play in it, which I knew about
[16:15:07] <archivist> or, what I do, approach from one direction
[16:15:54] <djdelorie> the code to sort the drills tries to minimize travel time. For a few thou it's not worth the hassle, my etching isn't that precise anyway
[16:16:25] <djdelorie> but I could put a 10 thou jog in before each hole if needed
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[16:16:47] <archivist> the play in my lead screws is bigger than the teeth on the gear I made saturday
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[16:17:17] <djdelorie> *that* sounds like a problem ;-)
[16:17:23] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/IMG_1214.JPG
[16:17:31] <archivist> gear on left :)
[16:17:51] <djdelorie> ok, WOW
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[16:18:41] <djdelorie> were those done on a micro-lathe, or a full size one?
[16:19:13] <djdelorie> my micro-lathe has a huge amount of play in the toolholder, but my full size one doesn't
[16:19:37] <archivist> lathe is a little cnc Denford starturn for educational use, the milling is in the home made fugly mill
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[16:20:03] <ssi> FuglyMill(tm)
[16:20:15] <djdelorie> I guess my question is, did you build a small precise tool to make small precise parts, or a big precise tool?
[16:20:18] <archivist> well it is fugly :)
[16:22:14] <archivist> was "designed" for gear cutting but other machines/items donated parts http://www.archivist.info/cnc/stage8/IMG_0268.JPG
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[16:23:19] <djdelorie> I'd like to figure out how to cut gears on my big lathe, but that means figuring out how to hack an indexer onto it
[16:23:46] <djdelorie> I figure I could use the threading gears, just need some sort of tooth-catch-thing
[16:24:08] <archivist> add a worm to drive the gears
[16:25:52] <djdelorie> it's a 1922 South Bend. Adding *anything* to it is a tricky problem
[16:26:35] <djdelorie> I figure, I have a full gear set, I should be able to make gears with the same number of teeth as an existing gear, if I use the teeth as stops
[16:26:56] <archivist> a mandrel in the rear of the spindle
[16:27:15] <ssi> archivist: you're right,that IS ugly :D
[16:27:54] <archivist> but it does the job :)
[16:27:59] <ssi> clearly!
[16:30:42] <djdelorie> archivist: here's the gearbox: http://www.delorie.com/photos/southbend-lathe/img_2612.html
[16:33:06] <archivist> djdelorie, see hole in spindle, use an expanding mandrel to add a gear, add worm to the frame holding the switch and mount indexing plates on the worm or better a stepper
[16:33:48] <djdelorie> I figured I'd mount an indexing plate to the top threading gear mount (the tiny gear just under the direction gears)
[16:34:00] * archivist steals the faceplate he spots on the floor
[16:34:02] <djdelorie> assuming those two gears (spindle and top threading) have the same number of teeth
[16:34:24] <djdelorie> heh. I have to make a bigger derusting bath for that one. There's a chuck about that big too.
[16:34:51] <archivist> faceplate is the bit missing from my southbend
[16:35:19] <archivist> but its the later wartime toolroom model
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[16:35:38] <djdelorie> the only things I haven't found yet, and they might still be at my in-laws house, are the T handle for the small chuck and the little oil stick for the dead center.
[16:36:20] <archivist> I would not mount the indexing down the gear chain due to added play and errors in the gears
[16:36:44] <djdelorie> good point. I thought of those because my existing gears *do* mount there.
[16:37:18] <archivist> also depends on types of gears you wish to make
[16:37:56] <djdelorie> I have no idea - yet. It was just something I thought of when I was telling my son all the things you can do with just a lathe.
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[16:39:36] <archivist> this is what I think you can do http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/ml7dividing.htm
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[16:40:18] <archivist> he is driving the back gear
[16:42:25] <djdelorie> my back gear has a cover on it that's hard to remove; the motor mount is bolted over it
[16:43:25] <archivist> back gear can have play, mounting something in the rear of the spindle could be better
[16:48:44] <djdelorie> how about a 9:1 or 27:1 timing belt system off the back? Driving that with a 200 count stepper gives lots of division options
[16:49:04] <djdelorie> or 21:1 if you need a divide-by-7
[16:51:26] <djdelorie> in my case, though, it might make more sense to mount a rotary table to the tool holder, and use the lathe to drive the cutter
[16:52:58] <djdelorie> ah! the video is ready: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR1y6Eq19EU
[16:53:23] <archivist> or add a milling machine to the collection :)
[16:57:12] <djdelorie> I suppose. Three lathes and no milling machines is a little unfair... well, besides the cnc one, but I don't know if it can cut metal at all.
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[16:58:07] <IchGuckLive> hi all around the world
[16:58:21] <djdelorie> hi!
[16:58:33] <IchGuckLive> B)
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[17:19:22] <djdelorie> mhaberler: I ended up writing out separate files for each drill size. I need to debug it, axis adds a coordinate way off in space in the 3D display, but never travels there, and gets the tool wrong too. Cuts OK though.
[17:19:25] <alex4nder> hey
[17:20:35] <mhaberler> djdelorie: using which config? if affects some of my code, I'd like to reproduce it
[17:21:37] <archivist> or just not touched off properly
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[17:21:57] <djdelorie> the config for my machine. I can boot it up and get a copy if you want to look at it.
[17:22:17] <djdelorie> I have the gcode up here though
[17:23:00] <djdelorie> it must have been touched off right, because it drilled in the right spots. The extents included a point somewhere around (-17,-25) inches or so.
[17:23:37] <djdelorie> it's probably something stupid, "newbie" and all, I just need to experiment a little and figure out what it was
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[17:26:07] <mhaberler> hm, any TOOL_CHANGE_POSITION in the ini?
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[17:30:07] <djdelorie> no
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[17:31:47] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/cnc/
[17:34:21] <mhaberler> nothing obvious; what do you mean by 'gets the tools wrong' - number? offsets or something?
[17:35:12] <djdelorie> it draws the big cone and says "no tool" despite the G10 L1 line
[17:35:19] <djdelorie> the simulator seemed to get it right
[17:35:38] <mhaberler> try explicitly changing to a tool with t1m6
[17:35:49] <mhaberler> then it should reflect diameter
[17:36:21] <mhaberler> the g10 l1 changes attributes (offsets me thinks) but not tool and hence not preview
[17:37:12] <djdelorie> I'll need to test that and see where it moves the carriage to when it wants a tool change. Don't want it mashed into the table...
[17:37:41] <djdelorie> (and yes, my Z is now -4..0 ;)
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[17:38:51] <djdelorie> Rechecked Y with two not-quite-furthest-out holes, and it's dead on!
[17:39:17] <djdelorie> mhaberler: you missed the video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR1y6Eq19EU
[17:43:28] <mhaberler> do I see some error there? so far drilling, a bit oil cooled ;)
[17:45:44] <djdelorie> the H8212 micro die grinder spits out a bit of oil out the front. Most goes out the back (the clear tube). Error seems to be +- 0.005" of so across 4 inches
[17:45:58] <djdelorie> the grinder tip was cool to the touch after 12 minutes of operation though
[17:46:05] <IchGuckLive> djdelorie: why are you moving so far up ?
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[17:46:38] <djdelorie> because it was the first time I'd ever done that, I didn't know if the pcb would flex up on retract, and it gives the XY time to settle before it starts drilling
[17:47:12] <djdelorie> if that bit hits anything sideways, it will snap right off - it's only 0.0145" diameter.
[17:47:17] <IchGuckLive> ok 1.5 tread is enoph to go up
[17:47:34] <djdelorie> what is "1.5 tread" ?
[17:47:35] <tom3p> hello, where are the MD5sums for the new iso images?
[17:47:58] <IchGuckLive> if your Z tread is 3mm go up 4.5mm
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[17:48:19] <djdelorie> it's not UP that's the problem, it's DOWN. The carriage needs to stop shaking before the drill hits the pcb
[17:48:28] <IchGuckLive> djdelorie: so your out of the backlash
[17:49:15] <djdelorie> ah, that thread. 0.062" for me - Z is hardware store 3/8-16 all-thread
[17:49:18] <IchGuckLive> djdelorie: therfore pcb-gcode is using on e major direction
[17:49:36] <djdelorie> it's not pcb-gcode, its my own perl script.
[17:50:41] <IchGuckLive> ok up to you if you go one major dir then your always fixed BUt you optimise short ways
[17:51:03] <djdelorie> do you mean X and Y?
[17:51:13] <IchGuckLive> yes
[17:52:00] <djdelorie> ah. I was fiddling with those last night. I ended up with something that was a reasonable minimum-path through the hole sites. I didn't put in anything for X and Y backlash
[17:52:18] <IchGuckLive> if the main IC's are along x i optimise Y and if the ic's are along Y i optimise X
[17:53:27] <djdelorie> I did a "closest next hole" loop, followed by a "see if swapping holes helps" filter
[17:53:44] <IchGuckLive> so i go in Zig zag only one time Xor Y over the PCB
[17:53:52] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/cnc/pcbdrill2gcode
[17:54:03] <mhaberler> minimum path: that looks like its a useful tsp optimizer: http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~neto/research/lk/
[17:54:18] <djdelorie> I tried the zig-zag path, it was a LOT longer than it needed to be
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[17:55:08] <djdelorie> another thing I want to add is "if the tool path crosses itself, swap those paths"
[17:55:36] <IchGuckLive> DJ agree but as i said one axis is always in the force position no backwards move
[17:55:52] <mhaberler> give lk a try.. really easy to use. pipe coords to it, get optimzed coord sequence back
[17:56:22] <djdelorie> I'd have to test to see which axis is the better one. Might be faster to hit just off the hole so the final motion is always in the same direction
[17:56:33] <IchGuckLive> mhaberler: for drils only or even pcb mill
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[17:57:32] <mhaberler> it can optimize path sequences where end != start (like holes are end==start)
[17:58:15] <IchGuckLive> ill have alook
[18:05:26] <IchGuckLive> im off have a nice day wherever you are in the world
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[18:21:06] <JT-Shop> ssi, I got my spindle remote start/stop buttons working on the BP 7i77
[18:22:07] <Tom_itx> woot!
[18:22:56] <JT-Shop> I think I'll celebrate with a nap
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[19:30:30] <ssi> JT-Shop: grats :)
[19:30:55] <JT-Shop> I feel better now!
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[19:32:43] <ssi> no mesa box today :(
[19:32:49] <djdelorie> :-(
[19:33:29] <frysteev_> ssi: call PCW and complain!
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[20:34:14] <gene_> hey guys
[20:34:47] <djdelorie> hi
[20:35:06] <gene_> How, in .hal, do I reduce the size of the stepping in spindle speed?
[20:35:38] <cradek> I don't get what you mean, can you elaborate?
[20:35:46] <gene_> I'm only getting about 8 steps from 1% tp 100%
[20:36:06] <gene_> This is in the pwmgen settings
[20:36:09] <cradek> what kind of steps are you talking about?
[20:37:17] <gene_> In axis, click on start spindle, pulses start, at about 1% duty cycle. Click plus button once, get about 19% duty cycle
[20:38:06] <cradek> are you running software pwmgen? if so you have to expect some granularity because the output can only change on the base period. if you need more levels of pwm output, you have to decrease the frequency
[20:38:37] <djdelorie> or add hardware :-)
[20:38:41] <gene_> That IIRC is currently set at 100, whatever that means
[20:39:05] <cradek> did you check out the pwmgen manpage? you might be interested in dither-pwm and pwm-freq settings
[20:39:06] <gene_> lemme go get that line of the .hal
[20:41:56] <gene_> stanza looks like this ,but I didn't generate it, and stepconfig won't run
[20:42:06] <gene_> net spindle-cmd <= motion.spindle-speed-out => pwmgen.0.value
[20:42:07] <gene_> net spindle-enable <= motion.spindle-on => pwmgen.0.enable
[20:42:09] <gene_> net spindle-pwm <= pwmgen.0.pwm
[20:42:10] <gene_> setp pwmgen.0.pwm-freq 100.0
[20:42:12] <gene_> setp pwmgen.0.scale 1506.32911392
[20:42:13] <gene_> setp pwmgen.0.offset 0.00336134453782
[20:42:15] <gene_> setp pwmgen.0.dither-pwm true
[20:42:16] <gene_> net spindle-ccw <= motion.spindle-reverse
[20:42:59] <micges> gene_: spindle speed is changes +-100 when you hit + or - button in Axis
[20:43:03] <micges> it is hardcoded
[20:43:34] <cradek> gene_: http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/pwmgen.9.html
[20:43:42] <gene_> So the scale becomes the step size then?
[20:43:42] <Thetawaves> in a related vein, how would i get linuxcnc to execute a shell command to set tool speed in rpm?
[20:44:24] <cradek> Thetawaves: you'd have to write a userland hal component that monitors the commanded spindle speed pin.
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[20:46:42] <cradek> gene_: the spindle speed command is in RPM. it's up to you to set pwmgen's parameters to give you the output you need for whatever your spindle expects
[20:49:48] <gene_> I was going by that, and I expect to have to play with it once I get all this on the lathe and can read spindle speed with the encoder I built
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[20:50:17] <gene_> This is just playing on the test bench as I assemble stuff
[20:51:07] <gene_> larger SCALE = smaller steps, somewhat counter-intuitive :)
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[20:52:10] <gene_> Now, how can I restrict the pwmgen to a maximum of 99%?
[20:52:27] <cradek> by reading the manpage at the above link
[20:53:07] <gene_> whiuch I moved to another screen, thanks Chris I'll go read up :)
[20:53:44] <cradek> it's configurable in every imaginable way :-)
[20:55:48] <Jymmm> Only 50% max in leap years!
[20:57:00] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[20:57:13] <Jymmm> laters DJ9DJ
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[21:22:33] <alex4nder> hey
[21:23:54] <micges> hi
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[21:58:44] <JT-Shop> does G93 work properly with a SCARA type machine?
[21:59:04] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=18&id=18927#18936
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[22:14:44] <alex4nder> yoh
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[22:16:14] <Oscar> Hi, some body knows were can i find some examples of modbus RTU on classicladder?
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[22:24:37] <KimK> <join>Heydoesanybodyhaveananswertomyquestion?<quit>
[22:25:22] <JT-Shop> LOL
[22:27:15] <KimK> Hi JT, how's it going?
[22:30:34] <JT-Shop> Hi Kim, going good a bit hot for this time of year
[22:31:23] <JT-Shop> finally got past using two #303 cans and a string to connect to the internet :)
[22:32:05] * JT-Shop is off to till my neighbors garden
[22:35:05] <KimK> JT-Shop: Excellent! Then quad congrats are due you: satellite internet, 2.5.0 docs, spindle start/stop buttons, and your gloves saving your thumb! Thanks for all your hard work on the docs, sorry I couldn't help finish the mess I started.
[22:43:44] <JT-Shop> np, actually the gloves didn't do much to slow down the cut off wheel... only nervous reaction saved my finger iI think
[22:44:19] * JT-Shop waits for the battery charger to do its magic...
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[23:00:13] <ssi> I really need to come up with some cam
[23:00:18] <ssi> I keep ruining things with manual gcode :(
[23:00:53] <ssi> just accidentally parted off a .750" diameter barrel with a carbide VNMG tool at 2ipm because I mixed up a Z and an X
[23:00:56] <ssi> hahahaha
[23:00:57] <archivist> cut air first
[23:01:06] <ssi> I mean manual as in conversational
[23:01:10] <ssi> not handwritten programs
[23:04:11] <alex4nder> ssi: yah, seriously
[23:04:17] <alex4nder> after I'm done with my enclosure.. it's CAM time
[23:04:27] <ssi> alex4nder: hurry up i need it! :D
[23:04:44] <ssi> I'm starting to think along the lines of just a simple little command line program that will do... something
[23:04:47] <ssi> I don't know what yet though :(
[23:06:25] <alex4nder> that's what I've written
[23:06:32] <ssi> oh yea?
[23:06:44] <alex4nder> pocket.py trigger_pocket.py collet_holder.py
[23:07:02] <alex4nder> a bunch of macros
[23:07:09] <alex4nder> so I just create pockets and whatever where I want them
[23:07:12] <ssi> mill cam?
[23:07:38] <alex4nder> in this case, yah
[23:07:49] <ssi> :'(
[23:07:58] <ssi> mill cam is a dime a dozen
[23:08:11] <alex4nder> it's not like lathe cam is a paradigm shift
[23:08:42] <ssi> seems like it is
[23:09:31] <alex4nder> you could write a conversational lathe toolkit in a couple hours
[23:10:11] <ssi> I hope so
[23:10:21] <ssi> so where should I start
[23:10:33] <alex4nder> start with the common operations you want to perfrom
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[23:10:45] <alex4nder> and then turn them into "words" and merge those "words" into "sentences"
[23:10:49] <ssi> OD and facing are simple enough
[23:10:52] <ssi> it's profiling that I'm not sure about
[23:11:07] <ssi> cause a) how do you specify the profile
[23:11:20] <ssi> b) what do you do about backcuts that the tool doesn't have clearance for
[23:13:17] <alex4nder> well that's where the big money is spent
[23:13:53] <alex4nder> if your profile is easily described in a parametric form, then you could implement some really basic peel milling on this form
[23:14:02] <alex4nder> even if you specified it with a raster, you could do some interesting scripting with it
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[23:20:03] <JT-Shop> ssi, you got ngcgui working yet?
[23:20:12] <ssi> JT-Shop: I've used it for ages on the little lathe
[23:20:16] <ssi> it's not setup on the hardinge yet
[23:21:01] <JT-Shop> b) use a different tool!
[23:21:14] <JT-Shop> sorry AC is borked...
[23:21:43] * JT-Shop grabs some nutdrivers and goes to take it apart...
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[23:33:00] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: the new AC is ?
[23:35:04] <jthornton> Jymmm, fan motor or control, unsure atm which is bad... I replaced the cap this morning and it ran all day...
[23:35:27] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: new unit or old?
[23:35:58] <Jymmm> jthornton: new unit or old?
[23:45:15] <JT-Shop> the air handler and heater part are what I installed when I built the house
[23:45:32] <Jymmm> oh the house, I thought the garage or shop AC
[23:45:39] <Jymmm> window unit
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[23:50:10] <jthornton> I would not be worried about the shop or garage...
[23:50:33] <jthornton> and the winner is the motor! smells like burnt toast gone bad
[23:50:55] <jthornton> good thing I have at least 2 to pick from left over from another life
[23:51:00] <Jymmm> jthornton: Well, as long at the sealed part is in good order, you'll be good.
[23:51:27] <jthornton> yea, the only issue is the blower motor
[23:51:45] <Jymmm> jthornton: MIL's make good blowers!!!
[23:51:54] <jthornton> LOL
[23:52:03] <Tom_itx> that's hot air though
[23:52:10] <Jymmm> put all that hot air to good use!
[23:52:14] <jthornton> well not my MIL!
[23:52:23] <jthornton> she is very nice to me
[23:52:32] <Jymmm> jthornton: show her the DMV letter...
[23:52:58] <jthornton> she got it first... and that is over with now and almost forgotten...
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[23:53:21] <Jymmm> jthornton: No, I mean whenever you need a blast of hot air, show her the letter
[23:53:25] * jthornton is off to the shop to pick out a new motor
[23:53:40] <Jymmm> jthornton: THE BLUE ONE! PICK THE BLUE ONE!
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[23:54:23] <djdelorie> THEY'RE ALL BLUE!!!!!
[23:54:44] <Jymmm> the Blue one with stars and bunnies on it!
[23:54:59] <djdelorie> Captain Ameribunny ?
[23:55:25] <Jymmm> Jessica Rabbit's sister!
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